Vampires as a class... how are they gonna...

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Is anyone else curious how vampires are going to work in conjunction with non-UV alergic PC's?

Now, as I understand it, I believe I saw that the class is supposed to be a way to mirror the monsterous vampire, which has a serious flaw in that it is vulnerable to sunlight.  Now I'm AFB so I can't remember if they're just vulnerable, or if there is a special trait that makes them take damage from sun light.

but I really hope I don't have to roll my eyes when on PC want to do this and suddenly we're playing WoD where one guy wants to be a vampire... makes the rest of the group suffer for his choice.

Am I not remembering the vampire correctly... has anyone heard news or suspect that they may just be vulnerable radiant?
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57304548 wrote:
I imagine that Majestic Moose plays a more "A team" type game than most of us. By that I mean he allows his players to make tanks out of a backyard playground set since the players have more "fun" that way.
Actually I much prefer The Losers.
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When I and my friends sit down we want a game of heroic fantasy. Rare is the moment when I have cried out in a video game or RPG "that's unrealistic." (Unless there is no jump button. Seriously makes me mad, single handedly ruined the N64 zelda series for me, but that's a digression of a digression.) I mean, we play games with the force in galaxies far, far away, with supernatural horrors, dragons and demi-gods, alternate cosmologies, etc. Reality and it's effects hold little sway to what makes a Heroic fantasy game fun IMO. Just repeat after me: You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You are not how much you've spent on WotC products. You are not whatever RPG you play. You are one of tens of thousands of people that spend money on a hobby. You will not always get what you want
Monster based classes are always overpowered otherwise you can't capture the power difference with any other class. Because it is imbalancing I'd rather they keep such classes out of games. 4e has a feat that allows you to have dhamphyr (vampire like) skills. Is good enough.
4E has never had a monster class before, Falstyr, so that's an unfair and unsupportable claim. I doubt vampires will have radiant vulnerability. I could see some of their powers being weaker in bright light, however. They'll be vampires in the sense of being able to drain HP, turn into fog or bats or wolves, dominate minds, and punch through walls, but it would lead to far too many problems to give them the range of vampire vulnerabilities... they don't use them that much even in movies anymore for a reason.
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Monster based classes are always overpowered otherwise you can't capture the power difference with any other class. Because it is imbalancing I'd rather they keep such classes out of games. 4e has a feat that allows you to have dhamphyr (vampire like) skills. Is good enough.



I actually like that feat.  combine it with a shadar kai brawling fighter build, and you can get a really bitey feel.  if your really brave hybrid with druid.  takes some effort, but you can get pretty awesome there. Awesome being flavorful and different of course.  you'll be par in effectiveness.  but hey, those are the breaks.
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57304548 wrote:
I imagine that Majestic Moose plays a more "A team" type game than most of us. By that I mean he allows his players to make tanks out of a backyard playground set since the players have more "fun" that way.
Actually I much prefer The Losers.
Show
When I and my friends sit down we want a game of heroic fantasy. Rare is the moment when I have cried out in a video game or RPG "that's unrealistic." (Unless there is no jump button. Seriously makes me mad, single handedly ruined the N64 zelda series for me, but that's a digression of a digression.) I mean, we play games with the force in galaxies far, far away, with supernatural horrors, dragons and demi-gods, alternate cosmologies, etc. Reality and it's effects hold little sway to what makes a Heroic fantasy game fun IMO. Just repeat after me: You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You are not how much you've spent on WotC products. You are not whatever RPG you play. You are one of tens of thousands of people that spend money on a hobby. You will not always get what you want
Monster based classes are always overpowered otherwise you can't capture the power difference with any other class. Because it is imbalancing I'd rather they keep such classes out of games. 4e has a feat that allows you to have dhamphyr (vampire like) skills. Is good enough.



I actually like that feat.  combine it with a shadar kai brawling fighter build, and you can get a really bitey feel.  if your really brave hybrid with druid.  takes some effort, but you can get pretty awesome there. Awesome being flavorful and different of course.  you'll be par in effectiveness.  but hey, those are the breaks.



A Essentials Scout has a stance which combined with the vampire feat has a great feel to it as well.
Currently trying to make a Lycan feat similar to the Dhampyr one.
I was actually toying with creating an essentials/4e mix build for a druid.

you know, change the role to a firm striker, add the damage bonus to beast powers, continue from there, maybe use shapechanging knacks the same way that other e classes use stances and etc.

but at least with were wolves and such the obstacles are mostly character driven.  the beast within and all.  The vampire's inate limits are questionable to me...
My Blog, mostly about D&D.
57304548 wrote:
I imagine that Majestic Moose plays a more "A team" type game than most of us. By that I mean he allows his players to make tanks out of a backyard playground set since the players have more "fun" that way.
Actually I much prefer The Losers.
Show
When I and my friends sit down we want a game of heroic fantasy. Rare is the moment when I have cried out in a video game or RPG "that's unrealistic." (Unless there is no jump button. Seriously makes me mad, single handedly ruined the N64 zelda series for me, but that's a digression of a digression.) I mean, we play games with the force in galaxies far, far away, with supernatural horrors, dragons and demi-gods, alternate cosmologies, etc. Reality and it's effects hold little sway to what makes a Heroic fantasy game fun IMO. Just repeat after me: You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You are not how much you've spent on WotC products. You are not whatever RPG you play. You are one of tens of thousands of people that spend money on a hobby. You will not always get what you want
my guess is they will sparkle Cry

 in all seriousness, i dont think they will gimp the class for being in sunlight, however you may get extra riders for being underground, indoors or at night

my one thing is that vampires have alot of strengths; speed, strength, cunning and hella durability when i think vampire i always think old world of darkness. so how is it that they will implement these things into a balanced Player Class, or if they will insted make the class too weak because they dont want it to be overpowered

as for traditional vampire weaknesses like silver, crosses, sunlight, garloc and stakes (however, it is my understanding that a steak to the heart will kill anything) some of them may just not be implemented, but will they ignore the vampire weaknesses completly?

anything at this point is pure speculation, i would like to see a friggen werewolf though 
4E has never had a monster class before, Falstyr, so that's an unfair and unsupportable claim.



In the one edition that did have them, 99 percent of them were pathetically underpowered, so he can't even make a 'legacy' claim.
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Monster based classes are always overpowered otherwise you can't capture the power difference with any other class. Because it is imbalancing I'd rather they keep such classes out of games. 4e has a feat that allows you to have dhamphyr (vampire like) skills. Is good enough.



I actually like that feat.  combine it with a shadar kai brawling fighter build, and you can get a really bitey feel.  if your really brave hybrid with druid.  takes some effort, but you can get pretty awesome there. Awesome being flavorful and different of course.  you'll be par in effectiveness.  but hey, those are the breaks.



A Essentials Scout has a stance which combined with the vampire feat has a great feel to it as well.
Currently trying to make a Lycan feat similar to the Dhampyr one.



Lycan.. its like calling a bussinessman a business.

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Werewovles have the same issues as Vampires. Improved speed, strength, heightened senses. One attacks to drink blood. The other attacks because it is a murderer. Both have weaknesses against silver. I don't see them working as a stand-alone class. I don't see them working just by having a shapeshifter druid hybrid with only fluff to looks and nothing related to actual lycan prowess. Working with feats is the most sensible solution.

With the vampire heritage feat you can later on get the power to shape in fog/myst and other vampire related stuff.


Lycan.. its like calling a bussinessman a business.



No it isn't. Lycan is the official and historically correct name unlike the pop-culture designation falsly used. Especialy in a fantasy game where there are werewolves, tigers, bears, rats and any more variations it is only logical to use Lycan as the denominator.
Actually, the historically accurate term is Lycanthrope. Lycan is an abreviation / contraction of Lycanthrope. In this respect, Lycan is equivalent to saying can`t (instead of cannot).

To the person who compared Lycan to calling a businessperson a business, I cry foul as you are comparing a contraction (Lycan) with a conjoined noun (Businessman). 

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A werecreature (or "therianthrope") class would be pretty great, probably as a striker with either controller (animal pack/howling/kitsune) aspects or defender (Fred's a friggin WEREBEAR) builds.

Frankly, I wouldn't be upset if WotC had a collection of classes most people associate with WoD. Wraith and Faerie classes could be fun. :P
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Lycan is the official and historically correct name unlike the pop-culture designation falsly used.



wut
Shifter Werewolf go.

Disciple of the Night (class feature)

A Vampire gains +5 resist necrotic and +5 vulnerable radiant.

Lycan is the official and historically correct name unlike the pop-culture designation falsly used.



wut



Indeed.  Official to whom? And historically correct, really?

The word lycanthrope is a combination of the Greek word for wolf (can't type in the Greek alphabet, but it essentially reads Lykos) and human (Anthropos).  Lykos-anthropos = lycanthrope (wolf-human).  Lycan does not equal anything but a shortened version of the word, containing mostly the word for wolf.  Hence, it is like calling a businessman a business, since lycan really only means wolf.
Since DnD also has a range of "were" animal people, Therianthropy is a better and more accurate term. 
Since DnD also has a range of "were" animal people, Therianthropy is a better and more accurate term. 



Very true.  Lycanthropes are werewolves and only werewolves, I have always hated that the wererat or weretiger are refered to as lycanthropes.
"Werecreature" would be the most useful term, as it doesn't require outside knowledge.
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The word lycanthrope is a combination of the Greek word for wolf (can't type in the Greek alphabet, but it essentially reads Lykos) and human (Anthropos).  Lykos-anthropos = lycanthrope (wolf-human).  Lycan does not equal anything but a shortened version of the word, containing mostly the word for wolf.  Hence, it is like calling a businessman a business, since lycan really only means wolf.



Eh, I don't have a problem with the abbreviation, I just think it's hilarious that in the few years since Underworld came out apparently "Lycan" is both "official" (because brand recognition is very important for werewolves) and "historical" dispite being only a decade old.

Oh, and it's better than the "pop-culture designation falsely used" apparently.  A word made up for a bad (if admittedly entertaining) vampire movie isn't the definition of "pop culture" I don't know what is.

Anyway, as an abbreviation it's has more in common with "cyborg = cybernetic organism" than "business = businessman" and is suitable for a "that's way cooler" sort of buzz word thing, which is what they were going for.  Of everything to have an issue with in that film, shortening Lycanthrope to Lycan is the least of their sins.
Hence, it is like calling a businessman a business, since lycan really only means wolf.


But the 'an' in 'lycan' is from 'anthropos'. Both parts of the original word are accounted for in the contraction. So it's more like calling a businessman a 'busma'.

Unless you instead interpret the 'an' as an adjectival suffix. In which case, 'lycan' means 'wolflike'. Which is like calling a businessman a 'businesslike'. Which sounds odd until you realise that lots of adjectives actually can be used as nouns in just this way: "You are an American", for example. If werewolves are seen as a race or nation, 'Lycan' is a perfectly adequate term for an individual.

"My flying carpet is full of elves."

How about just calling it a "Were" class.

Bel
Originally Posted by WotC_RichBaker In related news, I'm afraid I'm going to have to confiscate your 3.5 rulebooks, and force you to convert to the new edition. Where do you live?
Is anyone else curious how vampires are going to work in conjunction with non-UV alergic PC's?

Now, as I understand it, I believe I saw that the class is supposed to be a way to mirror the monsterous vampire, which has a serious flaw in that it is vulnerable to sunlight.  Now I'm AFB so I can't remember if they're just vulnerable, or if there is a special trait that makes them take damage from sun light.

but I really hope I don't have to roll my eyes when on PC want to do this and suddenly we're playing WoD where one guy wants to be a vampire... makes the rest of the group suffer for his choice.

Am I not remembering the vampire correctly... has anyone heard news or suspect that they may just be vulnerable radiant?



  4E Vampires don't take damage from sunlight.  They can generally cross running water, entered buildings uninvited, eat garlic, and other things as well.  It doesn't keep people from starting such rumors and doesn't stop vampires from exploiting the misinformation, however.
This thread is funny.
4E Vampires don't take damage from sunlight.


Some do. Some don't. Different vampires are different. All the vampires in Monster Vault take radiant damage when exposed to sunlight. Strahd, Kas and Ctenmiir (Open Grave) don't take damage, but can't regenerate in direct sunlight. Spirit vampires (ibid.) are dazed in sunlight. Corpse vampires and vampire muses (ibid.) aren't affected by sunlight at all.

"My flying carpet is full of elves."

4E Vampires don't take damage from sunlight.


Some do. Some don't. Different vampires are different. All the vampires in Monster Vault take radiant damage when exposed to sunlight. Strahd, Kas and Ctenmiir (Open Grave) don't take damage, but can't regenerate in direct sunlight. Spirit vampires (ibid.) are dazed in sunlight. Corpse vampires and vampire muses (ibid.) aren't affected by sunlight at all.

Bram Stokers Dracula didnt take damage from sunlight -- sunlight .... oooh im burning is holiwood (mispelt on porpoise) and no cooler than sparkles as far as im concerned 
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At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
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Bram Stokers Dracula didnt take damage from sunlight -- sunlight .... oooh im burning is holiwood (mispelt on porpoise) and no cooler than sparkles as far as im concerned 




While it’s been quite a few years sense I read Dracula he was a “master” the lesser vampires still were killed by sunlight if I recall.


I still fail to understand the fascination with playing an undead… Waste of time.  




I don't know. I've always wanted to play a zombie or a full on golem. You know wandering around and attacking anything that moved...completley mindless...
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The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
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The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
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I always thought that "dying by sunlight" was invented in Nosferatu.

In MM it says that vampires are mostly immune to those "traditional" ways of harming them... but their spawn isn't.
If MV reverted that one, that would be one lame thing about it of what I've heard so far.

Oh, and again: shifter with a were-class – explain that one!


I don't know. I've always wanted to play a zombie or a full on golem. You know wandering around and attacking anything that moved...completley mindless...




Raahhh... Fire bad!!! Sorry, just in that odd kinda mood...Innocent
How about just calling it a "Were" class.

Bel



But... but... my geek cred!
I always thought that "dying by sunlight" was invented in Nosferatu.

In MM it says that vampires are mostly immune to those "traditional" ways of harming them... but their spawn isn't.
If MV reverted that one, that would be one lame thing about it of what I've heard so far.
 



It does indeed seem to have been invented specifically in the movie Nosferatu ... not in novels nor classic myth or legend. Its incredibly modern compared to actual myths.  This is a case of sparkles.
 
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At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
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How about just calling it a "Were" class.

Bel



But... but... my geek cred!



Not to mention that would be calling it a "Man" class.  Since Were just means Man.  Werewolf = Manwolf.

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Not to get too far off topic, but for a weresomething, it would be really easy to take a shifter, and refluff the Scout class.  It's mechanic is a off hand hit after each attack.  Use 2 wrist razors/bladed gauntlets/whathaveyou, and there ya go.  It's got a TON of movement, so you could even emulate the incredible speed of the typical werewolf.

A werebear might be a better bet as a brawler fighter however...

But yeah, if you get creative, many of the classes we already have cover a lot of these roles.

I am interested to see how they handle the vampire class though, I hope it is at least a fun build. 

I don't know. I've always wanted to play a zombie or a full on golem. You know wandering around and attacking anything that moved...completley mindless...



Attacking anything that moves.....so you want to play an adventurer then? :P


I don't know. I've always wanted to play a zombie or a full on golem. You know wandering around and attacking anything that moved...completley mindless...




Raahhh... Fire bad!!! Sorry, just in that odd kinda mood...



Oh, wait I can already do this... Revenant Slayer... "AAAAaaaargh, Hit it, Hit it harder, hit it"...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.


I don't know. I've always wanted to play a zombie or a full on golem. You know wandering around and attacking anything that moved...completley mindless...




Raahhh... Fire bad!!! Sorry, just in that odd kinda mood...



Oh, wait I can already do this... Revenant Slayer... "AAAAaaaargh, Hit it, Hit it harder, hit it"...



Dang, you got to it before me.  I mean that was low hanging fruit if I ever saw it.
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the lesser vampires still were killed by sunlight if I recall.


Nope.

Dracula himself does die as the first rays of dawn strike him, and his body crumbles to dust, but it's clear in the novel that having his throat slashed and being stabbed through the heart are what actually kills him. Sunlight's not even remotely connected with the deaths of vampire-Lucy and Dracula's three brides.

Van Helsing does mention in passing that Dracula is more powerful at night than during the day. But that's darkness making him stronger, not day making him weaker (he's still more powerful than any mortal man during the day).

"My flying carpet is full of elves."

the lesser vampires still were killed by sunlight if I recall.


Nope.

Dracula himself does die as the first rays of dawn strike him, and his body crumbles to dust, but it's clear in the novel that having his throat slashed and being stabbed through the heart are what actually kills him. Sunlight's not even remotely connected with the deaths of vampire-Lucy and Dracula's three brides.

Van Helsing does mention in passing that Dracula is more powerful at night than during the day. But that's darkness making him stronger, not day making him weaker (he's still more powerful than any mortal man during the day).



I thought light weakened him to the point that he was basically mortal?  Either way, it made Dracula feel vulnerable, being on more equal ground with a regular person, and that made him dislike being about during the day.  And then rumors start, and next thing you know, people think vampires can't go out during the day.  They can, they just don't like to.
Bram stoker added the idea that silvered glass rejected the image of the Vampire  

I read one that a Vampire can see themselves in a mirror they just dont like what they see... it presents there true self and not the seductive illusion they tend to wrap themselves in.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Regardless of what version of Vampires you're going with, they tend to be defined by their weaknesses as much as by their strengths - in many cases weaknesses that would be crippling for D&D adventurers.  How they're going to put together a vampire class that is both evocative of the archetype and functional as an adventurer is, at the moment, beyond me.
Regardless of what version of Vampires you're going with, they tend to be defined by their weaknesses as much as by their strengths - in many cases weaknesses that would be crippling for D&D adventurers.  How they're going to put together a vampire class that is both evocative of the archetype and functional as an adventurer is, at the moment, beyond me.



Well, with the MM1 and the Open Grave book, they did mention that the current default is that vamipres are not disuaded by running water or garlic, and that they do not need to be invited to enter a home.  Nor are wooden stakes particularly effective against them (any more than anything else with a point to it), and while they are undead and seem to take radiant damage, only the weak minion ones seem to die in direct sunlight.  Not sure abut the MV adding back any of this. 

However . . .

One thing that should be noted is that OG added an action that a "strong-willed individual" who weilds a good deity's symbol can make using a charisma or wisdom attack as a standard action (plus any enhancement bonus of the symbol) that, if it hits their will, causes the vampires to be unable to attack the user of said action until the end of their next turn.  That, and during that time, the vampire must stay out of reach of the person wielding the symbol.  Page 188.

So while many of the weaknesses fo the vampire have been negated or downplayed, there still seem to be some that still linger.  Not sure how that reconciles with PCs.
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- ) Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition. Salla: opinionated, but commonly right.
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quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?[/quote]
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