68 posts / 0 new

## Pages

mellored
Joined Jul 2008
29220 Posts
Just figuring out how much damage an expanded crit-range is really worth.  Compaired to say... weapon focus.

1) Many things can trigger off it crits, Special stuff (listed below).  I'm going to discount those as well and just focus on damage, but you should not.

2) It's not accuracy depenand.  If you hit on a 11, weapon focus is worth 1.5, if you hit on a 2, it's worth 2.8.  Crit's are worth the same no matter what (assuming you hit on an 18, which i am).

3) It's independant of your damage mod.  It only maximizes dice, thus a 1d6 + 400 attack will see as much gain as a 1d6+1.

4) Can be wasted with overkill.  The monster with 25 HP doesn't care that you did 80 damage when you rolled a 19 instead of 40, nor do minions.  I know of no way of factoring this in, but simply put increasing your minimum damage is better then increasing your maximium damage (in the event of a tie, Weapon Focus wins).

I will be assuming 6d6 crit dice, with the 19-20 crit feat.
[sblock Math]
The equasion is (crit dice + max base dice - average base dice) * .05 (extra chance to crit).
Max = 2*(average-.5 * dice thrown), with a little factoring..

(21 + 2*(average-.5 * dice thrown) - average) *.05
(21 + 2*average- 1 * dice trown - average)*.05
(21 - dice trown + 2* average - average)*.05
[/sblock]
, we end up with...

(crit dice (21) + average dice - dice trown)* crit expansion (.05)

18-20 double the gain
17-20 tripple the gain
Avengers or other who get re-rolls (sage of ages) multiply by .09 instead of .05.

Base               Gain         WF hit rate*
d6's
7   (2d6)         1.3           .43
14 (4d6)         1.55         .52
21 (6d6)         1.8           .6
28 (8d6)         2.05         .68
35 (10d6)       2.3           .77
42 (12d6)       2.55         .85
49 (14d6)       2.8           .93

d12's
13 (2d12)       1.6           .53
26 (4d12)       2.15         .72
39 (6d12)       2.7           .9

Higher crit dice
HighCrit (d12)  +.975
d8                    +.3
d10                  +.6
d12                  +.9
Ring of Giants  +.6
Bloodiron         +2.25

"Special" [sblock crit stuff]This is not exaustive, and many stack.

Epic Resurgence = regain an encounter
Two Weapon Opening = MBA
ardent champion = MBA
punisher of the gods = Standard Action
Rune of Battle = MBA for an ally.
Enabling Shot = MBA for an ally.
Glasya’s Charming Words = Dominate.
The Fading One - Touch from Beyond = Stunned.
Triumphant Attack = encounter long penalty.
[/sblock]

*The hit rate you need for Weapon Focus to add the same damage as the expanded crit range.  (gain / 3)

Conclusion: Unless you have something special (see above) that happens on a crit, weapon focus > expand crit range**.  Of course more damage is more damage, but generally without something special going on, it's not worth playing 20 levels worth of sub-par stats to get the 19-20 crit feat in epic.

**With high crit, or lot's of dice, expanded crit range will beat out weapon focus, but after factoring in overkill, it's still likely not worth it.  You really need something special.

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

rian_king
Joined Sep 2008
4148 Posts
The math all seems right.  I hope your not saying the expanded crit is not worth it.  If I had to choose one over another then yes but I will want to take both
talavar
Joined May 2009
360 Posts
That's just for a 2d6 weapon. I imagine with a D12 weapon you'd find the results much closer.

EDIT: The bigger the dice the better expanded crit range will be as the max damage becomes higher than the average damage.
mellored
Joined Jul 2008
29220 Posts
The math all seems right.  I hope your not saying the expanded crit is not worth it.  If I had to choose one over another then yes but I will want to take both

Depends on how feat tight you are or what your trying to build.  Though i think most hand-books may need adjusting rate crit-range over weapon focus.  That should change.

That's just for a 2d6 weapon. I imagine with a D12 weapon you'd find the results much closer.

EDIT: The bigger the dice the better expanded crit range will be as the max damage becomes higher than the average damage.

Did a small table for d12's,  they fair better, but they still loose to weapon focus.

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

GelatinousOctahedron
Joined Jun 2008
5782 Posts
In terms of straight damage with basic items, yes, but so many other things can happen when you crit.  If you have a feat like heavenly torrent, are playing a barbarian, or have an item like champions symbol then you should be caring about more than the immediate damage output.   That is where much of the real value of an expanded crit range comes from for many characters.

A cleric with a symbol of censure cares more about the dazed effect they can potentially throw out twice as often with a big AoE power with an expanded crit range than they do about the extra damage they get when they crit.

You also need to consider what happens with a high crit weapon, which if you are using a full blade is adding 3d12 at epic on a crit, so that is an average of (edited to change number) 1.95 more per attack.
tiornys
Joined Feb 2002
3278 Posts
How does High Crit change things?  How about extra attacks generated by crits?

t~

edit: hmm, ninja'ed by good answers to my questions
mellored
Joined Jul 2008
29220 Posts
In terms of straight damage with basic items, yes, but so many other things can happen when you crit.  If you have a feat like heavenly torrent, are playing a barbarian, or have an item like champions symbol then you should be caring about more than the immediate damage output.   That is where much of the real value of an expanded crit range comes from for many characters.

I agree, though i moved and bolded the sentence about it.
How does High Crit change things?

Added a d12 high crit.  Which makes expanded crit-rage better then WF.

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Mengu74
Joined Nov 2007
3328 Posts
You (typically) can't control when a crit happens. This leads to random stuff like critting minions or monsters low on hit points that a normal hit would have killed anyway, critting with a power that does no dice damage, critting the ally that happened to be in the burst, etc. As awesome as it is to open up on a fresh monster with a crit, it just doesn't happen often enough to make it a reliable tactic.

Expanded crit range is just another tool that takes up a build slot. For some characters it's certainly better than for others. Sometimes healing or handing out THP's on a crit (like Lion's Heart Hammer) end up being a pretty good deal. But crits tend to reduce the life expectancy of a monster already, so extra conditions that happen on a crit are less likely to come into play in my experience.
kilpatds
Joined Nov 2003
5250 Posts
When playing around with similar comparisons for Avengers, I got to the point where I thought of Crit Range as an entry feat.  Even with almost doubling the odds of a crit, by itsself it's usually not worth that much.  (Although my numbers, including a High Crit assumption, did put it ahead of Weapon Focus).

But Two Weapon Opening?  That's worth a lot.  (Or a Rending Axe.  Or Bloodiron.  Or Harmony Blade.  Or Stunning on crit.  Or Punishing Radiance)

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

mellored
Joined Jul 2008
29220 Posts
I thought of Crit Range as an entry feat

That's a good way to think about it.  Less as a direct damage feat, and more for opening up other option.

Though i still think some handbooks might need adjusting.

Edit: put that in the first post.

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Joined Oct 2010
12480 Posts
Pure maths, WF probably wins.  But you can;t beat critting on a 19 or 18 for sheer satisfaction.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Mand12
Joined Jun 2010
17444 Posts
Firstly, I disagree with your premise.  You clearly state the assumption for your theory is that you're looking only at the effects of damage, but the most powerful and important things that are improved by expanded critical ranges aren't mere damage.

I don't think you can possibly break it down to a simple comparison to weapon focus and have it be meaningful advice to give as part of character design.  I mean, if you have anything at all that happens on crits, expanded crit range is one of the best things you can get because the power budget for those effects assume 5% of rolls.

That said, it's still a useful calculation to be incorporated as one component into a larger theory of the effects of expanded criticals.  As far as the actual math, I'm assuming you're performing these calculations at epic, with +3 for weapon focus?  If that's the case, then consider the amount of damage typical powers are actually using.

Let's take your d6 table and compare to, say, a barbarian using a 2d6 weapon:

21 (6d6)         1.8           .6
28 (8d6)         2.05         .68
35 (10d6)       2.3           .77
42 (12d6)       2.55         .85

Howling Strike lands in at 7d6 at epic, putting your expected hit rate at (interpolating here) .64.  65% hit rate is what is typically assumed for CharOp calculations, is it not?  So it's basically dead even here on the typical well-built character.

But that's only for an at-will power.  When looking at encounters and dailies, crit becomes better because E and D use more dice.  Berserker's Shout, as an example, is E23 and does 5[W], bumping the dice for the attack up to 10d6.  Now you're at 77% hit rate for WF to become better, but that's a +2 over what is typically assumed.  For a typical well-built character, crit is better than WF for the encounter power.  E27s have even higher dice counts - Butcher's Feast is up to 12d6, and an 85% hit rate.

Dailies are even more significant, but I think you get the idea.  You should at least state what "total noob" "moderate optimization" and "max to hit" hit rates are, and what thresholds of damage you should be looking for to help decide between the two feats.  The specific powers in question are important - if you're going for max damage from each power you take, then crit becomes more important.  If you're going for more status effects that eat up power budget, then WF might be more efficient.

One minor note is that "benefit 2" of expanded crit isn't relevant - the damage you get from increased critical range isn't affected by your static mod but neither is weapon focus.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
aurance
Joined Feb 2008
117 Posts
Firstly, I disagree with your premise.  You clearly state the assumption for your theory is that you're looking only at the effects of damage, but the most powerful and important things that are improved by expanded critical ranges aren't mere damage.

I don't think you can possibly break it down to a simple comparison to weapon focus and have it be meaningful advice to give as part of character design.  I mean, if you have anything at all that happens on crits, expanded crit range is one of the best things you can get because the power budget for those effects assume 5% of rolls.

What premise? He said the same thing you did, that he's calculating the numbers, but other effects make expanded crit more powerful.

The advice is meaningful precisely because you can then assign a certain value to expanded crit range by itself, vs. it + other things.

mellored
Joined Jul 2008
29220 Posts
Someone want to add this to the Collection?

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Noctaem
Joined Mar 2010
4779 Posts
last session i rolled 3 20's in a row while attacking with minions.  I had a 1 in 8000 chance to pull that off.  And I did 6 damage to the player. :'(
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"
kilpatds
Joined Nov 2003
5250 Posts
"Minions do double damage on a crit" is a not-unheard-of house rule.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

songnsilence
Joined Jun 2007
1307 Posts
J
Conclusion: Unless you have something that happens on a crit (including high crit), weapon focus > expand crit range.  So consider expanded crit range more like a multiclass feat.  It's give a ok bonus by itself, but you really take it to gain access to other stuff.

Hi mellored,

i find your conclusion to be somewhat misleading: it should maybe read "Unless absolutely nothing happens on a crit, weapon focus < expanded crit range". As written above, it might implicate that no effects on crits are actually common in real builds at lvl 21. (i've never seen a player that didn't at least have a lvl 13 ring of giants @21, most Strikers will get a secondary attack on a crit like barbarian rampage, two weapon opening, spellfury etc.)

The table itself is also a bit problematic as a base for general conclusions, since many weapons don't have enh*d6, but enh*d8, enh*d10 or even enh*d12 on crit (and an outlier with 2*enh*d10)

But most importantly, feat bonus vs expanded crit range is not a consideration at all: if your build can meet the stat prereqs for expanded crit range, you should always take both, even if the build is extremely feat starved.

So in short, the math is valid, but the scope is a bit too narrow to draw a useful conclusion for general optimization choices and recommendations...

Sorry for so much criticism

Kurald_Galain
Joined Aug 2007
1632 Posts

I don't think it's misleading. Many people (and guides) claim that the expanded crit is the Mandatory thing that Everybody Must Take Immediately at level 21, and it turns out that mathematically, this has no basis in fact.

Sure, many characters have something special happening on a crit, but conversely many others don't - and there are also certain builds that have trouble getting the necessary stats for the expanded critical feat. So these can rest easy knowing that there are other options.

For example, you can spend two feats on "knocking prone on a crit" and "+5% crit chance", but this does cost you two feats which you could have spent on something else. If the latter isn't an automatic pick, then neither is the former.
GelatinousOctahedron
Joined Jun 2008
5782 Posts
I think its useful to know since if you have something like a battle cleric with a longsword or lifeblood warden with a craghammer where nothing special happens on a crit.  Expanded crit range is mandatory for strikerish builds and builds where something special happens on a crit, but for some defender and leader builds it is not mandatory and they are better off with weapon focus if they have to make a choice about what feat to take and stat allocation.
songnsilence
Joined Jun 2007
1307 Posts

I don't think it's misleading. Many people (and guides) claim that the expanded crit is the Mandatory thing that Everybody Must Take Immediately at level 21, and it turns out that mathematically, this has no basis in fact.

This is exactly what i meant with a misleading conclusion: melloreds conclusion isn't wrong (due to his self-limitaiton to a speciifc scenario) - but what people can easily read into it, as demonstrated by your post, is wrong.

Mathematcally, expanded crit range is usually one of the best feat choices in epic, which is why many people (including myself) and guides rate it very highly.

mellored
Joined Jul 2008
29220 Posts
most Strikers will get a secondary attack on a crit like barbarian rampage, two weapon opening, spellfury etc.

I've already highlighed it on top, and stated it again in the conclusion.  If you missed that, there's little i can do.

Also, most strikers will already have weapon focus, and most characters don't have anything special on crits.  Runepriest, fighters, battleminds, thiefs, wizards, ect..  Should all take WF first.

i've never seen a player that didn't at least have a lvl 13 ring of giants @21.
...
The table itself is also a bit problematic as a base for general conclusions, since many weapons don't have enh*d6, but enh*d8, enh*d10 or even enh*d12 on crit (and an outlier with 2*enh*d10)

Added higher crit dice and ring of giants (which effectivly increases crit dice by 2 sizes).

I'd call Ring of giants (or d10 crits) + crit range to be = with weapon focus.  Generally i would still advise against it, as WF + ring of circling fangs would be more damage.
But most importantly, feat bonus vs expanded crit range is not a consideration at all

I really dont' recall many other feat bonuses to damage, except race specific ones, so i don't see this as a valid point either.  (plus multi-crit range increases don't stack either).

Sorry for so much criticism

Critisism is welcome.  I want the right answer, not to be right.

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

songnsilence
Joined Jun 2007
1307 Posts
most Strikers will get a secondary attack on a crit like barbarian rampage, two weapon opening, spellfury etc.

I've already highlighed it on top, and stated it again in the conclusion.  If you missed that, there's little i can do.

Didn't miss is, i didn't mean to say "it's wrong", but it is misleading -> content is right, but written in a way that easily leads to wrong conclusions. e.g. the question, what is the general case, what is the special case ? For builds that focus on damage optimization (i.e. strikers or others with a striker secondary focus), the general case is not the scenario outlined in the main post.

For example, Kuraid said above "Many people (and guides) claim that the expanded crit is the Mandatory thing that Everybody Must Take Immediately at level 21, and it turns out that mathematically, this has no basis in fact."

This is not what you said of course, but it's what he took from your post...

The table itself is also a bit problematic as a base for general conclusions, since many weapons don't have enh*d6, but enh*d8, enh*d10 or even enh*d12 on crit (and an outlier with 2*enh*d10)

Added higher crit dice and ring of giants (which effectivly increases crit dice by 2 sizes).

Thank you

I'd call Ring of giants (or d10 crits) + crit range to be = with weapon focus.  Generally i would still advise against it, as WF + ring of circling fangs would be more damage.

Good find on the well hidden ring. The damage isn't even on being hit, but on being attacked, hit or miss. If i had to decide between the two options - the other ring slot being occupied by something important maybe - i would also recommend this ring over the ring of giants. Normally it won't be a choice due to gold limitations - ring of giants is the only low level ring that scales well without upgrades.

But most importantly, feat bonus vs expanded crit range is not a consideration at all

I really dont' recall many other feat bonuses to damage, except race specific ones, so i don't see this as a valid point either.  (plus multi-crit range increases don't stack either).

Sorry, wasn't clear on this: this was not about taking other feat bonuses vs. weapon focus, but about feat bonuses (including weapon focus) vs. expanded crit range. Which i think is no choice, since you can and usually will take both, and will take them at completely different levels - weapon focus (or similar) at heroic or paragon, and extended crit at lvl 21+...

mellored
Joined Jul 2008
29220 Posts
Didn't miss is, i didn't mean to say "it's wrong", but it is misleading -> content is right, but written in a way that easily leads to wrong conclusions. e.g. the question, what is the general case, what is the special case ? For builds that focus on damage optimization (i.e. strikers or others with a striker secondary focus), the general case is not the scenario outlined in the main post.

For example, Kuraid said above "Many people (and guides) claim that the expanded crit is the Mandatory thing that Everybody Must Take Immediately at level 21, and it turns out that mathematically, this has no basis in fact."

This is not what you said of course, but it's what he took from your post...

I don't disagree with him.

I mean, yea, i'd rate it gold for barbarians (with a note about the extra attack), and rangers (with a note about 2-weapon opening), and blah (with a note about the bonus blah)...

But all those things require a secondary thing to make the most use of it, e.g. they are the exceptions, not the rule.  In figher guid that rates Weapon Focus as blue, Expanded crit range should be rated blue as well.  (i don't actually know the current rating).

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

songnsilence
Joined Jun 2007
1307 Posts

I mean, yea, i'd rate it gold for barbarians (with a note about the extra attack), and rangers (with a note about 2-weapon opening), and blah (with a note about the bonus blah)...

But all those things require a secondary thing to make the most use of it, e.g. they are the exceptions, not the rule.

Well, in the context of damage optimization, strikers and strikerish characters are the rule, most of which have a way to get an extra attack on crit. If you look at builds that optimize other aspects like leadership and control, other considerations might be more important - but that is even harder to quantify...

In a fighter guide that rates Weapon Focus as blue, Expanded crit range should be rated blue as well.  (i don't actually know the current rating).

both feats are rated light blue -> take both ^^
The_Collective
Joined Jul 2008
184 Posts
Someone want to add this to the Collection?

-SongNSilence

fedifensor
Joined Mar 2001
401 Posts
Here's a high-end example of crit damage, using my 18th level cleric for LFR: Melee basic with fullblade is 1d12+9 (avg 15.5) On a crit, damage is 7d12+1d10+2d6+29 (avg 87) The ranged damage isn't quite as extreme, but it is notable: Gaze of Defiance does 1d8+9 (avg 13.5) On a crit, damage is 8d10+2d6+17 (avg 68) Now, I have multiple ways of increasing the chance of a crit (Prophecy of Doom, Righteous Rage of Tempus, Terrifying Insight), so the usefulness may be skewed in this particular instance. However, crits are VERY worthwhile for this character...and crit range is far more useful than Weapon Focus.
fatty_bolger
Joined Jan 2011
35 Posts
Slightly off topic, but if one had to choose between a War ring, and the Ring of Giants, for a daggermaster/bloodiron dagger/two weapon opening rogue, what would be the better item, both at paragon and epic tiers?
Mand12
Joined Jun 2010
17444 Posts
War Ring is +1d6 (daily power for 2d6 more, or a lot more if you've reached a milestone)
Ring of Giants is +6/+8/+10/+12 depending on the enhancement bonus of your weapon.

If you're a critfisher, and with daggermaster you are, you can be reasonably assured that you'll get a crit after a milestone and so can save the daily until that time.  If you get a lot of crits, you'll be better off with the Ring of Giants.  If you want to have one crit just be a "whatever it is, it dies now" then a milestone'd War Ring is better.

It's the age-old question of burst vs sustained damage.  Giants is better sustained, War Ring is better burst (only after a milestone).  The gap only widens as you go up tiers - getting maxed crit dice gets better as you get more crit dice, but so does the scaling flat bonus.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
mellored
Joined Jul 2008
29220 Posts
Here's a high-end example of crit damage, using my 18th level cleric for LFR: Melee basic with fullblade is 1d12+9 (avg 15.5) On a crit, damage is 7d12+1d10+2d6+29 (avg 87) The ranged damage isn't quite as extreme, but it is notable: Gaze of Defiance does 1d8+9 (avg 15.5) On a crit, damage is 8d10+2d6+17 (avg 68) Now, I have multiple ways of increasing the chance of a crit (Prophecy of Doom, Righteous Rage of Tempus, Terrifying Insight), so the usefulness may be skewed in this particular instance. However, crit are VERY worthwhile for this character...and crit range is far more useful than Weapon Focus.

You don't see many clerics use fullblades.

This gives you a total of...
3.57 damage boost for your MBA
4.75 damage boost for gaze of defiance.

So yea, worth a feat, or weapon, possibly feat+weapon.

High crit alone make crit range a decent choice.  Terrifying Insight basicly doubles the investment makeing it a good choice.  (Prophecy of Doom actually lowers the value, since 1/encounter crit rate doesn't matter).

The main thing people need to rember is the difference between crit and no-crit (52 in your case) needs to be multiplied by .05 (.9 with double rolls).

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

fedifensor
Joined Mar 2001
401 Posts
Thanks for the analysis.

I mentioned Prophecy of Doom not to justify an increased crit range, but to justify the other investments made to increase the amount of the crit (Devastating Critical, Vicious Weapon, War Ring, Executioner's Bracers, etc). If you know you're going to crit once per encounter, the investment in crit boosts are no longer based on the luck of the draw. Rolling additional crits is a nice bonus, but not a requirement to be effective.
theziner
Joined Jun 2008
634 Posts
I appoligise if this is off topic but it does have to do with crit range.

I have a Ardent Champion Avenger using a fullblade. At 17 I'm contemplating a Melgaunt's Darkblade for expanded crit range earlier and keeping it through epic. Is the feat savings worth the slight reduction in crit dice vs a Weapon with a d12 crit die?

Also do you know what crit percentage this character would have?

Thanks,
Theziner
mellored
Joined Jul 2008
29220 Posts
I appoligise if this is off topic but it does have to do with crit range. I have a Ardent Champion Avenger using a fullblade. At 17 I'm contemplating a Melgaunt's Darkblade for expanded crit range earlier and keeping it through epic. Is the feat savings worth the slight reduction in crit dice vs a Weapon with a d12 crit die? Also do you know what crit percentage this character would have? Thanks, Theziner

Since avengers get 2 rolls, they have almost double the chance of rolling an 19, thus they get nearly double the benifit from it.  I think it's 18%, but someone can double check me on that.

18% of the difference (6d12 (39) - 6d6 (21)) = 18 * .18 = 3.24.

So yea, i'd call it worth the feat.  Especially since you can get more then just the d12 on the weapon (Carnage, Vaporal, Bloodiron).

Edit: Sry, 18% is the total, since you get 9% to start with.  The bonus would be 9%, so 18*.09=1.62.

Still, picking another weapon could make it worthwhile, though it's less of a sure thing.

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

theziner
Joined Jun 2008
634 Posts
Hmm. Ardent champions also crit when they roll the same number on both their attack dice and hit the target. I was actually wondering how much this would increase the crit chance.

Also I wasn't talking about the enhanced crit feat. I was talking about using a Melgaunt's Darkblade which gives you a 19-20 crit range as a property and also has d6 crit dice per plus.
zarzak
Joined Jul 2006
507 Posts
Thanks for this analysis.  It quantifies something I've suspected for a bit but never bothered to do the math myself for.
Mand12
Joined Jun 2010
17444 Posts
Hmm. Ardent champions also crit when they roll the same number on both their attack dice and hit the target. I was actually wondering how much this would increase the crit chance. Also I wasn't talking about the enhanced crit feat. I was talking about using a Melgaunt's Darkblade which gives you a 19-20 crit range as a property and also has d6 crit dice per plus.

According to the Avenger handbook it results in an increase of your overall critical rate of around 3%.  It's dependent on your hit rate, though, as if the number you double roll isn't high enough to hit then you just miss.  The actual math is as follows:

Chance you roll a number high enough to hit but isn't a crit already (hit % - crit %) * Chance you roll the same as the first number (1 in 20, or 5%).

Most CharOp assumes 65% hit rate (hit on an 8):  5% * 60% = 3%.  If you increase your hit rate to 75%, then it's 3.5%.  85% -> 4% increase, etc.  It becomes less effective if you also gain 19-20 crit range, since rolling one 19 is already a crit so the double 19 doesn't actually increase your critical rate.

It's not as good as even going 19-20 on a class that isn't an Avenger (5% increase), but because Avengers can build so dramatically for criticals any bit can have a big impact.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
fedifensor
Joined Mar 2001
401 Posts
The main thing people need to rember is the difference between crit and no-crit (52 in your case) needs to be multiplied by .05 (.9 with double rolls).

I was looking back at the thread, and I had a question.  There are actually three results to quantify - miss, hit, and critical hit.  My degree isn't in math, but if the power doesn't do anything unless it hits, and CharOp assumes a hit rate of 8+ (per Mand12), then wouldn't you multiply by 0.077 (1/13) instead of 0.05 (1/20)?

Joined Aug 2007
8412 Posts
I don't really know where people get this nonsense about 65% being the expected hit rate - there's no such thing.

You have expected defense values (level+14 AC, level+12 NADs), and then you compare your build's attack roll to those. THAT'S your expected hit rate for that build - there's no global number because some builds place more importance on accuracy than others, and some classes are simply better at hitting than others.
"The best defense is a good offense." -Gen. George S. Patton Also known as: LDB. Got questions on how to build characters for 4E? Check out the Complete Collection of Character Build Links for some advice. My 4E CharOp Threads:
Alcestis
Joined Oct 2009
8509 Posts
I don't really know where people get this nonsense about 65% being the expected hit rate - there's no such thing.

You have expected defense values (level+14 AC, level+12 NADs), and then you compare your build's attack roll to those. THAT'S your expected hit rate for that build - there's no global number because some builds place more importance on accuracy than others, and some classes are simply better at hitting than others.

Gencon 2008 the developer panel said they wanted 55% to be the absolute minimum (16 stat, 2 proficiency weapon). 18 stat+3 prof is 65%. Would be my guess.
Mand12
Joined Jun 2010
17444 Posts
I don't really know where people get this nonsense about 65% being the expected hit rate - there's no such thing.

You have expected defense values (level+14 AC, level+12 NADs), and then you compare your build's attack roll to those. THAT'S your expected hit rate for that build - there's no global number because some builds place more importance on accuracy than others, and some classes are simply better at hitting than others.

Perhaps "assumes" wasn't the right word.  Aside from the simple result of 18stat +3 prof that Alcestis mentioned, most builds I've seen presented here tend to have a hit rate of around 65-70%.  Some are higher, to be sure (like almost any Avenger), but if you have to pick a number to use as an example in calculations that depend on hit rate you could do far worse than choosing 65%.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
mellored
Joined Jul 2008
29220 Posts
Hmm. Ardent champions also crit when they roll the same number on both their attack dice and hit the target. I was actually wondering how much this would increase the crit chance. Also I wasn't talking about the enhanced crit feat. I was talking about using a Melgaunt's Darkblade which gives you a 19-20 crit range as a property and also has d6 crit dice per plus.

1.62 is the difference between the darkblade, and d12 crit weapon + hand of divine guidance, e.g. spending a weapon vs spending a weapon + feat (though darkblade works on non-oath targets, and d12 weapons come with other benifits as well).  Crit rates are easily worth while for avengers (if not always the top choice), since they basicly double the chart i made.

Though your right that it's a little low since i didn't factor in ardent champion, which would probably bring it closer to 2 damage.  With a total crit rate of something like 21%
I was looking back at the thread, and I had a question.  There are actually three results to quantify - miss, hit, and critical hit.  My degree isn't in math, but if the power doesn't do anything unless it hits, and CharOp assumes a hit rate of 8+ (per Mand12), then wouldn't you multiply by 0.077 (1/13) instead of 0.05 (1/20)?

Hit rate doesn't matter for crits.  They do for weapon focus, but crit rates don't matter for weapon focus.

You improve your chance by 5%, only when you roll 19 (you start with the 20), to get a crit.  And you subtract the damage you would of done to see the difference.

It, technicly, COULD matter if somehow you didn't hit on a 17, but if your attacking something you can't hit on a 17, you have other issues.

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

kilpatds
Joined Nov 2003
5250 Posts
Crit rates are easily worth while for avengers (if not always the top choice), since they basicly double the chart i made.

Also, your chart is assuming no crit optimization, but Ardent Champion comes with some (the free MBA feature at 16).  So yes, Ardent Champions should really be getting that "crit on 19+" feat at level 21

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima