have any of yall tried to make dpr kings with controllers/multi targeters

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im impressed with the math and whole dpr thing yall have put together and was curious if anyone had tried to do it with multi-targeting pcs. it seems like the dpr kings is all focused on single target attacks, which is cool, but i was curious about looking at controller dpr, like assuming three targets. maybe there are problems with how this could be done? any of yalls thought would be interesting to me

The problem is, there hasn't been a concession on enemy density.

How many enemies are in a burst 1? 2? 3?

Though sorcerer's do this pretty well, if your looking for something generic. 

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

DPR kings thread has them... they list the total at-will area and DPR per target. They just aren't allowed to assume a give number of targets, the author of thread places them based on his judgement (3x3 2 targets is reasonable, etc).
i was thinking it would be seperate from the current single target dpr kings. like assume 3 targets during heroic and paragon, and 4 at epic, bc it seems there are many area 2 bursts at higher levels, and certain powers such as hand of radiance target 4 at epic. i know its kind of looking at an ideal scenario, but often enough (unless its a solo creature), youre hitting three. anyways i just thought it would be interesting.
I feel like a reasonable estimate for enemies in burst is N=(Burst size)+1, and with blast, it's Blast size/2, rounded up.

While the math side of at-will DPR calculations is cool, I generally feel like the more useful DPR past heroic tier would be the DPR across all encounter powers and one at-will or daily power, with and without an action point to spend.  That's the way most fights seem to go, so I feel that it's a better measure of how much damage a character is going to put out.  (The exception, of course, being those who are designed to use strictly at-will powers.)
I'd love to see more AoE candidates.  I am quite generous with them.  I do feel that single target DPR is a significantly different number than AoE DPR and there is no sufficient conversion.  Nearly dead monsters still do the same damage as those with full HP.  The ability of AoE strikers to reduce on the total time of an encounter is quite incredible.  Minion destroying is the job of the controller, and Boss killing is the job of the striker.
Please bring your candidates over.  People keep up on the thread and can point out errors and where you can improve. 
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
AOE is the unsung hero of charop, which is a shame really.
It's absolutely essential when building an AoE striker to have the ability to do good damage to a target surrounded by allies.  War Wizardry is effectively a Paragon Feat Tax.

In comparison to absurd DPR Kings like Murderous Mind or the charging thief, Blasters are pretty much complete crap and you have to abuse vulnerabilities to even get within "should have been a ranger"
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
I can get an iron-soul monk who went Lyrander Wind Rider to crank out pretty decent AoE damage. The only thing that really hurts him is losing Iron Armbands of power.
I've been trying to build an high dpr tiefling pyromancer for a while. In the epic tier, though, i face a "theoretical" problem. Anyone who played an epic wizard knows that dailies are basically encounters with a different colour, at least if you go Archmage.

Since the real problem of wizard builds is lack of non-daily nova multihitting powers, i'd like to know if in the DPR thread those nova could be put in as encounter novas or daily novas.

Chauntea/Lathander/Torm Cleric since 1995 My husband married a DM - καλὸς καὶ ἀγαθός

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/14.jpg)

I can get an iron-soul monk who went Lyrander Wind Rider to crank out pretty decent AoE damage. The only thing that really hurts him is losing Iron Armbands of power.


I'm always curious what people mean when they talk about monks and doing good AoE damage.  At level 12, my Sorcerer is at Dice+1d10+30 (+33 if it's a Close attack) damage on my attacks and can Encounter Nova for 500 single target if needed, and I know Wizards can put up absurd numbers in Epic (+55 and 3d8+6 more for the 2 rounds of Promise of Storm).  I've seen so few monk builds, in play I've seen 2 pre-gens in paragon and one from 1st-8th, and none of them perticularly impressed me; ranged fob for 11 and slide and other control is neat, but the damage has always been lacking.  Would someone mind posting, or messaging me a decent monk build?  (yes, I know I should just try to build it myself, but I am le tired)
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
it seems like the dpr kings is all focused on single target attacks, which is cool, but i was curious about looking at controller dpr, like assuming three targets.

That's because certain people like erachima believe that you'll never, ever, fight more than one monster at once. Unless you have something like hand of radiance. Then maybe there'll be two monsters on the board.

Which is completely contrary to encounter design guidelines, which make pure solo encounters the very rare exception instead of the rule.

This is one main reason why sorcerers are so much better in practice than the CO boards give them credit for.
Well we need to come to a concencous at to enemy density.

If we assume a 10x10 room, with 5 enemies, that gives us a density of 100 / 5 = 1 enemy per 20 squares.
Assuming purposefull targeting...  I suggest we multiply DPR for burst by 1 + (.05 * squares covered).

Thus a burst 1 (9 squares) DPR would be multipled by 1.45  (roughly 2 targets every other round).
Burst 2 (25 squares) = * 2.25
Burst 3 (79 squares) = * 3.45

Of course, that's for friendly attacks.  Unfriendly needs some penalty...

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Well we need to come to a concencous at to enemy density.

If we assume a 10x10 room, with 5 enemies, that gives us a density of 100 / 5 = 1 enemy per 20 squares.
Assuming purposefull targeting...  I suggest we multiply DPR for burst by 1 + (.05 * squares covered).

Thus a burst 1 (9 squares) DPR would be multipled by 1.45  (roughly 2 targets every other round).
Burst 2 (25 squares) = * 2.25
Burst 3 (79 squares) = * 3.45

Of course, that's for friendly attacks.  Unfriendly needs some penalty...

I think your calc for burst 3 might be a little off... should be a 7x7 square, correct? so, 49, not 79 squares. your math is right though

how about 1/25 squares for friendlies, since it can be assume you aren't going to nuke yourself (at least commonly, or even uncommonly)? 5 person party, minus you. That would make a (.04*squares covered) factor to remove, or

burst 1 - 1 + (.45) - (.36) = 1.09
burst 2 - 1 + (1.25) - (1) = 1.25
burst 3 - 1 + (2.45) - (1.96) = 1.49

That assumes that your party is not very smart, though.

This proposed metric gets interesting with powers that allow you to exclude sections, like Howling Tempest. Lets propose that if you are allowed to exclude a square, you can avoid yourself + a friend. This brings the ratio to 1/33, which gives...

burst 1 - 1+(.45)-(.29) = 1.15
burst 2 - 1+(1.25)-(.83) = 1.42
burst 3 - 1+(2.45)-(1.63) = 1.82
IIRC you can combine good single target damage with multi target powers just fine with Rogue or Thief

Thief + Arcane Power via light blade implement
=> Weapon Talent, Weapon Finesse, Sneak Attack as worded should work with dagger implement powers

Half Elf Thief Sorcerer

Half-Elf Thief, start with Cha 20 Dex 14
Versatile Master (Blazing Starfall)
Weapon Training Charisma
MC Sorcerer


Works better with Winged Horde / Hand of Radiance, due to party friendlyness (attack 3+ each round without effort)...

Half Elf Party Friendly Alternatives


Half-Elf Thief, start with Wis 20 Dex 14
Versatile Master (Winged Horde)
Adept Dilettante
Weapon Training Wisdom
MC Wizard
Arcane Implement Proficiency (Dagger)

Half-Elf Thief, start with Wis 20 Dex 14
Versatile Master (Hand of Radiance)
Weapon Training Wisdom
MC Sorcerer


If Versatile Master is looked down upon, a Drow Rogue PMC Sorcerer also works fine
=> Weapon Talent + Sneak attack, get Dex to Damage feat...
Problem there is that now you're assuming single/multi-target damage equivalence, where in reality only the damage to the first enemy to die counts in full.

Multi-target damage's equivalence to single-target damage is the damage to one target, plus the damage to another target applied at the point the first target dies, plus the damage to the next target at the point that target dies, etc.

While true, area attacks are worth more at the start of the battle, where there's more creatures around.  So a burst 1 will very likely hit 2, possibly 3 creatures in the beginning of the battle, and 1 at the end.

I think 1.45 for a burst 1 is a fair estimate.

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I woudl agree, even calling it a little low.
If anyone has a high DPR AoE build, just feel free to share it. I don't think it matters so much, how they compare to the single target DPR builds which get crazy mainly from multiple damage rolls anyway. I for one would certainly love to see more blaster or other multi-target builds.

When enemy is clumped, and a party has number of people with AoE's, the fight can turn into a slaughter. I recall we finished a handful of encounters this way in two rounds flat, with such parties. The power of multi-targeting is somewhat underestimated.
It feels like everyone is going about this is a rather backwards manner.

It'd make more sense to figure out the maximum damage possible for most optimal burst 1 power, then the burst 2 powers, the close burst 1 powers, etc. and then argue about the viability after there are some real numbers on the table. It may be well and good that a burst 1 does overall 10 damage to 1 target, overall 20 to 2 targets, etc. but the point is that it is a 10 damage burst 1. Can someone make a build that does an 11 damage burst 1? (obviously that's a farcical example, but hopefully you take my meaning)

It usually doesn't much matter how many monsters are in the area being attacked, and whatever argument posted could should simply note the sliding scale based on number of targets (i.e. because this is a Covenant of Wrath Invoker, hand of radiance does anywhere from +1 to +3 more damage depending on targets, which makes it slightly better or worse than (blank)...).

Once we have those calculations, a good baseline for each AoE size and "# of targets" power can be established, and we can argue about the relative worth of it in tactical situations compared to single target dpr vs. length of combat and all the other hypotheticals that cannot be controlled by the players modifying their build.
A few months ago I joined a short-lived D&D playgroup. When showing my character background to the other players to see if we were all on the same page, one of them, a real nitpicking, rules-lawyering, big-headed **** (later responsible for derailing/collapsing the entire campaign) reads it over and says: "Your character has a wife? Are you stupid? You're just giving something to the DM to use against you." I didn't react outwardly at the time, but gradually, the real impact of what he said, and what that represented, sunk in, and I realized that his criticism embodied entirely everything that is wrong with the Player-DM relationship as it is commonly seen.
Seems like a reasonable goal for a blaster, along with.

-Getting the largest AoEs
-Getting the largest Party-friendly AoEs

But yeah... I think that getting the highest damage per-target in an AoE can be optimized fairly reasonably... Presumably the users of this build will assume a sticky defender and maybe some sub-controllers in the party to help round up your targets... Pratical experiance says it was pretty easy to line up three targets in a 3X3 area.
Part of the major problem with Blaster builds is that they're prone to utter failure in DPR (ie. At-Will Powers) without resorting to assuming you will only have 3 Encounters/day and thus can use a damage roll-on-entry zone (ie. a Daily) every encounter.  The problems with this tactic are 1. that it doesn't work until level 15 for Wizards and Warlocks, and Sorcerer's have to wait until 29 (one of the support holes for that class) 2. Oh look, Fight #4, ha!, and to a lesser degree 3. taking an enemy that was being flanked by your allies and throwing it into a zone is pretty annoying to your allies.

Getting Huge AoE's is easy, Pyromancer Mage with Freezing Burst, Flaming Staff, Master of Flame PP, Admix Thunder, Resounding Thunder, Enlarge Spell, Whetstone of Combustion, Consuming the Weak, Icy Clutch of Stygia (Or Elemental Empowerment if Genasi).
Burst 4 At-Will doing 1d6+Mods-2(+5 Vulnerable) Ongoing 5 Slide 1 and Int damage when they save.  Admix Cold, Lasting Frost, Wintertouched to add CA and 5 more damage.

All that aside, on the topic of the validity of a Blaster-as-Striker, if a Blaster can consistantly do at least 60% of the damage of, but target 2 more targets than, a 4 round striker, they are equal vs 1-4 enemies and superior vs 5 or more.  Obviously, the presence of an Elite or Solo changes things slightly.  I would say that you also have to provide some meaningful contribution outside of damage, but pretty much every DPR king doesn't anyway
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Of course, that's for friendly attacks.  Unfriendly needs some penalty...

In my experience, unfriendly attacks are nothing that decent tactics cannot handle. I have a paragon wizard with nothing but area attacks, no War Wizardry, and who tends to use Enlarge Spell almost all the time; and I only extremely rarely target an ally.

While true, area attacks are worth more at the start of the battle, where there's more creatures around.

That's correct, but you also tend to use your encounter powers at the start of battle.

I would estimate that you can target about 1.3 enemies with a burst-1 assuming the DM uses decent tactics to spread out his enemies. You can target about 3 enemies with a burst-2 because 5x5 squares is a very big area. And you can fairly consistently hit everything on the board with an Enlarged Fire Shroud (close burst 4).

This also means that any minor action or free action Forced Movement power is crazy good; it can consistently add one target to a spell you're about to use, or exclude an ally. In practice, this matches my experience as well.
Part of the major problem with Blaster builds is that they're prone to utter failure in DPR (ie. At-Will Powers) without resorting to assuming you will only have 3 Encounters/day and thus can use a damage roll-on-entry zone (ie. a Daily) every encounter.  The problems with this tactic are 1. that it doesn't work until level 15 for Wizards and Warlocks, and Sorcerer's have to wait until 29 (one of the support holes for that class)



I may be failing at reading comprehension here, but what are you getting at? Are you saying that there are no damage on entry zone powers for the sorc until level 29?

Just trying to get together some support holes so I can write a dragon article that will be turned down because E is now the baseline ;)
A bit of tactics can go a long way in setting up AoE's. Something like Come and Get It will clump the enemy nicely. Wardens are also very good at keeping things around them. Sorcerers can drop donuts. An Eladrin might have Twist the Arcane Fabric. Invokers not only have ally friendly blasts, but also have tools like Divine Call. Many leaders have tools that let an ally shift, especially warlords. Tieflings can nab one of those many powers like Reorient the Axis with Secrets of Belial. Moving enemies into positions you want can be done with minor or free action powers such as Knight's Challenge, Warden's Tempest, Flurry of Blows, and even some skill powers like Everybody Move.

Even just simple multi-targeting without AoE's can be optimized fairly well, using Arc Lightning, Divine Bolts, Hand of Radiance, Deft Hurler Cleave, Dual Strike, Whirling Rend, not to mention countless encounter powers (which will make the greatest impact early encounter anyway).

And then there are many powers that are particularly helpful when targeting lots of enemies. A Dragonborn Warlord with Inspiring Breath plus an Invoker with Rain of Blood hitting the same area adds +10 to the damage everyone else will be dishing out in that area. Drop an immobilizing effect in the area, and keep pounding on them. Group buffs such as those from a Runepriest's Rune of Mending also add to damage rapidly when everyone is attacking a lot of targets. 
Of course, that's for friendly attacks.  Unfriendly needs some penalty...

In my experience, unfriendly attacks are nothing that decent tactics cannot handle. I have a paragon wizard with nothing but area attacks, no War Wizardry, and who tends to use Enlarge Spell almost all the time; and I only extremely rarely target an ally.

I wasn't implying that you where going to it allies, i was implying that it's harder to target more enemies when allies are present.

Say an ally is flanked (a common situation), with a friendly burst 1 you can hit 2, with an unfriendly, you hit 1.

I would estimate that you can target about 1.3 enemies with a burst-1 assuming the DM uses decent tactics to spread out his enemies. You can target about 3 enemies with a burst-2 because 5x5 squares is a very big area. And you can fairly consistently hit everything on the board with an Enlarged Fire Shroud (close burst 4).

1.3 for a friendly or unfriendly?  Seems good for an unfriendly.  IMO, it's a little low for friendly (i think 1.45 is pretty solid).

Also, this assumes ranged attacks.  I think there should be a small penalty for close attacks.  Probably true for melee vs ranged DPS as well.

Though an odd thing happens with unfriendlies.  At some point, getting them bigger is a detriment, as it get's harder to miss allies.
This also means that any minor action or free action Forced Movement power is crazy good; it can consistently add one target to a spell you're about to use, or exclude an ally. In practice, this matches my experience as well.

Defiantly true.  Forced movement Probably should be factored into DPR somehow.

Perhaps count each square of foced movement as an extra square of coverage?  Or probably better, each push/pull counts as half a square, slide counts as a full square.

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Though an odd thing happens with unfriendlies.  At some point, getting them bigger is a detriment, as it get's harder to miss allies.

Airburst.  If your ally is flanked by two large creatures, put the origin 10 feet over his head.  You catch the top half of the large creatures and miss your ally.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Though an odd thing happens with unfriendlies.  At some point, getting them bigger is a detriment, as it get's harder to miss allies.

Airburst.  If your ally is flanked by two large creatures, put the origin 10 feet over his head.  You catch the top half of the large creatures and miss your ally.

True, but you also can't fit 9 large creatures in a burst 1.

Anyways, does anyone disagree with..
Squares       Friendly     Unfriendly
4  (2x2)        1.2             1.1
9  (3x3)        1.45           1.3
16 (4x4)       1.8             1.5
25 (5x5)       2.25           1.7
36 (6x6)       2.8             1.9
49 (7x7)       3.45           2.1
64 (8x8)       4.2             2.3


Thus it comes out to.

.05 per friendly square.
.1 per unfriendly blast size (burst size = 2* blast size). 

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

actually, that feels about right. Not sure how you decided on that, but it does have a good feel to it. That makes things like fire burst quite good, as it is a huge area and friendly. It makes enlarging friendlies almost always worth it (-2 damage per die, so if your die is less than a d10 on a small one, it might not be worth it if you are just looking at damage, but otherwise probably going to be worth it).

ruling on sorc's "doughnut" powers might be interesting. perhaps a 1 area shift larger for damage computation? That would move Howling Tempest from a 1.3 to a 1.5, which is a little more than if it were friendly power itself. hellfire storm would go from a 1.7 to a 1.9 which seems like it's about right, as you are more likely to hit a buddy outside of the origin in a 5x5
@Erachima: er, no?  In a 5v5 with Defender/Leader/Controller/Striker/Striker(or Blaster), Creature 1 dies on round 2, Creature 2 dies on round 3, Creature 3 dies on round 5, Creature 4 dies on round 6, and Creature 5 dies on round 7 (except it's round 6 with the Blaster), If you're using 25% damage strikers (60% less is a 15% damage 3 target Blaster) and 10% damage other folks.  Yes, I know an optimized whatever is better than a 25% striker, and there's all sorts of "if miss/crit then" or "if encounter powers then".  But the ratio's stay approximately the same with a little variance for enemies that have ended up minionized instead of finished off, and that's as likely to work against the majority of single target strikers as not (more targets = more crits after all).

@raleel Actually, I was reading something wrong, I thought there were actually 3 by level 29 because I was looking at my sorcerer, who is MC'd into Lock.  Sorcerer's as a class have 1 power at level 25 that does a damage roll to enemies that enter it, and that's it.  And you're stupid to take it at that level because Wrathful Vapors is just so much better.

There are 4 major things that Sorcerer's lack in powers: Those zones, worthwhile Enemies Only (Or long range Multi-target like Hand of Radiance), worthwhile ongoing damage attacks (really, why do we have feat and utility support for ongoing damage when we don't even have an encounter power that does ongoing), and spells like Prismatic Beams that are multi-target, multi-attack, and have good status effects (Artificers get a better Prismatic Spell for gods sakes).

I should also add that the Shivs of Sorcery article didn't include a single Paragon/Epic power, and with Light Blade Focus/Expertise only working on Weapons, there's no reason to choose any of the powers outside heroic (except Lightning Cuts which you keep until Epic because it's a Minor Action).  Do Sorcerers need more Weapon powers?  I don't really think so, at least they don't need watered down Rogue powers with no real feat support (Compare Riposte Strike vs Ensorceled Blade, or Blinding Barrage vs Blinding Blade)

And Feats.  Dear lord do Sorcerers need better feats.  I've taken enough space here, if you're really planning on doing a Sorcerer article, I'd love to help

@Mellord: But you can hit 4 in a Burst 1!

I would say those numbers are a little low, I would expect a solid 3 with a friendly 5x5.  I also believe there's a bit of Tier scaling, with War Wizardry in Paragon, it's pretty acceptable to target 1 ally per 2 enemies (works out to roughly 6:1 Enemy:Ally damage); and in Epic, Sorcerers and Wizards at least will just target as many Enemies as possible, allies or not because of Sorcerous Flux and Spell Accuracy Respectively (and Explosive Spellcasting).

My experience with War Wizardry is my basis for saying those numbers are too low, it's far too common for me to be able to hit 3 in a burst 2 if my defender doesn't mind the risk.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
And then if a defender has resistances of a particular kind, then a controller will usually have an AoE of that element.. just because having a large AoE that it's ok to snage your defender in makes it more valuable than it would be ordinarily, meaning a power thats normally black becomes a blue suddenly. You can generally assume a one colour upgrade if your defender has a solid defence against that attack... but we can't assume that in general calculations.  Worth considering for Party-op, though.
Anyways, does anyone disagree with..


What about the War Wizardry feat? (against allies, you are -5 to hit and do half damage). Does that count as friendly?

What about minions? You should probably double or triple all the numbers in a battle with minions. Against a 5-person party, an average encounter could be 5 monsters, or 4 lower-level monsters and 10 minions.

These numbers feel a bit off to me; I'd say the numbers for 2x2 and 3x3 should be lower, and the numbers for 5x5 and up should be higher. A friendly burst 7x7 or more can potentailly hit everything on the board, and a friendly burst 9x9 (i.e. enlarged Fire Shroud at level three) can reliably do that.

Why are you counting friendly attacks in squares, and unfriendly ones in blast size? That strikes me as inconsistent. I'd say reasonable figures are .07 per friendly square, .05 per unfriendly square.
All that aside, on the topic of the validity of a Blaster-as-Striker, if a Blaster can consistantly do at least 60% of the damage of, but target 2 more targets than, a 4 round striker, they are equal vs 1-4 enemies and superior vs 5 or more.  Obviously, the presence of an Elite or Solo changes things slightly.  I would say that you also have to provide some meaningful contribution outside of damage, but pretty much every DPR king doesn't anyway



I've been working on some generic formulas for comparing blasters with single-target damage dealers. I still need to work out some of the details, but my results more or less agree with your numbers above. If anybody is curious, I have posted the math in this thread.

My blog about 4e rules and news: Square Fireballs The Magic Item Reset: A standalone set of items for 4E
@Zathris - thanks! I am working on one. I kinda felt like there was a need and I figured it's a good way to get into writing a bit. Despite this, I still think they are getting rid of the sorc, or are going to ignore it for essentials. we have an evocation mage and a pyromancer mage. What is the sorc compared to these again?
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