How hard is it to stand up?

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In one of our game sessions, one of the guys got knocked prone. Naturally, the first thing he wanted to do was to stand up. This is my first time being GM, and so I don't have any prior history to refer to, so I quickly flipped through the manual to find the answer. I was surprised that it takes a move action--it takes a character's entire movement for one round just to stand up? Is that really the way it's supposed to be?

-Thvor 
A standard round is 6 seconds. Which pretty much means, it takes a character about 2-4 seconds to stand up from prone. That's actually not a bad speed, and makes sense to me!
It takes about as long for someone to stand up as it does for another to move 30'.  That's pretty much accurate, yes.  Especially if they were knocked prone, and not simply laying down.
You try standing up wearing armor sometime ;P
One of my players wasn't familar with how prone works either. They were disappointed it didn't take a Standard action. If you think about it, it isn't all that often that someone gets the first swing in immediately after getting up from being knocked down IRL.
If you think about it, it isn't all that often that someone gets the first swing in immediately after getting up from being knocked down IRL.



I get knocked down
But I get up again
You're never going to keep me down

Caoimhe Ora Snow

Game Designer, The Queen's Cavaliers

5e D&D Stuff: Birthright Conversion

If you think about it, it isn't all that often that someone gets the first swing in immediately after getting up from being knocked down IRL.



I get knocked down
But I get up again
You're never going to keep me down


Unless you've been reduced to a negative number of hit points greater than your bloodied value...

Personally, I find that it's hard to get up when my legs are broken or when I'm too drunk...
One of my players wasn't familar with how prone works either. They were disappointed it didn't take a Standard action. If you think about it, it isn't all that often that someone gets the first swing in immediately after getting up from being knocked down IRL.


I'm not fond of RL. It doesn't have acrobat boots...

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Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
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no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
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Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
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Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
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And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
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Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
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It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
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.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
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I don't say this often, but ... LOL
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You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
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I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
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112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
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Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
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Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
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This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
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HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
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I was surprised that it takes a move action--it takes a character's entire movement for one round just to stand up? Is that really the way it's supposed to be?



So getting up off the ground requiring your entire movement is a surprise...

But taking 2 steps without being attacked using your whole movement is NOT?

Bonus fact: Getting up doesn't provoke opportunity attacks. So it's not just standing up, it's avoiding being hit in the process.
AlexandraErin: If last season was any indication, I think Encounters is pretty much the elemental opposite of "organized" play!

So getting up off the ground requiring your entire movement is a surprise...

But taking 2 steps without being attacked using your whole movement is NOT?

Bonus fact: Getting up doesn't provoke opportunity attacks. So it's not just standing up, it's avoiding being hit in the process.



So, getting up is supposed to be the equivalent of shifting. I can go with that, if the character is in the middle of melee combat. But if the nearest enemy is 5 squares away, you don't need to be as careful when you're moving, so you're not going to move as slowly, right?

Basically, my surprise boiled down to the fact that, in a normal round, a PC can move 6 squares--or about 30 feet. Without running. In full battle armor. Or they can heave themselves off the ground. It takes me a lot longer to move 30 feet than to stand up, even if I'm getting up from my back (which wouldn't be the case if a character intentionally dropped prone for cover, which had happened in our game).

But, if that's the RAW, that's the RAW, I guess...

-Thvor 

So getting up off the ground requiring your entire movement is a surprise...

But taking 2 steps without being attacked using your whole movement is NOT?

Bonus fact: Getting up doesn't provoke opportunity attacks. So it's not just standing up, it's avoiding being hit in the process.



So, getting up is supposed to be the equivalent of shifting. I can go with that, if the character is in the middle of melee combat. But if the nearest enemy is 5 squares away, you don't need to be as careful when you're moving, so you're not going to move as slowly, right?

Basically, my surprise boiled down to the fact that, in a normal round, a PC can move 6 squares--or about 30 feet. Without running. In full battle armor. Or they can heave themselves off the ground. It takes me a lot longer to move 30 feet than to stand up, even if I'm getting up from my back (which wouldn't be the case if a character intentionally dropped prone for cover, which had happened in our game).

But, if that's the RAW, that's the RAW, I guess...

-Thvor 

Yes, it's the equivalent of shifting.

In full "battle armor" would constitute heavy armor in my book unless someone is wearing special Omega Tech. In any case, heavy armor reduces your speed by 1 so a PC would have a move of 5, typically, unless they were a Felinoid, Speedster, Wheeled, or someone who gets bonus speed. I think Seismic reduces speed by 1 so a heavy armor-wearing Seismic would have a speed of 4...
In full "battle armor" would constitute heavy armor in my book unless someone is wearing special Omega Tech. In any case, heavy armor reduces your speed by 1 so a PC would have a move of 5, typically, unless they were a Felinoid, Speedster, Wheeled, or someone who gets bonus speed. I think Seismic reduces speed by 1 so a heavy armor-wearing Seismic would have a speed of 4...


Sorry, was typing my comment in a hurry, and so used the wrong term. Should have said battle array, or gear. Wasn't trying to specify heavy armor.

But, still--a speedster in light/no armor takes as long to stand up as a heavy-armor wearing seismic takes to go 20 feet? That still doesn't make much sense to me. I may just houserule that standing up takes half your movement, unless you're trying to prevent opportunity attacks (and thus "shifting into a standing position").

Thanks for the comments, all.

-Thvor
It takes me a lot longer to move 30 feet than to stand up, even if I'm getting up from my back.


Are you sure about that?  Put something in your hands and try it.  Have your friend move across the room without running (possibly with the same thing in his hands).  I'm betting the difference in time in negligible.
I'm not to worried about how realistic the rule is or not. The system has to abstract to some point or we'd be doing physics calculations every time our characters farted. Or if we were talking about chess, we'd be really ticked that Knights can only move in L and inverse-L directions. I mean, hasn't anyone ever seen a horse run straight?

Just deal with the rule that standing up is a move action, you get one move action per turn and you can trade your standard action in for a second move action. It's the same deal in D&D 4e.

Of course, if you want hyper-realistic rules on how people can move, talk, walk, and scratch their butts, feel free to redesign the game and create house rules. Nobody's stopping you. Just remember that this game system is abstracted to speed up the game.
I'm not to worried about how realistic the rule is or not. The system has to abstract to some point or we'd be doing physics calculations every time our characters farted.

If farting were as significant in a combat situation as taking a hit hard enough to knock you on your ass then I think you'd have a point.
Or if we were talking about chess, we'd be really ticked that Knights can only move in L and inverse-L directions. I mean, hasn't anyone ever seen a horse run straight?

Does chess even take place in the real world? There's a moving tower and the only explicitly female piece is arguably the most strategically significant, it's a toss up which is more unrealistic.
Of course, if you want hyper-realistic rules on how people can move, talk, walk, and scratch their butts, feel free to redesign the game and create house rules. Nobody's stopping you. Just remember that this game system is abstracted to speed up the game.

Hyper-realistic? What? We're talking about standing up in front of the individual that knocked you down and then inexplicable getting a swing in before they can react. The fights I've seen don't typically see one attacker wait for the fallen attacker to get up and attack. Swapping the designation of move to standard isn't exactly fundementally altering the abstract system or the precursor to an avalanche of tedium. Besides, I'm not even worried about it. I just thought my player made a good point, don't see that happening too often.
Are you arguing his own point to him?

Any way you look at it, the system is abstracted to represent the fluidity of combat in regimented turns.  Actions that are in no way simultaneous are merely abstractions of actions that happen semi-concurrently. 
*sigh* The point is that standing, going prone, etc. are not attack-based actions, they are movement and therefore classified as move actions.

If *YOU* want to make it a house rule that standing up is a standard action, have at it, it's your game.

Personally, I have no issues with stating that standing up is a move action. You can still attack after you stand up but you cannot move unless you have something that lets you move with a minor action.

The game is set up so that things are grouped into logical (at least to me) categories. Attacks, grabbing something, performing a skill, those are standard actions. Standing, sitting, running, walking, climbing, etc. are all movement.

That's what I think the game designers were attempting to accomplish.

Again, it's your game, house rule all you want! Make it fun for you. House ruling is not an evil act at all.

But, still--a speedster in light/no armor takes as long to stand up as a heavy-armor wearing seismic takes to go 20 feet? That still doesn't make much sense to me. I may just houserule that standing up takes half your movement, unless you're trying to prevent opportunity attacks (and thus "shifting into a standing position").

Thanks for the comments, all.

-Thvor



Standing up doesn't provoke OAs.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Are you arguing his own point to him?

Any way you look at it, the system is abstracted to represent the fluidity of combat in regimented turns.  Actions that are in no way simultaneous are merely abstractions of actions that happen semi-concurrently. 

*sigh* The point is that standing, going prone, etc. are not attack-based actions, they are movement and therefore classified as move actions.

I don't get you guys. You take a "isn't it a little weird..." observation and launch into some diatribe that amounts to calling me a game delaying realism nazi and repeating what everyone here already knows about the rules.

Next time just go, "yeah, it is a little weird" and leave it at that.
Standing up doesn't provoke OAs.

Sounds like Thvor is going to charge them that for half their move action. His house rule sounds like they can either spend the full move turn getting up without OAs or half with OAs.

I understand the confusion, and I know some other systems handle it differently. And I think we all understand the pleasure of having a dissenting player at the table as well . . .

If you intend to house rule it, by all means go ahead - do what you need to make the game fun for everybody.  But unless the whole table is unhappy with the rule as written, I would suggest taking the following route in trying to convince your player that this is in fact actually a realistic approximation before departing from the written rule:

Remember that falling prone is almost always a result of getting attacked or falling - not voluntarily sitting down, not ducking to avoid something, not breakdancing.  It's you ending up on your butt/face/back when you were standing a tenth of a second ago, usually accompanied by some damage.

Perhaps your character is wobbly as he rises, or has to be careful to avoid further attacks from an adjacent enemy, or is simply biding his time to stand and attack.

If you've ever watched Boxing or Kickboxing matches, watch how long it takes these guys to stand up after being knocked down by a punch -- it's easily 6 seconds or more -- and realize that your character (a) probably suffered a much more grievous attack and (b) is still getting a minor and standard action as well.

And as a final snarky comment, you should ask your player "In a game that allows for winged yeti, gelatinous cockroaches, a monster that eats clothing, and pig-man biker gangs, you're worried about what kind of action it takes to stand up from prone?" 
Standing up doesn't provoke OAs.

Sounds like Thvor is going to charge them that for half their move action. His house rule sounds like they can either spend the full move turn getting up without OAs or half with OAs.


Right. Like I said earlier, we had an encounter where a player intentionally dropped prone for the cover bonus (from ranged attacks); when he wanted to stand up again, we were both surprised that it took his entire move for the round. There were no enemies within a very significant range of him, so opportunity attacks were not an issue.

My impression (especially from all of the discussion on this thread) is that the RAW that standing up takes a full move action is based on the assumption that you're prone because you've just been smacked down, and that the smacker is still standing right next to you. In which case you're going to want to exercise care when standing, so as to not provoke an OA. This seems to me to correlate with the idea of a shift--you use up all your move action to back away carefully from an attacker.

But if you don't need (or want) to worry about being careful, you can move a lot farther than the standard shift's single square. (In the extreme case, you can toss caution to the winds and run twice your normal movement, but that's not really important to this discussion...) So, my suggestion was that if you're laying on the ground and want to get up quickly, you can--but since you're not being as careful, you would risk OA if someone's there to take advantage. The benefit, of course, is that you get back on your feet faster, and are therefore able to actually move a little; half your speed seemed like a good compromise.

Incidentally, since this is mentioned but not spelled out in the GW rulebook, when you're prone you're able to crawl. My understanding is that this is half your movement. Does crawling provoke OA?

-Thvor
If you've ever watched Boxing or Kickboxing matches, watch how long it takes these guys to stand up after being knocked down by a punch -- it's easily 6 seconds or more -- and realize that your character (a) probably suffered a much more grievous attack and (b) is still getting a minor and standard action as well.

That's what I'm thinking. Unless the character was planning on moving around they could conceivably be knocked down each round without it having an impact on the course of the fight.
Incidentally, since this is mentioned but not spelled out in the GW rulebook, when you're prone you're able to crawl. My understanding is that this is half your movement. Does crawling provoke OA?

-Thvor

Yeah, it does.
Basically, my surprise boiled down to the fact that, in a normal round, a PC can move 6 squares--or about 30 feet. Without running. In full battle armor.



What D&D calls "walking" is more of a trot or hustle (half-jogging), but still well within the realm of possibility. In combat, you're not going to casually stroll across the battlefield taking your time.

30 feet per round is 3.5 miles per hour. Full armor (Speed 5) is 2.75 miles per hour

A modern military march is 2 miles per hour, including rest breaks, which matches up with 2.75 mph pretty closely. Infantry packs weigh 70 pounds, more than plate mail.

It's also an established fact that someone can charge over 20 feet in less than 2 seconds. It's called the 20 foot rule among police - the fact that someone with a knife 20 feet away can charge and stab you before you can draw your gun and fire - 2 seconds.

As for how long it takes boxers to get up, there are two differences here.
1: Boxers deliberately take their time getting up because the rules make them safe while they're down.
2: Boxers are hit until they are dizzy and lose balance and fall. In D&D, being knocked prone is normally the result of a TRIP, meaning that your brains aren't scrambled and you can immediately scramble to your feet.
AlexandraErin: If last season was any indication, I think Encounters is pretty much the elemental opposite of "organized" play!
So one easy fix is this:

"Standing up isn't a move action itself, but it uses up one square of movement."

Thus if you shift-stand, you're using your shift square to stand up without provoking an opportunity attack.

If you're 4 squares away, you stand up and move over there for a total of 5 squares of movement.

This makes knocking someone prone less effective, but it also means less frustration of "well all I do is stand up and then look stupid since I don't have a ranged attack to use."

Caoimhe Ora Snow

Game Designer, The Queen's Cavaliers

5e D&D Stuff: Birthright Conversion

So one easy fix is this:

"Standing up isn't a move action itself, but it uses up one square of movement."

Thus if you shift-stand, you're using your shift square to stand up without provoking an opportunity attack.

If you're 4 squares away, you stand up and move over there for a total of 5 squares of movement.

This makes knocking someone prone less effective, but it also means less frustration of "well all I do is stand up and then look stupid since I don't have a ranged attack to use."




Have a ranged attack, don't be some bozo without a hammer to throw.
Not that I was thinking of anyone in particular, bill!

OR WAS I

Caoimhe Ora Snow

Game Designer, The Queen's Cavaliers

5e D&D Stuff: Birthright Conversion

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