Legends and Lore: An Introduction

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I don't know about how much anti-3E, anti-4E, anti-whatever that goes on here...but I just want to make a point.

Ever since WotC has gained  control of the D&D IP, backwards support has been non-existant.

Why can't WotC support legacy rulesets for D&D? If 4E is your thing, great...go get 'em! If you love 3E, go skill and feat yourself however you want. Same for 2E, 1E and Basic (in its various flavors).

My problem is that, I love Basic D&D (Moldvay, Cook, Marsh and Mentzer = heroes IMO). But I can't purchase anything for it anymore. I don't have time to write new worlds and dungeons for my gaming group. I want old school content. I also don't want to spend HOURS converting 4E and 3E adventures to Basic D&D. I want new content. Why can't I get it?

Why won't WotC republish prior versions of the game? Why can't I go buy a reprinting of AD&D 2E from the WotC website. I completely understand why they don't push these products to retail outlets...the demand for them is minimal, but they can provide them as direct purchases from their website.

You cannot lay demands for unity among the D&D fans and yet deny those who choose to not play your latest ruleset. If D&D is truly embodied with the mantra of "No specific rule, no random opinion, no game concept from an R&D designer", then why must WotC force me to purchase their new systems in order to get new content?

You could probably make more money by supporting ALL prior versions of D&D instead of rewriting the core rules every few years. Don't discontinue products. You don't have to stock shelves or keep a warehouse of goods. Partner with service providers like Lulu.com to publish past content at premium prices. I'll pay, I don't mind.

Just support those of us who choose to play a version other than your current "latest and greatest".

(edit: I think it's funny that I joined these forums in 2006, but I have never posted until today)



At the core, the reason is because it wouldn't sell.  While I feel for you, you are one a very small section of an already very small population.

But take heart!

There are modules and non-rule related content still being produced in the spirit of classic early D&D through various fanzines and small indie publications.  While I can't speak to the quality or playtesting of this content, or if there are any new rules at all tucked inside, the plain fact is that they exist.
Essentials zigged, when I wanted to continue zagging. Roll dice, not cars.
They don't have the rights to previous versions. The same reason no company is making star wars 7-9.


AFAIK, When WotC purchased TSR, they purchased the right to every IP TSR owned. That includes every previous version of D&D.

Now, I may be wrong, perhaps some stipulation of legal agreements between TSR, WotC, Arneson, Gygax or other parties may prevent the re-publishing of prior generation D&D content, but that information has never been released that I am aware of.

WotC purchased TSR and all its intellectual property. They can republish any of the old TSR published material that they wish (perhaps they would be required to relinquish the TSR trademark from such a product, but they would want to do that anyway).

This is further evidenced by WotC's recent publication of Tomb of Horrors for 4th Edition. Tomb of Horrors was published by TSR in 1978. WotC recently converted it to 4th Edition (though I am not sure regarding the extent of changes made) and published it under the same name.

If they didn't have the rights to publish previous versions, this would, in fact, be copyright violation by WotC...but it isn't, because they do have the rights to republish any and all of the content that was once owned by TSR.

Of course, there is a chance I am wrong...but until a WotC lawyer chimes in and explains otherwise, I won't believe it. 



They might have rights to the names and trademarks, but not the copyright itself.  So they can publish a new Tomb of Horrors inspired by the original, but not republish the original.  Maybe.  I'm no lawyer.

More to the point, Tomb of Horrors for 4e is for 4e.  Republishing the original doesn WotC no good.

Now, if WotC does have the rights to publish all the old content, I think they could make a serious outreach by making all of the old stuff available in PDF form via direct download.  Even if nothing "new" is released (which probably wouldn't be worth development time), merely having the old stuff available would have tremendous PR benefits, and I'm sure some of the new players would be interested enough in the history of the game to explore the old content.  Plus, there is the "museum/library" aspect, a way to preserve the past permanently, so the content isn't lost to time.

That would be worthwhile, but it would require a shift of business practice on WotC part; namely, PDF sales and availability.  But that's another topic.
Essentials zigged, when I wanted to continue zagging. Roll dice, not cars.
They don't have the rights to previous versions. The same reason no company is making star wars 7-9.



I am pretty sure that WotC owns all the rights to all previous editions of D&D. I think that Kenzer also has rights to one of the older editions due to a lawsuit, but to the best of my knowledge, they are all owned (either partially or wholly) by WotC.
Mudbunny SVCL for DDI Before you post, think of the Monkeysphere
At the core, the reason is because it wouldn't sell.  While I feel for you, you are one a very small section of an already very small population.

We are truly a minority, but sales are sales. Hasn't sales of D&D been to a minority since its existence?

But take heart!

There are modules and non-rule related content still being produced in the spirit of classic early D&D through various fanzines and small indie publications.  While I can't speak to the quality or playtesting of this content, or if there are any new rules at all tucked inside, the plain fact is that they exist.

I know, and I am supporting them and love what they do.


More to the point, Tomb of Horrors for 4e is for 4e.  Republishing the original doesn WotC no good.

I disagree. If they were to republish the original, then I would buy it...since I don't have a copy of the original. I would love to own a fresh, newly minted copy.

That would be worthwhile, but it would require a shift of business practice on WotC part; namely, PDF sales and availability.  But that's another topic.

They used to sell them via PDF (via Paizo...but the quality was utter crap), and I picked up some things during that time, but I cannot legally print them (because of the quality and copyright) other than on my home printer (which is not nearly as good as printing them professionally).

It would NOT require a serious shift in business practice. Print small runs of older material, stock them until you sell out. Set schedules for runs to be printed and publish the schedule. WotC can probably print things for less than pennies on the dollar considering their vast printing history.

Even if you don't print them in runs, you could release printing rights to Lulu.com or some other intermediary (WotC still retains the rights), allow them to print the material and earn some profits. There's no risk involved to WotC. They earn profits, Lulu.com earns profits, the old school players get what they want. What's to lose?

There's loads of potential business models out there to support D&D fans who prefer older versions if WotC is willing to look at them.

I disagree. If they were to republish the original, then I would buy it...since I don't have a copy of the original. I would love to own a fresh, newly minted copy.



Answer this.  Why should WoTC lose a ton of money so that you and others can buy a few old modules?  Would you be willing to pay $1000 dollars a module or whatever inflated price they need to sell them at in order to cover basic costs?

It would NOT require a serious shift in business practice. Print small runs of older material, stock them until you sell out. Set schedules for runs to be printed and publish the schedule. WotC can probably print things for less than pennies on the dollar considering their vast printing history.



The bolded part is important.  None of their printing history includes anything prior to 3ed.  They would have to pay for things from the ground up, and they make money on things like that from bulk, not from a little here and a little there over decades. 

The marked for pre-3ed is very, very small and shrinking monthly. 

Even if you don't print them in runs, you could release printing rights to Lulu.com or some other intermediary (WotC still retains the rights), allow them to print the material and earn some profits. There's no risk involved to WotC. They earn profits, Lulu.com earns profits, the old school players get what they want. What's to lose?



This is slightly more feasible, but you'd have to find a company willing to lose money printing something that will sell sloooooowly.  And those smaller companies have less excess capital to be tied up in slow sellers.

There's loads of potential business models out there to support D&D fans who prefer older versions if WotC is willing to look at them.



The only real method that would work is for them to sell the PDFs, but then they get into their piracy issues again.



yeah, PDFs is the way to go for selling really old stuff, but given WotC feelings towards PDFs and piracy (whether unfounded or not), I doubt it would happen.

Personally, I'd like them to be released for free.  I think the goodwill and it would engender in the larger community, as well as the positive PR, might lead to increased 4e sales.  I dunno.  Just a thought.
Essentials zigged, when I wanted to continue zagging. Roll dice, not cars.
Answer this.  Why should WoTC lose a ton of money so that you and others can buy a few old modules?  Would you be willing to pay $1000 dollars a module or whatever inflated price they need to sell them at in order to cover basic costs?

I'm no printing guru, but I doubt that you are as well. It doesn't cost thousands of dollars to perform a 100 print run for a 35 page, saddle-stitched, printing of the original Tomb of Horrors. If you think it does, you're wrong. Even if their minimum print run was 1000 copies...it's still pennies on the dollar. Then all they have to do is stock it. If it all sells, produce another run. There's VERY LITTLE risk involved. The expenditure in organizing and printing could easily be swallowed in the cost of sales. Your markup of $1000 to cover cost is ludicrous.

The bolded part is important.  None of their printing history includes anything prior to 3ed.  They would have to pay for things from the ground up, and they make money on things like that from bulk, not from a little here and a little there over decades.

I suppose "history" wasn't the right word.

The right word is "capability". WotC has the capability to print things cheaply. They probably (not sure though) own their printing facilities. They also probabaly have digital copies of the original TSR publications. If they don't, they could reproduce them. 

Here's an idea. Reproduce the original content with updated art and errata fixes, then sell it. They would sell.

This is slightly more feasible, but you'd have to find a company willing to lose money printing something that will sell sloooooowly.  And those smaller companies have less excess capital to be tied up in slow sellers.

Lulu.com is an on-demand publisher. When you ask for a copy, they print it, bind it and send it to you. They do so at a very inexpensive price. They offer saddle stitch and other binding methods.

WotC doesn't have to "find" a company, the company is already found.

Once again, I reiterate...the risk is VERY minimal and while the payoff isn't going to be monstrous...it's still money in the bank. In my book...that's called profit.

Don't bash the idea until you can come up with a fully justifiable reason why it won't work. None of the arguments thus far have provided any sort of evidence of why it won't work. Yet, go and visit Lulu.com or any other on-demand publisher. They offer success stories. It can work. It would work, if WotC or Hasbro can start thinking outside the box.

My argument still stands:
You cannot lay demands for unity among the D&D fans and yet deny those who choose to not play your latest ruleset.
I'm no printing guru, but I doubt that you are as well. It doesn't cost thousands of dollars to perform a 100 print run for a 35 page, saddle-stitched, printing of the original Tomb of Horrors. If you think it does, you're wrong. Even if their minimum print run was 1000 copies...it's still pennies on the dollar. Then all they have to do is stock it. If it all sells, produce another run. There's VERY LITTLE risk involved. The expenditure in organizing and printing could easily be swallowed in the cost of sales. Your markup of $1000 to cover cost is ludicrous.



WoTC is not Lulu and they have to put out a certain level of quality for their printings that Lulu apparently does not.  There are quite a few initial costs that happen when you have to come up with a quality booklet from scratch.  You're right that I'm not an expert, but I do know that you are seriously underestimating the costs.


The right word is "capability". WotC has the capability to print things cheaply. They probably (not sure though) own their printing facilities. They also probabaly have digital copies of the original TSR publications. If they don't, they could reproduce them. 



That capability comes from printing things in very large bulk quantities AND from already having all of the initial costs covered.


Lulu.com is an on-demand publisher. When you ask for a copy, they print it, bind it and send it to you. They do so at a very inexpensive price. They offer saddle stitch and other binding methods.



At that point, why bother.  You're just as well off buying the PDF and just using your printer and a office depot fastener to make your own.  Better off, since you can just print it again if you spill soda or coffee on it.


My argument still stands:
You cannot lay demands for unity among the D&D fans and yet deny those who choose to not play your latest ruleset.



No, it really doesn't.  Your argument fails to take this thing called humanity into consideration.  Humanity will never achieve unity......for anything.  Even if you got your way, there still would never be unity.  The best you can do is ignore the extremely small groups that complain, since they aren't large enough to be worth bending over backwards for and try to please the greater group. 

Unfortunately for you, you are in the extremely small group, and 3.5/Pathfinder and 4ed are the currently large groups to be considered.  Pathfinder takes care of the 3.5/Pathfinder group and WoTC takes care of the 4ed group.  Any unity requests should be directed at those two large groupings, not the very few 1ed and 2ed fans out there.
You know, I caught wind of Mearl's article from another site (DF) and checked it out. I think he made a lot of great comments. I think his overall point was valid and he's simply trying to bring back the normalcy that is, "just game and have fun".

The man has his work cut out for him in asking everyone to just "get along" and "play nice". And not because of any fracturing of the community due to editions, that plays only a slight role; as Mike put it, regardless of edition, rules are just rules, it's what you bring to the table as players and the DM that matters.

And after reading this thread, I can see where the problem actually stems, it's from the community of players. Not only from the WotC forum members, but also from other forums, such as Dragonsfoot where the article was initially linked.

My point being that, the majority of you guys are just jerks. That's right....jerks.

There is no other polite way of putting it.

Here, Mearls is trying to make some peace over trivial b.s. that spans editions and most of you do nothing, NOTHING, but piss, moan, and argue over the same "pointless" crap that's been argued more times than matter.

You have people getting strung out because the game appears to be curtailing back to previous editions in some ways. You have some people posting the death knell of D&D because obviously they're not happy with the current edition/WotC/Harbro and would rather see the game die off.

WTF is wrong with you people? What does it matter if the game backslides in some ways, what does it matter if the game continues the 4E course? What does it matter if it switches gears in a new direction; these things have ZERO baring on how much fun you have with what you currently own. Are your heads so empty that the article went in one ear and out the other? Really!?

It's snotty, arrogant and piss poor attitudes like this, not editions, that ruin and fracture the community. How hard is it to just sit down at the table and just play the flippin' game!? You have the books, you have the dice, you have the accessories. Stop worrying about what WotC may or may not do, you know, the trite stuff, and just play already. Sometimes, it's not all about you and what you want.

And on DF, it's just as bad. Those guys are just as much jerks as posters here, dredging up imagined conspiracies and crying out, "Oh WotC ruined D&D, blah, blah, blah....".

Mike tries to bridge the gap for all parties and you still have people holding their breath and stamping their feet. Geesh.
blah blah blah I'm an account  newly created so I can be insulting on an account other than my primary account blah blah blah



That's what I got out of that post anyway.
Eh..... I kinda disagree with his premise (cause that would mean I'm a jerk) but overall I can somewhat see his point. Some people will never be happy no matter what... and unfortunately they tend to be the loudest and most widespread.

You can kind of see it. Anytime Essentials or the future of 4e is mentioned there are always those people who have to come and say everything they said everytime before, accuse people of being sheep, etc. And then there are the people like me who respond to them with snark and it kinda goes all downhill from there.

Disagree.... but I can understand. 
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move."-Douglas Adams
I never thought I'd ever register here but then again I avoid places like Knights and Knaves as well as rpgnet; I think I've posted there maybe 5 times.

With all that said I caught wind of this via grognardia. First off anyone can play any edition they want, doesn't bother me in the slightest. My group and I have what works for us and we are all set. If edition X works for them great for them.

What prompted me to register here was the fact that this was addressed to all editions of the game. If it wasn't for that I would have ignored it. Its a bit rich calling for unity when Wizards told me 11 years ago that they didn't want to produce for older editions of the game. So why should I care about unity when WotC dropped me as a customer?

Lest anyone fool themselves there is probably a sizable group that won't upgrade to 4th this still play stuff pre-3rd. Is it a small group? Don't know, I don't think anyone does. Would it be worthwhile, again, who know?

Its far to late for unity. That ended in 1985 with Gary leaving. I moved to 2nd edition was unaware of the problems surroundiing TSR. then 2000 came around and split the customer base. Now we have another rift 3.0/3.5 migrating to Pathfinder vs 4e D&D; history is repeating itself.

In closing: in the end I didn't leave D&D, D&D left me.
Eh..... I kinda disagree with his premise (cause that would mean I'm a jerk) but overall I can somewhat see his point. Some people will never be happy no matter what... and unfortunately they tend to be the loudest and most widespread.

You can kind of see it. Anytime Essentials or the future of 4e is mentioned there are always those people who have to come and say everything they said everytime before, accuse people of being sheep, etc. And then there are the people like me who respond to them with snark and it kinda goes all downhill from there.

Disagree.... but I can understand. 



I didn't read the whole thing.  Once I saw that it was a newly created account with 1 post AND it was name calling, I just stopped reading.  Posts like that are usually a waste of time to read.
Eh..... I kinda disagree with his premise (cause that would mean I'm a jerk) but overall I can somewhat see his point. Some people will never be happy no matter what... and unfortunately they tend to be the loudest and most widespread.

You can kind of see it. Anytime Essentials or the future of 4e is mentioned there are always those people who have to come and say everything they said everytime before, accuse people of being sheep, etc. And then there are the people like me who respond to them with snark and it kinda goes all downhill from there.

Disagree.... but I can understand. 

Yeah...I see it in the same light as political discourse in America.  There is nothing wrong with not liking something, or expressing the fact that you don't like something.  But it should be possible to do it without saying that those who disagree with you are Hitler.

There are plenty of people on these boards who are very respectful, even about things which they don't like.  (Off the top of my head Foxface comes to mind...he doesn't care for Essentials and yet has never called me any names just because I do like it.  There are many others.)

The problem, as blazian points out, is that the rude people tend to be very loud (on the forum that means their posts stand out), and they manage to draw the reasonable people down to their level.  That in turn brings the whole forum down.

I think a solution would be to respond to any rude posts with, "I disagree with what you are saying but I will defend to the death your right to say it."  And then move on.
Aww shucks, Ari... ::blushes::  You shouldn't have...

I love you, too.  ::smooches::

EDIT: I've said some disrespectful things on this board and have been modded for them, but they are universally directed to people who spout sexist, racist, or otherwise culturally ignorant things, either intentionally or unintentionally.

I'm sure you remember the Race and D&D thread from a few months back, Ari.  The one that went on for...what was it?  70+ pages?  I got snippy in that thread...
Essentials zigged, when I wanted to continue zagging. Roll dice, not cars.
The points have been made.

Some have been understood.

Some have not.

This is not your fault.

Understanding begins with the simple act of listening or reading.

If you do not or unable to do this you will never understand.

The point has been made previously.

It is part opinion, part speculation.

These are the points.

Understand them or do not. 
I didn't read the whole thing.  Once I saw that it was a newly created account with 1 post AND it was name calling, I just stopped reading.  Posts like that are usually a waste of time to read.



This is not good.
Zeitgeist, D&D style.

And it gets worse: In Dragon Magazine 380 at page 85 one of Mearls's co-conspirators reveals himself by acurately predicting Dethand's reaction with a feat. Chris Sims.. I KNEW it.

In  the same issue Peter Schaefer also reveals himself by dedicating yet another feat to Dethand on page 20.

Its starting to scare me.



The point was made and understood.

The relevance is weighted with calls of unity.

There is no unity here.

Only scorn and derision.

This is not good.


 

Answer this.  Why should WoTC lose a ton of money so that you and others can buy a few old modules?  Would you be willing to pay $1000 dollars a module or whatever inflated price they need to sell them at in order to cover basic costs?



This is the point made earlier.

Why would WotC want unity then with older editions?

Why did Mr. Mearls make this post and call for unity?

Unity is not happening.

This is not your fault.

It is the division of editions engendered earlier in this community.

This needs to change.
three posts probably wasn't necessary, particular with the (no offense) Captain Kirk sentence style, and i think unity can happen- while it's true that the earlier editions erode at the sales base, it's also true that the essentials material is selling very well and more to the point- bringing in new gamers, and bringing back old ones. Expanding the customer base makes the division far less of an issue, particularly since players beget more players (folk often get friends into this game), further expanding it.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/8.jpg)

Aww shucks, Ari... ::blushes::  You shouldn't have...

I love you, too.  ::smooches::

EDIT: I've said some disrespectful things on this board and have been modded for them, but they are universally directed to people who spout sexist, racist, or otherwise culturally ignorant things, either intentionally or unintentionally.

I'm sure you remember the Race and D&D thread from a few months back, Ari.  The one that went on for...what was it?  70+ pages?  I got snippy in that thread...



Oh yikes do I ever remember that thread...snippiness was definitely called for.

The points have been made.

Some have been understood.

Some have not.

This is not your fault.

Understanding begins with the simple act of listening or reading.

If you do not or unable to do this you will never understand.

The point has been made previously.

It is part opinion, part speculation.

These are the points.

Understand them or do not. 



I'm not sure if this is extraordinarily insightful or pure drivel, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.  (I made a little change there, did you see it?)  As an aside, I actually like your writing style...it has a very biblical feel to it.  You could try to play that up:

"And lo, it is part opinion, part speculation.

These are the points, and they are good."

You can really see these carved into big honking slabs of marble.
I think some people are reading too much into the whole 'unity' thing.  I think all that he is saying is this:  Have some perspective, its a game people.  I think the people who think we all need to be playing the same edition to get along are the ones who truly don't get it, the whole point is that me liking one edition and you liking another isn't the end of the world or even the end of gaming as we know it.  I can play the version I like, you can play the version you like, we can even discuss the pros and cons of each but We don't have to sit here and bash each other because the other enjoys something we don't.  It's a game FFS.

That's how I see the article and I agree. 
I think some people are reading too much into the whole 'unity' thing.  I think all that he is saying is this:  Have some perspective, its a game people.  I think the people who think we all need to be playing the same edition to get along are the ones who truly don't get it, the whole point is that me liking one edition and you liking another isn't the end of the world or even the end of gaming as we know it.  I can play the version I like, you can play the version you like, we can even discuss the pros and cons of each but We don't have to sit here and bash each other because the other enjoys something we don't.  It's a game FFS.

That's how I see the article and I agree. 



I couldn't have said it better myself.
The problem is however is the timing, its more then a bit odd that WotC is choosing to communicate this message at this time: i.e. with Pathfinder really giving it to WotC.

I have no dog in this race as I'm not playing either Pathfinder or 4e. I think a lot of the old school gamers would have far worse to say. I'm in the weird place personally, not old, old schoo,l but not new either.

And to the point of how difficult would it be to release older stuff? Not very. The deisgn would take next to nothing as the books are already complete. Scan them, drop them into InDesign and make a PDF. Direct to plate and its ready to be printed. Printing isn't the main cost as the more you print the cheaper it becomes. The biggest cost is bindery, there is no real way around that. And this is coming from someone with a  graphic design background and works IT now supporting said efforts. So the production point is a moot one if we are talking about reprinting what already exists: take a 1st edition book what have you cut it apart and use a sheet/page book scanner, could be accomplished fairly easily by a design group with the right equipment. And if its PDF only then we are talking about no printed costs on WotC part,  really it's minimal effort to do this. New stuff would be a different kettle of fish.

To the contention that anyone who plays 1st or 2nd is too small to matter. Who know really? I bet even WotC hasnt researched that out. It might be worthwhile for all we know and anything else is guessing.

TBQH- In the end I truly believe there is no putting this genie back in it's bottle.
That's how I see the article and I agree. 


Seems pretty apparent to me too, but as we know too well, common sense isn't so common.

People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. --George Orwell

There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. --Howard Zinn

He who fights with monsters must take care lest he thereby become a monster. --Friedrich Nietzsche

Devil\'s Brigade

Aww shucks, Ari... ::blushes::  You shouldn't have...

I love you, too.  ::smooches::

EDIT: I've said some disrespectful things on this board and have been modded for them, but they are universally directed to people who spout sexist, racist, or otherwise culturally ignorant things, either intentionally or unintentionally.

I'm sure you remember the Race and D&D thread from a few months back, Ari.  The one that went on for...what was it?  70+ pages?  I got snippy in that thread...



Yeah.  There have been a few times where you and I have gotten into it a bit, but I agree that you are very level headed and polite most of the time.  It has been a pleasure to debate with you.
That's how I see the article and I agree. 


Seems pretty apparent to me too, but as we know too well, common sense isn't so common.




Too true, sadly.  I just never have gotten why so many people seem so downright offended that someone might enjoy some other version of the game.  They treat it like a political party or a religion rather than just a variant of an activity they both enjoy.  It seems more than a bit silly to me.
The problem is however is the timing, its more then a bit odd that WotC is choosing to communicate this message at this time: i.e. with Pathfinder really giving it to WotC.



But that isn't established truth.  There is no evidence that Pathfinder is doing better than 4E, or that Paizo is outselling WotC, or that profit margins are higher for one or the other.

There is literally no evidence.  The frequently spouted Amazon sales reports mean nothing.  They are updated by the hour.  Last I checked, Caverns of Icewind Dale is the best selling RPG item.  So 4E must be kicking ass ::rolls eyes::

At most, we have Eric Mona publically saying that they (Paizo) are pleased at their current sales, and that they remain a mere fraction of WotC's sales.
Essentials zigged, when I wanted to continue zagging. Roll dice, not cars.

Yeah.  There have been a few times where you and I have gotten into it a bit, but I agree that you are very level headed and polite most of the time.  It has been a pleasure to debate with you.

Only most of the time?!  ::fake indignance::  Well, I never!  ::huff puff::

But yeah, I almost never agree with you, Max, beyond the "As long as your group likes it, you're free to do whatever you want" stance.

Doesn't mean I don't enjoy going a few rounds in the ring with ya.  Now about refluffing greatswords as daggers...

EDIT: Oh!  We also agree that Alignment should be gone, because what little it adds is drowned out by all the potential problems, and also what it adds could be covered by a page in the PHB encouraging players to think about their personality and motives (which kinda already does exist).
Essentials zigged, when I wanted to continue zagging. Roll dice, not cars.
Where is this "unity" stuff coming from, or at least the definition that folks seem to be applying to it (which seems to be "why can't we all play 4E?")

And how are people getting "capitulation" from reconciliation?

The inaugural article was clearly a call for an end to hostilities between fans of editions by focusing on what is common between us, rather than what is different.

There was a heck of a lot of wisdom there, but a lot of folks still want to argue.
That's how I see the article and I agree. 


Seems pretty apparent to me too, but as we know too well, common sense isn't so common.




Too true, sadly.  I just never have gotten why so many people seem so downright offended that someone might enjoy some other version of the game.  They treat it like a political party or a religion rather than just a variant of an activity they both enjoy.  It seems more than a bit silly to me.

It is sad that "treating it like a political party or a religion" has come to mean acting "downright offended that someone might enjoy some other version of the [insert whatever here]". 
Whether we are talking about politics, religion, or even something as silly as gaming (yes, it is silly, doesn't mean I don't love every second of it!), it is important to keep things in perspective.  Just because someone is different doesn't make them bad.  Just because bad people exist doesn't mean you can extrapolate that onto everyone.

Now, if I may attempt to hijack this thread:

Let us post ways in which we have enhanced our game (whatever version of D&D or other RPG that may be) by using stuff from other versions or games.

I was recently steered toward several Pathfinder quests as part of another thread.  I downloaded and read through one of them ("Revenge of the Kobold King") and found it to be quite good.  I hope to steal it for a future 4E game at some point.  Hmm..maybe sooner than I think...my current party has killed many foes.  The trick will be to find one that was memorable enough...
It's human nature. Sometimes I feel that if I really tried I could get a flame war going about how TGI Friday's is the superior eating establishment and anyone who would dare eat at Outback, Olive Garden, Red Lobster, or Hibachi are sinful sheep and not liking Jack Daniels sauce would be akin to heresy.
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move."-Douglas Adams
It's human nature. Sometimes I feel that if I really tried I could get a flame war going about how TGI Friday's is the superior eating establishment and anyone who would dare eat at Outback, Olive Garden, Red Lobster, or Hibachi are sinful sheep and not liking Jack Daniels sauce would be akin to heresy.



Sadly, you probably could.
It's human nature. Sometimes I feel that if I really tried I could get a flame war going about how TGI Friday's is the superior eating establishment and anyone who would dare eat at Outback, Olive Garden, Red Lobster, or Hibachi are sinful sheep and not liking Jack Daniels sauce would be akin to heresy.




"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- ) Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition. Salla: opinionated, but commonly right.
fun quotes
58419928 wrote:
You have to do the work first, and show you can do the work, before someone is going to pay you for it.
69216168 wrote:
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?[/quote]
I should tell you guys the story about how a fight broke out in the lobyy of an Olive Garden between two women and a bartender while I worked there.  Broken nails and bits of weave were EVERYWHERE!

PM for the details.
Essentials zigged, when I wanted to continue zagging. Roll dice, not cars.
i think unity can happen.

Unity among D&D players of all editions happens often:

  1. When we are talking about GURPS.

  2. When we are watching LARPers in the city park.

  3. When we talk about video games.

  4. When we send rulebooks to the troops.

  5. When someone outside the game attacks roleplayers.

Outside of that, we have our little camps, set up at different tables, blissfully content with the rightness of the edition we play. And all is good.
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
  • Three Basic Rules (p 11)
  • Power Types and Usage (p 54)
  • Skills (p178-179)
  • Feats (p 192)
  • Rest and Recovery (p 263)
  • All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
It's human nature. Sometimes I feel that if I really tried I could get a flame war going about how TGI Friday's is the superior eating establishment and anyone who would dare eat at Outback, Olive Garden, Red Lobster, or Hibachi are sinful sheep and not liking Jack Daniels sauce would be akin to heresy.







You should really stop drinking the kool aid sheep. TGI Friday's is the best eating establishment ever and anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid. I get ribs... what does Olive Garden give you? Knock off italian food? Pah-leeze.

And also I hate Olive Gardens because on page 7 of their menu they are making fun of Red Lobster by the way they named their seafood. And I have solid proof of this. 
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move."-Douglas Adams
It's human nature. Sometimes I feel that if I really tried I could get a flame war going about how TGI Friday's is the superior eating establishment and anyone who would dare eat at Outback, Olive Garden, Red Lobster, or Hibachi are sinful sheep and not liking Jack Daniels sauce would be akin to heresy.







You should really stop drinking the kool aid sheep. TGI Friday's is the best eating establishment ever and anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid. I get ribs... what does Olive Garden give you? Knock off italian food? Pah-leeze.

And also I hate Olive Gardens because on page 7 of their menu they are making fun of Red Lobster by the way they named their seafood. And I have solid proof of this. 


Hey unless them is Beef Ribs puleeze who cares. And Outback is just so layed back the are actually an American menu pshah not aussie at all (awesome food though and cheaper than Red Lobster who also rocks).

And how far straight sideways can we actually run with this?
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Olive garden offers bottomless soup, salad, and pasta at reasonable rates - a recursive loop that allows for arbitrarily high returns for your investment.  It breaks meals on its own.  If olive garden is available among your dining options you're literally hurting yourself by not eating there.
Hall Pass proves that ApplebeesTM is the place to go.
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
  • Three Basic Rules (p 11)
  • Power Types and Usage (p 54)
  • Skills (p178-179)
  • Feats (p 192)
  • Rest and Recovery (p 263)
  • All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.