Heart of Yavimaya replacement timing

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Situation A.  I have on the battlefield a , a Prismatic Omen, a Forest, but no other lands.  I play a Heart of Yavimaya, returning the Forest. Does the Dandân survive?  Why or why not?

Assuming the answer is that the Dandân dies, here's a more tricky variant.

Situation B.  I have on the battlefield a Dandân, a Prismatic Omen, two Mountains and one Forest but no other lands. I now cast a Scapeshift, when it resolves I sacrifice the two Mountains to it, and find a Swamp and a Heart of Yavimaya, then choose to sacrifice the Forest to the Heart.  Does the Dandân survive?

(I've recently asked this on irc but we aren't sure about the solution so please let me ask it here too.)

Situation A.  I have on the battlefield a , a Prismatic Omen, a Forest, but no other lands.  I play a Heart of Yavimaya, returning the Forest. Does the Dandân survive?  Why or why not?

Assuming the answer is that the Dandân dies, here's a more tricky variant.

Situation B.  I have on the battlefield a Dandân, a Prismatic Omen, two Mountains and one Forest but no other lands. I now cast a Scapeshift, when it resolves I sacrifice the two Mountains to it, and find a Swamp and a Heart of Yavimaya, then choose to sacrifice the Forest to the Heart.  Does the Dandân survive?

(I've recently asked this on irc but we aren't sure about the solution so please let me ask it here too.)


You keep the fish.
The event "Heart of Yavimaya enters the battlefield" becomes "sacrifice a forest, if you do, heart of yavimaya enters the battlefield"
Say you do; Heart of yavimaya enters the battlefield and becomes, amongst other things, an Island due to the Omen's effect.
Dandan then goes "oh, hey, ann event just happened; is it relevant to me?", sees that there is still an Island under your control and doesn't trigger.

Again, yes. All of that is basially one big event.
ΦΦΦΦΦ

 


I'm not sure I agree or not.


You seem to describe this situation from the point of view of State-Based-Actions, which do not care about «unstable» situations occuring during resolutions. But this case is different.
(you knew that, of course)


's ability is triggered: il WILL trigger (and demand sacrifice) if, at any point in time, the player controls no Island.

This includes having no Island in the process of any single happening: even if the absence of Island happens over a very short duration, the Fish still dies.

And remember: actions listed on cards are to be taken one at a time, in the written order.


So...

The event is : "Sacrifice a Forest and put Heart of Yavimaya onto the battlefield."

My question is:

Isn't there a very short moment between the Forest leaving and HoY entering?
Isn't there a point in time where the player controls no Island?


As short as it can be, such a moment is all that's needed to trigger the Fish.



So, is there?

(I don't know! Do you?)
(OK, prove it!)





(I don't know! Do you?)


Situation A: I think the fish is sacrificed.
Situation B: I think you keep the fish.

(OK, prove it!)

OK here it goes....

The relevant rule for this situation:

603.8. Some triggered abilities trigger when a game state (such as a player controlling no permanents of a particular card type) is true, rather than triggering when an event occurs. These abilities trigger as soon as the game state matches the condition. They’ll go onto the stack at the next available opportunity. These are called state triggers . (Note that state triggers aren’t the same as state-basedactions.) A state-triggered ability doesn’t trigger again until the ability has resolved, has beenvcountered, or has otherwise left the stack. Then, if the object with the ability is still in the same zone and the game state still matches its trigger condition, the ability will trigger again.



This means that if at any time the player controls no islands, the 's triggered ability becomes triggered and waits until the next time a player would receive priority to go onto the stack.

The oracle ruling for Heart of Yavimaya:
You have to sacrifice a forest before this card is put onto the battlefield, and no matter how it is put onto the battlefield. (bolding mine)

Therefore in Situation A there is a point in time when the player controls no islands:  after he sacrifices the forest, and before the Heart enters the battlefield. It is at this time that Dandân's ability would trigger. After the Heart enters the battlefield the Dandan's triggered ability would go upon the stack, and resolve after players pass priority.

In Situation B, the swamp enters the battlefield and immediately becomes all other land types. Simultaneously the player chooses to sacrifice  sacrifices [Edit: the player can't "choose" to sacrifice it] the forest, and then the Heart enters the battlefield. Because there is no time period in situation B where the player controls no islands, Dandân's ability does not trigger.

That is the best I can come up with.
MTG Rules Advisor
I think Chaikov is right, at least in the first scenario; Dandan's ability will trigger.

Dandan's ability is a state-based trigger that looks for a gamestate matching the trigger condition. So the question is, is there a gamestate between the sacrifice of the Forest and the entry of Heart of Yavimaya?

The answer is yes.

You can consider the game to be a series of gamestates linked by events; it's a bit like old cinema films in that respect. When an event occurs, it is really the transformation of one gamestate into another, just as two adjacent frames of a film show two frozen scenes that you can compare, identifying the differences between them.

In Magic, when an event is about to happen, you determine what the event is, then perform it. Replacement and prevention effects get applied in the "window" where you are working out what the next event is.

Heart of Yavimaya's first ability reads as follows.
If Heart of Yavimaya would enter the battlefield, sacrifice a Forest instead. If you do, put Heart of Yavimaya onto the battlefield. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard.

This ability watches for the Heart to enter the battlefield, and replaces the event "Heart of Yavimaya enters the battlefield."

When you want to know how many discrete actions are present in an instruction, count the number of separate verbs in the instruction. For Heart of Yavimaya, they are :

  1. Sacrifice a forest

  2. Put HoY (onto the battlefield or into its owner's graveyard.)

That means the replacement effect replaces one action with two. So you perform the first, creating a new gamestate, then work out what the second action is and perform that. Consequently there is a gamestate after the Forest is sacrificed and before the HoY enters the battlefield  in which there is no Island (or any other land) controlled by Dandan's controller.

In the first scenario, the OP stated that he controls no other lands; therefore in the gamestate after he sacrifices the Forest, he controls no lands and Dandan will trigger.

There's another complication with the second scenario, and that is well delineated by EternalHostility.
In Situation B, the swamp enters the battlefield and immediately becomes all other land types. Simultaneously the player chooses to sacrifice the forest, and then the Heart enters the battlefield. Because there is no time period in situation B where the player controls no islands, Dandân's ability does not trigger.

When you come to put the lands on the battlefield, what does HoY's replacement transform the action "Put the cards searched out onto the battlefield" into? Is it "Sacrifice a Forest," or "Put all cards searched out except HoY onto the battlefield and sacrifice a Forest"?

On reflection I think it's the latter. I can't see any reason why the replacement effect generated by HoY could or should hold up the movement of other lands found by Scapeshift. However, I'd be interested to learn if I'm right.
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EDIT March 10: Wrong answer. See below.

Situation A.  I have on the battlefield a , a Prismatic Omen, a Forest, but no other lands.  I play a Heart of Yavimaya, returning the Forest. Does the Dandân survive?  Why or why not?

Assuming the answer is that the Dandân dies, here's a more tricky variant.

Situation B.  I have on the battlefield a Dandân, a Prismatic Omen, two Mountains and one Forest but no other lands. I now cast a Scapeshift, when it resolves I sacrifice the two Mountains to it, and find a Swamp and a Heart of Yavimaya, then choose to sacrifice the Forest to the Heart.  Does the Dandân survive?

dies in both scenarios.

EternalHostility is mostly correct about the justifications, but draws the wrong conclusion for the second sceanrio.

There's also this rule:
603.2. Whenever a game event or game state matches a triggered ability's trigger event, that ability automatically triggers. The ability doesn't do anything at this point.

Chaikov already alluded to it; it means that a trigger will fire even if its condition is only met at a time state-based actions aren't checked and performed, i.e. even in the middle of something else.

First scenario...
Normally, playing a land results in you putting that land on the battlefield. In this case, Heart of Yavimaya's own replacement effect changes the event [put Heart onto the battlefield] to [sacrifice a Forest, and put Heart onto the battlefield]. These are two distinct actions that happen sequentially: you first sacrifice a Forest, then you put HoY onto the battlefield. Because they happen sequentially there is a moment in which you don't control an Island, so 's ability triggers and will go on the stack when you would get priority after putting Heart of Yavimaya onto the battlefield.

Second scenario:
This works exactly the same as the same. The initial event is [put Swamp and Heart onto the battlefield]; Heart of Yavimaya's replacement effect changes that to [sacrifice a Forest, and put Swamp and Heart onto the Battlefield].
Scapeshift tells you to put the searched for lands onto the battlefield simultaneously, and Heart's replacement effect doesn't change that. Even with the replacement effect, they still enter the battlefield simultaneously, so you sacrifice the forest before the two new lands enter, so again there's a moment in time when you control no Island, so ability triggers.

EDIT:
I see Merestil's point, but I disagree. Without really being able to point to anything that nacks me up, unfortunately.

DCI Lvl 2 Judge

Thanks for the clarification, GoblinBasar and Merestil. Since HoY's Oracle Text says:
 
If Heart of Yavimaya would enter the battlefield, sacrifice a Forest instead. If you do, put Heart of Yavimaya onto the battlefield. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard.

I was thinking the events went something like this:

[Scapeshift resolves, player sacrifices 2 lands and finds a swamp and HoY in his library] then

 1: Put [the selected lands] onto the battlefield tapped. 
 2: Shuffle Library

Would be changed to:
 
1a: Put [the selected lands] except HoY onto the battlefield tapped and sacrifice a forest 
1b: If a forest was sacrificed put HoY onto the battlefield,  If it wasn't put HoY into it's owners graveyard 
 2: Shuffle Library

I looked for some clarification in the rules but could not find any.  Can you [or anyone] shed some additional light on why the forest sacrifice isn't simultaneous with the swamp entering the battlefield?

I have an additional question:

In Situation B, When the Heart enters the battlefield, does it enter tapped or untapped?

I would say that it would enter untapped, because the event "Put Heart of Yavimaya onto the battlefield tapped" is replaced with "Sacrifice a Forest".  Since the forest is available, it is sacrificed, and Yavimaya then enters the battlefield (as a result of the forest sacrifice, not the Scapeshift), untapped.    

Is this correct?






MTG Rules Advisor
I was thinking the events went something like this:

[Scapeshift resolves, player sacrifices 2 lands and finds a swamp and HoY in his library] then

 1: Put [the selected lands] onto the battlefield tapped. 
 2: Shuffle Library

would be changed to:
 
1a: "Put [the selected lands] except HoY onto the battlefield tapped and sacrifice a forest" 
1b: If a forest was sacrificed put HoY onto the battlefield,  If it wasn't put HoY into it's owners graveyard" 
 2: Shuffle Library

I looked for some clarification in the rules but could not find any.  Can you [or anyone] shed some additional light on why the forest sacrifice isn't simultaneous with the swamp entering the battlefield?

I know I can't; not being a Rules Adviser or Judge I don't have access to the Judge lists. Maybe I should requalify.

I have an additional question:

In Situation B, When the Heart enters the battlefield, does it enter tapped or untapped?

I would say that it would enter untapped, because the event "Put Heart of Yavimaya onto the battlefield tapped" is replaced with "Sacrifice a Forest".  Since the forest is available, it is sacrificed, and Yavimaya then enters the battlefield (as a result of the forest sacrifice, not the Scapeshift), untapped.    

Is this correct?

No, it enters tapped.

After the forst is sacrificed, the next event is to put the HoY onto the battlefield. Since this a discrete event, you look for replacement effects that might apply to the HoY entering the battlefield, other than HoY's own effect (which has already applied.) Unfortunately you find one. Any ability which says you put something on the battlefield tapped generates a replacement effect. Since this has not applied to HoY, it gets applied.

ETA. Would it though? I need to think this through.
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EDIT March 10: Wrong answer. See below.

Thanks for the clarification, GoblinBasar and Merestil. Since HoY's Oracle Text says:
 
If Heart of Yavimaya would enter the battlefield, sacrifice a Forest instead. If you do, put Heart of Yavimaya onto the battlefield. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard.

I was thinking the events went something like this:

[Scapeshift resolves, player sacrifices 2 lands and finds a swamp and HoY in his library] then

 1: Put [the selected lands] onto the battlefield tapped. 
 2: Shuffle Library

would be changed to:
 
1a: "Put [the selected lands] except HoY onto the battlefield tapped and sacrifice a forest" 
1b: If a forest was sacrificed put HoY onto the battlefield,  If it wasn't put HoY into it's owners graveyard" 
 2: Shuffle Library

I looked for some clarification in the rules but could not find any.  Can you [or anyone] shed some additional light on why the forest sacrifice isn't simultaneous with the swamp entering the battlefield?

No, unfortunately I can't point to hard and fast evidence. I'll share my thoughts, though.
First, Scapeshift tells you to put all all the land cards you found onto the battlefield as one big action, so I read the event as [put (all land cards) onto the battlefield] rather than as [put one land card onto the battlefield and put the second land card onto the battlefield and ...]. Therefor, if something needs to happen before one particular of those land cards can enter the battlefield, it necessarily has to happen before all land cards can enter the battlefield.
Second, consider the following case: your opponent controls a Tunnel Ignus; you have not had a land enter the battlefield under your control this turn. You cast and resolve Scapeshift, finding two Swamps. You put both Swamps onto the battlefield simultaneously; immediately afterwards, Tunnel Ignus sees that two lands entered the battlefield, and that for each of those two lands, you had another land enter the battlefield under your control, so Ignus will trigger twice, resulting in 6 damage to you.
Now substitute Heart of Yavimaya for one of the Swamps. By your and Merestil's interpretation, Ignus would trigger only once, because the Swamp and the Heart enter one after the other.

As I said, this (and especially the Ignus interaction) is no proof that my interpretation is correct.

DCI Lvl 2 Judge

Situation A:

Game state (before Heart of Yavimaya entering the battlefield) --> Event (Heart of Yavimaya enters the battlefield) --> Game state (Heart of Yavimaya is on the battlefield).

State triggers trigger on particular game states, not on events. There is no game state where no island is on the battlefield, so Dandân survives.



Situation B:

Game state (before sacrificing lands) --> Event (Sacrifice any number of lands) --> Game state (before searching lands) --> Event (Search your library for that many land cards, put them onto the battlefield tapped) --> Game state (after searching lands).

Same that situation A. Dandân survives.

Edit: I'm not so sure about situation B, because I'm not certain that "Search your library for that many land cards" and "put them onto the battlefield tapped" are one event.
EDIT March 10: Wrong answer. See below.

Situation A:

Game state (before Heart of Yavimaya entering the battlefield) --> Event (Forest is sacrificed) --> Game state (Forest is gone, Heart is not yet there) --> Event (Heart of Yavimaya enters the battlefield) --> Game state (Heart of Yavimaya is on the battlefield).

State triggers trigger on particular game states, not on events. There is no game state where no island is on the battlefield, so Dandân survives.

Fixed.
Correct, state triggers don't trigger on events. But yes, there is a game state with no lands in between the Forest being sacced and Heart entering the battlefield. The actions of "saccing a Forest" and "putting Heart onto the battlefield" happen sequentially, which necessarily means that there has to be a moment when one action already has happened but the other has not happened yet.

Situation B:

Game state (before sacrificing lands) --> Event (Sacrifice any number of lands) --> Game state (before searching lands) --> Event (Search your library for that many land cards, put them onto the battlefield tapped) --> Game state (after searching lands).

Same that situation A. Dandân survives.

Edit: I'm not so sure about situation B, because I'm not certain that "Search your library for that many land cards" and "put them onto the battlefield tapped" are one event.

Same mistake as above. The reason why Dandan might actually end up surviving here is because it's not entirely certain that my interpretation of how the replacement effect works here is correct.

DCI Lvl 2 Judge

After thinking about it more, I think I was wrong and GoblinBasar is correct. The wording of Heart of Yavimaya ("If Heart of Yavimaya would enter the battlefield, sacrifice a Forest instead. If you do, put Heart of Yavimaya onto the battlefield. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard.") is obviously secuential, and there are precedents for a replacement effect splitting an event in several ones.
Hm. Embarrassing. It turns out Mr_Rose's initial answer was correct.

Dandan won't trigger in either situation, and you get to keep it. I posted the question on the MTGRULES-L mailing list, and the answer was that, essentially, the sacrifice of the Forest and Heart's entering the battlefield are simultaneous.

Here's Daniel's reply on the list:
Show

Date:         Thu, 10 Mar 2011 00:30:37 +0100
Reply-To: MTGRules-L <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: MTGRules-L <[log in to unmask]>
From: Daniel Kitachewsky <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Replacement effects and simultaneous happenings
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1


2011/3/8 Sebastian Reinfeldt <[log in to unmask]>:
> Hello,
>
> imagine this setup: I control Dandan, Breeding Pool, two Mountains, and
> nothing else. I cast Scapeshift, and when it resolves, I sac the two
> Mountains and search my library for an Island and a Heart of Yavimaya. When
> putting them onto the battlefield, I choose to sac the Breeding Pool for
> Heart of Yavimaya's replacement effect. Does Dandan's ability trigger or
> not?
> I guess the question is about how Heart of Yavimaya's replacement effect
> interacts with the simultaneousness of putting two lands onto the
> battlefield. Does the original event of Scapeshift's [put the searched-for
> lands onto the battlefield simultaneously] get changed to [sac a Forest,
> then put the two lands onto the battlefield simultaneously] or to [sac a
> Forest and simultaneously put all lands other than Heart of Yavimaya onto
> the battlefield, then put Heart of Yavemaya onto the battlefield]? And why?
> Is there anything in the CompRules that I missed? Or is it "just"
> interpreting/ruling how it should be?
>
Dandan's ability won't trigger.

There is no "in-between" moment in the middle of the resolution of
Heart of Yavimaya's replacement effect. First, the results of the
replacement effect are determined, then the modified event happens as
a single atom.

Here, the original event that's being replaced is "Island enters the
battlefield, Heart of Yavimaya enters the battlefield." This event is
modified into "Island enters the battlefield, sacrifice Breeding Pool,
Heart of Yavimaya enters the battlefield." Then the event happens.

The moment before, you controlled a Breeding Pool, and the moment
after, you control an Island and a Heart of Yavimaya. Dandan's ability
never triggers.

Daniel Kitachewsky
L3, Paris, France
MTGRules-L Netrep

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EDIT:
I also double-checked, and confirmed, that the first scenario works exactly the same.

DCI Lvl 2 Judge

I disagree with that answer; it flies in the face of every other time we give the answer 'you do things in the order written.' It says to do something, and if you do, do something else. The game cannot check that you've already done something if you're doing it at the same time. If you have not done it yet, then 'if you do' isn't true, and thus you won't put the Heart into play.
MTG Rules Advisor Mirrodin_Loyalty.png

 


I agree with Kedar to disagree with GoblinBasar, for two more reasons:



1) This «ruling» DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS Tethered Griffin's rulings.
...and Covetous Dragon, Emperor Crocodile...




2) The scenario you submitted to Daniel is VERY different: at NO TIME is there a point where no Island is on the Field.


Look again:

Daniel is correct (of course) by saying the final replaced event becomes:
"Island enters the battlefield, sacrifice Breeding Pool, Heart of Yavimaya enters the battlefield."

As can obviously be seen, the FIRST action is to put an additional Island in play. Sacrificing Breeding Pool can then be done at no risk to



You say you «double-checked»?
I'd like to SEE what you actually asked and what has been answered: I'm gonna need more before I get convinced.



 

1) This «ruling» DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS Tethered Griffin's rulings.

Where is the contradiction between Daniel Kitachewsky's ruling and tethered griffin's ruling?


  • Tethered griffin's ruling correctly says that if there is any moment, no matter how brief, where you don't control an enchantment, the ability gets triggered. It is also be true that if no such moment exists, then the ability doesn't trigger.

  • Daniel is very explicit that no such moment exists: "There is no 'in-between' moment [...] The moment before, you controlled a Breeding Pool, and the moment after, you control an Island and a Heart of Yavimaya."


Now, you might disagree with Daniel's claim that no such moment exists, but the statement he made does not contradict the griffin's ruling.




I was refering to GoblinBasar's (incorrect) ruling on the current situation, not to Daniel's correct ruling on a different situation.



I was refering to GoblinBasar's (incorrect) ruling on the current situation, not to Daniel's correct ruling on a different situation.


My mistake then.
I disagree with that answer; it flies in the face of every other time we give the answer 'you do things in the order written.' It says to do something, and if you do, do something else. The game cannot check that you've already done something if you're doing it at the same time. If you have not done it yet, then 'if you do' isn't true, and thus you won't put the Heart into play.

Agreed. Apparently, for replacement effects, you can decide to do it, then do both simultaneously. I'll have to ask Daniel about that again.

2) The scenario you submitted to Daniel is VERY different: 

How so? I tried to make the scenario the same (except that I wanted to leave out Prismatic Omen so as not to add another card into the scenario); where exactly do the OP's and my scenario differ in relevant details? In both scenarios there is an Island and Heart being brought in by Scapeshift, and in both scenarios there is only one land on the battlefield, which is both an island and a forest, and in both scenarios this land is sacrificed to satisfy Heart's replacement effect.

Daniel is correct (of course) by saying the final replaced event becomes:
"Island enters the battlefield, sacrifice Breeding Pool, Heart of Yavimaya enters the battlefield."

As can obviously be seen, the FIRST action is to put an additional Island in play. Sacrificing Breeding Pool can then be done at no risk to

Although Daniel doesn't explicitly say so, those three actions have to be simultaneous. You do agree that in the original event [put Island on battlefield, put Heart on battlefield] both actions are simultaneous, don't you? If we accept that, then how can, all of a sudden, one of those actions be completely moved to after the other? (I know such a clause exists for drawing cards as a result of a replacement effect, but I'm not aware of a similar rule for other cases.)

The way I see it, the original [put both Island and Heart onto battlefield] can turn into one of three possibilities:
1. [sac Pool and simultaneously put Island and Heart onto battlefield]
2. [sac Pool and simultaneously put Island onto battlefield; then put Heart onto battlefield]
3. [sac Pool; then put Heart and Island onto battlefield together]
Daniel obviously ruled that it's 1.


You say you «double-checked»?
I'd like to SEE what you actually asked and what has been answered: I'm gonna need more before I get convinced.

my follow-up mail
Ok, then I have a follow-up question.

Suppose I again control Dandan, Prismatic Omen, Forest (which is also an
island due to Omen), and nothing else. I now play Heart of Yavimaya from
my hand, and decide to sacrifice Forest for Heart's replacement effect.
Does Dandan's ability trigger?

I thought the answer is a clear "yes", but your reply to my first
question makes me doubt that.

My reasoning was: we (after applying Heart's replacement effect) go from
(game state: Dandan and an island on the battlefield) -> event: sac
Forest -> (game state: Dandan and no island on the battlefield; Dandan
triggers) -> event: Heart enters battlefield (as an island due to
Omen)-> (game state: Dandan and an island on the battlefield; Dandan's
trigger on the stack).

Based on your answer below, I'd conclude that we actually go: (game
state: Dandan and an island on battlefield) -> event: sac Forest; put
Heart on battlefield -> (game state: Dandan and an island (Heart due to
Omen) on battlefield).
Is that correct?

The wording of the replacement effect suggests that I have to sac a
Forest first, _before_ Heart actually enters the battlefield. Your
answer suggests, though, that I only make the _choice_ to sac a Forest
before Heart enters, then Heart's entering and sacrificing the Forest
actually happen simultaneously. Is that correct?
Daniel's answer
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 14:26:10 +0100
Reply-To: MTGRules-L <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:
MTGRules-L <[log in to unmask]>
From:
Daniel Kitachewsky <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:
Re: Replacement effects and simultaneous happenings

Hi, It's essentially the same situation: there is no in-between moment in the middle of applying the replacement effect. Dandan only sees the game state juste before the event and just after it, so its ability won't trigger.

Daniel Kitachewsky
L3, Paris, France
MTGRules-L Netrep

Please read the list protocol before posting to this list:
* wiki.dcifamily.org/index.php/Judge_List_...

DCI Lvl 2 Judge

But replacement effects, even if they don't involve drawing cards, can result in several different events: Land Equilibrium. It's obvious with Land Equilibrium because it says "then", but there is no reason to think that other replacement effects that don't use "then" are always simultaneous, they should follow the same rules than resolving normal spells and abilities.

Edit: Lich's Mirror also uses "then".
But replacement effects, even if they don't involve drawing cards, can result in several different events: Land Equilibrium. It's obvious with Land Equilibrium because it says "then", but there is no reason to think that other replacement effects that don't use "then" are always simultaneous, they should follow the same rules than resolving normal spells and abilities.

I'm not arguin that replacement effect can never introduce sequentuality. I'm arguing that we're starting with an event

[do A and B]

(remember, Scapshift puts all lands onto the battlefield simultaneously); now we replace B with "C then D". There is no reason to assume that the modified event becomes

[do A then do C then D].

If it could become that, it could, with equal justfication, become

[do C then D then do A].

I'm arguing that, if the original actions, or sub-events, were simultaneous,  the remaining original sub-event has to be simultaneous with at least one of the two new sub-events. So the new event would have to be

[do A and C, then D], or
[do C, then A and D].

Unless we can "stretch" the remaining original sub-event so that both new events can happen simultaneous with the old event:

[do A and, simultaneously, (C then D)].

Or, simply, all three sub-events happen simultaneously. Although I like that variant the least.

DCI Lvl 2 Judge

I've thought about it, and I also believe the ruling is in error.

It contradicts the ruling on Heart of Yavimaya.
You have to sacrifice a forest before this card is put into play, and no matter how it is put into play. [D'Angelo 1999/11/01]

Please note the word "before." That clearly implies sequential actions with a gamestate between them.

There's also Chains opf Mephistopheles, which does the same basic thing, replacing one action with two, (assuming the player has at least one card in hand).. The ruling there states :
9/16/2007: Here's what happens when Chains of Mephistopheles replaces a player's draw: -- If that player has at least one card in his or her hand, he or she discards a card and then draws a card. -- If that player's hand is empty, he or she puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard. The player doesn't draw a card at all.

Bolding mine. The discard and draw are sequential, not simultaneous.
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I'm not arguin that replacement effect can never introduce sequentuality. I'm arguing that we're starting with an event

[do A and B]

(remember, Scapshift puts all lands onto the battlefield simultaneously); now we replace B with "C then D". There is no reason to assume that the modified event becomes

[do A then do C then D].

If it could become that, it could, with equal justfication, become

[do C then D then do A].

I'm arguing that, if the original actions, or sub-events, were simultaneous,  the remaining original sub-event has to be simultaneous with at least one of the two new sub-events. So the new event would have to be

[do A and C, then D], or
[do C, then A and D].

Unless we can "stretch" the remaining original sub-event so that both new events can happen simultaneous with the old event:

[do A and, simultaneously, (C then D)].

Or, simply, all three sub-events happen simultaneously. Although I like that variant the least.




That could explain situation B, but not A unless we assume that replacement effects always happens simultaneously. But wouldn't that contradict some rulings about Lich's Mirror?

If I get it right, this means the two actions prescribed by HoY are performed simultaneously:

-sacrifice a Forest
-put HoY on the Field


The gamestate moves from:

a) An Island-Forest on Field

to

b) No Island-Forest on Field / One Heart-of-Yavimaya-Island on Field


This way, there is no gamestate, no point in time, where no Island would be on the Field, and Dandan has no reason to trigger.


Agreed?



Agreed?




No. It doesn't matter if, before the event and after the event, there's an Island on the 'field; it only matters if, at any time (including the course of other events), there are no Islands on the 'field. And, based on other rulings and how things have been ruled in the past in the general scenario, there is a time when there are no Islands on the field, in the scenario we're discussing, so the trigger should go off. The fact that it's been answered otherwise is, in my opinion, wrong; I don't care if the guy's an L3, I'll take a whole history of rulings that would indicate something over one person's answer.
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there is no time that there is no island on the field
proud member of the 2011 community team
there is no time that there is no island on the field



I'm aware that's what the guy said in the email answer, as I'm also part of that mailing list. My point is that I disagree, because it is contradictory to every other ruling given for cards that say 'Action A. If you do, Action B.'

EDIT: That is, while the ruling is technically correct for the email-based question, the ruling is incorrect (IMHO) for the question posed in the OP of this thread, but some people think it works due to faulty logic as to why the ruling is correct in regard to the email-based question. In the email based question, there was another Island coming into play at the same time, so it was automatically there the whole time. The question of which we're speaking involves no island coming into play with HoY, and the only Island on the field being sacrificed to HoY (which is going to be an island, itself, due to Prismatic Omen or something of similar nature).

The way I see it, based on how rulings of 'A. If you do, B.' work, is that the trigger will go off, because there will be a split second when you control no Islands. 
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EDIT: That is, while the ruling is technically correct for the email-based question, the ruling is incorrect (IMHO) for the question posed in the OP of this thread, but some people think it works due to faulty logic as to why the ruling is correct in regard to the email-based question. In the email based question, there was another Island coming into play at the same time, so it was automatically there the whole time. The question of which we're speaking involves no island coming into play with HoY, and the only Island on the field being sacrificed to HoY (which is going to be an island, itself, due to Prismatic Omen or something of similar nature).


The Swamp in the OP will also be an island due to Prismatic Omen.  There's no relevant difference between question B in the original post and the first question asked on MTGRULES-L.

Seems my first impression was the correct one: I don't know if I agree or not!

I'm aware that's what the guy said in the email answer, as I'm also part of that mailing list. My point is that I disagree, because it is contradictory to every other ruling given for cards that say 'Action A. If you do, Action B.' 



Help us: please give us references to some of those other rulings.




That is, while the ruling is technically correct for the email-based question, the ruling is incorrect for the question posed in the OP of this thread, but some people think it works due to faulty logic as to why the ruling is correct in regard to the email-based question. 



That was my suspicion also, which is why I asked GoblinBasar to confirm, which he did:

Show

Suppose I again control Dandan, Prismatic Omen, Forest, and nothing else.

I now play Heart of Yavimaya from my hand, and decide to sacrifice Forest for Heart's replacement effect.

Does Dandan's ability trigger?

The wording of the replacement effect suggests that I have to sac a Forest first, before Heart actually enters the battlefield. Your answer suggests, though, that I only make the choice to sac a Forest before Heart enters, then Heart's entering and sacrificing the Forest actually happen simultaneously. Is that correct?

GoblinBasar



It's essentially the same situation: there is no in-between moment in the middle of applying the replacement effect. Dandan only sees the game state juste before the event and just after it, so its ability won't trigger.

Daniel Kitachewsky


Is this the correct interpretation?
Or is it an oversight from an overworked Kitachewsky?


I feel uncomfortable challenging a L3 Net-Rep's ruling...
But he's human, thus prone to mistakes...




This demonstration still is the most convincing I've seen yet:

When you want to know how many discrete actions are present in an instruction, count the number of separate verbs in the instruction. For Heart of Yavimaya, they are :

  1. Sacrifice a forest

  2. Put HoY (onto the battlefield or into its owner's graveyard.)


 


That means the replacement effect replaces one action with two. So you perform the first, creating a new gamestate, then work out what the second action is and perform that. Consequently there is a gamestate after the Forest is sacrificed and before the HoY enters the battlefield  in which there is no Island (or any other land) controlled by Dandan's controller.





Dandan should trigger... I guess we'll need OR!




603.4. A triggered ability may read "When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect]." When the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. The ability triggers only if it is; otherwise it does nothing. If the ability triggers, it checks the stated condition again as it resolves. If the condition isn't true at that time, the ability is removed from the stack and does nothing. Note that this mirrors the check for legal targets. This rule is referred to as the "intervening 'if' clause" rule. (The word "if" has only its normal English meaning anywhere else in the text of a card; this rule only applies to an "if" that immediately follows a trigger condition.)
Example: Felidar Sovereign reads, "At the beginning of your upkeep, if you have 40 or more life, you win the game." Its controller's life total is checked as that player's upkeep begins. If that player has 39 or less life, the ability doesn't trigger at all. If that player has 40 or more life, the ability triggers and goes on the stack. As the ability resolves, that player's life total is checked again. If that player has 39 or less life at this time, the ability is removed from the stack and has no effect. If that player has 40 or more life at this time, the ability resolves and that player wins the game.

Just to put in my two cents,
both of these events are triggered abilities, and in the rules, they go on the stack, and since they both happen at the same time, the the active player chooses which one will happen first, and then as they resolve, they test to see if the condition still exists, if it is not true, then it does nothing as it leaves the stack.
EDIT: That is, while the ruling is technically correct for the email-based question, the ruling is incorrect (IMHO) for the question posed in the OP of this thread, but some people think it works due to faulty logic as to why the ruling is correct in regard to the email-based question. In the email based question, there was another Island coming into play at the same time, so it was automatically there the whole time. The question of which we're speaking involves no island coming into play with HoY, and the only Island on the field being sacrificed to HoY (which is going to be an island, itself, due to Prismatic Omen or something of similar nature).


The Swamp in the OP will also be an island due to Prismatic Omen.  There's no relevant difference between question B in the original post and the first question asked on MTGRULES-L.



Oops, yeah. I was referring to situation A in the OP; I thought a PO was involved in that one as well. But that's the one to which I've been referring. Prismatic Omen just became part of it, in my head, and I forgot to seperate it back out.

Still, it was also ruled that the first scenario has the sacrifice and the 'enters the 'field' of HoY be simultaneous, and I don't believe that's correct. Again, it says 'if you do,' and if it tries to handle the actions simultaneously, then you haven't yet sacrificed a land, so HoY should be put into your graveyard. It has to be sequential to make sense.

Somewhat-relevant rule:


608.2c The controller of the spell or ability follows its instructions in the order written. However, replacement effects may modify these actions. In some cases, later text on the card may modify the meaning of earlier text (for example, “Destroy target creature. It can’t be regenerated” or “Counter target spell. If that spell is countered this way, put it on top of its owner’s library instead of into its owner’s graveyard.”) Don’t just apply effects step by step without thinking in these cases—read the whole text and apply the rules of English to the text.

A static ability that generates a replacement effect is subject to this rule--it's still an ability. (I'm aware that this is found under 'Resolving Spells and Abilities,' but I think it applies to this as well, because there's no reason for only one thing to follow this rule while others don't, as that's unintuitive.) And the second bolded part also applies to my earlier argument--'if you do' isn't true, if you're sacrificing and checking for the sacrifice simultaneously, as far as the check is concerned, so if they try to happen simultaneously, HoY should enter the graveyard.

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603.4. A triggered ability may read "When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect]." When the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. The ability triggers only if it is; otherwise it does nothing. If the ability triggers, it checks the stated condition again as it resolves. If the condition isn't true at that time, the ability is removed from the stack and does nothing. Note that this mirrors the check for legal targets. This rule is referred to as the "intervening 'if' clause" rule. (The word "if" has only its normal English meaning anywhere else in the text of a card; this rule only applies to an "if" that immediately follows a trigger condition.)
Example: Felidar Sovereign reads, "At the beginning of your upkeep, if you have 40 or more life, you win the game." Its controller's life total is checked as that player's upkeep begins. If that player has 39 or less life, the ability doesn't trigger at all. If that player has 40 or more life, the ability triggers and goes on the stack. As the ability resolves, that player's life total is checked again. If that player has 39 or less life at this time, the ability is removed from the stack and has no effect. If that player has 40 or more life at this time, the ability resolves and that player wins the game.

Just to put in my two cents,
both of these events are triggered abilities, and in the rules, they go on the stack, and since they both happen at the same time, the the active player chooses which one will happen first, and then as they resolve, they test to see if the condition still exists, if it is not true, then it does nothing as it leaves the stack.



Completely irrelevant to the discussion. Heart of Yavimaya has no triggered ability. Also, a trigger condition no longer being true doesn't make a trigger leave the stack unless the trigger specifically says so, if it's even possible to word an ability as such.

MTG Rules Advisor Mirrodin_Loyalty.png

Completely irrelevant to the discussion. Heart of Yavimaya has no triggered ability. Also, a trigger condition no longer being true doesn't make a trigger leave the stack unless the trigger specifically says so, if it's even possible to word an ability as such.



BetaLoganFive was refering to Dandan's triggered ability, not HoY...



But you are still correct: it is completely irrelevant.

Rule 603.4 is about the «intervening IF clause», which does not apply to Dandan: there is NO IFs in Dadan's ability.


Heart of Yavimaya[/c] has no triggered ability. Also, a trigger condition no longer being true doesn't make a trigger leave the stack unless the trigger specifically says so, if it's even possible to word an ability as such.




 Heart of Yavimaya has the word When is this not the beginning of a triggered event

also, I was saying that as a triggered event resolves, if the condition is no longer true, then it does nothing

Heart of Yavimaya[/c] has no triggered ability. Also, a trigger condition no longer being true doesn't make a trigger leave the stack unless the trigger specifically says so, if it's even possible to word an ability as such.




 Heart of Yavimaya has the word When is this not the beginning of a triggered event

also, I was saying that as a triggered event resolves, if the condition is no longer true, then it does nothing



Heart of Yavimaya does not have the word "when" in its rules text.

108.1. Use the Oracle(TM) card reference when determining a card's wording. A card's Oracle text can be found using the Gatherer card database at <gatherer.wizards.com">gatherer.wizards.com>.


Current Oracle rules text.

If Heart of Yavimaya would enter the battlefield, sacrifice a Forest instead. If you do, put Heart of Yavimaya onto the battlefield. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard.


That is true only for an "intervening-if."

603.4. A triggered ability may read "When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect]." When the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. The ability triggers only if it is; otherwise it does nothing. If the ability triggers, it checks the stated condition again as it resolves. If the condition isn't true at that time, the ability is removed from the stack and does nothing. Note that this mirrors the check for legal targets. This rule is referred to as the "intervening 'if' clause" rule. (The word "if" has only its normal English meaning anywhere else in the text of a card; this rule only applies to an "if" that immediately follows a trigger condition.)



Completely irrelevant to the discussion. Heart of Yavimaya has no triggered ability. Also, a trigger condition no longer being true doesn't make a trigger leave the stack unless the trigger specifically says so, if it's even possible to word an ability as such.



BetaLoganFive was refering to Dandan's triggered ability, not HoY...



But you are still correct: it is completely irrelevant.

Rule 603.4 is about the «intervening IF clause», which does not apply to Dandan: there is NO IFs in Dadan's ability.





The word 'both' means 'two.' He was also referring to HoY because he looked at printed, instead of Oracle, wording.

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Edit: nevermind...

But the question comes up, how does one know this ruling on this card if Internet access is not available to check oracle?
IMAGE(http://images.community.wizards.com/community.wizards.com/user/blitzschnell/0a90721d221e50e5755af156c179fe51.jpg?v=90000)
I quess I have brought into this a little bit of newbeness,
I did mean both cards
thank you mqj for teaching me to look up the card in the Gatherer before posting, especially on older cards.
just as a side note, that ruling is 7 years old, since the game has evolved to allow when triggered effects, like Stormfront Riders which can target itself when it enters the field, maybe this card should return to its original print on the card, and enter the field and then sacrifice a forest
just as a side note, that ruling is 7 years old, since the game has evolved to allow when triggered effects, like Stormfront Riders which can target itself when it enters the field, maybe this card should return to its original print on the card, and enter the field and then sacrifice a forest

Heart of Yavimaya and similar cards like Lotus Vale, Lake of the Dead, and Scorched Ruins, were printed at a time when you had to resolve the triggered ability before you could play any mana abilities of the card. Under modern rules, triggered abilities can be responded to, which means that if cards like Lotus Vale and Scorched Ruins still had triggered abilities, they would essentially be variants of Black Lotus, which was never their intent.

The closest way to replicate the original functionality of these cards in the modern rules is for them to be worded as replacement effects, which is exactly what the oracle text does. It is misguided to suggest that they be turned back into triggered abilities, since doing so is a large step away from their original functionality.

But the question comes up, how does one know this ruling on this card if Internet access is not available to check oracle?



Move to planet Earth?



Still, the original OP's question has not been satisfactorily answered:


Will Dandan trigger?