12/16/2010 TD: "Ten Things I Learned from Worlds 2010"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Top Decks Article, which goes live Thursday morning on magicthegathering.com.
So... we learned that mythics dominate standard and that Jace is so stupidly good that it also dominates extended.

And yet, Mike, you don't seem to think that's a bad thing.

I'd say you may have learned 10 things, but you've also learned nothing.
Ali always has the weirdest decks and I always love them.  I mean come on Nicol Bolas at worlds? I died laughing.
@Highwayman - How are mythics relevant to this discussion? There are a few of them that are really good. Is that the only thing we can say about this format? There is so much more to discuss and think about here than this pretty simplistic and uninteresting conclusion.
So... we learned that mythics dominate standard and that Jace is so stupidly good that it also dominates extended. And yet, Mike, you don't seem to think that's a bad thing. I'd say you may have learned 10 things, but you've also learned nothing.



*complains about JMS*
*has Jace avatar* 
That would be the non-mythic Jace Beleren avatar.

And considering almost every deck listed had 3-4 copies of JTMS, I'd say it's fair game. 
@Highwayman - How are mythics relevant to this discussion? There are a few of them that are really good. Is that the only thing we can say about this format? There is so much more to discuss and think about here than this pretty simplistic and uninteresting conclusion.





No, its not the only thing we can say about this format. But it is the first thing that jumps out.

I'm not disguising that this is a *moan*, but it is a moan coupled with a plea. I don't think the "new power 9" standard is healthy. Never have. Mike's article is a comment, amongst other things, on the health of the formats he reviews, but he always steps around this point.

On other points, to show I was reading the rest of the article, I enjoyed the wargate/scapeshift/omen deck. About six months ago I posted a deck that used omen with valakut and scapeshift, but never really took it far enough. Well done that guy.
@Highwayman - How are mythics relevant to this discussion? There are a few of them that are really good. Is that the only thing we can say about this format? There is so much more to discuss and think about here than this pretty simplistic and uninteresting conclusion.





No, its not the only thing we can say about this format. But it is the first thing that jumps out.

I'm not disguising that this is a *moan*, but it is a moan coupled with a plea. I don't think the "new power 9" standard is healthy. Never have. Mike's article is a comment, amongst other things, on the health of the formats he reviews, but he always steps around this point.

On other points, to show I was reading the rest of the article, I enjoyed the wargate/scapeshift/omen deck. About six months ago I posted a deck that used omen with valakut and scapeshift, but never really took it far enough. Well done that guy.

Calling it a "new power 9" isn't very realistic.  Power level is relative.  Obviously Jace, TMS is very powerful, but the average power level of cards has increased significantly.  The difference in power level between Jace and the next best set of cards isn't very big.

And I'm not sure what bemoaning mythics as a rarity achieves.  While Jace is certainly an expensive card, the overall cost of cards has not really increased significantly.  In pre-mythic days, while no single card really got over $30-35 in standard, decks had many different $10-15 cards.  Now you have 4 cards that are $50 and then the rest of your deck is filled with $3 cards.

If Jace is your poster child for "mythics are bad", he isn't even particularly omnipresent.  There are 3 decks in standard that are playing him at the moment.

And as for Jace dominating Extended, he is actually barely played in extended at the moment. 
Highwayman does this is every TDs article.  It gets pretty tedious after awhile.  
Fair enough. I never wanted to be part of the problem, but in my defence the only times I felt minded to comment were when Mike's reports seemed to expose the dominance of a handful of chase mythics, and yet despite much debate in the magic community he failed to comment. Trouble is, that seemed to happen most weeks.

New year's resolution then. Mike, I've tried to make the point through persistence but I concede that your stubborn silence has outlasted the patience of the forums to hear the debate. Though I feel your (otherwise excellent) articles avoidance of this the issue is shameful, I won't comment on it in your thread any more.
Mike you know I love you, but you made a pretty big logic error:

"I mean look at the Top 8 decks. Of the Top 8, five of them were Blue-Black Control decks using exclusively Grave Titan and Sea Gate Oracle for main-deck creatures"

Who cares that UB decks populated the Top 8 decks?  In worlds, top8 competetors are determined by extended and draft decks also.  You can't say "hey 8 top 8 decks were UB, that must be the best deck!" Even statistically, it's not.
Fair enough. I never wanted to be part of the problem, but in my defence the only times I felt minded to comment were when Mike's reports seemed to expose the dominance of a handful of chase mythics, and yet despite much debate in the magic community he failed to comment. Trouble is, that seemed to happen most weeks. New year's resolution then. Mike, I've tried to make the point through persistence but I concede that your stubborn silence has outlasted the patience of the forums to hear the debate. Though I feel your (otherwise excellent) articles avoidance of this the issue is shameful, I won't comment on it in your thread any more.



I can see where you are coming from, and in all cases I agree with what you are saying when it comes to the ubiquity of a handful of mythics that are just out of the budgets of players that want to compete seriously but simply can't.

The only thing that is unclear to me is exactly what you would like for Mike to say. Putting the absurdity that Mike's words would put Jace and Primeval Titan in dollar bins around the world, what is it that he could possibly say or comment on that would somehow ease tensions over the Mythic Rarity Debate?

I can't imagine there is anything for him to say—or anything that he would be inclined to say, for that matter—about the Chase Jace situation for a few reasons. One is that he is speaking from a position of a person that does not have to buy cards. At all. So he hasn't a clue what everyone's talking about. He has completely forgotten what it is like to buy a booster and hope for the best, as well as buying singles so that he is able to compete. There are a lot of players out there like that, and I suppose that his column is assuming that people are either like that, or have access to the cards needed to compete, so he is not inclined to say something along the lines of "too bad this deck costs too much for a lot more people to play it."
On that note, though, I do find it strange that while they don't mention anything about the price of cards or anything, mainly because their job is to move sealed product, they allow publication of things like BDM's article about road to making Nationals, specifically when he was getting his deck together, and he articulated that he had zero of the cards he needed, and completely bypassed even the thought of purchasing a single card at all from anywhere. That also enhances the notion that these people don't buy cards and are speaking above the people that have to buy cards or don't already have the cards.
There's also the fact that it's a little to late to mention anything about How Expensive Jace Has Gotten. Nobody's cracking packs in hopes of completing their playset of Jace anymore. It's simply too far after the fact. Jace has been relatively out of control for enough time now that people have settled with the fact that if you can make blue mana, you need to fork over the cash for Jace or simply lose. It's an unwritten rule in everyone's head now, and basically whatever he may or may not say about basically already goes without saying.

But to all that say that people's like you and I concerns are unfounded, ours are very valid concerns. Anyone who dismisses our concerns as whining should simply look over to the recent concerns of the EDH community, a noncompetitive game. The 51 new cards that EDH will have will be very limited, and there are fears—probably mostly based on what they've seen with the mythics issues, in addition to what keeps Doubling Season out of some peoples' hands—that they will be far out of the reach of their budgets, especially being that most of the cards in that format come from the dollar bin.

Orzhova Witness

Restarting Quotes Block
58086748 wrote:
58335208 wrote:
Disregard women acquire chase rares.
There are a lot of dudes for whom this is not optional.
97820278 wrote:
144532521 wrote:
How;s a 2 drop 1/2, Flying broken? What am I missing?
You're missing it because *turns Storm Crows sideways* all your base are belong to Chuck Norris and every other overused meme ever.
Fair enough. I never wanted to be part of the problem, but in my defence the only times I felt minded to comment were when Mike's reports seemed to expose the dominance of a handful of chase mythics, and yet despite much debate in the magic community he failed to comment. Trouble is, that seemed to happen most weeks. New year's resolution then. Mike, I've tried to make the point through persistence but I concede that your stubborn silence has outlasted the patience of the forums to hear the debate. Though I feel your (otherwise excellent) articles avoidance of this the issue is shameful, I won't comment on it in your thread any more.



I can see where you are coming from, and in all cases I agree with what you are saying when it comes to the ubiquity of a handful of mythics that are just out of the budgets of players that want to compete seriously but simply can't.

The only thing that is unclear to me is exactly what you would like for Mike to say. Putting the absurdity that Mike's words would put Jace and Primeval Titan in dollar bins around the world, what is it that he could possibly say or comment on that would somehow ease tensions over the Mythic Rarity Debate?

I can't imagine there is anything for him to say—or anything that he would be inclined to say, for that matter—about the Chase Jace situation for a few reasons. One is that he is speaking from a position of a person that does not have to buy cards. At all. So he hasn't a clue what everyone's talking about. He has completely forgotten what it is like to buy a booster and hope for the best, as well as buying singles so that he is able to compete. There are a lot of players out there like that, and I suppose that his column is assuming that people are either like that, or have access to the cards needed to compete, so he is not inclined to say something along the lines of "too bad this deck costs too much for a lot more people to play it."
On that note, though, I do find it strange that while they don't mention anything about the price of cards or anything, mainly because their job is to move sealed product, they allow publication of things like BDM's article about road to making Nationals, specifically when he was getting his deck together, and he articulated that he had zero of the cards he needed, and completely bypassed even the thought of purchasing a single card at all from anywhere. That also enhances the notion that these people don't buy cards and are speaking above the people that have to buy cards or don't already have the cards.
There's also the fact that it's a little to late to mention anything about How Expensive Jace Has Gotten. Nobody's cracking packs in hopes of completing their playset of Jace anymore. It's simply too far after the fact. Jace has been relatively out of control for enough time now that people have settled with the fact that if you can make blue mana, you need to fork over the cash for Jace or simply lose. It's an unwritten rule in everyone's head now, and basically whatever he may or may not say about basically already goes without saying.

But to all that say that people's like you and I concerns are unfounded, ours are very valid concerns. Anyone who dismisses our concerns as whining should simply look over to the recent concerns of the EDH community, a noncompetitive game. The 51 new cards that EDH will have will be very limited, and there are fears—probably mostly based on what they've seen with the mythics issues, in addition to what keeps Doubling Season out of some peoples' hands—that they will be far out of the reach of their budgets, especially being that most of the cards in that format come from the dollar bin.





Thanks for taking the time to read and comment on my post. I agree wholeheartedly with your analysis (although that won't surprise many people reading this).

To answer your question, I honestly don't mind what Mike has to say as long as he's honest about it and gives some sort of reasoning to support his view. If I could borrow the 'presedential debate' style of questioning, I suppose it would be framed like this:

"Mr Flores, a number of players feel quite strongly that the introduction of mythic rarity has led to cards deliberately designed to be distortingly powerful in the standard, and even extended format so much so that not playing them is increasingly seen as playing a handicap. Whilst not all mythics are this powerful, the handful that are now dominate these formats and have led to a price bubble on the secondary market for those chosen few. Do you think this is healthy for the game, and in particular the formats, given that (a) the formats are becoming defined by a handful of powerful mythics rather than a larger spread of cards and (b) the price bubble is excluding, or at least dissuading, more players from particpating in the formats and (c) could there be other longer term negative consequences to this approach that we have yet to feel?"

I suppose Mike could say something which would irate me, like (a) no, I like it this way because its like formula 1 racing (b) I don't care, it doesn't affect me, so let them eat Jace and (c) no I don't think the bubble will ever burst and if it does I'll just move on. I don't actually think he would quite so (Shawshank-style) "obtuse" but I'd respect that more than saying nothing.

What would he actually say if Jack Bauer was ensuring he told the truth? I'm honestly not sure. And since I am retiring from repeating the question, I guess I'll never know.
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