02/02/2011 BoaB: "Let's Do That Again: Besieged Edition"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Building on a Budget, which goes live Wednesday morning on magicthegathering.com.
Ok, Jacob one question for you: why does your opponent in game 3 against the valakut deck cast a Cultivate if you have a Mindlock Orb in play? 
"I drew a Sphere of the Suns, cast it, tapped it, cast Preordain"

Sphere comes into play tapped.
Given the previous two posts, sounds like there was some sloppy play going on.
30 mins after the column came out there was no comments and I forgot to point out those flaws. At any rate I imagine they proxied it up and got very very careless.
i miss ben.




I might have sounded cruel, and I know I dont have to read this article, but it still doesnt take away from the fact that Ben was much better than Jacob at this column.
^^ Ditto that. Ben was much more genuinely creative, rather than flipping a few cards in existing tournament decks. Also, I liked reading short writeups of 20 or so games, rather than agonizingly detailed ones of just two samples. It's just not enough to get a good feel of how the deck is.
Ok, Jacob one question for you: why does your opponent in game 3 against the valakut deck cast a Cultivate if you have a Mindlock Orb in play?

I was wondering the same thing.  Maybe it was actually Explore.
"Eventually, I would reach such a mana economy that I would be able to put two extra turns on the stack alongside an army of Thopter tokens and attack for lethal damage."

Take as many turns as you want; you'll still only ever have five Thopter tokens.  Sure, I can see how you get to the point where you can actually attack with them instead of sacrificing them to the Sieve, but it seems really unimpressive and is hardly right to call the default option an army.

Tezzeret seem like he's a true win condition for you.

It amuses me that an unkicked Sadistic Sacrament has the potential to simply win the game, taking out all three of your win conditions even after board.  From MBS, Magnetic Mine and Sangromancer seem to easily counter the deck.

I dunno, I don't like the deck.  Some people seem to be excited about this combo being in Extended, though, so I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Hmm, this is a very interesting combo/deck. I like it, but as the above poster pointed out, a single sad sac would essentially ruin you. I wonder what other options you could add to make it fun in Legacy.

Also, I'm confused as to how in the one Valakut game he managed to deal 36 dmg after sac'ing all his lands for the valakuts and the mountains. Did I miss count the amount of lands he had before he sac'd for 8?
"I drew a Sphere of the Suns, cast it, tapped it, cast Preordain"

Sphere comes into play tapped.



Yeah, this leapt out screaming at me, too.  Wonder if JVL meant a different card?

^^ Ditto that. Ben was much more genuinely creative, rather than flipping a few cards in existing tournament decks. Also, I liked reading short writeups of 20 or so games, rather than agonizingly detailed ones of just two samples. It's just not enough to get a good feel of how the deck is.



Uhm, I much prefer it when I read a report of a match (games 1, 2, and 3) than single games against various netdecks.  Too often the budget brew wins one game against some netdeck and I'm left going "waitaminnit, there were some awfully lucky circumstances in that game - I think that was cherry picked."  I'm just saying, a match is better at proving which deck is better, since luck of the draw is involved.  That's why we play in matches, and not in games.

"Eventually, I would reach such a mana economy that I would be able to put two extra turns on the stack alongside an army of Thopter tokens and attack for lethal damage."

Take as many turns as you want; you'll still only ever have five Thopter tokens.  Sure, I can see how you get to the point where you can actually attack with them instead of sacrificing them to the Sieve, but it seems really unimpressive and is hardly right to call the default option an army.

Tezzeret seem like he's a true win condition for you.



Five is an army, when you've got multiple turns to use it in.  Or have you not yet been beaten down ten turns straight by a pair of Squadron Hawks in Standard?  :P  Especially since Tezzeret can make those five flyers into 5/5's.  And they won't lose flying when he does so.

Hmm, this is a very interesting combo/deck. I like it, but as the above poster pointed out, a single sad sac would essentially ruin you. I wonder what other options you could add to make it fun in Legacy.

Whew, good thing no one runs that card, since it's terrible against every other deck.  :P  Much more likely people will just phyrexian revoker your time sieve and laugh at you.

Also, I'm confused as to how in the one Valakut game he managed to deal 36 dmg after sac'ing all his lands for the valakuts and the mountains. Did I miss count the amount of lands he had before he sac'd for 8?



If you sac 8 lands to go get 6 mountains and two Valakut, you do indeed do 36 divided up any way you choose in handy-dandy packets of three.  Each Valakut triggers 6 times (for six mountains entering the battlefield) for a total of twelve triggers.  Then, for each trigger, the game checks - and sure enough, he has five other mountains besides the one that caused that trigger - so the three damage for that trigger will be dealt.  3x12 = 36.  

Of course, this is chump change.  If he'd been playing extended Valakut Omen, and had an Omen on the BF and Scaped for 8 (including four Valakut/Mountains), he could have done 96 damage - eight triggers times four valakuts times three damage per trigger. 
Frantic Salvage seems like it could be busted in this deck.
Hmm, this is a very interesting combo/deck. I like it, but as the above poster pointed out, a single sad sac would essentially ruin you. I wonder what other options you could add to make it fun in Legacy.

Whew, good thing no one runs that card, since it's terrible against every other deck.  :P  Much more likely people will just phyrexian revoker your time sieve and laugh at you.

Also, I'm confused as to how in the one Valakut game he managed to deal 36 dmg after sac'ing all his lands for the valakuts and the mountains. Did I miss count the amount of lands he had before he sac'd for 8?



If you sac 8 lands to go get 6 mountains and two Valakut, you do indeed do 36 divided up any way you choose in handy-dandy packets of three.  Each Valakut triggers 6 times (for six mountains entering the battlefield) for a total of twelve triggers.  Then, for each trigger, the game checks - and sure enough, he has five other mountains besides the one that caused that trigger - so the three damage for that trigger will be dealt.  3x12 = 36.  

Of course, this is chump change.  If he'd been playing extended Valakut Omen, and had an Omen on the BF and Scaped for 8 (including four Valakut/Mountains), he could have done 96 damage - eight triggers times four valakuts times three damage per trigger. 



Ah, I see... I figured the mountains came into play one at a time... and not all six at the exact same time. That makes sense now. Thank you for the explanation.
"I drew a Sphere of the Suns, cast it, tapped it, cast Preordain"

Sphere comes into play tapped.



Yeah, this leapt out screaming at me, too.  Wonder if JVL meant a different card?



No, JVL is just terrible at writing articles, remembering what actually happened in a matchup, and making decks.

Uhm, I much prefer it when I read a report of a match (games 1, 2, and 3) than single games against various netdecks.  Too often the budget brew wins one game against some netdeck and I'm left going "waitaminnit, there were some awfully lucky circumstances in that game - I think that was cherry picked."  I'm just saying, a match is better at proving which deck is better, since luck of the draw is involved.  That's why we play in matches, and not in games.



While I see what you're trying to say, and would normally agree, what's the point of a "report of a match" when it's something that DIDN'T HAPPEN BECAUSE IT COULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED?

Every article, week after week, he writes about something that couldn't happen.

Ben was 1,000 times better because he actually BUILT decks, and showed the evolution of the deck rather than putting together one version (that, as people have already pointed out folds to SadSac / Memoricide / Thought Hemorrhage).
Frantic Salvage seems like it could be busted in this deck.


A little playtesting, and all I can say is that it's absurd!


I too dislike JVL's style, and quite frankly have found myself tuning into BoaB less and less. What was once twice a week (I know, I know) has turned into "Bored... oh right, there's that one column" every month or two.

As for the deck itself, I find that Sphere of Suns bogs down the drawing potential of the deck. Of course, my replacement of Frantic Salvage defeats the intent, but I feel much better when it goes off and at least five artifacts see the board right after. I can understand the lack of win conditions due to so much draw, but here's a case where I'd argue for diversifying said win conditions. And cutting out a land to at least make them have to use more than one Sacrament to take you out. Salvage Titan, Golem Foundry, and Glassdust Hulk are some candidates for replacing a Thopter Assembly as well as Mr. Tezzeret if you're like me and would rather not shell out $20 at the local shop for him.
Deck blog: http://alurenrecycle.blogspot.com/ http://gureiseion.tumblr.com/
Could the deck work without Elsewhere Flask?  I like the deck concept but I don't have any cards from Lorwynn/Shadowmoore and intend to keep it that way.
Could the deck work without Elsewhere Flask?  I like the deck concept but I don't have any cards from Lorwynn/Shadowmoore and intend to keep it that way.


Within Extended, Alara offers "slower" artifacts that can still give options; Etherium Astrolabe gives some draw power while seeking a Sieve plus Wellspring synergy, and Courier's Capsule offers some means of getting over land "bumps" in your deck.
Deck blog: http://alurenrecycle.blogspot.com/ http://gureiseion.tumblr.com/
It seems like Glaze Fiend might be useful in this deck, especially with Frantic Salvage. It would go a way toward making the deck more aggressive, too. He's resistant to most black removal, too, being a black artifact creature. I might also mention that playsets of GF and Glassdust Hulk together still cost less than two of the Thopters.

Just a turn four kill scenario I can imagine, without perfect draws.

Opening hand: Arcane Sanctum, Sphere of the Suns, Ichor Wellspring, Glaze Fiend, Semblance Anvil, Darkslick Shore, Island

1st turn play Arcane Sanctum
2nd turn draw Time Sieve, play Darkslick Shore, Sphere of the Suns
3rd turn draw Elsewhere Flask, Island, Semblance Anvil imprinting Elsewhere Flask, drop Glaze fiend for B
4th turn draw Prophetic Prism, dump Ichor Wellspring drawing Frantic Salvage, dump Prophetic Prism drawing Elsewhere Flask, dump Elsewhere Flask drawing Island. Swing with Glaze Fiend for 8. Tap Time Sieve sacrificing the four cantrips and Sphere of the Suns. 
Extra Turn 1 - draw Preordain, play Island, Frantic Salvage putting the Sphere beneath the other four on top of your library, then dump them into play.Swing with Glaze Fiend for 10, then sac the artifacts for another turn.
Extra Turn 2 - draw Arcane sanctum. Play Preordain, seeing a land and a kaleidostone below it. Scry the land to the bottom, draw and play the kaleidostone, drawing a Semblance Anvil. Play the anvil imprinting nothing, swing for 4 with Glaze Fiend.

I find that removing a few lands from the deck also helps increase its consistency, and I agree that Sphere of the suns bogs the deck down overall. Golem foundry IMO doesn't give you enough for what you have to put into it. You have to drop 6 artifacts to get two chump blockers, and Open the Vaults won't give it extra counters. Glassdust Hulk's cycling ability is great for this deck as it allows you to dump him early in the game only to bring him out again with Open the Vaults. 

Ultimately I'm not quite sure what to think about this deck- fun is an important factor for me as I'm by and large a casual player. Adding a few more wincons (including Disciple of the Vault, which is obviously evil here) made it more fun to play with than the initial list, but it still is zero fun to play against. It either A. does nothing, or B. makes you sit there and do nothing for 5 turns while it gradually wins or until you concede out of boredom. 

Anyway, this is my first post on this forum and I wouldn't call myself a skilled player by any means, so please don't bite... 
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