Disciple of Winds + Polearm Momementum

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Besides being cheesy is there a reason that the following should not work.

Shaman with disciple of winds paragon path gets to slide the target of any primal healing power 1 square as the level 11 feature.  Get a totemic spear (spear for an implement) and rushing cleats (add 1 to slide/push with melee or close attacks).  Mc fighter and take the polearm momentum feat (use spear attack to push or slide target more than 2 squares they are knocked prone).

When you target an enemy with any offensive shaman healing power you then slide the enemy 2 squares and knock it prone.  This would work best with bear shamans since their opportunity action  Spirit Shield is a healing power, but the target is an enemy.  Eagle shamans would qualify for it easier.  Shamans have 8 healing spirit melee attacks and another 6 close healing attacks, including some that are party friendly close blast/burst 5.

They have a good number of other melee/close attacks that push and slide if you go for a different paragon path, but use the same trick.
As long as the power has an implement keyword and your implement is the spear then yeah you can use polearm momentum. Some might argue that the slide is a triggered effect that is not part of the power but I see it as adding to the power. There is some interpretation in how abilities modify powers.
Is your shaman using good close or melee healing powers that target enemies that often to justify 2 feats, MC option, and power plus weapon choices (granted most totems suck)?
Spirit's Shield is at-will but if you make it stop movement in addition to healing an ally - it will get triggered pretty much never. It is ok if you wan't to make your cmpanion sticky I guess...
Other than that - yes it works as you assume.
Nice trick/find -- Bear shamans, Ho!

(This find probably bumps Disciple of Winds a notch above Disciple of the World Serpent in my book...)
I noticed another thing to add.  Give the shaman a 1 handed spear totem and a light shield and hindering shield feat and you now slide 2, knock prone, and slow.  That is another 2 feats when you count the shield proficiency, but the light shield feat is a good feat to take anyways and bear shamans should have the strength for it.

Is your shaman using good close or melee healing powers that target enemies that often to justify 2 feats, MC option, and power plus weapon choices (granted most totems suck)?



A lot of the better shaman power options are already either close/melee healing or close/melee slide/push options.  By my quick count about 1 out of 6 shaman attack powers work with this trick.

The main opportunity cost is getting dex to qualify for polearm momentum in paragon which is going to require a starting 14 in dex for most bear shamans which means for something like a dwarf 13 14 14 10 16 8.  The wrathful warrior feat is a pretty good one for bear shamans however and mc fighter also gives you access to wary fighter, hindering shield, and grit if you want those.
Roger the Hindering Shield feat...great synergy for a 'controllery' leader. Personally I think Hindering Shield should be errata'd to only work with powers that require the use of a shield like Tide of Iron (it is a fighter feat after all; seems silly strong for implement users).

On the topic of bear shamans, don't forget to take Protector's Shield feat! Now all your spirit opportunity attacks deal a damage roll, and you get all those nice damage modifiers that only tack on DR's...
Now all your spirit opportunity attacks deal a damage roll, and you get all those nice damage modifiers that only tack on DR's...



Most common misconception in Charop. Extra damage rolls do not benefit from modifiers that apply to 'damage rolls'
Oh Content, where art thou?
Most common misconception in Charop. Extra damage rolls do not benefit from modifiers that apply to 'damage rolls'

Would you care to post rules text to back that up? I fully agree it probably isn't RAI, but there is no RAW text to support that position (and the two lines that sort of kind of implied it are gone, the RC rephrased them).
Oh wow, I never thought of it that way.

Okay, so let's see- I add my bonuses for every damage roll. So howling strike does 1W+1d6- so they all add twice to the power. I throw on 1d6 extra damage from somewhere, and everything adds three times. I can think of several item dailies that add extra damage rolls, so I can multiply all my bonuses by 30, oh whoooo hoooo I've found a new DPRking-yeah no.
Oh Content, where art thou?
I believe the bonuses are adding only once, just that the adding of an extra damage die to a power that does static damage makes it eligible for the bonus that otherwise would not be applied at all.
Oh wow, I never thought of it that way.

Okay, so let's see- I add my bonuses for every damage roll. So howling strike does 1W+1d6- so they all add twice to the power. I throw on 1d6 extra damage from somewhere, and everything adds three times. I can think of several item dailies that add extra damage rolls, so I can multiply all my bonuses by 30, oh whoooo hoooo I've found a new DPRking-yeah no.

Except extra damage is part of the damage roll, and bonuses only apply once per damage roll (not per die). The issue, which you aren't seeing, is that adding extra damage, that is a roll, to a power that does a static amount of damage (no roll) now gets mods, by RAW, because it has a damage roll. Which means your correction was incorrect, by RAW. Not arguing intentions, just actual text. If you'd like to support your position, you are welcome to do so. I'd be grateful if you could, honestly, but I've been over all the relevenant entries extensively and cannot find a basis for it.
Oh wow, I never thought of it that way.

Okay, so let's see- I add my bonuses for every damage roll. So howling strike does 1W+1d6- so they all add twice to the power. I throw on 1d6 extra damage from somewhere, and everything adds three times. I can think of several item dailies that add extra damage rolls, so I can multiply all my bonuses by 30, oh whoooo hoooo I've found a new DPRking-yeah no.



"Irrational hyperbole" meet "bonuses from same named game element don't stack"
I'm aware they don't stack. I'm also aware that as per the RC, they only apply to the base damage roll, and as per the RC, extra damage is not considered part of the base damage roll.
Oh Content, where art thou?
I'm aware they don't stack. I'm also aware that as per the RC, they only apply to the base damage roll, and as per the RC, extra damage is not considered part of the base damage roll.

Again, would you like to quote rules text to support your position? Extra damage is actually considered part of the power's damage roll, which is why Extra Damage adds keywords to the power (because the keyword rule is if a power does a damage of a type, it gains that keyword). So that is actually explicit in the rules, and you are again incorrect.

Go read the relevant sections, the rule you think exists does not.
I'm aware they don't stack. I'm also aware that as per the RC, they only apply to the base damage roll, and as per the RC, extra damage is not considered part of the base damage roll.



But as of RC, there is no such thing as a "base damage roll". You just combine all the damage dealt in an instance, and if any dice were rolled, it was a damage roll, which may make other bonuses applicable.
Besides being cheesy is there a reason that the following should not work.

Shaman with disciple of winds paragon path gets to slide the target of any primal healing power 1 square as the level 11 feature.  Get a totemic spear (spear for an implement) and rushing cleats (add 1 to slide/push with melee or close attacks).  Mc fighter and take the polearm momentum feat (use spear attack to push or slide target more than 2 squares they are knocked prone).

When you target an enemy with any offensive shaman healing power you then slide the enemy 2 squares and knock it prone.  This would work best with bear shamans since their opportunity action  Spirit Shield is a healing power, but the target is an enemy.  Eagle shamans would qualify for it easier.  Shamans have 8 healing spirit melee attacks and another 6 close healing attacks, including some that are party friendly close blast/burst 5.

They have a good number of other melee/close attacks that push and slide if you go for a different paragon path, but use the same trick.



Maybe it has been hashed out elsewhere, but I would disagree from the start. Polearm Momentum says:
Heroic Tier
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Wis 15, fighter
Benefit: Whenever you use a polearm or a spear attack to push or slide a target 2 or more squares, you can also knock that target prone at the end of the forced movement.

You are not using a polearm or spear attack, you are making an implement attack with an implement that happens to be a spear. This feat may need to be more specifically worded, but it pretty clearly refers to making a weapon attack.

As you say, if your DM allows you to do it, then by all means.

RAW this works.

There are plenty of feats that use the word "weapon" or have the term "weapon feat" in them to restrict it to weapon attacks.  They did that with polearm gamble for instance.

Several feats: polearm momentum, bow mastery, spear push, manuevering attack, polearm flanker, among others do not and as such they work for both weapons and implements.

This trick is a bit cheesy since the shaman is in a unique position to make melee implement attacks while 20 squares away from the target, but your reasoning also denies monks, assasins, warlocks and other weapliment users the ability use these tricks when using weapliments while right next to the enemy.