01/07/2010 LD: "Time Traveling"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Latest Developments, which goes live Friday morning on magicthegathering.com.
Well, at least this article acknowledged that the Power Nine were... a concern.

Since the article discussed how the set was designed to make it playable - because it should be something one can use for playing, as well as a source of cards for playing Classic - it might be that putting the P9 in the set would affect play negatively, the way it did for Alpha, Beta, and Unlimited.

In any case, I think we know that making the Power Nine available, even in electronic form for MTGO, is perceived within Wizards as a Big Thing - and, in a way, it's a big thing for players too. As such, it is a... sensitive topic... and, as a result, the corporate level of Wizards prefers reticence to a frankness which might have the potential of worsening the natural negativity which surrounds this kind of subject.

I don't think it's justified or appopriate to rag on Tom LaPille, Erik Lauer, or even the corporate level of Wizards for this fact. This is just part of the way the world works.

There is still hope that the P9 will be released in MTGO, but if that happens, it will be in some sort of spectacular vehicle which reflects their large symbolic and play value - and their likely monetary value on the secondary market.

Coming up with weird ideas to make everyone happy since 2008!

 

I have now started a blog as an appropriate place to put my crazy ideas.

I don't have an effective way to state my enjoyment of the opening image.

*Slow clap*

Well. Done. 
Adam Styborski Writer for Serious Fun Follow me on Twitter: twitter.com/the_stybs
I completely forgot about Time Travel Guy. Wow.

Also: anybody who has seriously asked somebody at Wizards why they haven't done a digital run of the Power Nine yet needs a kick in the teeth. Why do you think?
Definitely better than Erik Lauer's article.  It's nice that you at least acknowledge the p9 issue, even if you don't give any substantive info - but I definitely still think leaving them out was an extremely poor decision.

I'm glad about getting the old art online... some players complain about reprints but I don't agree with them at all.  The original art is one of the best things about these sets.  I do wish you'd included one of the better Hymn to Tourachs though.
If I had access to a Windows-based machine, I'd actually check out MtGO.

The F2F interaction is a big part of the game for me but playing with these ancient cards would be pretty cool...

edit: Don't tell me that macs can dual boot. I'm aware but I'm also not going to pay for the newer OSX and a Windows disc just to play this.
Thanks for the article... I just wish it had more details!  Most of it reads like Masters Edition 101 for those who don't play mtgo.  I know you've got to promote it and all to get more people online, but some of us are very familiar with ME sets and play Classic all the time.  Write a few paragraphs for us! 

Thanks for acknowledging Power 9.  The answer is disappointing because it didn't provide any new information, but like you said, it wasn't your call. 
How nice that they're so concerned for the wellbeing and continuance of Legacy that they're willing to freely reprint all of the dual lands for people...online.  Seriously, that's heartwarming.  Paper players, apparently, can still go suck a lemon. 
I had mtgo downloaded and  ready to buy hundreds of packs to get a redeemed set of masters...when i found out they cant be redeemed
Since I cant use a gift card to buy things in the store, I wont be doing anything with MTGO.  I understand they want to protect my privacy, but come on.  I dont have a bank account.  I dont have a credit card.  Ive spent a lot of money using gift cards, and it costs me $4 to buy the darn thing.  This is the first Masters Edition I wanted to draft too.  
I had mtgo downloaded and  ready to buy hundreds of packs to get a redeemed set of masters...when i found out they cant be redeemed


That's a joke, right?  Please tell me that's a joke.
How nice that they're so concerned for the wellbeing and continuance of Legacy that they're willing to freely reprint all of the dual lands for people...online.  Seriously, that's heartwarming.  Paper players, apparently, can still go suck a lemon. 



Quoted for absolutely-not-even-motherfrakking-kidding-can-I-get-an-Amen! truth. 
Proud member of C.A.R.D. - Campaign Against Rare Duals "...but the time has come when lands just need to be better. Creatures have gotten stronger, spells have always been insane, and lands just sat in this awkward place of necessity." Jacob Van Lunen on the refuge duals, 16 Sep 2009. "While it made thematic sense to separate enemy and allied color fixing in the past, we have come around to the definite conclusion that it is just plain incorrect from a game-play perspective. This is one of these situations where game play should just trump flavor." - Sam Stoddard on ending the separation of allied/enemy dual lands. 05 July 2013
Thanks for the article and addressing some of the questions precipitated by the previous article.
Paper players, apparently, can still go suck a lemon. 

Can't be helped. Reprinting the dual lands in paper would violate the Reprint Policy.

And the reason this matters is because lots of stores have original duals in stock. The good stores - the ones that hold FNM and other events. Wizards can't afford to kick them in the teeth and ruin the collecting element of Magic by reprinting genuinely rare old cards.

The stupid part of the Reprint Policy, the part that prevents them from reprinting the rare cards from, say, Fallen Empires... that part ought to be done away with. But it isn't a big issue. People were upset at the policy change after Phyrexian Negator foil reprints hit the stores... but like 90% of the comments were disappointment about not having a chance of dual land reprints, with reprints of ordinary Reserved List cards like Phyrexian Negator, Mox Diamond, or Implements of Sacrifice being basically a non-issue.

The Scars dual lands, although not fetchable, do come close enough to the original duals in the important respect of not being tapped early in the game as to open up Legacy a bit to players willing to cope with a slight disadvantage. I really hope the enemy duals in this series become available later in the block.

What people want is basically... a format, which, like Legacy, has a diverse meta, and which, like Legacy, is eternal, so one doesn't have to worry about cards rotating out. I don't think that strictly depends on having particular cards (i.e. the original duals) reprinted.

That doesn't mean a Masques-forward format would be automatically guaranteed to be such a format. In practice, it might be expected that it would be similar to Extended, back when it ran from Invasion block to Lorwyn/Shadowmoor block. However, the availability of [c]Dark Ritual[c] from Mercadian Masques, as well as some of the more recent cards, might change things a little.

This is why I've suggested that Wizards produce a set, which I've called the Archive Set, which has the following characteristics:



  • It's a randomized product, but cards do not become legal in Extended or Standard merely because they've been published in the latest Archive Set.

  • To prevent confusion concerning the first point, the Archive Set is sold as tournament packs only, not as booster packs. (But perhaps not with as many basic lands as the old tournament packs, and with three fewer commons to match the composition of current booster packs.)

  • The Archive Set will serve two functions: it will include cards not on the Reserved List from prior to the default start of the Heritage (Masques-forward) format, their publication in the Archive Set making them Heritage-legal; it will include cards already Heritage-legal of importance to improve their availability and facilitate broad participation in the format (i.e. Umezawa's Jitte, Tarmogoyf).



The idea is, of course, that cards like Jitte and Goyf will be rare enough so as not to depress their secondary prices, even though these reprints might indeed stop those prices from continuing to grow. (On the other hand, the fact that they're playable in Heritage, and not just in original-duals-constrained Legacy, should help their values.)

It may be a "crazy idea". But I see that as the way to "make everyone happy".

Suddenly, there's a format for playing your cards in when they rotate out of Extended. (Psychologically, what's important is that it exists as a defined format. Because it's an eternal format, and thus doesn't drive the sale of new cards as strongly, I'm not asking for a lot in the way of prize support for it from Wizards. Thus, while individual stores should be free to choose to host Heritage events, in the Pro Tour it would be appropriate for Heritage to play a smaller part than either Legacy or Extended, even if Heritage is more widely played.)

So cards like Tarmogoyf have a format you can play them in - and a format that supports their secondary market value. So people don't feel sad and frustrated that the only collectors that matter to Wizards are the ones that got in on the ground floor in the heady days of the Power Nine and Original Duals. (It's still true that current cards will not appreciate the way those cards did. That's not something that Wizards can fix. This just makes it clearer that this natural phenomenon is not Wizards' fault.)

I don't know, though, if one vital role of the Archive Set will really work out. Can selected cards, not on the Reserved List, by being reprinted in the Archive Set and made legal in the Heritage format, shape that format so that it plays like Legacy with a very diverse meta? Otherwise, Hovercraft is right, and the Masques-forward format won't be a substitute for real Legacy.

Coming up with weird ideas to make everyone happy since 2008!

 

I have now started a blog as an appropriate place to put my crazy ideas.

At first I thought it was weird that there were confused paper players posting about this.  Then I realized what this really means:  there are paper players out there who haven't wanted to play online for any other set, but ME4 really makes them want to.  That's got to be a good thing, even if their understanding or reasoning is a little hazy.

Thanks, Tom, for filling in some of the remaining questions pointed out in Monday's article from Erik.  It's nice to see you're paying attention to the fora.
How nice that they're so concerned for the wellbeing and continuance of Legacy that they're willing to freely reprint all of the dual lands for people...online.  Seriously, that's heartwarming.  Paper players, apparently, can still go suck a lemon. 



They tried to do away with the reserve list in the early part of 2010, but collectors or store owners or lawyers or somebody stopped them (they didn't give us details as to why).  So they tried.  This is the position they've been put in, so this is what they are doing.  Sounds like it's time for you to get an mtgo account. 

I had mtgo downloaded and  ready to buy hundreds of packs to get a redeemed set of masters...when i found out they cant be redeemed


That's a joke, right?  Please tell me that's a joke.

No, I had never played mtgo, but with the incusion of Time Vault thought I may want to play. After downloading I saw that sets could be redeemed...the idea that wizards would print time vaults had me suspicoius. After reading in forums I found that the set couldnt be redeemed.
On concern regarding the power 9:

THAT IS NOT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. It shouldn't matter!

Your job as the 'gatekeepers' of MTG is card balance, and card availability. Something the game has actually failed at a lot. Your job as the gatekeepers so to speak and keymasters is to release stuff that people want. If someone doesnt want something they dont have to buy it. If someone does, more 'power' to them. However, the release of that product should further the enjoyment of the game and not cause headaches/arguments and bad metas where one dude is always winning or few available strategies.. what was it.. Psychatog / Madness / Thresh? Or something. I remember the days when 2 or 3 decks were winning and there was no alternative. So I left. I loved the artwork and the potential for the game to be fun was there but it was tossed aside for.. reasons unknown to me still today. At the time friends of mine had just gotten tired of it I dunno why I think they're stupid. I wanted to play more but I was tired of playing with the same cards over and over with too few opponents. The closest store near me was just too far away. So I gave up on it. I considered getting newer cards.. but as I came back and forth to the game the art was not improving (ugh). Since there wasn't much product when I started playing.. Fallen Empires / 4th Edition / Ice Age / Chronicles / Homelands.. and a lot of it was over or under curve.. I dont blame people for bailing. 5th Edition, a set full of weak, was not impressive. 4th Edition was very balanced and I dont know what went on from there.. some weak stuff in there (Erosion, laces, cards like Feedback) and some overpowered stuff (Channel, Black Vise / The Rack, Ivory Tower.. some of it balanced as time went on) but overall with friends it was a lot of fun. Chronicles offered some important missing game pieces.

The concept of having missing game pieces seems to be something powers that be are oblivious to. Normally when I buy something, and there are missing parts, the company will kindly return them to me.

There is a saying,
Counter-productive pride?

Witholding cards that people like, just because they offend some people's smallish bleak existence, is not cool.

On the collectibility of collectibles:

Serendib Efreet

This was not done on purpose. This was accidental.

Hurricane

This was not done on purpose.. a limited amount of blue hurricanes got out they're worth a lot of money now. Anyway.. so maybe some of it could have been on purpose who is to say for sure but point is the collectibility of something happens on its own.

I dont want to be treated like a whiny baby being given lolipops when I cry enough.

WOTC seems to think that they should be the ones 'ensuring' the collectibility of the game.

GROW UP PEOPLE.

I can collect teapots if I want to. There is no archdemon teacup conglomerate, ensuring the collectibility of teapots the world over.

GROW THE **** UP.

Step 1:
Release cards that are enjoyable or if they're broken in a non competitive way or at least renew supply for ones that have run short. THATS HOW PPL MAKE MONEY. WHAT-THE-HELL. We ran out of print of something.. people are paying a lot of money for it! Hmmmm LETS NOT RELEASE IT. Ya. because, THAT MAKES SENSE.

Step 2:
GROW UP

Step 3:
Profit.

Step 4:
Everyone is happy. Except for some insane whiny ppl in the corner upset over.. nothing really.

*

Interesting point to be made on Gold Bordered Cards:

They're fun to play with but were not tournament legal. So.. it was upsetting buying that and then having no one to play with since a lot of people rely on card stores as a venue to host gaming days to play with other people and meet up etc.. and if your cards are dissallowed that isnt fun.

It had nothing to do with whether or not it was uncool.
Can you please confine your incoherent rants to paper articles?

Well, at least this article acknowledged that the Power Nine were... a concern.

Since the article discussed how the set was designed to make it playable - because it should be something one can use for playing, as well as a source of cards for playing Classic - it might be that putting the P9 in the set would affect play negatively, the way it did for Alpha, Beta, and Unlimited.




They'd all be rare and only occasionally show up in draft, so that wasn't the reason.


If I had access to a Windows-based machine, I'd actually check out MtGO.

The F2F interaction is a big part of the game for me but playing with these ancient cards would be pretty cool...


edit: Don't tell me that macs can dual boot. I'm aware but I'm also not going to pay for the newer OSX and a Windows disc just to play this.



They can barely handle this program on a single platform. Apple's not going to happen even in V4.

They can barely handle this program on a single platform. Apple's not going to happen even in V4.

As I recall, the technical issue was that originally it was planned to move MTGO to a web-based platform based on Microsoft Silverlight, which does run on browsers for the Macintosh as well, but Silverlight was missing a needed feature - so they moved to a related Microsoft platform (EDIT: Windows Presentation Foundation) which doesn't support the Mac.

Coming up with weird ideas to make everyone happy since 2008!

 

I have now started a blog as an appropriate place to put my crazy ideas.

The existence of the dual lands and ridiculously overpowered old cards in Vintage and Legacy is a bug, not a feature. I don't know why people think that MTGO is "missing" something.
That's a very uninformed statement. Vintage and Legacy are what they are because of power, not in spite of it. There was no legacy online until those "overpowered" staples also became available - the dual lands being perhaps the single most important piece. Likewise, Vintage will not exist until the Power 9 is present.

They can barely handle this program on a single platform. Apple's not going to happen even in V4.

As I recall, the technical issue was that originally it was planned to move MTGO to a web-based platform based on Microsoft Silverlight, which does run on browsers for the Macintosh as well, but Silverlight was missing a needed feature - so they moved to a related Microsoft platform which doesn't support the Mac.




They did try, all credit for that. But the reality is, you don't buy a Mac for gaming, although they are certainly capable machines for that purpose. A very small percentage of games are released for that platform annually. Blizzard is one of the few major companies that keep Mac users in mind during development so that no one has to wait for independent ports. So, given that WOTC is not exactly Blizzard, it's hard to be all that surprised if they can't do a multi-platform game.

But I do agree that the hype surrounding the web-based client set them up for a letdown.
The existence of the dual lands and ridiculously overpowered old cards in Vintage and Legacy is a bug, not a feature. I don't know why people think that MTGO is "missing" something.

The original dual lands in Legacy aren't a "bug", because they're not ridiculously overpowered.

Not having any land that's strictly better than a basic land is a matter of design philosophy and design space. The original duals don't turn Legacy into a coin flip game of who will get their dual land down first.

If the original duals were that bad, we wouldn't have had the Ravnica duals or the Magic: 2010 duals or the Scars of Mirrodin duals.

However, that being said, since current duals come close to the original duals, but they aren't "good enough" as long as they have the original duals to compete with... why wouldn't a Legacy-lite, similar to Legacy, but with the original duals banned, be a playable and entertaining format in its own right? (Note, however, that not having the original duals available in MTGO would prevent people from preparing in MTGO for paper Legacy tournaments, which many people on the Pro Tour circuit do. So this is an argument for a Masques-forward format in paper Magic, but not an argument against having the original duals in MTGO.)

That's a question I would like to know the answer to.

The original duals aren't a problem for Legacy - they don't unbalance the format, they don't ruin the play - but that isn't the same thing as being essential to the good characteristics of Legacy, such as its diverse meta.

When it comes to Vintage, at first glance, though, it seems you're undoubtedly right. Even putting the P9 on the restricted list, so that one can have only one copy of each in a deck, hasn't prevented Vintage from being a format dominated by the power of those cards, and one where games are over after a small number of turns.

But the fact that the P9 change the play experience doesn't mean they ruin the play experience. After all, if people (who can afford to play Vintage) want to play Legacy, they can play Legacy. So the P9 add thrills, chills and spills to Vintage - which is what Vintage players want. It is still a format that calls for a high degree of skill in deck construction, so it's still a valid game.

Coming up with weird ideas to make everyone happy since 2008!

 

I have now started a blog as an appropriate place to put my crazy ideas.

Denial denial denial...
Inform yourself(ves) PLEASE:

ALPHA / BETA / UNLIMITED combined = ~50-million cards
ARABIAN NIGHTS = ~5-million cards
ANTIQUITIES = ~15-million cards
LEGENDS = ~35-million cards
THE DARK = ~70-million cards (Maze Of Ith is a common valued at $20)

REVISED / FALLEN EMPIRES and onwards and onwards and onwards = ~500,000,000 cards! for each set! LOOK! www.crystalkeep.com

Quadibloc, PLEASE, LISTEN, for Fallen Empires and onwards there is no cost nor supply issue. Your point is moot. The reserved list only starts to really affect things when you consider the print run size of sets from 1994 and 1993. Those sets were on sale for no more than a 2-3 months. The sets directly after them were printed in sufficient quantity to be on the shelves for 2-3 YEARS. Big difference. Not subtle. Big.

PLEASE KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN FALLEN EMPIRES / REVISED AND EVERY SET AFTER THIS, THE PRINT RUN SIZES HAVE BEEN -FRANKLY- ENORMOUS. That is why you can still buy all of these sets for less than $10 each a booster pack even if the set was exceptionally good (Tempest, Urza's Saga, Alliances, etc). The Dark is $10~ a booster but for 8 cards so it is more like $20 a booster. The card quality is similar to Fallen Empires which is $2 a booster. Why? LACK of scarcity.

The Reserved List has 2 problems:

1) Tons of people want dual lands. They're only easily affordable and attainable from ONE set ($20/1 Revised booster). Packs of Unlimited/Beta/Alpha eclipse $200 per booster they're literally 10x as rare.

2) They're not allowed to be reprinted. So the value of the duals is exponentially higher than it needs to be or should be. They used to be closer to $30-$40 in value each before Legacy as a format was created now they've risen a good $20 each. Its hard to get some of them for less than $50-60.  Since they're not being reprinted the amount of people who can play Legacy with decks that are not mono-color is literally limited.

Packing 8 free counterspells in a deck. Why aren't Daze and Force of Will banned? Legacy doesnt have a fast combo problem. If there is ever a combo that can consistently go off early in first 1-3 turns (going first) or cards played early that are unanswerable later on those cards should simply be banned. Goblin Welder is one of my #1 picks to be added to the banned list along with Sensei's Divining Top and Standstill it is simply too much too fast. I really question why Force Spike, Spell Pierce, and other 1 mana counterspells are not fast enough for the format.

*

On the dual lands being imbalanced:

With fetch lands, divining top.. of course they are.
They're tutorable. For 1 life loss.

And the decks that run duals play:

Uncounterable answers - !NO - in sideboard.

Krosan Grip , Extirpate, Vindicate, Maelstrom Pulse

Without duals it is hard to play a few of those cards in the same deck/sideboard. The sideboard advantage of a deck running duals is enormous.

8 Blood Moon.dec is not tier 1.

No one sees a problem with this?
The silly Conspiracy Theory™ I'm assembling from these articles is that the bulk of Wizards's staff wanted to end the Reprint Policy, but got shot down by a lawyer or team thereof.  Thus, that group of malcontents are heavily leveraging MTGO to explicity point out how laughable the paper Reprint Policy really is.
The silly Conspiracy Theory™ I'm assembling from these articles is that the bulk of Wizards's staff wanted to end the Reprint Policy, but got shot down by a lawyer or team thereof.  Thus, that group of malcontents are heavily leveraging MTGO to explicity point out how laughable the paper Reprint Policy really is.



Its laughable especially as a subsidiary of a corporation like Hasbro who want to make money.

Printing extremely rare cards again in a fashion that people want and would buy them, namely, tournament legality, would be a boon in sales.

No question.

So why isnt it being done?

Book collectors, comic book collectors, spoon collectors, sports memorabilia people.. Everyone EXCEPT magic card players care about the edition of what theyre collecting is. They're hyper specific. It's too easy for me to say If youre a mtg collector you want original black border, period, nothing else matters.

Anyone who says otherwise is frankly a fool.

Point of fact.

You're just ignorant of the truth of reality.

magiccards.info

Serpent Generators sell for $3-5+
magiccards.info/lg/en/240.html
From Chronicles they're worth like 50-80cents
It's not even that demanded and sells for the same amount as like.. Swords To Plowshares. I mean, really.

Palladia-Mors
magiccards.info/lg/en/287.html
YOu can buy these from Chronicles for like 75cents or something
A legends print wont cost you 75cents

City Of Brass , Arabian Nights , $30+
magiccards.info/an/en/85.html

Does any more need to be said on the reserved list?

If it's killed off and rolled into a ditch no one will even notice it's passing.
Quadibloc, PLEASE, LISTEN, for Fallen Empires and onwards there is no cost nor supply issue.

I bought a few boosters of Fallen Empires and even Homelands, so I do know this.

You may be right that there are so many original duals floating around that reprints wouldn't make things worse from a collecting standpoint. Or that people with white-bordered copies don't deserve them to be expensive. Or something.

Since the Reprint Policy isn't going anywhere even if it's bad (maybe the obviously silly parts might, someday, if they need the design space, because those parts don't benefit anyone)... I don't see, though, that this is a discussion I need to get into.

Instead, since we've got to live with the original duals not being reprinted, however we may dislike it, what's the next best thing? What can we ask for from Wizards that they would be willing to give us? And how can we frame our request so that what we're asking for will do us some good - that the result would have a chance of providing us with a format worth playing because it has most of Legacy's good characteristics?

I prefer solving problems to just complaining about stuff that won't change.

Coming up with weird ideas to make everyone happy since 2008!

 

I have now started a blog as an appropriate place to put my crazy ideas.

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