The doppelganger novice power and traits - a hard question

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Had a question about how the doppelgang novice power works. What I'm wondering is whether the doppelganger they create gets the traits of both origins, the doppelganger origin only, or what. In other words, if it's a doppelganger hawkoid, does the doppelganger they make have a fly speed?

In particular I'm GMing someone who rolled a doppelganger pyrokinetic. I'm wondering whether the doppelganger they spawn would have the fiery aura trait.

Secondly and related to this, would the doppelganger be able to use it's own doppelganger critical if the duplicate hit, considering that the critical creates another doppelganger? How does that work? Or just take the 1d10 extra damage and forget about the rest? I'm confused.
Had a question about how the doppelgang novice power works. What I'm wondering is whether the doppelganger they create gets the traits of both origins, the doppelganger origin only, or what. In other words, if it's a doppelganger hawkoid, does the doppelganger they make have a fly speed?



A doppleganger's clone gains all abilities of the character's other origin. They are not able to use doppleganger powers but are free to use all other aspects of the other origin. This includes the fly speed of the hawkoid origin.

[quot]In particular I'm GMing someone who rolled a doppelganger pyrokinetic. I'm wondering whether the doppelganger they spawn would have the fiery aura trait.


Yes, the character's doppleganger would have the firey aura trait.

Secondly and related to this, would the doppelganger be able to use it's own doppelganger critical if the duplicate hit, considering that the critical creates another doppelganger? How does that work? Or just take the 1d10 extra damage and forget about the rest? I'm confused.



No, the clone cannot transfer the benefits of a critical hit it makes onto the original character who crated it. While it would be able to do the 1d10 extra damage, doppleganger clones cannot use doppleganger powers so the second part of the critical is moot in this case.

As per page 38.
"Effect: You create a duplicate of yourself in an unoccupied square within 5 squares of you.
The duplicate acts in the initiative order directly after you and can take all the actions that you can take, except that it can't use doppelganger powers, Alpha Mutations, or Omega Tech. Its statistics are the same as yours, except that it has only 1 hit point. Your duplicate disappears when it drops to 0 hit points or at the end of your next turn."

Now, if the character chose to attack instead of create a clone and got a critical hit, then the character could create a clone as a free action. Since a doppleganger's clone cannot use doppleganger powers, it could not create a clone as a free action since creating the clone is a doppleganger power.

"Doppelganger Critical (level 2 or 6): When you score a critical hit, the attack deals 1d10
extra damage, and you can use double trouble as a free action."

Double trouble is the name of a power. If it said: You can create a clone of yourself. Then it might be possible, but the critical clearly states a doppleganger power.
While we're on the topic of doppelganger powers...

I have a question about the Doppelganger utility, Two Places At Once.  The text states:
"Choose an unoccupied square within 5 squares of you.  You simultaneously occupy that square and your current square.  Before the start of your next turn, you can teleport to the chosen square as a free action."

So my questions are:
1) Does this mean that the other self 5 squares away can also attack?  Be attacked?  It's not quite like the Double Trouble power since that doppelganger has it's own hit points.  This could really hurt a character who gets hit twice (the original and the teleported doppelganger).

2)  So even though it's not your own turn, you can teleport to the new location or does this imply that you would have to do it within the same turn you activated it?
While we're on the topic of doppelganger powers...

I have a question about the Doppelganger utility, Two Places At Once.  The text states:
"Choose an unoccupied square within 5 squares of you.  You simultaneously occupy that square and your current square.  Before the start of your next turn, you can teleport to the chosen square as a free action."

So my questions are:
1) Does this mean that the other self 5 squares away can also attack?  Be attacked?  It's not quite like the Double Trouble power since that doppelganger has it's own hit points.  This could really hurt a character who gets hit twice (the original and the teleported doppelganger).

This is a character who is in two places at once. It means different angles of attack, different points of view, ability to truly attack around corners, etc. It does not mean there are two of the character with double actions! There is no "original" and "copy" here, they are one and the same. So if the character happens to be in the same zone effect or area attack, the character is struck ONCE, not twice.

2)  So even though it's not your own turn, you can teleport to the new location or does this imply that you would have to do it within the same turn you activated it?


Free actions can be taken at any time regardless of whose turn it is. So "before the start of your next turn" means that you can take the action at any point during the intervening time period between the activation of the power and when your turn starts again. A free action is not an interrupt or reaction action. So if someone attacks you before you choose to teleport to the other space, you are struck by the attack. It does, however, mean that if you are grappled in such a way that only teleportation can free you, then you can get out of it by teleporting to the other location.

Free actions can be taken at any time regardless of whose turn it is. So "before the start of your next turn" means that you can take the action at any point during the intervening time period between the activation of the power and when your turn starts again.



Also note that you can even do it in the middle of someone else's attack!

So, like, I'm here and                                                                       here.

A froghemoth tries to eat me                                                        here.

And before he eats me, I decide I'm really

...back over here.

Swing and a miss! Stupid froghemoth.

Caoimhe Ora Snow

Game Designer, The Queen's Cavaliers

5e D&D Stuff: Birthright Conversion

So long as it's done before the attack is actually made.
While we're on the topic of doppelganger powers...

I have a question about the Doppelganger utility, Two Places At Once.  The text states:
"Choose an unoccupied square within 5 squares of you.  You simultaneously occupy that square and your current square.  Before the start of your next turn, you can teleport to the chosen square as a free action."

So my questions are:
1) Does this mean that the other self 5 squares away can also attack?  Be attacked?  It's not quite like the Double Trouble power since that doppelganger has it's own hit points.  This could really hurt a character who gets hit twice (the original and the teleported doppelganger).

This is a character who is in two places at once. It means different angles of attack, different points of view, ability to truly attack around corners, etc. It does not mean there are two of the character with double actions! There is no "original" and "copy" here, they are one and the same. So if the character happens to be in the same zone effect or area attack, the character is struck ONCE, not twice.



First, thanks for being so helpful!  On to my questions, so can enemies attack the "other" self?  If I use this power, there are two versions of me on the board.  If I'm facing 2 enemies, can they each choose to target a different version of me? 

So if I'm attacked by these 2 enemies (each targeting a different version of me) and they hit, what should happen? Since the power can't interrupt or react, wouldn't both attacks be successful and I'd be essentially hit twice?

I guess if that case came up, I would just have to choose which one of me is attackable?

Would I be able to give myself a combat advantage using this (flanking)?
While we're on the topic of doppelganger powers...

I have a question about the Doppelganger utility, Two Places At Once.  The text states:
"Choose an unoccupied square within 5 squares of you.  You simultaneously occupy that square and your current square.  Before the start of your next turn, you can teleport to the chosen square as a free action."

So my questions are:
1) Does this mean that the other self 5 squares away can also attack?  Be attacked?  It's not quite like the Double Trouble power since that doppelganger has it's own hit points.  This could really hurt a character who gets hit twice (the original and the teleported doppelganger).

This is a character who is in two places at once. It means different angles of attack, different points of view, ability to truly attack around corners, etc. It does not mean there are two of the character with double actions! There is no "original" and "copy" here, they are one and the same. So if the character happens to be in the same zone effect or area attack, the character is struck ONCE, not twice.



First, thanks for being so helpful!  On to my questions, so can enemies attack the "other" self?  If I use this power, there are two versions of me on the board.  If I'm facing 2 enemies, can they each choose to target a different version of me? 

So if I'm attacked by these 2 enemies (each targeting a different version of me) and they hit, what should happen? Since the power can't interrupt or react, wouldn't both attacks be successful and I'd be essentially hit twice?

I guess if that case came up, I would just have to choose which one of me is attackable?

Would I be able to give myself a combat advantage using this (flanking)?

Both attacks, if they successfully hit, would take effect. That is not to say that you couldn't teleport to one location after an attack is successful on one of your locations. This is because attacks are not simultaneous and you could do your free action between them.

I would rule that flanking will not happen unless they are attacking the same "instance" of you and are on opposing sides of said instance. Flanking will not occur if they are attacking the different versions of you.

Both are attackable (you are in both places at once). If you do not teleport to a single space, you may take damage from two opponents if both attacks succeed.
Hmm..here's another doppelganger issue I'm not sure of. Using the pyrokinetic doppelganger example again, what if the pyroganger uses his pyro utility power to give him the Azula-esque fly speed with his minor action, moves through the air with his move action, and then uses his standard action with his novice doppelganger power...


Would the doppelganger have the fly speed, even though it was already used and used by the original rather than the clone? And since the power lasts until the end of your next turn, what about the reverse..the clone using the power and the original benefiting from it as well? Thanks again.
Hmm..here's another doppelganger issue I'm not sure of. Using the pyrokinetic doppelganger example again, what if the pyroganger uses his pyro utility power to give him the Azula-esque fly speed with his minor action, moves through the air with his move action, and then uses his standard action with his novice doppelganger power...


Would the doppelganger have the fly speed, even though it was already used and used by the original rather than the clone? And since the power lasts until the end of your next turn, what about the reverse..the clone using the power and the original benefiting from it as well? Thanks again.


The clone would have the fly speed if it used the pyrokinetic power that gives it that ability. It does not gain the fly speed simply because the original used the power.

The original never benefits from effects that target the clone does IE: if the clone drinks a healing potion, the original will not gain hit points (as an example). For all intents and purposes, they are two, separate entities.

Read the description of the power: You create a clone, it has all the same abilities as you only it cannot use doppleganger powers, omega tech, or alpha mutations. It can perform the same actions as you (minor, standard, move). It has 1 hit point.

Think of it this way, if you had two different characters, and one had leaping ability and jumped, would the other gain the same leaping speed? It's the same with the doppleganger and the clone. Two completely different individuals, one just can't use doppleganger powers, omega tech, or alpha mutations (the clone). Effects do not transfer between them if they're "on" when the clone is made or when the clone disappears.
In answer to the Colonel's question about using 'Two Places At Once' to flank, the flanking rule (GW pg18) states that to flank "you and an ally must be adjacent to an enemy and on opposite sides of the enemies space". Going by the targeting rules on pg26 "You aren't your ally", so technically you can't flank with yourself. Having said that, i'd still be tempted to let the GM decide as this is an unusual case that I don't think the rules were designed to cover. Assuming that your 'other half' is allowed to face in any direction when it appears (there aren't really any facing rules in GW), then you could have it appear behind the enemy and every cut or thrust you make would be mirrored behind it, which I can see being difficult to defend against and would grant combat advantage (but not double damage, see below).

The other problem with Two Places At Once is movement. If you activated the power and then moved, your other half should move appropriately (it should do everything you do as it is, in fact, you). However, the power specifically states that "you can teleport to the chosen square as a free action", so if you moved then activated the teleport you would suddenly rubber-band back to the targeted square regardless of where that 'half' of you was now standing. This leads me to believe that your 'other half' doesn't move to help simplify the power.
Technically you can still make your 'other half' appear 5 squares upwards, at which point the GM has to decide whether you fall or not (you are both on solid ground and in mid air simultaneously). Going by my previously ruling of "your other half doesn't move" you wouldn't fall until you decided to teleport to that square, and then would fall normally if you couldn't fly. Floating in mid air does have a number of useful applications including attacking flying enemies and getting books off a top shelf.

One thing I would add is that you could potentially try to use this power to attack two enemies at once. I would say that this isn't something a utility power is designed to do and probably isn't in the spirit of the game. From a game point of view I would rule that, unlike the other two doppleganger powers that specifically create duplicates, with Two Places At Once you have split yourself across space and as such have to concentrate on one viewpoint at a time in order to do somethng as complex as fighting (if it was something simple like pressing two buttons at once I would generally allow that). As always interpretation is up to the GM so i'd check with them before the session starts to make a ruling on all the above.

Based on the previous responses I believe it has been established that whatever the doppleganger and their clone does are mutually exclusive (especially in terms of activated powers).

My question is this, say for example you have a Doppleganger/Rat Swarm mutant and the following (simplified) scenario occurs:

Round 1: The doppleganger uses "Double Trouble" to create a clone.
Round 2: The clone uses "Swarm!" (Encounter power) on a foe. The clone disappears/dies.
Round 3: The doppleganger uses "Double Trouble" to create a new clone.

Question: Will the new clone also be able to use "Swarm!"? Was it only the first clone that used up the encounter power? Or does its use count towards all future clones for that encounter? Or would the clones simply keep regaining "Swarm!" because the original (doppleganger) still hasn't used it yet?

But then would the reverse also be true? As the clone is a duplicate of the doppleganger, if the doppleganger used "Swarm!" prior to creating a clone would all those clones also have "Swarm!" expired/used?

There isn't a definitive answer on this. It's a gray area in the rules, but I've been playing it (and ammo) as you can only use your encounter power once, and you can use it or your doppelganger can use it, but not both.

Caoimhe Ora Snow

Game Designer, The Queen's Cavaliers

5e D&D Stuff: Birthright Conversion


Based on the previous responses I believe it has been established that whatever the doppleganger and their clone does are mutually exclusive (especially in terms of activated powers).

My question is this, say for example you have a Doppleganger/Rat Swarm mutant and the following (simplified) scenario occurs:

Round 1: The doppleganger uses "Double Trouble" to create a clone.
Round 2: The clone uses "Swarm!" (Encounter power) on a foe. The clone disappears/dies.
Round 3: The doppleganger uses "Double Trouble" to create a new clone.

Question: Will the new clone also be able to use "Swarm!"? Was it only the first clone that used up the encounter power? Or does its use count towards all future clones for that encounter? Or would the clones simply keep regaining "Swarm!" because the original (doppleganger) still hasn't used it yet?

But then would the reverse also be true? As the clone is a duplicate of the doppleganger, if the doppleganger used "Swarm!" prior to creating a clone would all those clones also have "Swarm!" expired/used?


The clone does not disperse/die until after your next turn is over. So, in essence, the turn after you create a clone, if you create another, you'll have two clones until the end of your turn at which point your first clone will go away and your new clone can act.

In any case, I would agree with Oraibi and would house rule thusly: Your first clone used "Swarm!" Therefore neither you nor any subsequent clone would be able to use the power.

Now, the reading of this could all be wrong and the madcap guys at wizards may have insisted that if you create a clone, it can use all the powers your original character can use as long as it's not omega tech-, doppleganger-, or alpha mutation-based and hasn't been spent (IE: Your character hasn't used "Swarm!"). Then, the following turn, your character, who hasn't used those powers, can create another clone with those powers all in tact. The moment your main character uses an encounter power, it is no longer available for a clone to use.

That becomes CRAZY powerful, but I wouldn't put it past wizards to have intended said loop since GW seems to be an unbalanced game on purpose.
The clone does not disperse/die until after your next turn is over. So, in essence, the turn after you create a clone, if you create another, you'll have two clones until the end of your turn at which point your first clone will go away and your new clone can act.



Yes, from what I read the clone has an initiative just below the doppleganger's, so technically it could act right after the doppleganger's turn ends, and thus use "Swarm!" in the very first round. However I didn't want to muddy the waters by including multiple actions per round in my example. Also, it's true the doppleganger could create a second clone before the first expired, even though all this would mean is the doppleganger was using his standard actions for those 2 rounds just to create clones. I could see the potential here of creating "clone soldiers" to fight for you, while you hang back out of harm's way.

In any case, I would agree with Oraibi and would house rule thusly: Your first clone used "Swarm!" Therefore neither you nor any subsequent clone would be able to use the power.



Well I can certain see "Swarm!" being abused, or other Encounter origin powers even more. In fact I know first hand it can be abused as I played said character one night when the player in question had to leave early. I didn't read the powers properly and missed out on the fact that "Swarm!" was an Encounter power. I believe this occurred because we all expected the origin powers to be "At Will" since Alpha Mutations, for the most part, were the Encounter powers.

Now, the reading of this could all be wrong and the madcap guys at wizards may have insisted that if you create a clone, it can use all the powers your original character can use as long as it's not omega tech-, doppleganger-, or alpha mutation-based and hasn't been spent (IE: Your character hasn't used "Swarm!"). Then, the following turn, your character, who hasn't used those powers, can create another clone with those powers all in tact. The moment your main character uses an encounter power, it is no longer available for a clone to use.

That becomes CRAZY powerful, but I wouldn't put it past wizards to have intended said loop since GW seems to be an unbalanced game on purpose.



That's certainly a possibility. This wouldn't be the first origin power that could be abused. I mean there's Magnetic and Temporal to consider as well. For me I'll probably present the facts to my players and ask them what they prefer. As we rotate duties as GM sooner or later we'll all have to deal with it, or benefit from it (as a player). If they're fine with it being over-powered, then we'll play it that way, otherwise we'll restrict it. Thanks for the advice guys.
To me it seems it boils down to whether the duplicate is you or a separate person.  

The double trouble power states:

Effect: you create a duplicate of your self in a unoccupied square within 5 of you. The duplicate acts in the initiative order directly after you and can take all actions you can take, except it can't use Doppelganger powers, Alpha mutations, or Omega Techs. Its statistics are the same as yours, except that it has only 1 hp. Your duplicate disappears when it drops to 0 hp or at the end of your next turn. 


but it could easily be written like this:

 Effect: you create your friend Dave in a unoccupied square within 5 of you. Dave acts in the initiative order directly after you and can take all actions you can take, except Dave can't use Doppelganger powers, Alpha mutations, or Omega Techs. Dave's statistics are the same as yours, except that Dave has only 1 hp. Your friend Dave disappears when he drops to 0 hp or at the end of your next turn.


Your duplicate A.K.A Dave is its own person. 

With that being said it is pretty clear that when Dave is created it has the same actions available to him as you. If your encounter power is used by you and thus not available to be used by you when Dave is created he does not have that encounter. When Dave uses an encounter power, meaning you had not used that power when he was created, you will continue to have that encounter power even after Dave has used his encounter power since it was Dave who used his power not your power.

So as long has your two possible three non-doppelganger encounter powers are not used by you before you create Dave, Dave can use them.

Also that means that Dave would not benefit from critical bonus due to Dave is not you.

If you mostly live through Dave and take a standard action each turn to create Dave, and who wouldn't its Dave, Dave will have the benefit of always having its encounter powers (2-3) available to use but will not have critical powers, alpha mutations, or omega techs to use.

Fair trade?


On second thought Dave would have the critical benefits since it is an action you can do so Dave would be able to use them, except he would not be able to use the double-trouble power as a free action due to it is a doppelganger power.

Yes, the critical is a trait, not a power. If the doppleganger's critical was included in the exemption list, it would probably be everyone's first choice to take the other origin's critical first.

In any case, the critical is not important since it would grant the use of a doppleganger power as a free action in addition to 1d10 extra damage. So the clone would get to use the 1d10, but not the special.
This is really a strange character to play and DM (I'm doing both).

First of all, I never saw a restriction on a "Free" action saying it can't take place at some times (like between an attack and damage, for instance).  Is this actually specified in the GW guide or in erratta somewhere?  I thought free just said "Any Time".  (I'm not disagreeing, just wanted to be able to point it out to players)

The "Two places at once" seems to be written in such a way that the "Target" clone/square is just a dummy--it doesn't say it can attack or move, it simply says you "Occupy" that square and may choose it. So is this power essentially supposed to be a teleport 5 as a minor?  That would put it in line with other powers like the speedsters "Shift up to your speed" as a minor.

As for the clone getting to use an encounter power more than once a combat, there is no way that's how the rules are intended or even a good idea.  Perhpas they thought they didn't have to specify that an encounter power is only allowed to be used once per encounter because that's already pretty clear.

Logically, perhaps, your clone COULD keep using it, but there is no way any DM would allow that and no way that's how it was intended.  They will probably clarify later by adding that clones can't use encounter powers either.
I've been DMing and playing the dopple for a while--it's really exploitable and poorly defined.  It can already dominate the battlefield so you have to be willing to be a little restrictive.

I agree the free should allow you to vanish between beign hit and taking damage (the same way that you can yell "DUCK" just before someone is going to be hit--as a free action), but it's obviously meant to just be another minor teleport power and should probably be read that way.  I do think that both squares should get oppertunity attacks because you are in both, but we've been playing that you can't "Break" another's action even though an immediate interrupt can)

The only way to make the clone valid is that he IS you. If he uses an encounter power, it's gone.  If he shoots a weapon twice, ammo is gone.

The part that confuses me is conditions.  I've been saying that if I'm blind, he's not and if I'm at +2 to attacks for any reason, he's not.  This is just my extension of the "No omega tech, no alpha powers" rule.  I see him as a "Reset" version of my character.

Finally, I don't think salvaged Omega tech is Omega tech any more.  The way the cards generally read is that when salvaged "It becomes a ... neck slot item..." I'm not convinced that these items should be considered Omega tech any more, they are just items or weapons that have been "Salvaged From" broken omega tech.  

There are obviously other interpretations of this--but does anyone have any text aside from the obvious that we're quoting here to clarify this?

As for the clone getting to use an encounter power more than once a combat, there is no way that's how the rules are intended or even a good idea.  Perhpas they thought they didn't have to specify that an encounter power is only allowed to be used once per encounter because that's already pretty clear.

Logically, perhaps, your clone COULD keep using it, but there is no way any DM would allow that and no way that's how it was intended.  They will probably clarify later by adding that clones can't use encounter powers either.



How is the clone getting to use an encounter power more than once per encounter not a good idea? Yes, it's broken, but unless the character just dominates the game and makes it less fun for the other players, it's an awesome idea.

And actually, my DM is allowing my clone to keep using the encounter powers. Because it's the rules as written. And clones not using encounter powers? At all? That's pretty ridiculous and kind of a waste of an awesome power.


obviously



You keep saying this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
That character already does dominate--by far.

I play it as conservatively as imaginable and it's already the strongest player by far.  (PS.  Try adding custom alpha decks to a doppleganger--the drawing 2 every time makes it just rediculous.)

If your DM allows that, try running a dopple-engineered human with a recovered force axe as a weapon.  9d8 every single time you swing will end those pesky battles pretty quickly.
 
That character already does dominate--by far.

I play it as conservatively as imaginable and it's already the strongest player by far.  (PS.  Try adding custom alpha decks to a doppleganger--the drawing 2 every time makes it just rediculous.)

If your DM allows that, try running a dopple-engineered human with a recovered force axe as a weapon.  9d8 every single time you swing will end those pesky battles pretty quickly.
 



As a Gamma World DM, I really don't care.

Can it be broken? Sure. But no one I know who plays Gamma World takes it that seriously, so it's never been a problem.

And a Doppelganger Demon is just as broken, and it's using an at-will to be broken.


Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
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