02/15/2011 SF: "This is an Arms Race"

37 posts / 0 new
Last post
This thread is for discussion of this week's Serious Fun, which goes live Tuesday morning on magicthegathering.com.
Excellent article. I for one am sick and tired of hearing about "These cards need to be in every EDH deck!" and all the myriad variations on "You need to make your EDH deck more powerful and competitive, you whining scrub."
Never apologize for success.
This is a really relevant topic for casual play that I enjoyed reading about.

Also, Skithiryx isn't that hard to spell. All you really have to know is that there's only one "y" and it's at the end.
This topic is really relevant for casual play. The best ways to win aren't necessarily the funnest ones. In my opinion, it is the strategies that decrease interactivity (like land destruction, discarding, infinite comboes) between players that are the least fun to play against in casual.

Likewise, it is the strageties that increase interactivity that I find the most fun to play. Increased interactivity between players does mean that the opponents are more likely to have an answer to your strategy, but it's that type of tension that helps make the game fun. It's like the difference between someone taking infinite turns using Time Sieve, compared to someone leveling up to get extra turns with Lighthouse Chronologist.
A very good article.  I'd like to see more like this.  "How to make a casual game work for competitive players" is a very challenging question, but most of us don't want to see our metas populated only by combo decks racing to go off.  Articles such as this one help suggest how a group can keep that from happening.
Thanks to everyone who helped with the design of the plane of Golamo in the Great Designer Search 2!
My Decks
These are the decks I have assembled at the moment:
Tournament Decks (4)
Kicker Aggro (Invasion Block) Sunforger/Izzet Guildmage Midrange (Ravnica/Time Spiral/Xth Standard) Dragonstorm Combo (Time Spiral/Lorwyn/Xth Standard) Bant Midrange (Lorwyn/Shards/M10 Standard)
Casual Multiplayer Decks (50)
Angel Resurrection Casual Soul Sisters Sindbad's Adventures with Djinn of Wishes Sphinx-Bone Wand Buyback Morph (No Instants or Sorceries) Cabal Coffers Control Zombie Aggro Hungry, Hungry Greater Gargadon/War Elemental Flashfires/Boil/Ruination - Boom! Call of the Wild Teysa, Orzhov Scion with Twilight Drover, Sun Titan, and Hivestone Slivers Rebels Cairn Wanderer Knights Only Gold and () Spells Captain Sisay Toolbox Spellweaver Helix Combo Merfolk Wizards Izzet Guildmage/The Unspeakable Arcane Combo Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and his Wizards Creatureless Wild Research/Reins of Power Madness Creatureless Pyromancer Ascension Anarchist Living Death Anvil of Bogardan Madness Shamen with Goblin Game/Wound Reflection Combo Mass damage Quest for Pure Flame Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle/Clear the Land with 40+ Lands Doubling Season Thallids Juniper Order Ranger Graft/Tokens Elf Archer Druids Equilibrium/Aluren Combo Experiment Kraj Combo Reap Combo False Cure/Kavu Predator Combo Savra, Queen of the Golgari Sacrifice/Dredge Elf Warriors Eight-Post Sneak Attack Where Ancients Tread Zur the Enchanter with Opal creatures Tamanoa/Kavu Predator/Collapsing Borders Esper Aggro Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and his Darksteel Reactor Theft and Control Unearth Aggro Soul's Fire Vampires Devour Tokens Phytohydra with Powerstone Minefield Treefolk Friendly? Questing Phelddagrif Slivers Dragon Arch Fun I'm probably forgetting a few...
Articles such as this one help suggest how a group can keep that from happening.

Playing more Control seems an obvious solution.

Never apologize for success.



Depends. Winning does not equate to eating their soul, skinning them alive, scorching their minds, then drowning then in a toilet.

If you win that way then you just turned a fun game into another chore.

Yes eventually someone must win but one can have an epic game even if they lose.

One does not need a wrecking ball to have fun or be competative.
I am Blue/Black
I am Blue/Black
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I'm both selfish and rational. I'm scheming, secretive and manipulative; I use knowledge as a tool for personal gain, and in turn obtaining more knowledge. At best, I am mysterious and stealthy; at worst, I am distrustful and opportunistic.
Reading that article should be required of anyone who plays Commander. It's full of stuff I have been saying for a long time, and I'm sure by others as well. Everyone gets caught up in winning and forgets to have fun. Leave your Spike out of Commander! Leave your tutors at home, enjoy the singleton format. See what you draw, stop going for the combo! If you run Tooth and Nail or Defense of the Heart, don't be a jerk and go for Kiki-Jiki/Pestermite, everyone knows that's a win. Get over it. Go for the harder to answer Vigor/Spearbreaker Behemoth if you must. Or do something wacky and have fun for Pete's sake. (My favorite is Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs and Fumiko the Lowblood).

Oh and for the record, stop running Ulamog and Kozilek. They banned Emrakul (finally and thank goodness) so take a hint and play something else. I had a guy tell me in a match this very evening that he ran Eldrazi to stay competitive, so while he is playing Kozilek, I am trying to have fun with Goblin Game. Everyone needs to relax.
You kind of lost alot of credibility when you said you were playing Seedborn Muse.

That card is the definition of "Fun for one", which is what this article is trying to argue against.


Really, an "arms race" isn't the problem, playing "better" cards for a meta game is completely ok, as it encourages evolution (both in decks and in gameplay. Wrath of God might be good in one deck, but Rout could be better. Heck, even Phyrexian Rebirth now. But all those cards teach players about card advantage and not to overextend. How can those be bad things?) In this case, seeing cards like Persecute would teach players to diversify their threats, or learn how to play around discard.

The real problem is when you have the cards themselves playing magic, as opposed to the players playing magic, and that's exactly what cards like Seedborn Muse do.
I don't want to be the guy who comes in and rants about how the metagame is ruining Magic but screw it, the metagame has totally ruined Magic.

I appreciate this article because it seems a lot more subversive than it looks on the surface. Maybe I'm just projecting, but it's hard for me not to read this as a scatching rebuttal to the entire foundation of what competitve Magic has become. 
@ Jonwisegamgee

I played Emrakul for fun...and it was Banned.  I didn't cheat it out though I do have some ramp.  I had it in the deck because it is, for me, The Biggest Dude Around and I hate long games and The Aeons Torn tended to end games.  I had complainers, yes...but I also had people thank me for ending games.

My deck is pretty good, I win more games than I lose and I'm in a decently competitive meta with various combo-wins.  Some players looks to me to handle problems, and I try to do what I can.  That means running some very strong cards.

Doesn't mean I can't have fun either.  I run some extremely fringe answers (Darkness, Aether Snap) and I run some "viscious" stuff (Sorin, Sadistic Sacrement)...doesn't mean they aren't fun.

I've set people to 10 so that they don't win or that other people feel like they're back in the game or can contribute because they can now kill someone.  I've SadSac'd other players to take their combos out so that the whole group can keep playing.

Everyone has their limits though...I don't play things like Infernal Darkness.

Who gets to decide where the line is?

All I'm asking is that you look inward first before blaming something on the outside.  Is something really "broken" or, with a little bit of effort and smart play, could you deal with it?
Articles such as this one help suggest how a group can keep that from happening.

Playing more Control seems an obvious solution.

Unfortunately, that doesn't fix the problem once a group degenerates into combo - a single control deck can't stop a whole table from combo-ing out, it can only change which one successfully goes off first.  Everyone at the table is effectively discouraged from deviating from the combo plan - playing some other sort of deck reduces your chance of winning from 1/N to zero.  The only way to prevent this situation is to either get everyone to agree not to play combo (tricky), or to get enough of the group to stomp on combo decks whenever they show up, thus preventing them from reaching critical mass.
Thanks to everyone who helped with the design of the plane of Golamo in the Great Designer Search 2!
My Decks
These are the decks I have assembled at the moment:
Tournament Decks (4)
Kicker Aggro (Invasion Block) Sunforger/Izzet Guildmage Midrange (Ravnica/Time Spiral/Xth Standard) Dragonstorm Combo (Time Spiral/Lorwyn/Xth Standard) Bant Midrange (Lorwyn/Shards/M10 Standard)
Casual Multiplayer Decks (50)
Angel Resurrection Casual Soul Sisters Sindbad's Adventures with Djinn of Wishes Sphinx-Bone Wand Buyback Morph (No Instants or Sorceries) Cabal Coffers Control Zombie Aggro Hungry, Hungry Greater Gargadon/War Elemental Flashfires/Boil/Ruination - Boom! Call of the Wild Teysa, Orzhov Scion with Twilight Drover, Sun Titan, and Hivestone Slivers Rebels Cairn Wanderer Knights Only Gold and () Spells Captain Sisay Toolbox Spellweaver Helix Combo Merfolk Wizards Izzet Guildmage/The Unspeakable Arcane Combo Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and his Wizards Creatureless Wild Research/Reins of Power Madness Creatureless Pyromancer Ascension Anarchist Living Death Anvil of Bogardan Madness Shamen with Goblin Game/Wound Reflection Combo Mass damage Quest for Pure Flame Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle/Clear the Land with 40+ Lands Doubling Season Thallids Juniper Order Ranger Graft/Tokens Elf Archer Druids Equilibrium/Aluren Combo Experiment Kraj Combo Reap Combo False Cure/Kavu Predator Combo Savra, Queen of the Golgari Sacrifice/Dredge Elf Warriors Eight-Post Sneak Attack Where Ancients Tread Zur the Enchanter with Opal creatures Tamanoa/Kavu Predator/Collapsing Borders Esper Aggro Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and his Darksteel Reactor Theft and Control Unearth Aggro Soul's Fire Vampires Devour Tokens Phytohydra with Powerstone Minefield Treefolk Friendly? Questing Phelddagrif Slivers Dragon Arch Fun I'm probably forgetting a few...
"both bringing a deck built for showing off your favorite thing and one that leaves some room for others to show off theirs."


Yes, this! This is my guiding principle. This is why I minimise the amount of countermagic I play and don't play discard at all. I like to have fun games where both players get to do their thing and have fun, and then where I end up winning perhaps 2/3 of the time. If I win 90% of the time, that's probably not fun for my opponents.

My EDH experience breaks into two very different categories. Within my playgroup, we have fun EDH decks where silly things happen. But whenever I've played EDH with someone I don't know, like at a Prerelease - literally, every single time - someone has brought out a black-green recursion deck, usually Savra, and crushed everyone else into the dirt with repeated forced sacrifices. Sometimes we've come close to holding out with large amounts of tokens, but every time, the ridiculous recursion and forced-sacrifices have trampled everyone else.

It's fine for these people to play their high-power EDH decks within their own groups of friends where that happens. But I'm not playing EDH against a stranger with a black-green deck ever again. Destruction and removal is too integral a part of the interaction, the back-and-forth, that makes a good game of Magic, and recursion kills that. If every destruction can be undone effortlessly, it's just as if you were playing behind a countermagic wall. Occasional exile spells can be rays of light, but there aren't many of them printed.
Well, SOME people enjoy being a griefer. I don't see why we should all insist on these people having their fun ruined.

This is a serious point, though. I don't really get why it's such a big deal to play Persecute - in fact, it's stuff like this that makes me avoid EDH, as a general rule. It seems like an ideal format for broken things to happen, because while there are a huge number of available broken effects, there are an equal number of available broken answers. It's not THAT hard to kill an Emrakul - and sure, Persecute is nasty, but then so is counterspell.

EDH bugs me, in that there seems to be this general attitude that the usual survival-of-the-fittest rules just don't apply, and everyone has to chop down to the lowest common denominator. What happens if we start applying this logic elsewhere? Winning with Squadron Hawks and Jaces? BORING! Build something fun. Ban Gideon, aggro decks can't beat him!

I dunno, but I'm not sure it's the best attitude to have, even in more casual-orientated formats. 

 
Well, my playfield is quite cutthroat. Dealing with Emrakul was quite the common occurance. Survival of the fittest and kiki-jiki and so on are sort of staples. But while everybody plays the mean, mean cards (I'm certainly not the exception with cards like contamination), he still touches an important subject. Playing against non interactive decks is boring. It's not that these decks are uber powerful and unbeatable in the slightest, but they simply don't do anything for the most part of the game. And I for one don't like to sit around doing nothing for hours. It's a waste of my time, I have better things to do and better hobbies.
IMAGE(http://www.projektstarwars.de/forum/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=16432&dateline=1299412590) Fallen Star Verlag Play Legacy! Decks: Legacy Natural Order/Hulk EDH Iname, Death Aspect / Rosheen Meanderer Casual Elves! I petition for the removal of the mythic rarity.

I appreciated this article, though it was a bit vague.  I'd like to hear more about specific strategies for dealing with a cutthroat meta, both in and out of game.  My vision for Magic and most other forms of gaming has always been that you play games to have fun, and that you have no right to have your fun at the expense of everyone else's.  The ideal game to me is a cooperative fun experience, involving a great deal of negotiation and accomodating the wishes of others (which first requires you to learn how to verbalize your wishes, and translate the language of others doing the same, both of which are Serious Fun topics I'd like to see discussed - anyone have a psychologist or educator in your playgroup?).  The effortful task of figuring out how to render two-plus players' versions of fun compatible is something we need more study on.

My New Phyrexia Writing Credits My M12 Writing Credits
As far as the benefit of the rest of Magic is concerned, gold cards in Legends were executed perfectly. They got all the excitement a designer could hope out of a splashy new mechanic without using up any of the valuable design space. Truly amazing. --Aaron Forsythe's Random Card Comment on Kei Takahashi
Great article.  I am one of those EDH players who came up with a unique concept and kept polishing it.  It ended up being a beast because the only EDH games I ever got to play were "pro tour" event type situations, where people were winning by turn 4.  So I show up to a casual setting, and found myself "holding back" simply so we could enjoy our games.  That wasn't fair to me, but it was a choice I made and I was glad I did... so much so that I tore apart the deck, kept some core elements, and actually made the deck "worse." simply because I was having more fun playing longer than 4 turns.  And you know, I'm happier for it.
While I hate to be "that guy", I'm not much of a fan that one shouldn't play "unfun" cards, becasue of how hard it is to define exactly what cards are unfun. For example, while I could understand how that persecute would be unfun in a mostly monocolour one on one, I think it is an excellent card in a 4 person free for all. While I get the idea that decks should be interactive instead of everyone racing to their combo, I don't see how not running good removal like Black Sun's Zenith somehow makes for a more interactive game.
While I hate to be "that guy", I'm not much of a fan that one shouldn't play "unfun" cards, becasue of how hard it is to define exactly what cards are unfun. For example, while I could understand how that persecute would be unfun in a mostly monocolour one on one, I think it is an excellent card in a 4 person free for all. While I get the idea that decks should be interactive instead of everyone racing to their combo, I don't see how not running good removal like Black Sun's Zenith somehow makes for a more interactive game.

Mass creature removal is not necessarily bad, in moderation; killing the current creatures means people can play new ones and have them matter more.  Persecute, though, is even less fun in multiplayer games than in duels - now you're telling one player that he or she has to sit there and watch while everyone else keeps playing.

Btw, a good way to recognize "unfun" cards is if they make someone sit there and watch.  Persecute, Stasis and other locks, infinite combos, and mass LD can all have this effect, so you need to be very careful when considering if they should be put into a deck.

Thanks to everyone who helped with the design of the plane of Golamo in the Great Designer Search 2!
My Decks
These are the decks I have assembled at the moment:
Tournament Decks (4)
Kicker Aggro (Invasion Block) Sunforger/Izzet Guildmage Midrange (Ravnica/Time Spiral/Xth Standard) Dragonstorm Combo (Time Spiral/Lorwyn/Xth Standard) Bant Midrange (Lorwyn/Shards/M10 Standard)
Casual Multiplayer Decks (50)
Angel Resurrection Casual Soul Sisters Sindbad's Adventures with Djinn of Wishes Sphinx-Bone Wand Buyback Morph (No Instants or Sorceries) Cabal Coffers Control Zombie Aggro Hungry, Hungry Greater Gargadon/War Elemental Flashfires/Boil/Ruination - Boom! Call of the Wild Teysa, Orzhov Scion with Twilight Drover, Sun Titan, and Hivestone Slivers Rebels Cairn Wanderer Knights Only Gold and () Spells Captain Sisay Toolbox Spellweaver Helix Combo Merfolk Wizards Izzet Guildmage/The Unspeakable Arcane Combo Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and his Wizards Creatureless Wild Research/Reins of Power Madness Creatureless Pyromancer Ascension Anarchist Living Death Anvil of Bogardan Madness Shamen with Goblin Game/Wound Reflection Combo Mass damage Quest for Pure Flame Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle/Clear the Land with 40+ Lands Doubling Season Thallids Juniper Order Ranger Graft/Tokens Elf Archer Druids Equilibrium/Aluren Combo Experiment Kraj Combo Reap Combo False Cure/Kavu Predator Combo Savra, Queen of the Golgari Sacrifice/Dredge Elf Warriors Eight-Post Sneak Attack Where Ancients Tread Zur the Enchanter with Opal creatures Tamanoa/Kavu Predator/Collapsing Borders Esper Aggro Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and his Darksteel Reactor Theft and Control Unearth Aggro Soul's Fire Vampires Devour Tokens Phytohydra with Powerstone Minefield Treefolk Friendly? Questing Phelddagrif Slivers Dragon Arch Fun I'm probably forgetting a few...
I appreciated this article, though it was a bit vague.  I'd like to hear more about specific strategies for dealing with a cutthroat meta, both in and out of game.  My vision for Magic and most other forms of gaming has always been that you play games to have fun, and that you have no right to have your fun at the expense of everyone else's.  The ideal game to me is a cooperative fun experience, involving a great deal of negotiation and accomodating the wishes of others (which first requires you to learn how to verbalize your wishes, and translate the language of others doing the same, both of which are Serious Fun topics I'd like to see discussed - anyone have a psychologist or educator in your playgroup?).  The effortful task of figuring out how to render two-plus players' versions of fun compatible is something we need more study on.

Who are you, and what have you done with willpell?
Now I feel bad for using contamination. But that card is so deliciously eeevil in a black free meta. How could you resist?
IMAGE(http://www.projektstarwars.de/forum/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=16432&dateline=1299412590) Fallen Star Verlag Play Legacy! Decks: Legacy Natural Order/Hulk EDH Iname, Death Aspect / Rosheen Meanderer Casual Elves! I petition for the removal of the mythic rarity.
It means considering Consume the Meek over Black Sun's Zenith.


And then immediately dismissing it because bad players will complain regardless of what you play (not that I'm claiming casual players are bad, but rather players who throw a hissy fit over anything but the most dickish of strategies generally are). 

Zammm = Batman.

It's my sig in a box
58280208 wrote:
Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
192334281 wrote:
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
57092228 wrote:
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
56995928 wrote:
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
144543765 wrote:
195392035 wrote:
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
117639611 wrote:
198869283 wrote:
Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
A turn two Tibalt win?! Wicked... Betcha don't see that everyday.

The Pony Co. 

Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other Barry
57461258 wrote:
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
57461258 wrote:
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
57461258 wrote:
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
92481331 wrote:
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now. O' Jesus Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle. Amen.
92481331 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
[quote=ArtVenn You're still one of my favorite people... just sayin'.[/quote]
56756068 wrote:
56786788 wrote:
.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
57526128 wrote:
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
57042968 wrote:
111809331 wrote:
I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
56287226 wrote:
98088088 wrote:
Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
56965458 wrote:
Show
57461258 wrote:
116498949 wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_... Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right? Right.
57545908 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
58397368 wrote:
58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
57471038 wrote:
57718868 wrote:
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
71235715 wrote:
+10
100176878 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
57078538 wrote:
heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.

I hate to strike a dissenting chord here, but it seems to me that one angle not being explored here is Styborski's play which left him open to that brutal Persecute He kept a two land hand with no serious action before turn four.  Even in slow formats such as EDH, this is a mistake and I think you just have to accept the consquences when the lands/early plays don't flow from that.  I think this would be an interesting article:  which early plays make the game "fun" later.




He sayed Genises Wave was spoiled during Rise.  Oops.

Are you scared?

He sayed Genises Wave was spoiled during Rise.  Oops.



During =/= for.
I think combo decks are getting a bad rap here.  In my opinion, combo decks encourage interactivity, in the sense that they punish non-interactivity.

Sure, my Sunbeam Spellbomb/Auriok Salvagers/Zur's Weirding lock may prevent you from drawing cards for the rest of the game, but there were ways to stop it from happening, even if that way was just "attack more". (Also, cards with Flashback work).

Now, granted, a metagame composed of only combo decks can be boring (even if it is the ideal metagame for you to show off what your deck can do and let others do the same).  However, this is a self-correcting problem, because in that scenario every player except the player with the fastest combo has an incentive to play more disruption in their decks.  As the prevalence of disruption increases, combo players have to adapt their strategies to capitalize on what is not being disrupted, or attempt to win in a more robust (albeit less spectacular) fashion and repeatedly attack with creatures.  In short, combo decks are at their best when combo decks are rare.
"We will all be purified in Wurm. What is good will be used to heal Wurm, or grow Wurm, or to fuel Wurm's path. What is vile will be extruded, and we will be free of it forever." --Prophet of the Cult of Wurm
I just played a guy with a combo decks. Four players, two rounds, several hours. Let's say he didn't add any "fun" to the table so to speak. That's because his entire gameplan was playing with himself. He drew cards, he tutored, he played mana dudes, played some combo pieces. That was it. Disrupting him wasn't fun, it was boring.
In several hours and two games the only actual events he actually started: destroy all lands and win the game afterwards. The other game he was annihilated because he was so defenseless.
If don't mind combo, I play control/combo myself, but you should play cards that interact with others. Nobody wants to sit there watching you masturbating with your cards. I'm sorry, but it's the truth.
IMAGE(http://www.projektstarwars.de/forum/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=16432&dateline=1299412590) Fallen Star Verlag Play Legacy! Decks: Legacy Natural Order/Hulk EDH Iname, Death Aspect / Rosheen Meanderer Casual Elves! I petition for the removal of the mythic rarity.
Turn three extraplanar lens, imprinting one of my islands. Risky, but I needed to start catching up with the green acceleration.

Turn four Fact or Fiction. Reveal five cards which quickly get split into a pile of four "okay" cards, and a lonesome Consecrated Sphinx, all on its own.

Turn five, Consecrated Sphinx. One player declares the game done, but the other two manage to get him to stay.

Turn six, Gauntlet of Power, calling blue.

Did I mention that my commander is Kira, Great Glass-Spinner? Thats pretty important.

My field, while still susceptible to nine different sorts of field wipe, has near total control of the field. I'm capable of pumping out 18 mana for my various uses, and I've somehow out-ramped the green. And with things like Vedalken Orrery, Echo Mage (leveled),  and my general on the field, and with creature steal and counter in hand, I've become the number one target.

The player who threatened to leave tries to kill my general with his (Drana). Pays 2B and 0 for the first attempt, which is auto-countered. Pays 2B and 2 for the second attempt, going for the kill. I point out that Gauntlet of Power is boosting his toughness by 1. I was about to offer to let him tap the extra mana when he just leaves.

My turn again. A mystical tutor and some minor draw power lead to a Rite of Replication in hand. I easily have the 9 mana to make that Hero of Bladehold on the field my own personal army.

But my hearts just not in it anymore.
I play this game to have fun. My ED--Commander deck is built around Kira because he is cheap, and because he counters, both things vital for my survival in my group of friends. I don't usually play Blue unless its a support color, like in my Bant decks. From there I added creature steal, since I know my friends like to play large creature, or ones with nasty effects. A few tweaks later and I have a deck ready to counter this, steal that, and laugh manically as it tears someone apart with their general and his long lost identical twin (courtesy of Sakashima ).

I love that deck. I love what it can do. Its not even so bad that it always wins. In fact, in big games, it rarely does, because everyone I seem to put it up against fears what "might" happen the minute they see my general. And I don't even blame them anymore. I'm scared to pull the deck out now. I don't want to ruin the game for anyone. I just want to have fun.

Where did this come from? 
I just played a guy with a combo decks. Four players, two rounds, several hours. Let's say he didn't add any "fun" to the table so to speak. That's because his entire gameplan was playing with himself. He drew cards, he tutored, he played mana dudes, played some combo pieces. That was it. Disrupting him wasn't fun, it was boring.
In several hours and two games the only actual events he actually started: destroy all lands and win the game afterwards. The other game he was annihilated because he was so defenseless.
If don't mind combo, I play control/combo myself, but you should play cards that interact with others. Nobody wants to sit there watching you masturbating with your cards. I'm sorry, but it's the truth.



This is a good example of why, in multiplayer, you should always attack the player who appears weakest, not the player who appears strongest or the player who attacked you last.  If your group's play philosophy is to only attack the biggest threat, you provide an incentive for four-player solitaire. 

If your group had been focused on attacking the player least able to defend herself or himself, that combo would have never gone off, and the combo player would have to alter his deck to include ways to disrupt everyone else's disruption. 
"We will all be purified in Wurm. What is good will be used to heal Wurm, or grow Wurm, or to fuel Wurm's path. What is vile will be extruded, and we will be free of it forever." --Prophet of the Cult of Wurm
I just played a guy with a combo decks. Four players, two rounds, several hours. Let's say he didn't add any "fun" to the table so to speak. That's because his entire gameplan was playing with himself. He drew cards, he tutored, he played mana dudes, played some combo pieces. That was it. Disrupting him wasn't fun, it was boring.
In several hours and two games the only actual events he actually started: destroy all lands and win the game afterwards. The other game he was annihilated because he was so defenseless.
If don't mind combo, I play control/combo myself, but you should play cards that interact with others. Nobody wants to sit there watching you masturbating with your cards. I'm sorry, but it's the truth.



This is a good example of why, in multiplayer, you should always attack the player who appears weakest, not the player who appears strongest or the player who attacked you last.  If your group's play philosophy is to only attack the biggest threat, you provide an incentive for four-player solitaire. 

If your group had been focused on attacking the player least able to defend herself or himself, that combo would have never gone off, and the combo player would have to alter his deck to include ways to disrupt everyone else's disruption. 



Every time I do this I get called an ignorant noob.
This is a good example of why, in multiplayer, you should always attack the player who appears weakest, not the player who appears strongest or the player who attacked you last.  If your group's play philosophy is to only attack the biggest threat, you provide an incentive for four-player solitaire. 

If your group had been focused on attacking the player least able to defend herself or himself, that combo would have never gone off, and the combo player would have to alter his deck to include ways to disrupt everyone else's disruption. 



Every time I do this I get called an ignorant noob.



Haters gotta hate, yo.
"We will all be purified in Wurm. What is good will be used to heal Wurm, or grow Wurm, or to fuel Wurm's path. What is vile will be extruded, and we will be free of it forever." --Prophet of the Cult of Wurm
I attack the weak ones first because it causes forward momentum in the game without creating strife between me and the players who are capable of hurting me. Anything beyond that is gravy.
This is a good example of why, in multiplayer, you should always attack the player who appears weakest, not the player who appears strongest or the player who attacked you last.  If your group's play philosophy is to only attack the biggest threat, you provide an incentive for four-player solitaire. 

If your group had been focused on attacking the player least able to defend herself or himself, that combo would have never gone off, and the combo player would have to alter his deck to include ways to disrupt everyone else's disruption.


I don't really agree. In a casual game, you should try to attack the players who are the greatest threat to you.  Picking on someone who is weak, either because they have mana problems or have a weak deck, is just just mean (unless they do actually pose a threat to you).

You should distinguish actual weakness, of course, from someone simply trying to lie low until they can combo out.

Thanks to everyone who helped with the design of the plane of Golamo in the Great Designer Search 2!
My Decks
These are the decks I have assembled at the moment:
Tournament Decks (4)
Kicker Aggro (Invasion Block) Sunforger/Izzet Guildmage Midrange (Ravnica/Time Spiral/Xth Standard) Dragonstorm Combo (Time Spiral/Lorwyn/Xth Standard) Bant Midrange (Lorwyn/Shards/M10 Standard)
Casual Multiplayer Decks (50)
Angel Resurrection Casual Soul Sisters Sindbad's Adventures with Djinn of Wishes Sphinx-Bone Wand Buyback Morph (No Instants or Sorceries) Cabal Coffers Control Zombie Aggro Hungry, Hungry Greater Gargadon/War Elemental Flashfires/Boil/Ruination - Boom! Call of the Wild Teysa, Orzhov Scion with Twilight Drover, Sun Titan, and Hivestone Slivers Rebels Cairn Wanderer Knights Only Gold and () Spells Captain Sisay Toolbox Spellweaver Helix Combo Merfolk Wizards Izzet Guildmage/The Unspeakable Arcane Combo Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and his Wizards Creatureless Wild Research/Reins of Power Madness Creatureless Pyromancer Ascension Anarchist Living Death Anvil of Bogardan Madness Shamen with Goblin Game/Wound Reflection Combo Mass damage Quest for Pure Flame Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle/Clear the Land with 40+ Lands Doubling Season Thallids Juniper Order Ranger Graft/Tokens Elf Archer Druids Equilibrium/Aluren Combo Experiment Kraj Combo Reap Combo False Cure/Kavu Predator Combo Savra, Queen of the Golgari Sacrifice/Dredge Elf Warriors Eight-Post Sneak Attack Where Ancients Tread Zur the Enchanter with Opal creatures Tamanoa/Kavu Predator/Collapsing Borders Esper Aggro Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and his Darksteel Reactor Theft and Control Unearth Aggro Soul's Fire Vampires Devour Tokens Phytohydra with Powerstone Minefield Treefolk Friendly? Questing Phelddagrif Slivers Dragon Arch Fun I'm probably forgetting a few...
I just played a guy with a combo decks. Four players, two rounds, several hours. Let's say he didn't add any "fun" to the table so to speak. That's because his entire gameplan was playing with himself. He drew cards, he tutored, he played mana dudes, played some combo pieces. That was it. Disrupting him wasn't fun, it was boring.
In several hours and two games the only actual events he actually started: destroy all lands and win the game afterwards. The other game he was annihilated because he was so defenseless.
If don't mind combo, I play control/combo myself, but you should play cards that interact with others. Nobody wants to sit there watching you masturbating with your cards. I'm sorry, but it's the truth.



This is a good example of why, in multiplayer, you should always attack the player who appears weakest, not the player who appears strongest or the player who attacked you last.  If your group's play philosophy is to only attack the biggest threat, you provide an incentive for four-player solitaire. 

If your group had been focused on attacking the player least able to defend herself or himself, that combo would have never gone off, and the combo player would have to alter his deck to include ways to disrupt everyone else's disruption. 



We did. That's why he lost first game pretty soon.
Second game ... well, he nuked all lands turn 7 or 8 and I (MBC) killed all the critters before that happened. After that, players couldn't recover 'til he won. Now, I'm not citizising his "nuke all lands", but the rest of what he did.
IMAGE(http://www.projektstarwars.de/forum/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=16432&dateline=1299412590) Fallen Star Verlag Play Legacy! Decks: Legacy Natural Order/Hulk EDH Iname, Death Aspect / Rosheen Meanderer Casual Elves! I petition for the removal of the mythic rarity.
 I don't really agree. In a casual game, you should try to attack the players who are the greatest threat to you.  Picking on someone who is weak, either because they have mana problems or have a weak deck, is just just mean (unless they do actually pose a threat to you).

You should distinguish actual weakness, of course, from someone simply trying to lie low until they can combo out.



The problem is that you can't always tell.  

Besides, there are only two kinds of opponents in Multiplayer:  those who are a threat, and those who will be a threat.  If you're in a position where you can do a lot of damage to another player, you have to assume that, if it's not a combo deck, it's a deck with most of it's threats at the expensive end of the mana curve.  If you let that player continue to build her or his mana base, then their creatures are going to ultimately outclass yours (since your creatures can attack now).

It's not mean to attack them now.  Just recognize that you brought a knife to a gun fight.  Are you going to wait for them to finish loading their gun? 
"We will all be purified in Wurm. What is good will be used to heal Wurm, or grow Wurm, or to fuel Wurm's path. What is vile will be extruded, and we will be free of it forever." --Prophet of the Cult of Wurm
The problem is that you can't always tell.Besides, there are only two kinds of opponents in Multiplayer:  those who are a threat, and those who will be a threat.  If you're in a position where you can do a lot of damage to another player, you have to assume that, if it's not a combo deck, it's a deck with most of it's threats at the expensive end of the mana curve.  If you let that player continue to build her or his mana base, then their creatures are going to ultimately outclass yours (since your creatures can attack now).

It's not mean to attack them now.  Just recognize that you brought a knife to a gun fight.  Are you going to wait for them to finish loading their gun?

I guess it depends upon the degree to which you know your opponents.  In my regular group, there's a range both of player strengths, and also of deck strengths within a given player's collection.  The level of aggression I need to apply immediately is reduced if I know player A is running his mono-Green Tron deck rather than Enduring Renewal combo, and reduced further if he's using mono-Green Treefolk rather than mono-Green Tron.  If player A is running the Treefolk deck, but has a weak start, while someone else has a stronger deck with better defense, the more sporting thing for me to do is to go after the stronger deck.  It probably gives me a better overall chance of winning, gives player A a chance to get back into the game, and sends everyone the message that hey, you don't have to play your most powerful deck every time just to have a chance.
Thanks to everyone who helped with the design of the plane of Golamo in the Great Designer Search 2!
My Decks
These are the decks I have assembled at the moment:
Tournament Decks (4)
Kicker Aggro (Invasion Block) Sunforger/Izzet Guildmage Midrange (Ravnica/Time Spiral/Xth Standard) Dragonstorm Combo (Time Spiral/Lorwyn/Xth Standard) Bant Midrange (Lorwyn/Shards/M10 Standard)
Casual Multiplayer Decks (50)
Angel Resurrection Casual Soul Sisters Sindbad's Adventures with Djinn of Wishes Sphinx-Bone Wand Buyback Morph (No Instants or Sorceries) Cabal Coffers Control Zombie Aggro Hungry, Hungry Greater Gargadon/War Elemental Flashfires/Boil/Ruination - Boom! Call of the Wild Teysa, Orzhov Scion with Twilight Drover, Sun Titan, and Hivestone Slivers Rebels Cairn Wanderer Knights Only Gold and () Spells Captain Sisay Toolbox Spellweaver Helix Combo Merfolk Wizards Izzet Guildmage/The Unspeakable Arcane Combo Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and his Wizards Creatureless Wild Research/Reins of Power Madness Creatureless Pyromancer Ascension Anarchist Living Death Anvil of Bogardan Madness Shamen with Goblin Game/Wound Reflection Combo Mass damage Quest for Pure Flame Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle/Clear the Land with 40+ Lands Doubling Season Thallids Juniper Order Ranger Graft/Tokens Elf Archer Druids Equilibrium/Aluren Combo Experiment Kraj Combo Reap Combo False Cure/Kavu Predator Combo Savra, Queen of the Golgari Sacrifice/Dredge Elf Warriors Eight-Post Sneak Attack Where Ancients Tread Zur the Enchanter with Opal creatures Tamanoa/Kavu Predator/Collapsing Borders Esper Aggro Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and his Darksteel Reactor Theft and Control Unearth Aggro Soul's Fire Vampires Devour Tokens Phytohydra with Powerstone Minefield Treefolk Friendly? Questing Phelddagrif Slivers Dragon Arch Fun I'm probably forgetting a few...