Drain Knowledge & Illusions & Memnii …?

   Thanks in advance for taking the time to check this out, and hopefully sharing your personal insights, experiences, or appraisals on the matter. The legality of it all, being a large chunk of my curiosity.

Illusions

We know that “you create the form and complexity” of Illusions, and they last for a number of minutes equal to the Force user’s level that created it….
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

   So, I was examining a character concept and potential skill challenge that would really benefit from what the community thinks. Like the in movie ‘Inception’, we have a character still in its creation process that is turning out to be something of an issue.  

Build notes

Jung CL4
Cammassi [Memnii (Memory sharing) Persuasive, Pacifism) Unleashed CG
Starting in the Noble Class with Force Sensitivity as his Bonus feat
Level 1: Noble / Talent= Drain Knowledge (TotG)
Level 2: Noble / Feat= Skill Focus Use the Force
Level 3: Noble / Talent= Illusions / + Force Regimen Mastery (the pertinent regimen is Awaken Force Sensitivity)
Level 4: Noble / Feat= Skill Focus Perception 

   Background: In the core worlds, Jung was a notable grief councilor who specialized in hypnotherapies offering psychological reports for Corsec. During the preparation for a mainstream trial, he was bribed to alter the key witness’s perceptions of the event, thus proving to be incredible and exonerate the defendant.
    After the investigation extended its list of coconspirators to include the crooked Hypno-therapist himself, he faked his death and fled to Hutt space. Now Jung is doing the same illicit dealing that got him into trouble in the Core, for top dollar. Working with an ambitious young crime syndicate, Jung turns his visions into the realities of others.



   Jung may be introduced to the mark as an Advisor, Seer, or other sort of Consultant. If Jung can be considered an ally, than he spends an hour to perform the ‘Awaken Force Sensitivity’ Force regimen on the mark.
   Benefit of Awaken Force Sensitivity [Mark]: The Mark can now search her feelings via the Use the Force Skill, enter healing trances and experience a higher level of consciousness. With the Mark being considered Force Sensitive, Jung can also share Memories with that individual (see Camassi species traits (FUCG, not that the mark should know this).
The goal of this character in a nut shell

    Jung interviews a person who has received the Benefit of ‘Awaken Force Sensitivity’. As the person is telling Jung about an incident –bam- he puts him into a Force Trance. Then he uses Drain Knowledge to find and actually acquire the memory (instead of just hearing about it). Now he needs to do some homework to find a way to proceed. (For example; if he wants to add people to the memory, he will need holos of the creatures he wishes to add/implicate into that moment.). Once he has the data, he walks into the other room (something large and spacious, like a hanger, would be ideal).

   Using the Illusion Talent, Jung uses the fresh memory to create (distorts/warps/rearranges may be more on the money) an Illusion with the desired changes (which the Mark does not watch him create). If the Illusions are powerful enough (beating Jung’s Will Defense), then he can can go back into the other room (but I would rule that the Illusion must beat the Illusionists Will Def to even be considered for such a stunt).
 
   Sharing the Illusion he just created with the mark, perhaps even multiple times, until the Illusion becomes more powerful than the Mark’s original memory.

Is this at all possible?  What do you think, is it assuming too much?
It is a cool dea, but I don't think it really works legally.  Correct me if I have this wrong, but...

1. You (Jung) convince a mark to sare the Awaken Force Sensitivity Regimen with you
2. You put the mark in a Force trance
3. Use Drain Knowledge to aquire the mark's memory of an event he witnessed
4. Study the memory and plan your alterations
5. Using Illusion, you make an illusion for only your own observation
6. Return and implant the memory of the illusion into the target's mind

...right?  Assuming that I pretty much grasp your concept...

1. The target will need to be willing, so I'm assuming he'll be an ally of some sort.  Not a legal problem, but are you sure the other PCs will be ok with you screwing will an ally like this?
2. How?  It's been a whie since I've played SAGA, but I don't remember being able to just put a target in a Force trance whenever, I think the target has to be a "willing ally", so if you surprise him, he probably won't be willing. 
3. Drawing out an entire scene from the mark's memory might be a bit much.  "...a specific piece of knowledge or information" seems like it wouldn't include something like "what you did in the ally last night".
4. I like that you aknowledge that you'd need to plan this type of thing before just sticking a memory back into the target.
5. What is the point of this phase, you aren't trying to convince yourself that the illusion is real, right?  It seems to me that just knowing what the illusion will include - which you'd know before starting the illusion - would be plenty for what you want.
6. Memory sharing requires a willing target, and after putting the target into a trance and draining his memory, I'm not sure he'll be all that willing anymore.  Even if he is though, he should fairly quickly realize that the memores do not match, and I'm pretty sure he'll trust his own over the one you're implanting.  Maybe, after a lot of other techniques  it could work, but it would take a lot of time.

The first problem, then, would be that the target has to be willing along too many phases of your plan.  Excessive use of Mind Trick could solve that pretty handily, so that isn't the biggest problem.  The others though seem insurmountable, to me.  I can't think of a legal way around them.

The easy solution, and the one I recomend, is just to make your own Force Talent that does, essentially, what you want.  Just make it require Drain Knowledge, and allow you to modify a memory in some way.  I'd say have the DC be the target's Will Defense +10, maybe +20.  However, every time you try to implant the same memory, you get a bonus to your roll.  If you make it take a reasonable amount of time, that should make it fairly balanced and useful.  Or just have the DC be the target's Will Defense +10, at all times.  Tough targets will require that you take 20. 
"And the TL;DR award goes to Raul Torin!" - CorranHornIsAwesome Official SAGA Edition Errata Dawn of Defiance Other Articles Thanks to GreySword for compiling these

   Thanks for the Feed back Raul, It’s been awhile and its good to see you still prowl the saga space lanes. Your First point about the target of Awaken Force Sensitivity needing to be an ally is spot on. Think of Jung as more of a double agent when dealing with the Mark. While I don’t see a real use for it to use vs. another player, I do plan to use it to navigate the social infrastructure of Narshada.


    As an advisor/consultant to crime lords and pitbosses, Jung will strive to make himself appear to be an ally (even if it is a one sided relationship). As for putting another into a Force Trance (CWCG); your right, that too hinges on being considered an ally.


    (3) The length of memory to be exploited will have to be short and concise, as he only has a few minutes worth of illusion.



----------------------------------------------------
Example:

    Sam was at his apartment sleeping when police claim he perpetrated a crime. When he is called in for questioning, Jung acts as the ‘good cop’ or medical assistant during a very punishing interrogation. Jung makes Sam believe he can be trusted (like the movie Unthinkable). During this time he extracts information.


    While he is being held: Jung creates a scenario. Jung (actually) has Sam’s sister Kara kidnapped and delivers a ransom note to Sam’s apartment for him to find . Not knowing what to do, he takes it to the police or militant ally. Jung soon meets up with Sam and implants a (false) memory of  the Rodian Sploondor killing his sister. Jung claims it was a recessive memory and releases Sam. Sam kills the rodian Sploondor later that week. Sam is later apprehended for two murders, only one of which he actually committed. Jung releases Kara unharmed, but has just created a patsy for his boss’s (actual) kill and the investigation ends.


    Kara finds out (a version of the story) and is then told (falsely) what she can do to clear her brother Sam’s name. Now Kara becomes the next pawn operating on a series of false pretense created by Jung (and his boss). 
  ----------------------------------------------------


    In the above example, the memory being tossed around will not need to be any longer than a couple o minutes ~ in dream form- speeding from one incident to the next may actually make more it memorable (a recollected sense of urgency) if he can pack it with enough information / detail.


(5) As for the Illusion needing to exceed the illusionist’s Will defense… otherwise the illusionist passes along an illusion, not a memory that ranks among the rungs of truth. Its abstract, and a better explanative escapes me… I’ll come back to that one.


(6) Later when he reaches Adept level (mind Probe JATM), the target is unaware that you tried even if you fail the DC. Drain Knowledge is unclear, but that is a good point. This concept may require a level 8+ character (one with all the fancy illusion stuff).


“The easy solution, and the one I recommend, is just to make your own Force Talent that does, essentially, what you want.  Just make it require Drain Knowledge, and allow you to modify a memory in some way.  I'd say have the DC be the target's Will Defense +10, maybe +20.  However, every time you try to implant the same memory, you get a bonus to your roll.  If you make it take a reasonable amount of time, that should make it fairly balanced and useful.  Or just have the DC be the target's Will Defense +10, at all times.  Tough targets will require that you take 20. “


This is a really good idea. Unfortunately it means I will have to GM this guy instead of playing him… Im gunna keep at it. Saga Edition is such a fun system, there has got to be a munchkinism I am missing to make it work. And if not… oh well


 


As always Raul, your insights are top shelf. Thank you.

Thanks for the Feed back Raul, It’s been awhile and its good to see you still prowl the saga space lanes.

It is good to be back.  I had to take a break for a while, I was getting too irritated with SAGA and needed to play some of my other, better, RPGs. 

(3) The length of memory to be exploited will have to be short and concise, as he only has a few minutes worth of illusion.

As I said, I really hate poking holes in your idea; it's a good idea.  As a GM though, I see a wide gulf between Drain Knowledge's "...a specific piece of knowledge or information." and something like "replay the ten minutes surrounding that event."  You're learning a lot of specific details doing that: who was around, where it happened, what the getaway vehicle was, and so on.  Were I the game master, I'd disallow you to drag out an entire scene as a Standard Action.  Instead I'd say that you can spend some, much longer, period Draining the target to drag out a whole scene like your proposing.  I'd say you need at least ten minutes.  I'd have to think through the specifics more; maybe ten minutes per minute you're downloading?  No, too complex, not abstract enough.  You should probably just put it to your GM and see, he might go as high as an hour.  More than that would probably be too high.

Sam was at his apartment sleeping when police claim he perpetrated a crime. When he is called in for questioning, Jung acts as the ‘good cop’ or medical assistant during a very punishing interrogation. Jung makes Sam believe he can be trusted (like the movie Unthinkable). During this time he extracts information.

    While he is being held: Jung creates a scenario. Jung (actually) has Sam’s sister Kara kidnapped and delivers a ransom note to Sam’s apartment for him to find . Not knowing what to do, he takes it to the police or militant ally. Jung soon meets up with Sam and implants a (false) memory of  the Rodian Sploondor killing his sister. Jung claims it was a recessive memory and releases Sam. Sam kills the rodian Sploondor later that week. Sam is later apprehended for two murders, only one of which he actually committed. Jung releases Kara unharmed, but has just created a patsy for his boss’s (actual) kill and the investigation ends.


    Kara finds out (a version of the story) and is then told (falsely) what she can do to clear her brother Sam’s name. Now Kara becomes the next pawn operating on a series of false pretense created by Jung (and his boss). 
That's a really cool example, but I don't think that you'll be able to pull off anything like this by the rules.  It just isn't going to work, there's too many elements that aren't directly combat related for it to happen in SAGA. ;)

Most of that could pretty much be summed up in one Mind Trick though.  Just Mind Trick Sam into believing that the Rodian killed his sister, it doesn't need to get more complicated than that.  Although I guess I'm assuming that the GM allows Mind Trick to work how it works in the movies, not necessarily as it does by RAW.  Deception might also work.  Actually...

One way to pull this off might be to download the memory, and tweak it according to your wishes.*  Then go back to the mark, who you'll want to keep as an ally (don't make him hate you).  Say that you've analyzed his memory and aren't sure about some parts.  Then use you memory sharing to give him your altered memory.  This wouldn't use Illusions but would instead use Deception.  Deception, used to relay false information, works whenever you're communicating, and sharing memories is a form of communicating for sure.  Use Deception to give the Mark your altered version of events (i.e. "This is the memory I got from you.").  Put in some mumbo-jumbo about how he seems to be remembering the event wrong**, and how you've uncovered the "truth".  You might need to use Deception a second time here, once to relay the false memory and once to convince the Mark it's real.  The GM will probably stick some tough modifiers on this, -5 or -10 would be my call, depending on the level of alteration, but if you were to reduce the target down the Condition Track a ways, you should be able to make the check.  Also, there is a Force Deception Talent somewhere.  Let's put this in an order-of-events list:

1) Awaken Force Sensitivity in the mark
2) Drain knowledge of the scene (big problem here: keeping him freindly after this)
3) Craft your false memory
4) Return to the Mark and share your false memory (Deception used)
4.5) Convince the target the memory is real and accurate (Deception probably, maybe Persuasion)
5) Enjoy the carnage

*I still don't see the need for Illusions, but you might take the Talent and then use it in a descriptive way to aid you in crafting the false memory.  Circumstance bonus maybe.
**Maybe return both memories, playing in his head at once, but overlapping so he can perceive and understand both.
  That should lend an aid of credibility.


(5) As for the Illusion needing to exceed the illusionist’s Will defense… otherwise the illusionist passes along an illusion, not a memory that ranks among the rungs of truth. Its abstract, and a better explanative escapes me… I’ll come back to that one.

Yeah, I'm not getting it.  It still sounds like you're trying to make an Illusion so convincing you yourself can't tell it's a fake.  I don't think that really works 

(6) Later when he reaches Adept level (mind Probe JATM), the target is unaware that you tried even if you fail the DC. Drain Knowledge is unclear, but that is a good point. This concept may require a level 8+ character (one with all the fancy illusion stuff).

Mind Probe is a totally different power though, and works like Gather Information.  I still would have problem downloading a whole scene with it. 

This is a really good idea. Unfortunately it means I will have to GM this guy instead of playing him… Im gunna keep at it. Saga Edition is such a fun system, there has got to be a munchkinism I am missing to make it work. And if not… oh well

I think a reasonable GM would allow you to make a Talent that would work well for the campaign.  IMO, GMs should always be willing to consider the stuff their players make and do what they can to impliment it in a balanced way.
"And the TL;DR award goes to Raul Torin!" - CorranHornIsAwesome Official SAGA Edition Errata Dawn of Defiance Other Articles Thanks to GreySword for compiling these

I suppose my hang-up on having the Illusion beat your own will defense is just a wording thing…. The talent says compare the result to the will defense of all who view it. If you view it, and are not convinced… than, as an illusionist, its credibility is certainly lacking.


Stirring up another what-if: Because with Illusions…. All things should be possible, even if they are implausible


   So you are face to face with the Mark, creating your own introduction with super Illusions.
The mark is a wealthy human on holiday at the best Holiday Inn on cloud city. You have decided to stir up a scene when he climbs out of the pool.


   You are pool side (say 5 squares away) drinking something with an umbrella as his body guards fetch him a towel. You are sitting there masking your actual presence with the Masquerade talent (say as a fat sweaty human).
   You create an Illusion Bond with a new figure who appears behind the mark’s help. The Illusion is of a beautiful twilek female in a teeny-weenie bikini who politely walks up and asks if she knows him (the mark).


   After the mark responds (your turn), the beautiful twilek snarls and you use the Memory Walk [darkside] force power against the mark. The mark is now experiencing his most retched memory and not having a nice time. You have the twilek melt into a quarren with oily black skin and a shadow that dances on the ground like flames of black fire. The guards intervene and he is hurried away. -snip-


    Away from home he is freeking out, and issues a complaint that the hotel cant seem to assist him with. You have your contact at the hotel introduce you to the Mark (un masked).


    You are there to help, but the ghost like thing (now connected to his worst memory) reappears when you are getting ready to leave. You put on a little show and with waves of blue light, you fend off the ghosty Quarren and establish a line of trust with the mark.


   The mark sees you as an ally, and you are still playing both sides.


 


Anyway…I have to cut this post short, but wanted to illustrate a situation where Illusion are invaluable to this character concept.  Thanks again

Glad I could help, even though it wasn't much.

"And the TL;DR award goes to Raul Torin!" - CorranHornIsAwesome Official SAGA Edition Errata Dawn of Defiance Other Articles Thanks to GreySword for compiling these