Avenger|Runepriest / Hammer of Vengance

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I put up 2 builds.  Both item independant.

Basics Tactic:
Oath, attack with word of exchange (protection) to make the target easier to hit and enable rune of vengence (even if you miss).  The wait for an ally to hit, and smack it with overwhelming strike for a solid 2 attacks per turn.

Extras:
Painful oath adds to runepriest and avenger attacks (it's 1/turn, so it'll work on the reaction).
Supplement with avenger minor (not immediate) action attacks (fury's advance, soul forged hammering).
Runepriest powers will help allies hit your target (word of exchange, rune of the conquering sign).
You can heal adds more damage and primes your vengance rune (when you use a daily).
Warlord Friendly with a strong MBA.

Defiant Defender has massive defenses it uses at-will prone to keep enemies nearby.  This works best with a ranged heavy party where you can take point and allies can trigger your bonus from a distance.  If you have a melee ally, try to go right before him so you can hit, he can hit, then you can overwhelming strike prone, then he can shift away.

Also, when you are missed, you get +Wis for all your attacks.  Unload soulforge hammering, and fury's assault.

Defiant Defender

Race: Minotaur:  Minotaur and longtooth shifter both have +2 to Str and Wis.
Class: Hybrid, Avenger, Runepriest:  Basis of the build
Runepriest Option: Defiant Word: +Wis to damage when missed, no issue with hybrids, and works for all attacks that round
Background: Auspicious Birth:
Paragon Path: Hammer of Vengance: Provides us with a repeatable off action attack
Epic Destiny: Destined Scion: Hitting is good.

Starting Stats
Str 16 Con 11 Dex 13 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 8

Final Stats
Str 28 Con 13 Dex 15 Int 12 Wis 28 Cha 10

Defenses:
AC: 47  Fort: 50 Ref: 44 Will: 51

Feats:
1: Hybrid Talent (Runepriest Armor Profiency): Very solid Scale + Shield
2: Flail Expertise:  Overwhelming strike prones.
4: Power of Skill: Our OA get's a double roll and prones.
6: 
8: Heavy Shield
10: Battle Awareness: Prereq, also Covers the times we won't have a Rune of Vengance
11: Painfull Oath: This has no hybrid issues, and will add to runepriest attacks as well
12: Superior Will
14: Superior Fortitude
16: Lightning Reflex (retrain to Superior Reflex at 21)
18: Ubiquitous Shield (retrain to Scale Specialization at 22)
20: Encouraging Shield
21: Slashing Storm: Highly likely to hit at least once, so make a nice zone for yourself.
22: Epic Fortitude
24: Epic Reflex
26: Epic Will
28: Mythic Senses
30: Stout Shield

At-Will:
Overwhelming Strike: Oath benifit on MBA, and provides some much needed positioing and control.
Word of Exchange: Used in protection, it helps our allies hit, which let's us hit again.

Equipment: Alhulak +6, Heavy Shield, Scale +6, Amulet of Protection +6

Defiant DPR 69.28

Assuming 2 attacks per turn
Assuming Oath of emnitiy on Overwhelming Strike
Assuming Painfull Oath on both attacks
Assuming Word of Defiant, or slashing storms (they stack, but are both situational)
Assuming +2 to hit from CA, or word of exchange (they stack, but are both situational)

Word of Exchange:
39 vs AC,  (35% miss, 60% hit, 5% crit)
1d8 + 9(str) + 6 (enh) + Wis (9) + Wis (9) = 37.5
Crit: 8 + 9 + 6 + 9 + 9 + 6d6 (21) = 62

Overwhelming Strike:
39 vs AC roll twice (12.25% miss, 87.75% hit, 9.75% crit)
Overwhelming Strike: 2d8 + 9 (wis) + 6 (enh) + wis (9) + wis (9) = 42
Crit: 16 + 9 + 6 + 9 + 9 + 6d6(21) = 70

37.5 * .60 + 62 * .05 + 42 * .87.75 + 70 * .0975 = 69.28



Serene Killer focuses more on damage.  Using Serene instead of defiant allows you to take something else for your hybrid talent.  In this case, censure of unity.  Better in melee heavy parties, this build is designed for everyone to group up on 1 target and decimate it.
Serene Killer

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Killer Bee, level 30
Longtooth Shifter, Runepriest/Avenger, Hammer of Vengeance (PH3), Destined Scion
Runic Artistry Option: Serene Blade
Hybrid Avenger Option: Hybrid Avenger Reflex
Hybrid Talent Option: Avenger's Censure (Hybrid)
Avenger's Censure Option: Censure of Unity
Epic Heroism Option: Strength
Epic Heroism Option: Wisdom
Associate: Trained Young Owlbear
Auspicious Birth (Auspicious Birth Benefit)
Theme: Fey Beast Tamer

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 28, CON 13, DEX 15, INT 10, WIS 28, CHA 12

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 11, DEX 13, INT 8, WIS 16, CHA 10


AC: 43 Fort: 43 Ref: 37 Will: 46
HP: 186 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 46

TRAINED SKILLS
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +17, Arcana +15, Athletics +26, Bluff +16, Diplomacy +16, Dungeoneering +24, Endurance +18, Heal +24, History +15, Insight +24, Intimidate +16, Nature +24, Perception +24, Religion +15, Stealth +17, Streetwise +16, Thievery +17

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Longtooth Shifter Racial Power: Longtooth Shifting
Runepriest Feature: Rune of Mending
Avenger Feature: Oath of Enmity
Avenger Attack 1: Overwhelming Strike
Runepriest Attack 1: Word of Exchange
Runepriest Utility 2: Rune of the Final Effort
Avenger Utility 2: Loyal Sanction
Runepriest Attack 3: Fury's Advance.  Symbol of Wrath Reversed also a quality option.
Avenger Attack 5: Bond of Foresight  Opportunity action don't interfear.
Runepriest Utility 10: Protective Scroll
Hammer of Vengeance (PH3) Attack 11: Avenging Hammer Possibly replace with reserve manuver
Hammer of Vengeance (PH3) Utility 12: Shield of Vengeance
Avenger Utility 16: Summons to Duty  Helps ensure we have an ally nearby.
Avenger Attack 17: Soulforge Hammering
Runepriest Attack 19: Rune of Warding Light
Hammer of Vengeance (PH3) Attack 20: Vengeance's End
Runepriest Utility 22: Rune of the Hero's Resolve
Runepriest Attack 23: Rune of Rising Fury  Word of healing assault is also a quality option.
Runepriest Attack 25: Rune of the Conquering Sign
Destined Scion Utility 26: Epic Recovery
Destined Scion Utility 30: Undeniable Victory

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Light Blade Expertise
Level 4: Unarmored Agility
Level 6: Improved Defenses
Level 8: Power of Skill
Level 10: Spiked Chain Training +3, light blade, dual, and with avenging resolve, it's a 1d12.
Level 11: Painful Oath
Level 12: Weapon Focus (Light blade)
Level 14: Avenging Resolution
Level 16: Divine Distraction Incentive to attack your target
Level 18: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 20: Two-Weapon Opening
Level 21: Hand of Divine Guidance
Level 22: Righteous Focus More incentive to attack your target
Level 24: Epic Resurgence
Level 26: Divine Mastery
Level 28: Triumphant Attack
Level 30: Nimble Blade

ITEMS
Magic Dragoncloth Armor +6 x1
Amulet of Protection +6 x1
Magic Spiked chain +6 x1
====== End ======


Serene Killer Damage 103.4687

Assuming flanking (CA) with your owl bear.
Assuming 1 other ally is adjacent.
Not assuming triuphant attack or word of exchange.

40 vs AC.  (70%, 10% crit)
6.5 (2d4 + AR) + 9 (wis) + 6 (enh) + 3 (feat) + 1 (twf) + 3 (expertise) + 6 (unity) + 9 (PO) + 2 (owlbear) = 45.5

41 vs AC.  (93.75%, 19% crit)
13 (4d4 + AR) + 9 (wis) + 6 (enh) + 3 (feat) + 1 (twf) + 3 (expertise) + 6 (unity) + 9 (PO) + 2 (owlbear) +1 (con) = 53

Crit: 52- 9 (painful oath) = 43 * 96% (triumphant attack, i'm not recursing) = 41.28 + 3 (max dice) + 21 (6d6) = 65.28

45.5 * .7 + 65.28 * .1 = 38.378
53 * .93.75 + 65.28 * .19 = 62.0907
+3 (divine distraction)
= 103.4687


KPR 0.564723106

Between soulforged hammering, fury's assualt, epic resurgence and divine mastery i'm just going to assume 1 extra attack per turn.

45.5 -9 (painful oath) = 
36.5 * .91 + 65.28 * .19
= 45.6182
+103.4687
= 149.0869 / 264
= 0.564723106


Other thoughts:
Variants: Serene with Armor of Faith could make a nice balanced build.
Items: It's very easy to boost damage with some items.  Iron armbands of power is a given.  Frost is a classic.  Symbol of victory is an easy bonus.
Stats: You could drop Wis a bit since avengers reroll.  This can open up other races.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

That looks solid.  I'll have to look over it more... but my knee jerk is to get it up in the wiki somewhere.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

That looks solid.  I'll have to look over it more... but my knee jerk is to get it up in the wiki somewhere.



Is the idea to use it every turn, or just recover it once? This is directly from the power:


Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage. If the target deals damage to any of your allies before the end of your next turn, you regain the use of this power. You can regain the use of this power only once per encounter.

If you've found a way around this, it's very nice indeed.

That looks solid.  I'll have to look over it more... but my knee jerk is to get it up in the wiki somewhere.



Is the idea to use it every turn, or just recover it once? This is directly from the power:


Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage. If the target deals damage to any of your allies before the end of your next turn, you regain the use of this power. You can regain the use of this power only once per encounter.

If you've found a way around this, it's very nice indeed.


Not the power, the path feature.

Whenever you enter a new rune state, you can enter the rune state of vengeance instead. When any ally hits an enemy adjacent to you while you are in this rune state, you can make a melee basic attack against that enemy as an immediate reaction. This rune state then ends.

It's great, but you need to use a runic power to get into the rune state.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Whoops, my mistake! The base concept looks great.
Would like to see Scale Spec sometime during Epic. Being harder to hit means your +wis to damage will trigger more often.

Hindering Shield might be able to be worked in there as well... somewhere.
Would like to see Scale Spec sometime during Epic. Being harder to hit means your +wis to damage will trigger more often.

Hindering Shield might be able to be worked in there as well... somewhere.

Scale Spec doesn't stack with shield spec, and shield boost Ref too.

Put in Hindering Shield and World Serpents Grasp in, and bumped the encouraging/stout shield down to the end.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Looks interesting - I see a couple of issues:
You're very dependent on your Defender to keep your opponent next to you. Given it is an immediate either way, they can simply shift away, trigger your Battle Awareness once, and then do that again the next round. Then you don't get an off-attack.

They can simply move a 2nd enemy next to you before attack, thereby robbing you of your oath benefit(if there is a Defender involved)

In a much more minor note, why not get proficiency with Spiked Shield over Heavy Shield? That way, you get a Rhythm Blade Spiked Shield and don't suffer a penalty to a bunch of skill checks...
Looks interesting - I see a couple of issues:
You're very dependent on your Defender to keep your opponent next to you. Given it is an immediate either way, they can simply shift away, trigger your Battle Awareness once, and then do that again the next round. Then you don't get an off-attack.

Depends alot on inititive order.  If you go right before your ally, the enemy won't have a chance to do anything.

Though, yes,  keeping the enemy close, and making them attack you is an issue.  A strong OA, Hindering Shield, and World Serpents Grasp should cover most, but certainly not all of it.

They can simply move a 2nd enemy next to you before attack, thereby robbing you of your oath benefit(if there is a Defender involved)

Again, depends on inititive order, though it wouldn't hurt to pick up an avenger "get oath" util or 2.

In a much more minor note, why not get proficiency with Spiked Shield over Heavy Shield? That way, you get a Rhythm Blade Spiked Shield and don't suffer a penalty to a bunch of skill checks...

I'd rather have the extra enchantment slot and take the penalty to skills.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

In a much more minor note, why not get proficiency with Spiked Shield over Heavy Shield? That way, you get a Rhythm Blade Spiked Shield and don't suffer a penalty to a bunch of skill checks...

I'd rather have the extra enchantment slot and take the penalty to skills.



What extra enchantment slot? A spiked shield enchanted as a weapon doesn't count as an arms slot item and this build would appear to want an arms slot item, not a shield one...
In a much more minor note, why not get proficiency with Spiked Shield over Heavy Shield? That way, you get a Rhythm Blade Spiked Shield and don't suffer a penalty to a bunch of skill checks...

I'd rather have the extra enchantment slot and take the penalty to skills.

What extra enchantment slot? A spiked shield enchanted as a weapon doesn't count as an arms slot item and this build would appear to want an arms slot item, not a shield one...

Ah, good point.

Still i'd rather keep this itemless.  I made note of it in the Variants section.

Also got DPR.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Also, Hindering Shield only slows until the start of your next turn.  I don't know if this will affect much feat-wise with regard to World Serpent's Grasp, but it seems the slow would go away before you could hit again since Overwhelming Strike has the forced movement and that goes off mid-round.
Also, Hindering Shield only slows until the start of your next turn.  I don't know if this will affect much feat-wise with regard to World Serpent's Grasp, but it seems the slow would go away before you could hit again since Overwhelming Strike has the forced movement and that goes off mid-round.

Ouch, your right, that does make World Serpent's Grasp a fail...

Guess i'll go trident + shield + polearm momentum + battering shield.  That cost me a little accuracy...

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Ouch, your right, that does make World Serpent's Grasp a fail...

Guess i'll go trident + shield + polearm momentum + battering shield.  That cost me a little accuracy...




Well, on the bright side, you can pick up Impaling Spear from your martial MC and never ever miss with Overwhelming Strike...unless you roll a 1 of course.

Edit:  Oh man.  I hate to bring more bad news, but you can't get the rune of protection benefit and the rune of vengeance benefit at the same time from the same power.  When you use a runic power, you choose the runestate (destruction, protection, or vengeance) and gain said benefits.  If you choose protection, you get the rider effect, but not the immediate reaction attack and vice versa with entering vengeance.

Edit2:  And Shield Spec's bonus to reflex is a feat bonus which overlaps with Superior Reflexes.  So you may as well replace it with Scale Spec to recover the speed penalty.  Or swap out Superior Fort/Reflex for Improved Defenses and save a feat.
Ouch, your right, that does make World Serpent's Grasp a fail...

Guess i'll go trident + shield + polearm momentum + battering shield.  That cost me a little accuracy...

Well, on the bright side, you can pick up Impaling Spear from your martial MC and never ever miss with Overwhelming Strike...unless you roll a 1 of course.

Made a note on the variant section, but i don't want to break my "all defense" build.
Edit:  Oh man.  I hate to bring more bad news, but you can't get the rune of protection benefit and the rune of vengeance benefit at the same time from the same power.  When you use a runic power, you choose the runestate (destruction, protection, or vengeance) and gain said benefits.  If you choose protection, you get the rider effect, but not the immediate reaction attack and vice versa with entering vengeance.

Not true.

1) You choose your runestate
2) get the rider from the state you chose
3) enter the runestate
3b) Instead of entering the runestate you choose, you enter the runestate of vengene instead.

Plus, you don't actually have the rune of protection/destruction (runemaster), so you don't get any rune effect anyways (eg. no +1 to hit/resist for allies), you only get flexible powers.

Edit2:  And Shield Spec's bonus to reflex is a feat bonus which overlaps with Superior Reflexes.  So you may as well replace it with Scale Spec to recover the speed penalty.  Or swap out Superior Fort/Reflex for Improved Defenses and save a feat.

Done, thx.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I'm going to have to disagree about the timing of when you enter a runestate.  From p. 99 of PHB3 under Rune Master:

When you are going to use a runic power, you first choose one of the runes noted in the power-either the rune of destruction or the rune of protection-and then use the power, applying the chosen rune's effects. The moment you choose the rune, you enter its rune state.

So basically from the wording, when you choose to use a runic power, you first choose which runestate to use.  When you choose the rune, you enter its state.  However, the L11 feature lets you enter rune of vengeance instead.  This all occurs before any attack rolls for the power are made since it says "when you are going to use".

I thought I had things a bit mixed up because of the hybrid runepriest aspect.  Though I'm wondering about the whole runestate thing now since all that information is under the Rune Master feature.  So now my question is do you need the Rune Master feature to enter runestates or is it inherent in the runic keyword?

Edit:  Ahh wait I see.  The question is whether choosing a runestate or being in a runestate confers the riders of the power.  If you only need to choose the rune of protection then you would get both the power's protection rider and the vengeance state.  But if you need to be in the runestate, then that's a whole other can of worms.  I was interpreting it as the latter.

Edit2: Agreed with kilpatds.  It would really suck if you gave up the protection/destruction riders on all your powers.  I'm now convinced that you get the power's rider upon choosing the runestate in terms of RAI, but I don't know if there's anything in terms of RAW to support it.  Though that makes hybrid Runepriests a lot more interesting.  I'm gonna go toy with the class some...

This is not an infrequent rules issue...

If you can'd do as Mellored says, then all the Runepriest PPs blow, because their cool feature requires you to give up the kickers on your powers.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Didn't this issue come up with the alternative runes article and the answer we got was that it worked as mellored said?
Yup.  I just read the forum discussion on the Class Acts: Runepriest article in Dragon 394 and someone mentioned the explanation of the Runic keyword is on pg. 217 of PHB3.  I really wish they put that with the Runepriest's Rune Master feature because it clearly states that you get the power's rider when you choose the runestate and then enter it afterwards, whereas the normal text is...well...a bit unclear.  

It also implies that the Protection/Destruction riders on the powers are inherent in the Runic keyword itself rather than the Rune Master feature.  So, even hybrid Runepriests without that feature can use their power's riders.  

But yep!  Mellored is perfectly right! 
sorry to get this topic back on the surface, but could you please link the discussion thread, Sirrus21? or anyone else that knows what he's talking about
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

There ya go.  The last page or so kinda sums it up but you can go through it all for a more detailed discussion.
so here is the issue that I am having with my DM

he is saying that because i am a Hybrid, Avenger/Runepriest that in order for me to gain the rider powers associated with the powers, I must get the "rune master hybrid feat"

below is what he wrote:
PHP3 Pg 99 runemaster class features. the first line there says some of your powers have the runic keyword. when you are going to use a runic power ,you first choose one of the runes noted in the power~ the rune of protection or rune of destruction~ and then use the power applying the runes effects.

Then is goes on to talk about the other bonus you get as well

As far as I read the ability to use the runic keyword ability is tied to the class feature Rune master. I read all the forums I could as well and all of them are just players some might be a dm but none posted anything in writing published by wotc in any form I saw.

How you guys are reading this is that the rider effects of the powers are seperate from the rune master ability.  is there a document somewhere written by a DM/GM of WotC that says what exactly is the right way to do this?
He's wrong. If a power has the Runic keyword, you pick the rider. PHB3, look up the entry on the Runic keyword. Has nothing to do with you, everything to do with the power.
I'd like to see a str/con runepriest|warlock variant with eldritch strike.  Double attacks and sliding dudes into zones sounds neat.
Alcestis is right.  The Protection/Destruction riders on powers are inherent in the runic keyword.  You do not need the Rune Master feature.  All that feature does is let you have the aura buff from being in a runestate.

And that explanation was published in PHB3, but it is in the glossary under the Runic entry.  It explains everything much MUCH more neatly than the Runepriest section does.  So, yea...cold, hard RAW for your DM  Smile 
I believe this build needs Hybrid Talent Runestate to benefit from Hammer of Vengeance PP. 

Rune Powers are phrased... poorly... in the PHB3. There are two different explanations for Rune States described, one in the class description and a very different one described in the compendium at the back of the book. RAW I believe it works like this.

1. The Runepriest chooses Destruction or Protection when they attack with the power. They gain the benefits listed in the power. This WORKS WITH HYBRIDS. Example. The At-Will that reduces damage done by your CON score when Protection is chosen as its Rune.
2. They then gain a rune state based off the benefit they chose with the power. This is the Aura style bonus located in the front of the class. The character does NOT gain this as a Hybrid. Example. Entering the Destruction Runestate that gives all allies +1 to hit the monster.
2a. At this stage, if they have a PP they can give up this aura for their special PP runestate. As written, they need Hybrid Talent to gain access to a runestate. The Runepriest also gains the benefits from the power of either Protection or Destruction (depending on what they chose). 

Both sections of PHB3 use similar phrases (I believe both call it Rune State) but try reading both and I think it is decently clear. It is very common to overlook however. The Build needs Hybrid Talent to benefit from Vengeance I believe.
I believe this build needs Hybrid Talent Runestate to benefit from Hammer of Vengeance PP. 

Rune Powers are phrased... poorly... in the PHB3. There are two different explanations for Rune States described, one in the class description and a very different one described in the compendium at the back of the book. RAW I believe it works like this.

1. The Runepriest chooses Destruction or Protection when they attack with the power. They gain the benefits listed in the power. This WORKS WITH HYBRIDS. Example. The At-Will that reduces damage done by your CON score when Protection is chosen as its Rune.
2. They then gain a rune state based off the benefit they chose with the power. This is the Aura style bonus located in the front of the class. The character does NOT gain this as a Hybrid. Example. Entering the Destruction Runestate that gives all allies +1 to hit the monster.
2a. At this stage, if they have a PP they can give up this aura for their special PP runestate. As written, they need Hybrid Talent to gain access to a runestate. The Runepriest also gains the benefits from the power of either Protection or Destruction (depending on what they chose). 

Both sections of PHB3 use similar phrases (I believe both call it Rune State) but try reading both and I think it is decently clear. It is very common to overlook however. The Build needs Hybrid Talent to benefit from Vengeance I believe.

No. Entering a Rune State just means you used a power with the Runic keyword. You get no benefit from this (zip, zilch, nada) because you lack the Rune Master Class Feature. But you have, RAW, entered a Rune State, which can therefore be converted into the PP's Rune State. All of this keys off the Runic keyword and has zilch to do with the Rune Master Class Feature.

Also this is the second or third time this issue has been answered in this thread.
I disagree. 

I feel this is a common misconception and reading over this discussion I felt it was important to define rune states and where the two (somewhat conflicting) explanations for "What happens when a Rune Power is Used" can be found.

Looking at my book, a power gives a benefit based off Protection or Destruction, and this benefit is granted by the power. Using the power grants this Runic benefit and is granted by the power.

Rune Master Class Feature then gives a second state, as defined in Glossary (in the back of the book, not the character section) regarding Rune States, that grants an aura based off the option chosen in the power. This aura is what is replaced by the PP selection. This is also the Aura gained by taking the Hybrid feat.

If instead, for example, the Vengeance state was entered from powers (instead of the Aura afterwards) NOT A SINGLE RUNEPRIEST POWER would have ANY special effect because the Runepriest would lose them to gain his Vengeance State. Yet would he still enter his Aura state after the power was used? What is a Vengeance Rune Master Aura feature? 
I disagree. 

I feel this is a common misconception and reading over this discussion I felt it was important to define rune states and where the two (somewhat conflicting) explanations for "What happens when a Rune Power is Used" can be found.

Looking at my book, a power gives a benefit based off Protection or Destruction, and this benefit is granted by the power. Using the power grants this Runic benefit and is granted by the power.

Rune Master Class Feature then gives a second state, as defined in Glossary (in the back of the book, not the character section) regarding Rune States, that grants an aura based off the option chosen in the power. This aura is what is replaced by the PP selection. This is also the Aura gained by taking the Hybrid feat.

If instead, for example, the Vengeance state was entered from powers (instead of the Aura afterwards) NOT A SINGLE RUNEPRIEST POWER would have ANY special effect because the Runepriest would lose them to gain his Vengeance State. Yet would he still enter his Aura state after the power was used? What is a Vengeance Rune Master Aura feature? 

Sigh.

Rune State: You are then in the rune state associated with the chosen rune until you enter a new rune state or until the end of the encounter. Certain effects rely on you being in a particular rune state

Runic Keyword. Does the power have the Runic Keyword? Yes? You're in a Rune State. Because that is what the Runic keyword says it does. There is no possible debate on this point unless you want to just claim that the Runic keyword somehow doesn't say what it says.

With me?

Runepriests have a special class feature called "Rune Mastery." It states when you enter a Rune State (which is entirely dependent on the Runic keyword and has nothing to do with anything else) you get xyz benefit.

This in no way conflicts with the wording under Rune Master, which says you when you use a power with the Runic keyword you enter a Rune State (well, no duh, that is what the Runic Keyword does).

You are correct that a lot of people get this wrong, you're just wrong about which side is correct.
Sigh.

Rune State: You are then in the rune state associated with the chosen rune until you enter a new rune state or until the end of the encounter. Certain effects rely on you being in a particular rune state

Runic Keyword. Does the power have the Runic Keyword? Yes? You're in a Rune State. Because that is what the Runic keyword says it does. There is no possible debate on this point unless you want to just claim that the Runic keyword somehow doesn't say what it says.

With me?

Runepriests have a special class feature called "Rune Mastery." It states when you enter a Rune State (which is entirely dependent on the Runic keyword and has nothing to do with anything else) you get xyz benefit.

This in no way conflicts with the wording under Rune Master, which says you when you use a power with the Runic keyword you enter a Rune State (well, no duh, that is what the Runic Keyword does).

You are correct that a lot of people get this wrong, you're just wrong about which side is correct.



Sigh.

Yes. I can see you are quoting from the Class Description of the Rune Priest. Perhaps, for the sake of the viewing audience, you should read the Glossary about Rune Powers. You may note in said Glossary it uses very similar NAMES for what a Rune State is, yet uses a different explanation of when powers trigger said states, and the choices the Runepriest can make about entering them.

In BOTH my posts I have stated there is a descrepancy in the Runepriest mechanics depending on where in the book they are read. This difference is very important for hybrids and paragon paths because Runepriests DO NOT WORK if you use your explanation of Rune States. They would lose all power benefits and there is no explanation in the PPs of what the Vengeance Rune State Aura is, or what it could do! 

Summary
The Description in the Glossary makes PPs work correctly. The Description in the Class Section (which you have quoted) makes PP Rune States undefined and Rune Powers lose all benefits.  
That is a quote from under the Runic keyword. ^.^ Grats on proving you didn't read the material in question.

Also all your, nonsensical, objections to this working (or to Runepriests working in general) are 1.) Based on the fact that you can't read the rules and 2.) Have been dealt with multiple times in this thread. I encourage you to read it.
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

There ya go.  The last page or so kinda sums it up but you can go through it all for a more detailed discussion.



That would be good for people to read. I've given my take on the build and its lack of Rune Mastery. It needs that Feat or it does not work. Vengeance "Aura" cannot be activated unless you have the Rune Mastery class feature from the Runepriest hybrid options (exact name is most likely off on that one.)

I feel that more examples of how YOU think Rune Powers work is in order, not just you saying arguements are "nonsensical." I play a runepriest hybrid in my game, and I spent a good bit of time reading the class description and the glossary explanation. They're different. If you disagree you need to give a simple explanation of how powers work if you are NOT a runepriest and use them.

What happens if a Half Elf uses a Runepriest Power? Does he not get any riders on the powers? Does he enter a Rune State for the encounter? According to your reading of the rules a Half Elf could enter Rune States because he used a Rune Power, and thus gain a Rune State of a PP. I'm pretty sure thats not correct by the Glossary definition of Runic Powers, yet if you read from the Class section its vaguely implied that could be how it works.
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

There ya go.  The last page or so kinda sums it up but you can go through it all for a more detailed discussion.



That would be good for people to read. I've given my take on the build and its lack of Rune Mastery. It needs that Feat or it does not work. Vengeance "Aura" cannot be activated unless you have the Rune Mastery class feature from the Runepriest hybrid options (exact name is most likely off on that one.)

I feel that more examples of how YOU think Rune Powers work is in order, not just you saying arguements are "nonsensical." I play a runepriest hybrid in my game, and I spent a good bit of time reading the class description and the glossary explanation. They're different. If you disagree you need to give a simple explanation of how powers work if you are NOT a runepriest and use them.

What happens if a Half Elf uses a Runepriest Power? Does he not get any riders on the powers? Does he enter a Rune State for the encounter? According to your reading of the rules a Half Elf could enter Rune States because he used a Rune Power, and thus gain a Rune State of a PP. I'm pretty sure thats not correct by the Glossary definition of Runic Powers, yet if you read from the Class section its vaguely implied that could be how it works.



I will tell you how I think they work.  I will also tell you how I know they work and how the PHB says they work and how CharOp knows they work.

For everyone following along at home, please turn to pg 217 of the PHB 3.  We will be discussing the section in the "Runic" keyword.  For today's lesson, we will use the example provided to us from the class of the Half-Elf.

Now, said Half-Elf (named Jim) wants to use a runic power that he selected with his racial power.  What should Jim do?  That's right class, he should turn to pg 217 of his PHB 3 and read the rules.  What happens to Jim?

1. Jim decides to use a runic power
2. Jim must choose first choose one of the runes in the power
3. Jim then uses the power
4. Jim then applies the chosen runic effect from the power
5. Jim then enters a runic state associated with the chosen rune
6. Jim stays in this runic state until he enters a new one or the encounter ends


I don't know how you think it works but it is exceptionally clear RAW.  In fact, this is one of the most clear things I have had the pleasure of discussing here.  The rules give you an honest to god step by step process of casting a runic power.  What more do you want?

Also, before you say anything about what the Runepriest class says, don't.  It doesn't matter.  Jim was not a runepriest in any way.  Any discription under the runepriest is invalid and you go by the rules presented for ALL classes which appears in the glossary.  It can also be found in the compendium if one were so inclined.
I'd like to see a str/con runepriest|warlock variant with eldritch strike.  Double attacks and sliding dudes into zones sounds neat.

That could be a fun combo.

Could probably get a nice str/con warforged runepriest|battlemind / hammer of vengence.   Lightning rush, get hit, attack with a runepriest power (+Con), buff your allies, and get a free attack again (+Con).

Edit: Actually, i'm going to do that.  I'll post the build in a bit.

Edit2: NM, they are both immediate actions don't work. 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Yeah, it's all about twinking the basic attacks now in this brave new world.
I posted a very durable runepriest|fighter that uses Vengeance to make a nasty Wicked Strike attack over here:

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

If you need to sack some of the durability of the build, you can further optimize it as a striker, but it can do some gnarly executioner's axe crit fishing...


@ 16 it looks like this unmodded:

-1 STR vs AC attack, 1[W]+STR+CON+CON (PP feature) - triggering off an ally successfully hitting.

Under ideal conditions it becomes:

-1 STR vs AC attack, 1[W]+STR+CON+CON (PP feature) +CON (Wrathful Hammer)

Not bad for an immediate action that is relatively easy to trigger. In terms of at-will optimization, it's a pretty decent combo even if eats the OA combat challenge may provide.
Hmmm... Do you really have to be Hybrid Runepriest for this to work?  

Half-Elf Avenger Hammer of Vengence.

Grab Adept Dilettante and Versitle Master at 11 to grab the mc and use Word of Exchange at-will using your wisdom.  Grab Two-Weapon Opening using a rending Double Axe.

Presto! Most Damaging Crit Fisher in the game. 
If your not hybrid, you loose a possible second wis to damage defense, a heals, at-will sliding allies (which helps ensure your second attack), and some nice team enabling dailies.

But a half-elf would do more damage, at lest by himself. Probably depends on the team to figure out if the runepriest is generating more total.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

The avenger/runepriest wouldn't be gaining oath benefit when using the a runepriest at-will. However, a half elf avenger that picks this power up could use his Oath of Emnity while using the runepriest at-will. The only wierd thing abou a build like this is, you actually do less damage on turns you don't use an at-will. So avengers can use controllery powers and not give up any damage.
The avenger/runepriest wouldn't be gaining oath benefit when using the a runepriest at-will. However, a half elf avenger that picks this power up could use his Oath of Emnity while using the runepriest at-will. The only wierd thing abou a build like this is, you actually do less damage on turns you don't use an at-will. So avengers can use controllery powers and not give up any damage.

It's a possibility, but you loose the Wis bonus to damage when missed, the encounter heal (which set's up your runestate, so you can use an avenger power, heal, and still get the free attack), as well as some choice runepriest powers.

Overall, it would boost your damage/mobility, though not neccicaraly the team's total damage/mobility, and certainly not the teams survival.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I decided to play this character at level 12 in a one-shot to see if it was worthwhile to play in LFR. (Primarily because I refuse to start at any level other than 1, so I didn't want to play it up to level 11 and then go, "awwh, shucks. This isn't as fun as I'd hoped.")

I toyed around with the Half-Elf Avenger vs. Avenger|Runepriest idea for quite a while. Weeks. (Yeah.... I'm a geek.) After building them both a couple of times and hashing it out, I decided that the Avenger|Runepriest was a superior build for me for a couple of reasons.

1) Playability in heroic tier. I'm not a fan of Avenger encounter powers (1W damage... wooo!) and the Runepriest encounter powers add some flavor in there.

2) It's a lot less boring. The Half-Elf version does the following: Word of Exchange, imm. react. Overwhelming Strike. Rinse, repeat. Rinse, repeat. Rinse... oh good god, why didn't I just play a Twin Striking Ranger? The hybrid though, he has some options. Namely those nice encounter powers which mellored didn't include in his build. At level 3, you get the (only, at least up to level 12) Avenger minor action attack. This leaves you free to take Runepriest encounter powers at levels 1 and 7. I liked Divine Rune of Thunder (daze the target) and Word of Befuddlement (an ally hits it? I get to attack the target and he gets to attack himself. lol). They both added a lot more than just "-2 to defenses". Are they as good as -2 to defenses? Well, maybe not ... but I didn't want to play a character that only used 2 powers for it's entire life. And those two encounter powers bring forth some really interesting utility. I like having an encounter daze as that can really help out and the "an ally hits it so I hit it and it hits itself" is just too funny.

So it's really more than just what mellored said. Yes, the extra heal is gravy and the bonus damage helps mitigate some of what you would have lost by rolling twice on Word of Exchange, but most importantly: the hybrid version allows you to diversify what you do by entering into rune states through Rune Priest encounter powers. That's ... it's huge.

FWIW, I took a +1 Blood Fury weapon so I could bloody myself at the start of the encounter, a couple of ways of drawing it as a free action, and really boosted my defenses through items. Bloodiron Armor gave me +2 defenses against the target I hit and Circlet of Indomitability helped me shore up my Will defense even more (Will 30 at level 12? Mmmhhhmm.) The +1 Rhythm Blade Spiked Shield gave me the equivalent of a heavy shield at the cost of using a 1-h weapon. My AC pre-Bloodiron matched the defender (and actually topped her against my focus target). I utilized frost-cheese to help push my dpr up a bit more. I should note here that I used a (frost) rapier instead of a polearm as I didn't have the ability to do both frost-cheese and polearm shenanigans at level 12. Light Blade Expertise did give me an extra +2 dmg on each attack, though, which more than made up for the 1d8 vs. 1d10 (so really an extra +1 dmg on average) and allowed me to save a feat from bastard sword. 

My take on the build:
Show

Ata Huto, level 12
Longtooth Shifter, Runepriest|Avenger, Hammer of Vengeance (PH3)
Runic Artistry: Defiant Word
Hybrid Avenger: Hybrid Avenger Wil
lHybrid Talent: Runepriest Armor Proficiency
Background: Auspicious Birth (Auspicious Birth Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 22, Con 14, Dex 11, Int 11, Wis 20, Cha 9.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 17, Con 13, Dex 10, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 8.

AC: 30 Fort: 25 Reflex: 21 Will: 30HP: 90 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 22

TRAINED SKILLS
Perception +17, Insight +17, Athletics +20

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +6, Arcana +6, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +11, Endurance +10, Heal +11, History +6, Intimidate +5, Nature +11, Religion +6, Stealth +6, Streetwise +5, Thievery +6

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Power of Skill
Level 4: Light Blade Expertise
Level 6: Weapon Focus (Light Blade)
Level 8: Superior Will
Level 10: Wintertouched
Level 11: Painful Oath
Level 12: Lasting Frost

POWERS
Hybrid at-will 1: Overwhelming Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Word of Exchange
Hybrid encounter 1: Divine Rune of Thunder
Hybrid daily 1: Rune of Endless Fire
Hybrid utility 2: Holy Blessing
Hybrid encounter 3: Fury's Advance
Hybrid daily 5: Bond of Foresight
Hybrid utility 6: Rune of Meritorious Alacrity
Hybrid encounter 7: Word of Befuddlement
Hybrid daily 9: Rune of Boundless Fury
Hybrid utility 10: Mighty Sprint (because it's really nice getting to my target without having to charge)

ITEMS
Rhythm Blade Spiked shield +1, Frost Rapier +3, Blood Fury Longsword +1, Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier), Boots of the Fencing Master (heroic tier), Circlet of Indomitability (heroic tier), Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (heroic tier), Gloves of Ice (paragon tier), Bloodiron Wyvernscale Armor +3, Deep-Pocket Cloak +3, Ruby Scabbard (heroic tier)


Obviously the character is probably over-equipped slightly, but considering that I plan on playing him in LFR, I'd actually argue that he's under-equipped. (I'm bad for not taking hold items. I won't get a foot item until I get to the one I want. I refuse to use found-item slots on +1 or +2 items unless I can get the one I want; instead, I spend gold to buy them, etc, etc.).
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