DMG 3... Dead in the Water?

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Since 4e started, I've been getting nearly all the books. Have all the Powers on my shelf but Psionic (was on my Xmas list, but no money to snag it for myself yet). I had no interest in the settings books (I like homebrewing) and the ones with premade adventures (see the previous point), but got those books which were mainly monsters (Open Grave, Demonomicon and both Draconomicons). But I clearly remember hearing that the same year PHB III and MM III were to come out, there would also be a DungeonMaster's Guide 3... Was it left on the side of the road to die a silent death in favour of the "Essentials" line (of which I will never purchase a one for myself).

I certainly hope not, since it seems a waste to have spent good money on the "Paragon DMG" and then be denied the Epic one because WOTC changed their business model...
Welcome to the gun show.
Yes, Business model and business decisions have changed in the last months.
Take some time and take a look around these boards, you will find the subject to be much covered in all it's forms. Don't look for anything concrete though, all this information is vague and nothing decisive really, we will have to wait and see how it goes.

-Realize You are your own source of all Creation, of your own master plan.
Since 4e started, I've been getting nearly all the books. Have all the Powers on my shelf but Psionic (was on my Xmas list, but no money to snag it for myself yet). I had no interest in the settings books (I like homebrewing) and the ones with premade adventures (see the previous point), but got those books which were mainly monsters (Open Grave, Demonomicon and both Draconomicons). But I clearly remember hearing that the same year PHB III and MM III were to come out, there would also be a DungeonMaster's Guide 3... Was it left on the side of the road to die a silent death in favour of the "Essentials" line (of which I will never purchase a one for myself).

I certainly hope not, since it seems a waste to have spent good money on the "Paragon DMG" and then be denied the Epic one because WOTC changed their business model...


I believe a developer said it was shelved because it was supoed to have a lot of advice on running epic campaigns and their research indicates very few people are running epic campaigns.  My guess is the data they got from the online Character Builder confirmed that research.

Until they think a DMG with an epic concentration would sell, I would not anticipate a DMG3.  Also, given that they seem to now not want to have numbered books, for fear of alienating consumers who think they have to have DMG 1 and DMG2 to buy DMG3, even if it comes out, I image they'll call it something new, like Epic Dungeon Mastering.
Something like "Epic Level Handbook" or maybe "DM Guide, the Epic Years."
Terms you should know...
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Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner) Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level. Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds. Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
ha ha
56902498 wrote:
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2. The new sub-sub-classes will be: * Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks. * Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank. * Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture. * Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things. * Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind. Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2). These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing. (Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)

I believe a developer said it was shelved because it was supoed to have a lot of advice on running epic campaigns and their research indicates very few people are running epic campaigns.  My guess is the data they got from the online Character Builder confirmed that research.

Until they think a DMG with an epic concentration would sell, I would not anticipate a DMG3.  Also, given that they seem to now not want to have numbered books, for fear of alienating consumers who think they have to have DMG 1 and DMG2 to buy DMG3, even if it comes out, I image they'll call it something new, like Epic Dungeon Mastering.



Which CB do you mean?  Were they collecting data from CCB? And if they were only collecting data from OCB, the lack of epic characters would make sense, since many people that got that far, might not have wanted to switch of OCB, and for less stable campaign, Essentials became a decent reason to reboot campaign that might not have been that healthy.  So a dramatic difference in character levels, tilting towards lower tiers would have been predicatable, but it wouldnt be clear evidence that epic tier campaign weren't being played.  

Though it would make sense that less epic tier games are being played, because it wasn't heavily resourced (it needed strong customization), the math was a bit wacky (skill challenges and encounter threat), and for many folks, after 2 sessions per level for 20 levels, it may have ceased being fun (it being the campaign or 4e, or both).  I would venture a guess another book, helping DMs maintain the vitality of their campaigns, advice on getting players to epic tier and creating epic tier adventures might have greatly helped the number of epic tier campaigns being played. 

So I guess the question I'm interested in is did lack of interest in epic tier games cause the mimimal support epic tier got, or did lack of support decrease interest of playing epic tier campaigns? This isn't really a rhetorical question, or even deeply philosophical one (chicken or the egg).  

Here's my theory: The game as released (classic 4e), and the hot fixes through errata, wasn't as well though out as planned, and/or the system wasn't as amenable to the growth strategy (planned product releases) that was originally envisioned.  I think the abandonment from the original strategy (1 PH, 1 MM, 1 DMG, 1 World book, and subscription income through DDI) came about through a financial necessity that was caused by, for lack of a better word, greed and over confidence, or at the very least lack of success in forecasting their own business model.  

It seems that the intitial release of 4e was successful (based on prolific product development of those early years),  and this gave a good reason for Hasbro/WoTC to put out more products to capitalize on the precieved success (this is where the train might have first went off the tracks).   My theory is that these products didnt meet their sales expectations and may have even lost money, and that is what cause Hasbro to pull support for the game.  DDI could have been a inadvertant casuality in this scenerio.  Essentials was a stop gap measure, and the original plan for DnD, that may or may not have been surprisingly succesful was jetisoned and this could be because corporatations need to report quartly earnings.  The fact that one product line was sucessful 6 quarters ago doesn't mean a hell of alot if its my dividends check that declining.  Future support and investment for that product would be a silly decision for any investor, especially if the earnings forecast has burned me in the past, or the cieling for earnings potential isn't worth the inhereint risk of investment.  

If you buy this scenerio, then its possible to conclude that DM3 was killed long before WoTC announced the Essentials Line.  It was killed when they first started producing books that lost money.  As I look at my shelf and see 5 power books, 2 draconomicons, 3 planes books...it obvious to me, where the train went off the tracks.  DM3 was doomed by the success of DM1.   

RULE 0 FALLACY You can also work around some of these problems by invoking the Rule 0 Fallacy ("this rule isn't broken because I can fix it"). In this case, when the system is inappropriately reporting failure or success, the DM should simply ignore it. But if the mechanics are so broken that we need to frequently ignore them, why are we using them at all?


So I guess the question I'm interested in is did lack of interest in epic tier games cause the mimimal support epic tier got, or didn't lack of support decrease interest of playing epic tier campaigns? 



The classic chicken-and-egg question...
Opps! I edited my original post because i didn't think anyone had read it yet.  And yes, we were thinking the exact same thing, and I decided that I wanted the question to go further.  Probably to far, but I can't sleep... 
RULE 0 FALLACY You can also work around some of these problems by invoking the Rule 0 Fallacy ("this rule isn't broken because I can fix it"). In this case, when the system is inappropriately reporting failure or success, the DM should simply ignore it. But if the mechanics are so broken that we need to frequently ignore them, why are we using them at all?
Honestly, it's not unreasonable for them to wait awhile to release it. Only so many campaigns have ever actually reached epic at this point. If we're very generous and assume that the average campaign progresses at 3 encounters per week, that's still over a year. Many many many campaigns never get that far, and many others don't progress that quickly. That said, they really should release it eventually, once they've gotten their general direction figured out again.
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Agreed (with Incenjucar).  I'm just suggesting that it might not happen, based on the possible financial reality that I laid out and I hope I'm wrong.  I also think that DMG2, even though it was clearly paragon based, wasn't only useful for paragon tiered campaign. I know that personally it really inspired me to keep buying 4e products and grow my game in the hopes that I could keep players interested for long enough to get to paragon.  I think that most the really great gaming products generally have useful benefits beyond their stated purpose, and thats what makes them great! Like DMG2.  DMG2 is almost good enough to be a recommended buy for almost any table top RPG I've played, or even any video/board/card game designer.  

If DMG2 didn't sell well or as well as forecast, it might have been because of the glut of products that came out right around it, and that DMGs would naturally sell less because of their intended audience, after all the average table only has 1 DM and 5 players.  

I think a DMG3 more than any other specific product line could do a lot to help resusitate (sp?) DnD. Thats my primary motivation for hammering on this so hard.  It's a legacy product line, and it has had a great track record for quality, compared to the others, and I think it may do more for the overall brand than a quarterly earnings sheet would give it credit for.  
RULE 0 FALLACY You can also work around some of these problems by invoking the Rule 0 Fallacy ("this rule isn't broken because I can fix it"). In this case, when the system is inappropriately reporting failure or success, the DM should simply ignore it. But if the mechanics are so broken that we need to frequently ignore them, why are we using them at all?
Which CB do you mean?  Were they collecting data from CCB? And if they were only collecting data from OCB


I meant the OCB, but I didn't say they were only collecting data from it.  In fact, the developer's comment that few people were playing epic campaigns was made prior to there even being an OCB.  They got that data through basic market research, I presume.

Though it would make sense that less epic tier games are being played, because it wasn't heavily resourced (it needed strong customization)


I think less epic tier campaigns are player because games start at or about level 1, and it can take years of constant play to reach level 21.  Lots of campaigns die natural deaths before then and people start new campaigns at lower levels.

So until they have an indication that a significant number of people are playing epic campaigns, I don't think we'll see another DMG.

I love DMG2, but I'm not sure there's a whole lot more to say about DMing in general that makes it worthy fo a hardcover book.  The more DMGs you put out, the more niche the advice is going to be.
Unless I'm running for Players new to 4e, my games start at level 11.  The game is just better when players have a reasonably full compliment of abilities and powers.
Which CB do you mean?  Were they collecting data from CCB? And if they were only collecting data from OCB


I meant the OCB, but I didn't say they were only collecting data from it.  In fact, the developer's comment that few people were playing epic campaigns was made prior to there even being an OCB.  They got that data through basic market research, I presume.

Though it would make sense that less epic tier games are being played, because it wasn't heavily resourced (it needed strong customization)


I think less epic tier campaigns are player because games start at or about level 1, and it can take years of constant play to reach level 21.  Lots of campaigns die natural deaths before then and people start new campaigns at lower levels.

 

I don't usually start campagins at level one?  Because of this very reason.  

So until they have an indication that a significant number of people are playing epic campaigns, I don't think we'll see another DMG.

 

Theres a chance that they won't because of the current trajectory of the game.  I think that would be a bad thing. 


I love DMG2, but I'm not sure there's a whole lot more to say about DMing in general that makes it worthy fo a hardcover book.  The more DMGs you put out, the more niche the advice is going to be.



If you are right, and on this particular point I respectfully disagree, this could be offered as evidence of the end of 4e's life cycle.  I just hope it not.   One reason I disagree is because there are also books about love, betrayal, and even non fiction books about slavery, greed, and human nature, and it could argued that there's "not more to be said about" those things, but I hope not. I think theres plenty of unexplored territory, or at least simply fixes that need to be addressed with 4e.  At very least, DMG's provide some good inspiriation, which is what keeps me motivated to keep motivating my players.  And that, is getting harder and harder.  Fortune cards don't seem all that insprining to me.  
RULE 0 FALLACY You can also work around some of these problems by invoking the Rule 0 Fallacy ("this rule isn't broken because I can fix it"). In this case, when the system is inappropriately reporting failure or success, the DM should simply ignore it. But if the mechanics are so broken that we need to frequently ignore them, why are we using them at all?
It's a shame that DMG3 is on the back burner, but I understanmd why.  I love DMGs - I often something inspirational in them, even if I have heard most of it before. 

What I'd like to see is a mix of more tools (monster themes, traps, skill challlenges, rules for aquatic combat etc etc); some play examples with commentaries (good/ bad/ room for improvement - especialy combat tricks and ideas for role-playing); celebrity tips and stories (like the Player's strategy guide); and useful lists (names, artifacts, room furnishings etc.)

I'd also like something new and shiny - but I have no idea what that could be.
Playing Scales of War

Rogue.jpg

i doubt we will see an epic campagin DMG3 soon, the group i run has been running 11 weeks now and i have them level each week, the campagin is going stronger then ever and in 10 weeks we will be the only epic teir campagin i know of in the MD/DC/VA area (ill slow down the leveling at level 21 though) 

the problem i have with most ways campagins are run is that most of them mill around heroic or lower paragon teir for ever and thats why i made this concept because at our games every week you bring something new to the table and its fun, heroic teir gets boring after a while

and as such most of the "my big bad super duper character build" threads dont really mean anything since almost no one gets to use them anyway (but my players will)
Nice.  Do you actually use xp as recommended by the books, which generally require 7-8 combats, 1 major quest, and a skill challenge for each level (mixed and matched at will).  Or do you use story leveling?  And how often do you play?  1 or twice a week? 

I don't use the standard xp either, and just try to make sure there is enough combats to learn new how to strategically use their new powers, against various types of encounters, before I level them.  I probably could do if faster now that people have really gotten use to the system.   

But these alternative leveling strategies I think highlight a potential usefulness for more epic tier resource development.  I think a book on epic tier alone would not be that worthwhile, but i think there's plenty of other topics a DMG3 could cover, such advanced advice on the revised skill challenge system.  I think a DMG3 could help with customizing the new monster math (since DM Kit and Monster Vault doesn't do this at all).  I think the templates system could use a reboot.  I also think the DMG3 can include information about how to keep campaigns exciting, so that they even get to epic teir.  I think the reason that very few campaigns get to epic is because the game naturally isn't that fun once it gets there, or can't be.  I think they don't get there, because there's not really a reason too.   
RULE 0 FALLACY You can also work around some of these problems by invoking the Rule 0 Fallacy ("this rule isn't broken because I can fix it"). In this case, when the system is inappropriately reporting failure or success, the DM should simply ignore it. But if the mechanics are so broken that we need to frequently ignore them, why are we using them at all?
Which CB do you mean?  Were they collecting data from CCB? And if they were only collecting data from OCB


I meant the OCB, but I didn't say they were only collecting data from it.  In fact, the developer's comment that few people were playing epic campaigns was made prior to there even being an OCB.  They got that data through basic market research, I presume.


But, I always wonder, how many people are not playing epic, because of the lack of support, optional rules, advice, solid monsters, and the like. A DMG that really, really focuses on making epic easy to DM might help people start at level 21 and really crank things up to 11.

Epic can be scary right now, and a book detailing how to play might help. 

Though it would make sense that less epic tier games are being played, because it wasn't heavily resourced (it needed strong customization)


I think less epic tier campaigns are player because games start at or about level 1, and it can take years of constant play to reach level 21.  Lots of campaigns die natural deaths before then and people start new campaigns at lower levels.

So until they have an indication that a significant number of people are playing epic campaigns, I don't think we'll see another DMG.

I love DMG2, but I'm not sure there's a whole lot more to say about DMing in general that makes it worthy fo a hardcover book.  The more DMGs you put out, the more niche the advice is going to be.



In addition to the epic tier advice, a DMG 3 could focus on the newly re-revised Skill Challenge mechanics, for those people who don't want to by Essentials. There's still a lot of problems and concerns with that mechanic, and some more options and advice will always help. 
It could republish the damage and DC tables. And how about more monster creation advice, possibly focusing on the dos-and-don'ts of epic monsters. 

Given we've seen Sigil in the DMG2, we'd need a new location for DMG3. I imagine it might be nice to get a more detailed look at some Astral dominions and descriptions of high level places and locals, such as where god go shopping and what economies based entirely around diamonds are like.

As it will have a high-level and high-power slant, it will likely assume more experienced DMs. So it might be good to treat it as an Advanced DM's Guide, really focusing on customization and alternate ways of play, and more advice for really making the game your own. More on making your own powers and magic items, and customizing content. Where you can tweak the game and the possiblities, and the pitfalls to avoid. Generally all the stuff they'd never include in an Essentials DM kit.  

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Nice.  Do you actually use xp as recommended by the books, which generally require 7-8 combats, 1 major quest, and a skill challenge for each level (mixed and matched at will).  Or do you use story leveling?  And how often do you play?  1 or twice a week? 

I don't use the standard xp either, and just try to make sure there is enough combats to learn new how to strategically use their new powers, against various types of encounters, before I level them.  I probably could do if faster now that people have really gotten use to the system.   

But these alternative leveling strategies I think highlight a potential usefulness for more epic tier resource development.  I think a book on epic tier alone would not be that worthwhile, but i think there's plenty of other topics a DMG3 could cover, such advanced advice on the revised skill challenge system.  I think a DMG3 could help with customizing the new monster math (since DM Kit and Monster Vault doesn't do this at all).  I think the templates system could use a reboot.  I also think the DMG3 can include information about how to keep campaigns exciting, so that they even get to epic teir.  I think the reason that very few campaigns get to epic is because the game naturally isn't that fun once it gets there, or can't be.  I think they don't get there, because there's not really a reason too.   



i did away with XP they just gain levels assuming they did something, and they havent failed to move along yet. we play once a week. see with their leveling stratgey you have to play for 2 years to go from 1-21 however i think after level 21 they got to do a little bit more then that to level, i dont know adsactly what the basis will be but it wont be once a week.

i would think a DMG3 should look not just at epic tier but more advice on moving campagins along however more for the epic tier is needed as well. 
Honestly, it's not unreasonable for them to wait awhile to release it. Only so many campaigns have ever actually reached epic at this point. If we're very generous and assume that the average campaign progresses at 3 encounters per week, that's still over a year. Many many many campaigns never get that far, and many others don't progress that quickly. 


I concur. The campaign I am in is lucky to have 1 encounter per session (4-hr sessions with a big party), and sometimes as little as 1 encounter per 3 sessions (for really big encounters).

Then again, that is partially due to the fact that we have a huge 11-player party, but even still - it is an example of a much slower leveling curve (we have been playing 2.5 months since I joined the game and our 11th level characters have only gained 600 XP in that entire time). At this rate, I fully expect that the entire campaign will conclude before we reach 13th level!

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There are days when I wish my old account did not screw up with the transition to gleemax. Having been a member since 2008 doesnt carry near the same prestige as having been a member since 2003, not that it matters lol.

Honestly, it's not unreasonable for them to wait awhile to release it. Only so many campaigns have ever actually reached epic at this point. If we're very generous and assume that the average campaign progresses at 3 encounters per week, that's still over a year. Many many many campaigns never get that far, and many others don't progress that quickly. 


I concur. The campaign I am in is lucky to have 1 encounter per session (4-hr sessions with a big party), and sometimes as little as 1 encounter per 3 sessions (for really big encounters).

Then again, that is partially due to the fact that we have a huge 11-player party, but even still - it is an example of a much slower leveling curve (we have been playing 2.5 months since I joined the game and our 11th level characters have only gained 600 XP in that entire time). At this rate, I fully expect that the entire campaign will conclude before we reach 13th level!



Big parties are fun, but can run into trouble with attendance issues. I hope yours doesn't end up unable to keep going due people failing to show up.
I always wonder, how many people are not playing epic, because of the lack of support, optional rules, advice, solid monsters, and the like.


I don't know.  I'm running an epic campaign right now.  I haven't had any problem finding appropriate monsters to challenge my players.  I don't use many optional rules and I haven't found "support" lacking.

I'm not saying there's no reasong for an Epic DMG.  I'm just saying the lack of one really shouldn't be discouraging many people from playing in the epic tier.  At any rate, I assume that if the powers that be see lots of people playing to high paragon and then stopping, they might think people need a nudge.  I'd find that very unlikely.

In addition to the epic tier advice, a DMG 3 could focus on the newly re-revised Skill Challenge mechanics, for those people who don't want to by Essentials.


I really hope they don't simply republish materials from another book for an Epic DMG. 

Given we've seen Sigil in the DMG2, we'd need a new location for DMG3. I imagine it might be nice to get a more detailed look at some Astral dominions and descriptions of high level places and locals, such as where god go shopping and what economies based entirely around diamonds are like.


We have a lot of that in Secrets of the Astral Sea and Secrets of the Elemental Chaos, and Demonomicon.  (And the City of Brass gets a decent write up in the Scales of War.)  Of course, you could always add another one in an Epic DMG, but I can't think of an iconic epic city that fits in the Points of Light Setting.  Maybe the City of Dis in the Hells? 

So it might be good to treat it as an Advanced DM's Guide, really focusing on customization and alternate ways of play, and more advice for really making the game your own. More on making your own powers and magic items, and customizing content. Where you can tweak the game and the possiblities, and the pitfalls to avoid. Generally all the stuff they'd never include in an Essentials DM kit.  


I'd really like that.  But I think they should wait another year or two to realease it. 
I always wonder, how many people are not playing epic, because of the lack of support, optional rules, advice, solid monsters, and the like.


I don't know.  I'm running an epic campaign right now.  I haven't had any problem finding appropriate monsters to challenge my players.  I don't use many optional rules and I haven't found "support" lacking.


So... because someone who'se been playing for four editions doesn't have a problem there are no problems? 
I think a book on Epic advice might be good for DMs both new and old. I just think think it would be a good place to also put advanced DM advice, tips, tricks, and optional rules as the last three DM-specific books were all aimed at fairly new DMs.

More advice on Epic is a good idea, on what seperates an "Epic" adventure from just Eeroic adventures that are really high level. Given they keep getting Dungeon pitches that are essentially high-level Heroic tales I would say this is a problem. 
Epic campaign arcs are another good way to do this. A few examples of some really good plane-spanning, world saving camapaigns and things you can only do at level 21+.

More monster making advice would also be good because Epic monsters have whole different design limitations. They need higher damage, larger areas of attack, and generally to feel more badass. They also need to make sure they're not focusing on a single energy type as it's really easy to stack-up resistances in the Epic tier. And Epic monsters need some resistances, because it's also easy to stack vulnerabilities and have a well-run group all do the same damage. 

I'm not saying there's no reasong for an Epic DMG.  I'm just saying the lack of one really shouldn't be discouraging many people from playing in the epic tier.  At any rate, I assume that if the powers that be see lots of people playing to high paragon and then stopping, they might think people need a nudge.  I'd find that very unlikely.


I think it's more people not starting at Epic, or going back to Heroic after being bogged down in mid to late Paragon.

In addition to the epic tier advice, a DMG 3 could focus on the newly re-revised Skill Challenge mechanics, for those people who don't want to by Essentials.


I really hope they don't simply republish materials from another book for an Epic DMG. 


If a 4e player didn't buy the Rule Compendium because it was 99% "republish materials from another book", they'd never see the new Skill Challenge rules and advice. It should go into another book, and DMG3 is a good place. 

Given we've seen Sigil in the DMG2, we'd need a new location for DMG3. I imagine it might be nice to get a more detailed look at some Astral dominions and descriptions of high level places and locals, such as where god go shopping and what economies based entirely around diamonds are like.


We have a lot of that in Secrets of the Astral Sea and Secrets of the Elemental Chaos, and Demonomicon.  (And the City of Brass gets a decent write up in the Scales of War.)  Of course, you could always add another one in an Epic DMG, but I can't think of an iconic epic city that fits in the Points of Light Setting.  Maybe the City of Dis in the Hells? 


A city or locale probably isn't mandatory (needless symetry) but I just think it'd be fun to show where extremely high level adventurers rub shoulders. The City of Brass would have been a good choice if it hadn't shown-up in Scales of War and Plane Below. It might have to be a new location, but the City of Dis might be fun. A dark place where there's a tenative truce between servants of gods and servants of devils. Or maybe someplace like Valhalla where the PCs can rest and recouperate and hobknob with great heroes from the past but are unlikely to find people to help them outside the city because most of the inhabitants can't leave. 

So it might be good to treat it as an Advanced DM's Guide, really focusing on customization and alternate ways of play, and more advice for really making the game your own. More on making your own powers and magic items, and customizing content. Where you can tweak the game and the possiblities, and the pitfalls to avoid. Generally all the stuff they'd never include in an Essentials DM kit.  


I'd really like that.  But I think they should wait another year or two to realease it.


They've already waited two years. Waiting until 2013 seems really far ahead and likely on the toes of 5e. 

5 Minute WorkdayMy Webcomic Updated Tue & Thur

The compilation of my Worldbuilding blog series is now available: 

Jester David's How-To Guide to Fantasy Worldbuilding.

I always wonder, how many people are not playing epic, because of the lack of support, optional rules, advice, solid monsters, and the like.


I don't know.  I'm running an epic campaign right now.  I haven't had any problem finding appropriate monsters to challenge my players.  I don't use many optional rules and I haven't found "support" lacking.


So... because someone who'se been playing for four editions doesn't have a problem there are no problems?


I didn't say that.  In fact, I opened with "I don't know" to specifically make clear that I don't know whether more people would play in the epic tier with more support or not.

I was only saying that the epic tier is playable as is without more support.

I think it's more people not starting at Epic, or going back to Heroic after being bogged down in mid to late Paragon.


I think we're all (that includes me) just speculating based on what we'd like to be true.

A city or locale probably isn't mandatory (needless symetry) but I just think it'd be fun to show where extremely high level adventurers rub shoulders.


I wasn't going for symmetry, but if you're going to have advice for an epic campaign, you're going to want to give a sample of where epic characters hang out because they have nothign to do in the World (other than save it) and they're already getting too big for Sigil. 

But I think they should wait another year or two to realease it.


They've already waited two years. Waiting until 2013 seems really far ahead and likely on the toes of 5e. 

Epic DMing seems like the kind of thing that could cross-over between editions.  Plus, it could have advice on closing a campaign, which is a good segue into 5e.
I didn't say that.  In fact, I opened with "I don't know" to specifically make clear that I don't know whether more people would play in the epic tier with more support or not.

I was only saying that the epic tier is playable as is without more support.


I was just teasing. Laughing

I think it's more people not starting at Epic, or going back to Heroic after being bogged down in mid to late Paragon.


I think we're all (that includes me) just speculating based on what we'd like to be true.


I was going off of what a few bloggers have said. I know the "Chatty DM" rewound his 4e campaign from Paragon to Heroic with the same characters to make it a little easier to play. And I know there's maybe a half-dozen Epic tier monsters in Essentials and no monster creation rules.

But I think they should wait another year or two to realease it.


They've already waited two years. Waiting until 2013 seems really far ahead and likely on the toes of 5e. 


Epic DMing seems like the kind of thing that could cross-over between editions.  Plus, it could have advice on closing a campaign, which is a good segue into 5e.

You'd think so... 
One of the last books (if not the last book) released for 3e was Elder Evils, which was all about end-of-the-world threats and apparently included some good campaign arcs and outlines. But is rather rare because no one bought it because everyone was winding things down or phoning them in, in anticipation of 4e. If they release a big "Book of the Epic Tier" in the last six months of 4e people will react with comments of "nice, but why didn't they do it sooner when I'd have a chance to use it".

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Jester David's How-To Guide to Fantasy Worldbuilding.

If they release a big "Book of the Epic Tier" in the last six months of 4e people will react with comments of "nice, but why didn't they do it sooner when I'd have a chance to use it".


They'll say that for any book released in the last 6 months of 4e.  Under this theory, WotC should just shut down for a year before releasing 5e.  That's not going to happen.  An Epic DMG makes a good capstone for an edition.
If they release a big "Book of the Epic Tier" in the last six months of 4e people will react with comments of "nice, but why didn't they do it sooner when I'd have a chance to use it".


They'll say that for any book released in the last 6 months of 4e.  Under this theory, WotC should just shut down for a year before releasing 5e.  That's not going to happen.  An Epic DMG makes a good capstone for an edition.



Really? because they appear to be shutting down now... cancelled products, lower quality/quantity articles on the website, etc...etc...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
they appear to be shutting down now... cancelled products, lower quality/quantity articles on the website, etc...etc...


Lokiare:
me:
I suspect there is little market for a DMG3. We don't know the numbers for DMG2, but despite the book being very good I would guess sales were not spectacular. A third book will sell less.

What might work better is a smaller book focused on a more specific need. A book on encounter design, including various really cool encounters and some monsters and traps and terrain... that might have enough appeal. It could include sidebars on Epic to increase the reach of the book without derailing its purpose.

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Really? because they appear to be shutting down now... cancelled products, lower quality/quantity articles on the website, etc...etc...


They've slowed from an insane amount of products per year to a merely acceptable number, and this is somehow bad. 160 pages of book each and every month is just too much and not sustainable. 
We also know making a new edition can be a long process. They started preliminary work on 5e back in 2005, for a 2008 release. If they wanted to release in 2014 they'd need to start now. But, they've also been hacking away at their staff since the release of 4e, and filling the gaps with freelancers, as they needed fewer people to sustain an edition than create an edition. However, now that they're thinking 5e the shortages hurt a little more and they'd have to rely almost entirely on freelancers to keep the current line afloat. So instead of sacraficing quality they cut quantity.

At least that's one theory... 

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The compilation of my Worldbuilding blog series is now available: 

Jester David's How-To Guide to Fantasy Worldbuilding.

they appear to be shutting down now... cancelled products, lower quality/quantity articles on the website, etc...etc...


Lokiare:
me:



You know, I've been thinking of just quoting people on this forum and posting nothing but the panic smilie in response.  This is not being snippy or sarcastic, I really do think this would be the best use of my posts.

Because so many people seem to think the sky is falling.  And will not listen to any evidence to the contrary.

So from now on, if someone acts like the sky is falling, they get this



or this



or both.
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- ) Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition. Salla: opinionated, but commonly right.
fun quotes
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69216168 wrote:
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?[/quote]
Thanks for the feedback guys (sorry for the late reply, I had not gotten any notice of replies...) looks like I'd done buying 4e products once I get Psionic Power. Good to know. If they ever do release DMG3 (with that title) I'll get it.

I'm not going to encourage WOTC's bid to restart everything so that people buy the same things multiple times.
I know it might be frowned upon to revive this, but I'm still wondering if people are waiting to play Epic until they get more support (like I am), or if the same amount of people would play Epic as now if they'd released support for it?

Mainly, I ask this because the third (and likely fourth) Draconomicons were also killed with the "restart" of 4e in Essentials. Though I suppose I should be somewhat happy that they included the hatchlings for the new Dragons in MM3...
Which CB do you mean?  Were they collecting data from CCB? And if they were only collecting data from OCB


I meant the OCB, but I didn't say they were only collecting data from it.  In fact, the developer's comment that few people were playing epic campaigns was made prior to there even being an OCB.  They got that data through basic market research, I presume.

Though it would make sense that less epic tier games are being played, because it wasn't heavily resourced (it needed strong customization)


I think less epic tier campaigns are player because games start at or about level 1, and it can take years of constant play to reach level 21.  Lots of campaigns die natural deaths before then and people start new campaigns at lower levels.

So until they have an indication that a significant number of people are playing epic campaigns, I don't think we'll see another DMG.

I love DMG2, but I'm not sure there's a whole lot more to say about DMing in general that makes it worthy fo a hardcover book.  The more DMGs you put out, the more niche the advice is going to be.



I'd probably disagree with the last paragraph. I have had a lot of use out of the DMG2- it contains a lot of new game mechanics and ideas that are pretty priceless.

My regrets about the DMG3 are- it was never released, the abandonment of the numbering releases (PHB 4 anybody??).

If this book is ever released I am very sad it will be after the Essentials corruption of 4E. Basically, it will be essentialized- and that makes me a sad panda. I wish the DMG3 was released while Heinsoo, Collins, Noonan, Slavicsek and Schubert were still employed by WotC.
If this book is ever released I am very sad it will be after the Essentials corruption of 4E. Basically, it will be essentialized- and that makes me a sad panda. I wish the DMG3 was released while Heinsoo, Collins, Noonan, Slavicsek and Schubert were still employed by WotC.


98% of Essentials is a different way of building characters. From a DM's perspective it has had very little impact on the mechanics of running a game. I fail to see how a DMG3 would be 'corrupted' by Essentials. And this is coming from someone who doesn't particularly care for E-classes.
If this book is ever released I am very sad it will be after the Essentials corruption of 4E. Basically, it will be essentialized- and that makes me a sad panda. I wish the DMG3 was released while Heinsoo, Collins, Noonan, Slavicsek and Schubert were still employed by WotC.


98% of Essentials is a different way of building characters. From a DM's perspective it has had very little impact on the mechanics of running a game. I fail to see how a DMG3 would be 'corrupted' by Essentials. And this is coming from someone who doesn't particularly care for E-classes.



Well, with the coming of essentials we had a revision of the monster stats (a huge enough of a change that Wizards felt the need to release monthly updates of the Monster Manual creatures), a nerfing of magic items into a rarity system, a move towards tokens instead of minis (although 2012 will see a release of minis again), a revision of the difficulty class table, the move from a monster manual to monster vaults, random magic item tables, rare magic items getting a bump up in powers (encounter powers as powerful as daily), and so on. If these changes constitute the 2% of the remainder your terrible percentage, well, that speaks for itself. everything above impacts a DMG (and not the PC realm).

But, I could have just have as easily said 'the Essentials fluffyness of 4E', or 'the Essentials supersillyrenditioness of 4E', there really isn't much you can do about it. It is how I feel about the Essentials Era of 4E and I could care less if you agree with me or not.
Well, with the coming of essentials we had a revision of the monster stats (a huge enough of a change that Wizards felt the need to release monthly updates of the Monster Manual creatures), a nerfing of magic items into a rarity system, a move towards tokens instead of minis (although 2012 will see a release of minis again), a revision of the difficulty class table, the move from a monster manual to monster vaults, random magic item tables, rare magic items getting a bump up in powers (encounter powers as powerful as daily), and so on. If these changes constitute the 2% of the remainder your terrible percentage, well, that speaks for itself. everything above impacts a DMG (and not the PC realm). But, I could have just have as easily said 'the Essentials fluffyness of 4E', or 'the Essentials supersillyrenditioness of 4E', there really isn't much you can do about it. It is how I feel about the Essentials Era of 4E and I could care less if you agree with me or not.



1. Monster Manual 2 gave us nifty stuff like minions with roles, as well as adjusted the monster's stats to be more in-line with the original Dungeon Master's Guide.  Monster Manual 3 increased the deadliness of monsters, my guess is to ensure that even with monsters that are 2 levels below the lowest level party member, the party would still be threatened significantly.  The changes to the original Monster Manual -- reflected in the Monster Vault and other monster updates -- merely reflect the intent in the changes made in the previously released material.

2.  The Rarity System never actually "nerfed" any magic items; even when you look in Mordenkainen's Magic Emporium and reprints of magic items with their rarity added, you'd find that the material released have, at worst, included the errata that had been released in previous updates.  The only thing that it did was allow the DM tighter control of magic items, with the full awareness that there are certain possible item/feat/power combinations that might ruin some of the games run by certain DMs, and the item rarity would make those items a reward rather than another item in the grocery list.

3.  Since when did any Dungeon Master's Guide -- or any reference, for that matter -- insist the use of any specific item to represent monsters or characters?  Tokens, minis, icons, origami, even potato chips with markings on them for all I care... all of them can be used to represent creatures and/or objects on a grid.  If you're feeling mighty creative, you might even want to put in super-realistic terrain with miniatures, lighting, etc. BUT that still doesn't change the fact that it works just as well, in terms of representing where you are on the map, if you put in poker chips on a 20"x30" illustration board with a grid and plastic covering you can use a white marker on.

I'd like to see that 4E book that states that you must use tokens or minis when playing the game.  (not that anyone can't just ignore it anyway)

4. The difficulty class table has been revised already, it's an old errata that's been there since... last year I think.  Then they released an updated DC table in Heroes of the Fallen Lands (at 8/12/19 + 1/2 level, instead of 5/10/15 + 1/2 level, give or take).  What sort of changes are you talking about?  If you're thinking about the articles written by Mike Mearls, it's likely going to appear in 5E, not 4E, due to the way it completely scraps the existing skill system.

5. Monster Manual, Monster Vault, different name, same banana, neither is related to Dungeon Master's Guide 3.

6. Random magic item tables?  Oh you must mean the one defined in the Rules Compendium instead of the one in the Dungeon Master's Guide.  Well, aside from the fact that nobody is telling you to use the one in the former instead of the one in the latter, I wouldn't be surprised if Dungeon Master's Guide 3 would contain both, or maybe even a third option if need be (personally though, I find that while the idea of having everything jam-packed into one book allows players to easily play the game with just one book, it easily gets messy and redundant).

7. Magic items in the rarity have rarely been considered as that good even in the forums.

- - - - -
I would likely expect the following from Dungeon Master's Guide 3:

1. Epic tier support. DMG began with heroic tier play, DMG 2 focused on paragon tier play, so naturally DMG 3 would likely go for epic tier play.
2. Alternative forms of storytelling/gaming.  DMG gave us a sort of "new DM's guide to DM'ing", DMG 2 already gave us Vignettes and other nifty "extras", so the DMG 3 I'm expecting to see things like copy-pastes of what's already released in Dragon's Unearthed Arcana (strongholds, gambling, jousting, minions, etc.) as well as other forms of roleplay that might have not reached DMG 2.
3. Expansion on the Alternative Rewards list.
4. Additional houserule suggestions.

As for it being "an Essentials corruption of 4E", I look at Heroes of Shadow, and while the new options don't seem as appealing hardcore-wise as the original content, I see no reason why Essentials wouldn't be at least considered, because in spite of the changes it had introduced, as long as they keep Dungeon Master's Guide 3 in context -- as in, for Dungeon Master support only (and not the mish-mash hell that they did with the Essentials books [at least that's how I see it, orgaization-wise]) -- I'll be happy enough
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This is what I believe is the spirit of D&D 4E, and my deal breaker for D&D Next: equal opportunities, with distinct specializations, in areas where conflict happens the most often, without having to worry about heavy micromanagement or system mastery. What I hope to be my most useful contributions to the D&D Community: DM Idea: Collaborative Mapping, Classless 4E (homebrew system, that hopefully helps in D&D Next development), Gamma World 7E random character generator (by yours truly), and the Concept of Perfect Imbalance (for D&D Next and other TRPGs in development) Pre-3E D&D should be recognized for what they were: simulation wargames where people could tell stories with The Best Answer to "Why 4E?" Fun vs. Engaging
 
I would likely expect the following from Dungeon Master's Guide 3:

1. Epic tier support. DMG began with heroic tier play, DMG 2 focused on paragon tier play, so naturally DMG 3 would likely go for epic tier play.
2. Alternative forms of storytelling/gaming.  DMG gave us a sort of "new DM's guide to DM'ing", DMG 2 already gave us Vignettes and other nifty "extras", so the DMG 3 I'm expecting to see things like copy-pastes of what's already released in Dragon's Unearthed Arcana (strongholds, gambling, jousting, minions, etc.) as well as other forms of roleplay that might have not reached DMG 2.
3. Expansion on the Alternative Rewards list.
4. Additional houserule suggestions.
 



And that is a full complement if stuff for
 Epic Dungeon Mastering : A Dungeon Masters Guide 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Well, with the coming of essentials we had a revision of the monster stats (a huge enough of a change that Wizards felt the need to release monthly updates of the Monster Manual creatures), a nerfing of magic items into a rarity system, a move towards tokens instead of minis (although 2012 will see a release of minis again), a revision of the difficulty class table, the move from a monster manual to monster vaults, random magic item tables, rare magic items getting a bump up in powers (encounter powers as powerful as daily), and so on. If these changes constitute the 2% of the remainder your terrible percentage, well, that speaks for itself. everything above impacts a DMG (and not the PC realm). But, I could have just have as easily said 'the Essentials fluffyness of 4E', or 'the Essentials supersillyrenditioness of 4E', there really isn't much you can do about it. It is how I feel about the Essentials Era of 4E and I could care less if you agree with me or not.



1. Monster Manual 2 gave us nifty stuff like minions with roles, as well as adjusted the monster's stats to be more in-line with the original Dungeon Master's Guide.  Monster Manual 3 increased the deadliness of monsters, my guess is to ensure that even with monsters that are 2 levels below the lowest level party member, the party would still be threatened significantly.  The changes to the original Monster Manual -- reflected in the Monster Vault and other monster updates -- merely reflect the intent in the changes made in the previously released material.

2.  The Rarity System never actually "nerfed" any magic items; even when you look in Mordenkainen's Magic Emporium and reprints of magic items with their rarity added, you'd find that the material released have, at worst, included the errata that had been released in previous updates.  The only thing that it did was allow the DM tighter control of magic items, with the full awareness that there are certain possible item/feat/power combinations that might ruin some of the games run by certain DMs, and the item rarity would make those items a reward rather than another item in the grocery list.

3.  Since when did any Dungeon Master's Guide -- or any reference, for that matter -- insist the use of any specific item to represent monsters or characters?  Tokens, minis, icons, origami, even potato chips with markings on them for all I care... all of them can be used to represent creatures and/or objects on a grid.  If you're feeling mighty creative, you might even want to put in super-realistic terrain with miniatures, lighting, etc. BUT that still doesn't change the fact that it works just as well, in terms of representing where you are on the map, if you put in poker chips on a 20"x30" illustration board with a grid and plastic covering you can use a white marker on.

I'd like to see that 4E book that states that you must use tokens or minis when playing the game.  (not that anyone can't just ignore it anyway)

4. The difficulty class table has been revised already, it's an old errata that's been there since... last year I think.  Then they released an updated DC table in Heroes of the Fallen Lands (at 8/12/19 + 1/2 level, instead of 5/10/15 + 1/2 level, give or take).  What sort of changes are you talking about?  If you're thinking about the articles written by Mike Mearls, it's likely going to appear in 5E, not 4E, due to the way it completely scraps the existing skill system.

5. Monster Manual, Monster Vault, different name, same banana, neither is related to Dungeon Master's Guide 3.

6. Random magic item tables?  Oh you must mean the one defined in the Rules Compendium instead of the one in the Dungeon Master's Guide.  Well, aside from the fact that nobody is telling you to use the one in the former instead of the one in the latter, I wouldn't be surprised if Dungeon Master's Guide 3 would contain both, or maybe even a third option if need be (personally though, I find that while the idea of having everything jam-packed into one book allows players to easily play the game with just one book, it easily gets messy and redundant).

7. Magic items in the rarity have rarely been considered as that good even in the forums.

- - - - -
I would likely expect the following from Dungeon Master's Guide 3:

1. Epic tier support. DMG began with heroic tier play, DMG 2 focused on paragon tier play, so naturally DMG 3 would likely go for epic tier play.
2. Alternative forms of storytelling/gaming.  DMG gave us a sort of "new DM's guide to DM'ing", DMG 2 already gave us Vignettes and other nifty "extras", so the DMG 3 I'm expecting to see things like copy-pastes of what's already released in Dragon's Unearthed Arcana (strongholds, gambling, jousting, minions, etc.) as well as other forms of roleplay that might have not reached DMG 2.
3. Expansion on the Alternative Rewards list.
4. Additional houserule suggestions.

As for it being "an Essentials corruption of 4E", I look at Heroes of Shadow, and while the new options don't seem as appealing hardcore-wise as the original content, I see no reason why Essentials wouldn't be at least considered, because in spite of the changes it had introduced, as long as they keep Dungeon Master's Guide 3 in context -- as in, for Dungeon Master support only (and not the mish-mash hell that they did with the Essentials books [at least that's how I see it, orgaization-wise]) -- I'll be happy enough



Ugh.

1. The changes in MM3 were finalized with the Monster Vault. Whether or not the changes were in momentum, they were made concrete with the release of Essentials. People hide behind the fact that Wizards was going in this direction or not. The point is, the Evergreen made this change permanent, not the Monster Manual 3.

2. Yes- the rarity system nerfed magic items. If you bother to read the Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium, which I own, rare magic items now have an encounter ability THAT USED TO BE DAILY. This was done to make rare items more unique and more old school- balance thrown out the window for more powerful magic items- thus rarity nerfed magic items.

3. Since the DMG stopped being printed and the Essentials Dungeon Master's Kit replaced it as Evergreen. That kit contains tokens and non miniatures. Also, random miniatures DDM was canned. The Rules Compendium cites the rules examples with pictures of tokens, not miniatures. The TREND is that tokens are now referenced instead of minis. NEVER did I say that the DMG insists that you have to use tokens/miniatures. It's just that tokens are the staple instead of minis- something that the EVERGREEN product promotes!

4. AGAIN- the new DC tables were made into EVERGREEN and replaced the old DC tables that my Deluxe DMG had. Who cares if it was errata before- printed evergreen makes it permanent.

5. Monster Vault is still a REALM OF DMING!! The first DMG had rules to level up or level down monsters, add templates, creat monsters. This 'banana is tied in with the DMG- period.

6. The printed EVERGREEN has random magic item tables, not the parcel system.

7. I care less if the rare systems has been considered 'good'. The forums are not the official printed version of D&D. The Essentials Evergreen is.

Since the Core books were stopped in printing, and Essentials was made evergreen, you have to look at the rules the evergreen is promoting. Essentials, and the era afterwards, is justified is being referenced as corrupted. Massive volumes of DDI articles are being written to bring CORE back into the fold of the current 'design philosophy of Essentials.

Instead of releasing a .5 edition, we just got Essentials and a slow 'revision' of older material into being 'Essentialized' that's corruption to me.
1. The changes in MM3 were finalized with the Monster Vault. Whether or not the changes were in momentum, they were made concrete with the release of Essentials. People hide behind the fact that Wizards was going in this direction or not. The point is, the Evergreen made this change permanent, not the Monster Manual 3.



There were no changes in math or presentation from MM3 to the MV. Nothing was 'finalized' between them. The same monster stat blocks also appeared in other non-Essentials books like the Dark Sun Creature catalog before that time. The change pre-dates Essentials. Not only that, you're the first person I've ever encountered to object to the changes. Monsters that are actually a threat and stat blocks that are more readable are generally considered to be Good Things.

2. Yes- the rarity system nerfed magic items. If you bother to read the Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium, which I own, rare magic items now have an encounter ability THAT USED TO BE DAILY. This was done to make rare items more unique and more old school- balance thrown out the window for more powerful magic items- thus rarity nerfed magic items.



I don't think you know what 'to nerf' means. It means to take something powerful and reduce its power. What you are saying is the opposite. At any rate, if you don't like rares, don't use them. The vast majority of items are Uncommon and they work the same as they ever did.

3. Since the DMG stopped being printed and the Essentials Dungeon Master's Kit replaced it as Evergreen. That kit contains tokens and non miniatures.



"And non-miniatures"? What the heck are you talking about? And are you really MAD that WotC is offering DMs a cheap, flexible alternative to collecting expensive minis?!?

4. AGAIN- the new DC tables were made into EVERGREEN and replaced the old DC tables that my Deluxe DMG had. Who cares if it was errata before- printed evergreen makes it permanent.



There is no "deluxe" DMG. There was a DMG that came in a box set, but it was the same as the DMG you bought alone. Anyway, if you're accusing Essentials content of including up-to-date errata, well, uh.... guilty as charged???

Blah blah Evergreen blah blah EVERGREEN blah blah EVERGREEN ESSENTIALS



Capitalizing "evergreen" a lot does not make it a thing. Honestly I'm not even sure what you're talking about.

Well, obviously you don't like the direction D&D is going in. You're entitled to your opinion. But Essentials is a specific line of books and style of class design and most of the changes you object to were in motion before it or really have nothing to do with it. I guess if you don't like errata and tougher monsters then it's true that you probably wouldn't like a DMG3, because it would doubtless include those things. Of course the real meat of a DMG tends to be advice and inspiration on how to run a great game, much of which will be applicable no matter what 'version' of 4e or even what RPG you play. That was certainly the case with the first two. If you want to ignore really useful, solid material like that just because "OMG ITEM RARITY!!11!" be my guest. The rest of us will go on looking forward to it and/or mourning its loss if it never comes out.
The deluxe are the three core books that had all the errata updated in them. I stand my ground- Essentials ushered in changes to a lot of aspects of D&D that suck. Making a rare magic item more powerful than an uncommon is destroying the balance of magic items. Nerf should be changed to unbalanced. I don't resent tokens, per say, I just resent that they replaced miniatures. However, we are getting minis again.

Evergreen is powerful. Borders, before it closed, was where I ran delves every other week for new players. The PHB, MM and DMG were no longer there for purchase. The Essentials line was. What is in print becomes the officially sanctioned rules, the most exposed to casual buyers. Essentials superseded Core, rewrote and printed over it.
 
I would likely expect the following from Dungeon Master's Guide 3:

1. Epic tier support. DMG began with heroic tier play, DMG 2 focused on paragon tier play, so naturally DMG 3 would likely go for epic tier play.
2. Alternative forms of storytelling/gaming.  DMG gave us a sort of "new DM's guide to DM'ing", DMG 2 already gave us Vignettes and other nifty "extras", so the DMG 3 I'm expecting to see things like copy-pastes of what's already released in Dragon's Unearthed Arcana (strongholds, gambling, jousting, minions, etc.) as well as other forms of roleplay that might have not reached DMG 2.
3. Expansion on the Alternative Rewards list.
4. Additional houserule suggestions.
 



And that is a full complement if stuff for
 Epic Dungeon Mastering : A Dungeon Masters Guide 



I fully agree, so long as it don't assume that you're using Essentials... I refuse to rebuy everything, so I've not gotten any Essentials, stuff, but sections that don't work if you just have magic items working the old way (no "rarity" rating, for example), would make DMG3 rather disappointing for me.

Of course, I'll also never know when it comes out because I wouldn't know what new name to look out for. That's why I liked the 4e numbering system. Should new players pick up PHB2? Sure! But don't expect to have all the rules to build a new character in there, or descriptions of the roles and such. That's what the first PHB is for.