Fey Pact boon question

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How exactly do multiple cursed creatures dropping at the same time work in terms of activating the teleportation feature of the Fey Pact boon? Specifically...

Last night our warlock cursed a minion, then blasted the minion, killing it. Instead of using his pact boon, the player used the rod which allows the curse to transfer to all uncursed enemies within 5 squares of the target, netting about 7 other minions and some real monsters. Action Point; Cursegrind.

Does the warlock get to teleport 3 squares once or 3 squares 7 times (21 squares)?

So many PCs, so little time...
That's a good question, and one I wouldn't mind knowing the answer to myself.  As a DM, I'd give the PC 7 individual teleports, and just not worry about it.  Since the Feycharger stuff got nerfed, it's no longer so imbalancing.

  T 
Yeah. I did just kill your BBEG with a vorpal frisbee. Problem?
As a Feylock, whenever an enemy under your Warlock’s Curse is reduced to 0 hit points or fewer, you can immediately teleport 3 squares as a Free Action.

You can Teleport with Fey Pact an unlimited number of times per Round, but only once per Trigger at a time. This is a question of momentum and you cannot delay Triggering Actions once their Trigger has arisen. So if every enemy are killed simultaneously by the same attack, only 1 Fey Pact Boon would answer the Trigger and Teleport using a Free Acton. The subsequent Teleport would get to see their Trigger expired.

Also, bear in mind that the DM can decide to limit the number of Free actions taken uding a turn.

Free Action: In certain circumstances, the DM might decide to limit the use of free actions further. For instance, if an adventurer has already used free actions during a particular turn to talk, drop things, and use a class feature, the DM might rule that the adventurer can use no more free actions during that turn. 

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

As a Feylock, whenever an enemy under your Warlock’s Curse is reduced to 0 hit points or fewer, you can immediately teleport 3 squares as a Free Action.

You can Teleport with Fey Pact an unlimited number of times per Round, but only once per Trigger at a time. This is a question of momentum and you cannot delay Triggering Actions once their Trigger has arisen. So if every enemy are killed simultaneously by the same attack, only 1 Fey Pact Boon would answer the Trigger and Teleport using a Free Acton. The subsequent Teleport would get to see their Trigger expired.

Also, bear in mind that the DM can decide to limit the number of Free actions taken uding a turn.

Free Action: In certain circumstances, the DM might decide to limit the use of free actions further. For instance, if an adventurer has already used free actions during a particular turn to talk, drop things, and use a class feature, the DM might rule that the adventurer can use no more free actions during that turn. 



Ah, thanks. The DM let the player teleport once, but since the warlock player has a feat that allows him to share his boon with allies within a certain distance, other players could trigger a teleport too. We tend to make a ruling at the table, then look it up later, but we couldn't find a clearcut answer.

So many PCs, so little time...
Yeah this is a genuine use of the Feat Shared Pact i must say.  Wink

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Back before they nerfed the Feytouched L11 feature Slashing Wake, you could, with that rod, say to the DM "I do this, and all the minions die.  Everywhere."

That being why they nerfed Slashing Wake, among other similar reasons.

You do in fact get all your teleports.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
If every enemy is killed simultaneously, you have to take all the teleports without interruption. You don't lose any of them.

He's saying they all resolve simultaneously.  So there is no net gain, since you can't do them serially one after the other.  You effectively lose the others, because you can't 'bank' the trigger until after you've resolved the first one.

I agree with Plague.  The trigger is simultaneous, and you choose to teleport your distance for each of them from your current location.  You don't get to choose any of them from your new location, because when you arrive there the trigger is already past.  Edit: To be clear, remember that as a free action they resolve as a reaction.  So the trigger is simultaneous for all of them, you choose all of the teleports simultaneously, then they all resolve as reactions.  Which means you have to make your choice for all of them from the same starting square.

As a Feylock, whenever an enemy under your Warlock’s Curse is reduced to 0 hit points or fewer, you can immediately teleport 3 squares as a Free Action.

You can Teleport with Fey Pact an unlimited number of times per Round, but only once per Trigger at a time. This is a question of momentum and you cannot delay Triggering Actions once their Trigger has arisen. So if every enemy are killed simultaneously by the same attack, only 1 Fey Pact Boon would answer the Trigger and Teleport using a Free Acton. The subsequent Teleport would get to see their Trigger expired.

Also, bear in mind that the DM can decide to limit the number of Free actions taken uding a turn.

Free Action: In certain circumstances, the DM might decide to limit the use of free actions further. For instance, if an adventurer has already used free actions during a particular turn to talk, drop things, and use a class feature, the DM might rule that the adventurer can use no more free actions during that turn. 



If every enemy is killed simultaneously, you have to take all the teleports without interruption. You don't lose any of them.



Free action doesn't mean without time or instantatiously. it would be impossible to take all seven teleports at the same time.
Maybe this is just me, but I see "The Stack" as a concept that has to be used for immediate timing, both reactions and interrupts, or you get breakdowns in the system.  Especially since the "When there are several things happening simultaneously you decide the order" concept is fully established in many other contexts - start of turn events, for example.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition

Free action doesn't mean without time or instantatiously. it would be impossible to take all seven teleports at the same time.



Quite right, but not the way you think.  

Mand reminded me why it is.  Because that's the way it was ruled, numerous times, by the official sources.  It's also why things like Long Night Scions and other damage-on-teleport effects all got a "once per turn" rider added to them.

Because you do get them all.  And not without time or instantaneously.  You just do them one at a time.  Every single one of them.

  T

Yeah. I did just kill your BBEG with a vorpal frisbee. Problem?
Maybe this is just me, but I see "The Stack" as a concept that has to be used for immediate timing, both reactions and interrupts, or you get breakdowns in the system.  Especially since the "When there are several things happening simultaneously you decide the order" concept is fully established in many other contexts - start of turn events, for example.

D&D doesn't have a stack.

And my point has nothing to do with deciding the order ... it has to do with where you are when the trigger happens.  Since all the triggers happen simultaneously, you are in the same starting square for all of the teleports.  Then they actually resolve as reactions at a later resolution point.
Of course it has a stack.  Scenario:  Battlemind and Rogue in flanking positions around an enemy Fighter:

XXX
BFR
XXX

Fighter has marked the Rogue.  Rogue attempts to shift away, triggering Fighter immediate interrupt attack.  Battlemind, though, uses Augment 2 Lightning Rush.

Without the stack, you're saying they resolve simultaneously.  That leads to a system failure, as you now have the Battlemind redirecting the Fighter's attack resolving simultaneously with the Fighter's interrupt of the Rogue's shift.  Let's say the Rogue has 1 HP and the Fighter, whoever he's attacking, rolls a 20.  Is the rogue dead?

In order for this scenario to make any sense whatsoever, there has to be a stack.  The rogue shifts, triggering the Fighter's interrupt, which triggers the Battlemind's interrupt.  The Battlemind's interrupt has to resolve first, redirecting the Fighter's interrupt, which now resolves by whacking the Battlemind in the face, and not the rogue, whose shift resolves without incident.

Immediate interrupts use the last in, first out timing, whereas the immediate reaction stack uses the first in, first out timing.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
If you want to steal the term 'stack', you're welcome to.  What D&D has is triggers and resolutions.  Just be careful you don't incorrectly extrapolate from the term stack to cause yourself to make resolution order mistakes.

For starters, your example just described sequential events, which definitely matches the last in, first out idea from a stack.  But we're talking about a simultaneous trigger here.
That leads to a system failure, as you now have the Battlemind redirecting the Fighter's attack resolving simultaneously with the Fighter's interrupt of the Rogue's shift.  Let's say the Rogue has 1 HP and the Fighter, whoever he's attacking, rolls a 20.  Is the rogue dead?

 

If a Marked Rogue Shift and a Fighter use Combat Challenge, as soon as he will target the Rogue, the Battlemind will Interrupt the Fighter. That"s how it will work.  One Interrupt the other.


In order for this scenario to make any sense whatsoever, there has to be a stack.  The rogue shifts, triggering the Fighter's interrupt, which triggers the Battlemind's interrupt.  The Battlemind's interrupt has to resolve first, redirecting the Fighter's interrupt, which now resolves by whacking the Battlemind in the face, and not the rogue, whose shift resolves without incident.



Exactly. There is no stacking here. Simply a chain reaction with every action coming one after the other, when taken by different people.


Immediate interrupts use the last in, first out timing, whereas the immediate reaction stack uses the first in, first out timing.



All Triggerred Actions using the same Trigger by different people are handled in order of reactions Speed, with Interrupt (Immediate/Opportunity Action)  as last Triggerred resolving first and for Reaction (Immediate Reactions (Free?No Action) each also going in after the Trigger revolves in order of appearing if by different people.  But if you can have an At-Will Triggerred Action allowing you to Teleport and it see itself Triggerred 7 times simultaneously, only 1 Trigger will see use because you move.

Attack can Trigger off simultaneously. A Fighter can both use Combat Superiority and Combat Challenge to make an Opportunity attack and a Melee Basic Attack against an adjacent Marked enemy making a Ranged attack against an one of his ally.

But a Movement is not working simultaneously. How can you Teleport 3 squares away to 7 different location all simulatenaously ?

There is no stacking. And 4E does not handle Simultenaousness very well. Everything has to have a set order. There is resolution of Triggerred Actions, often decided by Initiative count or other ways to determine who goes first. In the event of movement Triggered Actiion, because Free action don"t interrupt themselves, they can 0nly be resolved one after the other, thus getting past their Trigger.

 

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

"But a Movement is not working simultaneously. How can you Teleport 3 squares away to 7 different location all simulatenaously ?"

The effect of the boon generates movement, but it is not a Move Action - and as I pointed out above, you don't execute them all simultaneously.  To suggest you do is to introduce a red herring - there isn't anywhere in the rules that says you must do so.  

Misty Step is not an immediate reaction nor an interrupt, it is a pact boon.  It has, as do all of them, a triggering condition - reducing an enemy to 0hp (or bloodied with the right feat or item).  That you collect a whole bunch of them and spend them right then is just the way it works.  Show me where it says you couldn't.  

  T 
Yeah. I did just kill your BBEG with a vorpal frisbee. Problem?
Show me where it says you couldn't.



I don't disagree with your overall point, but this is the Munchkin fallacy.  Don't use it as a basis for a rules decision.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition

It's a little confusing.

I understand that 7 triggers go off at the same time of Misty Step.

At this point, I choose 7 squares to teleport to. Each of the 7 squares I teleport to must be, at the most, 3 squares away from my current location.

I have 7 teleports wanting to happen right now. I choose what order to take these teleports.

I teleport to my first square.

- Do I lose my other 6 teleports?

If I don't lose them, I can teleport again and again (6 more times).

Basically, did I just teleport 7 times as 7 free actions all within a 7x7 square/cube?

But a Movement is not working simultaneously. How can you Teleport 3 squares away to 7 different location all simulatenaously ?


Haven't you seen any Star Trek? There's like a half-dozen episodes where the transporter creates a duplicate of someone.
Ever feel like people on these forums can't possibly understand how wrong they are? Feeling trolled? Don't get mad. Report Post.
Misty Step is not an immediate reaction nor an interrupt, it is

a free action.  And as such is resolves as an immediate reaction.

Edit: That said, it's only presented as a power in the Compendium.  If the correct version of it (which is NOT a power) isn't a free action, you are indeed correct.  In that case, it wouldn't resolve as a reaction.

Show me where it says you couldn't.



I don't disagree with your overall point, but this is the Munchkin fallacy.  Don't use it as a basis for a rules decision.



I understand your point, but in this case, that's really what it boils down to.  There isn't any comparable circumstance, to my knowledge, where you can pile up a stack of X identical effects.  I would also agree with you that under most circumstances, my point would be a disengagement on the level of "I'm taking my toys with me" - but as I mentioned, there isn't any applicable rule other than the CS answers which previously made the Feyslasher a DPR machine before it was nerfed.

All other pact boons operate the same way - something dies, you get it and you spend it.  Though Infernal and Fell Might have other conditions that make them reduce to a singular instance (that being THP non-stack and Fell Might only being an "on" or "off" condition).   

[shrug]

  T 
Yeah. I did just kill your BBEG with a vorpal frisbee. Problem?
As a Feylock, whenever an enemy under your Warlock’s Curse is reduced to 0 hit points or fewer, you can immediately teleport 3 squares as a Free Action.

You can Teleport with Fey Pact an unlimited number of times per Round, but only once per Trigger at a time. This is a question of momentum and you cannot delay Triggering Actions once their Trigger has arisen. So if every enemy are killed simultaneously by the same attack, only 1 Fey Pact Boon would answer the Trigger and Teleport using a Free Acton. The subsequent Teleport would get to see their Trigger expired.

Also, bear in mind that the DM can decide to limit the number of Free actions taken uding a turn.

Free Action: In certain circumstances, the DM might decide to limit the use of free actions further. For instance, if an adventurer has already used free actions during a particular turn to talk, drop things, and use a class feature, the DM might rule that the adventurer can use no more free actions during that turn. 



If every enemy is killed simultaneously, you have to take all the teleports without interruption. You don't lose any of them.



Free action doesn't mean without time or instantatiously. it would be impossible to take all seven teleports at the same time.



No it wouldn't if the dm was particularly mean. Random part of you body ends up at teleport destination 1, another random part at destination 2, etc, as 7 teleport effects try to work at once, ripping you apart (unless you choose the same location 7 times).

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Where's the fun in that?

It's a little confusing.

I understand that 7 triggers go off at the same time of Misty Step.

At this point, I choose 7 squares to teleport to. Each of the 7 squares I teleport to must be, at the most, 3 squares away from my current location.

I have 7 teleports wanting to happen right now. I choose what order to take these teleports.

I teleport to my first square.

- Do I lose my other 6 teleports?

If I don't lose them, I can teleport again and again (6 more times).

Basically, did I just teleport 7 times as 7 free actions all within a 7x7 square/cube?




You get to teleport 6 more times, yes. What's your point?



There is no point, I'm a little confused and I'm going through a step by step process of how I think it would work.

If it doesn't work the way I think, I'm hoping someone will show me which step is wrong and how to correct it.
Trigger happens (7 times simultaneously).
Choose destination squares from you current square (spend free action to do so)
Resolve free actions as reactions (choose order).
  - Teleport once ... and the others are no longer valid since you aren't in the start square any more.
Done.

Edit: Personally I like the idea of a multi-teleport to all squares simultaneously, ending up in just one of them after a moment of existence in 7 squares all within 3 squares of each other. 
You cannot delay a Trigger past the moment when it occurs to use use at another point in time and space. The Rules are pretty clear on this.  After the 1st Teleport, you are specifically past the point of "when an enemy under your Warlock’s Curse is reduced to 0 hit points or fewer..."Its done. He has drop and you Teleported away.


RC 95 Trigger:
A Trigger defines the moment the creature is allowed to use the Power.


RC 195 Triggererd Actions: A Triggerred action is any action that can be taken only when a specific Trigger occurs.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

You use them all when triggered.  But they resolve as reactions.  You don't 'bank' the teleports and decide each where to make each one from your new location ... the new location is arrived at after the trigger point, since a reaction specifically resolves after the trigger point.

If they were instantaneous at the triggering point, you'd be right.  Use one, resolve it, use the other, resolve it, etc.  But you use all of them, then you resolve them ... and after you've resolved the first one you are done, because you can no longer resolve any of the others.
If multiple actions trigger from the same event, you perform all the triggered actions in sequence.



You have a Quote about sequencing ?

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Each enemy is reduced to 0 HP, and then the Warlock teleports, and then the next enemy is reduced to 0 HP, and then the Warlock teleports, and so on.



Each enemy is reduced to 0 HP and then the Warlock Teleport.....then ? No one else drop because Misty Step is a Reaction. No Teleport occur before the Trigger, as you  seem to imply.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

They all die at the same time, from the exact same effect.  So all the triggers occur at the same time.  Once one is resolved, the triggering time has passed for the others.  Is what the argument seems to be.
Which arrives at the second argument.  All teleports trigger at the same time, under the same conditions.  You can teleport 7 times, but each teleport has to begin at the same origin square.  Or so the argument goes.
As I've said previously, that statement is an utter fabrication.



No, what is an utter fabrication is the notion of sequence to which you haven't provided a single Quote to support what you've said previously.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

I see no sequence described anywhere at all. Can you Quote it ?

Here's where you are wrong. You assume you take your Triggered Action one after the other when their Trigger happens simultaneously.

Simultaneous Triggerring Events = Simultaneous Triggerring Power.
Before Teleporting, you have 7 Triggers. Not 1 then 1 then 1 as the enemies fall one after the other.

When the 7 enemies drop to 0 HP, 7 instances of Misty Steps Trigger at once allowing you to Teleport from your space (currently occupied at time of Trigger) to a space 3 squares away.


Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

196 ? No sequence wherever i look. That's what i thought.

So in conclusion, nothing states that multiple Triggered Actions all Triggerring off the same event are handled in sequence one after the other or whatever so to delay them.

So they are not. They happen simultaneously. You immediatly simultaneously can Teleport 3 squares 7 times.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

The text he quoted...

"An immediate reaction waits for its trigger to finish, not necessarily for the action containing the trigger to finish."

...IS on page 196, second paragraph.
The argument "there is no simultaneity" also applies to the triggering events. So the whole thing is null. It isn't possible for enemies to drop to 0 hp simultaneously, the attack sequence in the RC doesn't allow it. So it'd be drop to 0 hp > teleport > resolve next attack > drop to 0 hp > teleport > and this would go on like this till all 7 were done.
The text he quoted... "An immediate reaction waits for its trigger to finish, not necessarily for the action containing the trigger to finish." ...IS on page 196, second paragraph.



This is completly irrevelant to the discussion guys. What this means is if you have a Triggerring Action with a Trigger saying an enemy attacks you, it means your Immediate Reaction will trigger after he resolves attacking, but before he finishes his whole Standard action and his second attacks with Twin Strike for exemple.

Also, just making 1 thing clear here. A Reaction waits for its Trigger to resolves, not for other Triggerring Actions Triggerring off the same Trigger to resolves.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

This is completly irrevelant to the discussion guys. What this means is if you have a Triggerring Action with a Trigger saying an enemy attacks you, it means your Immediate Reaction will trigger after he resolves attacking, but before he finishes his whole Standard action and his second attacks with Twin Strike for exemple.

That isn't true. The old rule was you waited for the whole action to resolve before you could React. The new rule is explicit that you only wait for the Trigger to finish, not any other part of the action. This rule is ridiculous in a lot of cases, but the RC is pretty clear on this point. This is why the new Paladin mark can kill a minion before the attack roll.

This is completly irrevelant to the discussion guys. What this means is if you have a Triggerring Action with a Trigger saying an enemy attacks you, it means your Immediate Reaction will trigger after he resolves attacking, but before he finishes his whole Standard action and his second attacks with Twin Strike for exemple.

That isn't true. The old rule was you waited for the whole action to resolve (Standard Action) before you could React. The new rule is explicit that you only wait for the Trigger to finish, not any other part of the action. This rule is ridiculous in a lot of cases, but the RC is pretty clear on this point. This is why the new Paladin mark can kill a minion before the attack roll.




No Immediate Reaction, in my PHB have always worked like this. See for yourself: (Action = attack, move etc... not Standard action)


PHB 286 Immediate Reaction: The triggering action, event, or condition occurs and is completely resolved before you take your reaction, except that you can interrupt a creature’s movement. If a creature triggers your immediate reaction while moving (by coming into range, for example), you take your action before the creature finishes moving but after it has moved at least 1 square. An immediate reaction might interrupt other actions a combatant takes after its triggering action. For example, if a power lets you attack as an immediate reaction when an attack hits you, your action happens before the monster that hit you can take any other action. If a monster has a power that lets it make two attack rolls against you as a standard action, and the first one hits, you can use an immediate reaction before the next attack roll.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Yeah, I wasn't clear. You're correct on how it used to work, not how it currently does.
The argument "there is no simultaneity" also applies to the triggering events. So the whole thing is null. It isn't possible for enemies to drop to 0 hp simultaneously, the attack sequence in the RC doesn't allow it. So it'd be drop to 0 hp > teleport > resolve next attack > drop to 0 hp > teleport > and this would go on like this till all 7 were done.



This touches something though Alestis.

But if you allow this, what happen if after the first enemy dropping to 0 HP you Teleport away while doing a Blast attack ? Do you Still attack the others ? Weird...

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Based on the the tongue-twister...

"Trigger to resolves, not for other Triggerring Actions Triggerring off the same Trigger to resolves. "

I think he's making the mistake of thinking that the seven minions have all died "simultaneously", which isn't the case either. Whatever attack or effect is causing their deaths is checked and resolved individually for each minion.
This touches something though Alestis.

But if you allow this, what happen if after the first enemy dropping to 0 HP you Teleport away while doing a Blast attack ? Do you Still attack the others ? Weird...

You can teleport yourself out of range... though with a Close Burst 20 that isn't likely. ^.^ You could also teleport OOR of all but one, hit that one, and teleport back, and be fine. I said the new rule was ridiculous in a lot of cases.