Pheonix Neural Jack, should it be banned from player decks.

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If you do not know, the omega tech Pheonix Neural Jack allows a Pc to regain their bloodied value in hp when they drop to 0, It is a cheat death card.  Not only that, it's salvageable at 7th level.  A super science device like the PNJ is very Gamma World, but it seems just unfair for one Pc to have sole access to it.  It is a rare card after all (and we have only one as a group).  But I could see it as a card in a Dm's deck giving every player a chance to get thier hands on it.

What do you all think?

Any other player deck restrictions out there, certain cards or other restrictions on player decks?
If you do not know, the omega tech Pheonix Neural Jack allows a Pc to regain their bloodied value in hp when they drop to 0, It is a cheat death card.  Not only that, it's salvageable at 7th level.  A super science device like the PNJ is very Gamma World, but it seems just unfair for one Pc to have sole access to it.  It is a rare card after all (and we have only one as a group).  But I could see it as a card in a Dm's deck giving every player a chance to get thier hands on it.

What do you all think?

Any other player deck restrictions out there, certain cards or other restrictions on player decks?

You've run into the collectable aspect of the game now.

A player who puts more money into the game, will have (in theory!) better cards to chose from when making their deck. This is the benefit to them putting more money into the game! This is pretty much the intent - Sell more cards by making your characters better as you get more cards.

You could get around this by allowing your players to proxy any cards into their player decks, if you have real copies of them or not. There's a thread on this board with a spoiler list, so you can make mockups and just use card sleeves or whatever to play even with cards your group doesn't have.

You could also rule that any Rares players want to insert into the game should be inserted into the GM deck, to maintain their open rarity... But I wouldn't suggest doing something like that unless your players also like the idea.

For my Gamma World group, I fully expect to be the only person actually buying cards, so I don't see this coming up as an issue... I may even go through and set up some sort of draft system if we end up playing enough to merit player decks, so they just draft them from my collection.
I'm considering squashing the tactical card play entirely in my game by having everything drawn from the GM decks. As far as I can tell there doesn't seem to be any intrinstic benefit in allowing players to choose the range of loot their characters will eventually find.

There's no solid in character justification for this advantage, it detracts from the unpredictable motif the game strives for, and it seems like it does present the risk of unbalancing the game. I don't get the impression my players will object, ultimately it saves them the hassle of hunting down rare cards.
There's no solid in character justification for this advantage


There's a rather decent one that circulates these boards on a fairly consistent basis: that the character carries around a collection of broken omega junk (represented by the player deck), but every so often finds a piece (battery, hydraulic, duct tape) he or she needs to juryrig it back into working order.
I'm considering squashing the tactical card play entirely in my game by having everything drawn from the GM decks.



The one problem I see with using the gm deck only, is players horde omega tech and do not use it.  Player decks will get more omega tech in play.  Player decks also give the player a way to better define thier Pc while also maintaining that random nature of Gamma World and alpha flux.  The player decks keeps the randomness in a definable range, for the most part as they will always be opportunity to draw from a gm deck fro alpha mutations and omega tech.  The main reason I like the idea of player decks is because it is another way for players to define  thier pcs. 

Thanks for thhe input.  

There's no solid in character justification for this advantage

There's a rather decent one that circulates these boards on a fairly consistent basis: that the character carries around a collection of broken omega junk (represented by the player deck), but every so often finds a piece (battery, hydraulic, duct tape) he or she needs to juryrig it back into working order.

that's not a bad home brewed explanation, but doesn't quite explain where the items/pieces came from. the idea of them carrying all of their deck around as busted pieces from the start of the game and gaining access on the pretense of repairing it without a mechanics check is a little disconnected from the rest of the game. it is suppose to be fairly common loot anyway and the salvage explanation is already used later when they want to retain the tech at diminished capacity.

it seems like the semi-random element of shuffling and drawing works with the setting, but the CCG out of character strategy aspect, which evidently require a bit of creative interpertation to seem plasuable, is a bit contrived. not to take realism in a world of antagonistic mutant bunnies too seriously, but dropping the player decks solves the issue and doesn't cause a ripple.
I'm considering squashing the tactical card play entirely in my game by having everything drawn from the GM decks.

The one problem I see with using the gm deck only, is players horde omega tech and do not use it.  Player decks will get more omega tech in play.

It's my understanding that omega tech can be horded either way, whether it was drawn from a player deck or the GM deck. Even if the players choose not to use what they find in combat I expect I can find a way to incorporate their assests into other areas, especially since it seems most of gamma world operates on a bartering economy.
The main reason I like the idea of player decks is because it is another way for players to define  thier pcs. 

I can't argue with that. In the absense of the more sophisticated character customization rules of D&D, that is certainly an area which could stand to be improved upon. I suppose since these abilities and objects are largely temporary I've never considered them extensions of the character. It's a good point.
I think a big problem with the player decks is that everyone seems to be pushing their player decks to the minimum size. If players went with 20 cards decks instead of 7 card decks, things wouldn't be repeating so noticably...
that's not a bad home brewed explanation, but doesn't quite explain where the items/pieces came from. the idea of them carrying all of their deck around as busted pieces from the start of the game and gaining access on the pretense of repairing it without a mechanics check is a little disconnected from the rest of the game. it is suppose to be fairly common loot anyway and the salvage explanation is already used later when they want to retain the tech at diminished capacity.

it seems like the semi-random element of shuffling and drawing works with the setting, but the CCG out of character strategy aspect, which evidently require a bit of creative interpertation to seem plasuable, is a bit contrived. not to take realism in a world of antagonistic mutant bunnies too seriously, but dropping the player decks solves the issue and doesn't cause a ripple.


I suppose if you're not interested in finding a solution other than the one you're already set on, then yes, it probably seems a little disconnected.  Objectively speaking, though, it's not actually a homebrew, since it doesn't require an alteration of the game mechanics, it doesn't conflict with any written explanation, and it doesn't take any more "creative interpretation" than making, for instance, a yeti rat swarm seem plausible.  And honestly, since when has "takes creative interpretation" been a drawback in a tabletop roleplaying game?
I would tailor my DM decks for the situation and require the players to pull from either the DM deck or their own deck depending on the level of treasure. For example, if you have a 3 encounter adventure, maybe they only pull from their tailored deck on the final encounter and pull from the DM deck on the first two. 

Even the power-player will get more enjoyment out of this game when they think of interesting ways to use the surprise of items from the larger and more random DM deck.  
I suppose if you're not interested in finding a solution other than the one you're already set on, then yes, it probably seems a little disconnected.

It just seems like that explanation is redundant and raises other questions, like why isn't it all listed in their inventory or why isn't functionality aquired by a mechanics check. as written this aspect is disconnected, as evidence it either does need to be explained away somehow or otherwise altered.
Objectively speaking, though, it's not actually a homebrew, since it doesn't require an alteration of the game mechanics, it doesn't conflict with any written explanation, and it doesn't take any more "creative interpretation" than making, for instance, a yeti rat swarm seem plausible.

they at least give advice on how to mesh origins. as written, you're just suppose to find the omega tech laying around.
And honestly, since when has "takes creative interpretation" been a drawback in a tabletop roleplaying game?

it depends on how satisfactory it is and why it's done. your mileage may vary if it's a necessity that arises from a marketing strategy aimed at getting you to buy more trading cards. to me, it seems like one of many dissociated mechanics that threaten to detract from the roleplay.
It just seems like that explanation is redundant and raises other questions, like why isn't it all listed in their inventory or why isn't functionality aquired by a mechanics check. as written this aspect is disconnected, as evidence it either does need to be explained away somehow or otherwise altered.


It doesn't need to be written in their inventory because it's in their deck before the game starts, it will stay in the deck for as long as they keep their character, and it cannot be taken from their deck.  You don't need to write it down for the same reason you don't write down a character's readied mutations or held omega tech.  Salvaging and the omega charge check do not require Mechanics.  In fact, nothing about omega tech is skill dependent at all.  Why is this in any way disconnected?  (From the precedent set by the game, of course -- we could talk all day about how the game is divorced from reality.)

they at least give advice on how to mesh origins. as written, you're just suppose to find the omega tech laying around.


Actually, that's not what's written.  Nothing written in the Gamma World rulebook in any way contradicts the suggestion I made.  You're reading more than what is written on the page, finding in it the meaning you wanted to find.  Ironically, as if you had your own deck of cards, separate from the book's.  

it depends on how satisfactory it is and why it's done. your mileage may vary if it's a necessity that arises from a marketing strategy aimed at getting you to buy more trading cards. to me, it seems like one of many dissociated mechanics that threaten to detract from the roleplay.


Exactly.  You went into it expecting to find a marketing strategy, and that's exactly what you found.  While I appreciate any link to the Alexandrian, your example doesn't match the concepts put forward by the article, because the explanation as presented requires no house ruling (see the section entitled "Explaining it all away") or breach of narrative.

And really, that whole article is (unfortunately) a long tirade against the separation of narrative and mechanics, which 4e has in spades and Gamma World even moreso.  If that's where your primary issue lies, then you're going to spend more time complaining than playing.
  You've run into the collectable aspect of the game now.

A player who puts more money into the game, will have (in theory!) better cards to chose from when making their deck. This is the benefit to them putting more money into the game! This is pretty much the intent - Sell more cards by making your characters better as you get more cards.



If you want it to be like that then that is how you would approach investing in booster pack.  But one can also invest in GW booster packs to add variety in game play and their GW experience, just like any other RPG.


...You could also rule that any Rares players want to insert into the game should be inserted into the GM deck, to maintain their open rarity... But I wouldn't suggest doing something like that unless your players also like the idea.

 

That is similar to my solution, but I will make that call on a card by card bases, thier are other rare cards I find comfortable in player decks.  As a group we are all new to this GW so as Gm, the rest will follow my lead.  I made this thread to see what others think about powerful omega tech rares like PNJ.


For my Gamma World group, I fully expect to be the only person actually buying cards, so I don't see this coming up as an issue... I may even go through and set up some sort of draft system if we end up playing enough to merit player decks, so they just draft them from my collection.


I am in a similar situation, I will be the one to buy any booster packs and I am.  Currently we have 3 Gm decks and 8 booster packs.  I own 2 Gm deck (that is another story) and 7 of the booster packs.  I think we have enough cards to make player decks, but I was holding off until we understand the game better.  When we started we had no idea on how to customize a deck and really what cards are available and what they do.

Thanks to the feed back.
There's no solid in character justification for this advantage


There's a rather decent one that circulates these boards on a fairly consistent basis: that the character carries around a collection of broken omega junk (represented by the player deck), but every so often finds a piece (battery, hydraulic, duct tape) he or she needs to juryrig it back into working order.



I like that.  Currently I am having players describe to me how and where they found the omega tech item they have drawn.  But I will keep this idea in mind when we move to using player decks.
You don't need to write it down for the same reason you don't write down a character's readied mutations or held omega tech.

What reason is that? Because it's disconnected from the rest of the game, right? It is suppose to be random and not possessed all at once, otherwise a character would have it on their sheet, right?
Salvaging and the omega charge check do not require Mechanics.  In fact, nothing about omega tech is skill dependent at all.  Why is this in any way disconnected?

That's the disconnect, if you are using the explanation that the character has all these parts that somehow become functioning omega tech without a skill check. The character repairs the tech, but doesn't need to be proficient in mechanics? If it's just because they got lucky it isn't any different from the cannon explanation, the player draws a card from a deck, and that still doesn't reconcile in character why the player is prechoosing the range of random loot. The real reason, because WotC wants to sell you cards, sticks out. If suspension of disbelief isn't an issue in your game that's fine. I'm just of the opinion it's a reminder that you're playing a character rather than exploring a post extra-dimensional collision wasteland.
(From the precedent set by the game, of course -- we could talk all day about how the game is divorced from reality.)

Of course, in the same way one could spend all day inventing reasons for why a knight in chess moves in an L shape.
Actually, that's not what's written.  Nothing written in the Gamma World rulebook in any way contradicts the suggestion I made.

It doesn't contradict it because it's a blindspot in the game without a cannon explanation. Hence the reason why a reason needed to be invented here.
Exactly.  You went into it expecting to find a marketing strategy, and that's exactly what you found.  While I appreciate any link to the Alexandrian, your example doesn't match the concepts put forward by the article, because the explanation as presented requires no house ruling (see the section entitled "Explaining it all away") or breach of narrative.

"And if you're slapping on fluff text in order to answer these questions, the answers will be different depending on the fluff text you apply -- and that makes the fluff text a house rule."

It does require house ruling, you just don't consider explaining away the reason why the character suddenly has functional omega tech as repairing without it being assosiated to the repair skill as house ruling. It does present questions, where did it come from, how did it suddenly start working without the need to have the character fix it. That's house ruling and still doesn't smooth the gap between the forced card game element into the roleplay game in character. It's just swapping one set of unanswered questions for another.
And really, that whole article is (unfortunately) a long tirade against the separation of narrative and mechanics, which 4e has in spades and Gamma World even moreso.  If that's where your primary issue lies, then you're going to spend more time complaining than playing.

That's why I'm a proponent of dropping the player decks and using the GM deck. It makes sense to keep the random element random and not to bother with creating anymore house rules to justify a thinly veiled sales pitch.
.., a thinly veiled sales pitch.


I think this opinion sums up your whole arguement.  I think it is the reason you don't see the potential for role playing  with a player deck in Gamma World.  The Op is looking to open discussion about banning of certain cards in player decks and why or why not (I know because I wrote the Op).  Clearly you have no intention of such a discussion and have highjacked this thread to air your discontent of the GW booster pack marketing.  Make your own thread and beat that old horse some where else. 
I think it is the reason you don't see the potential for role playing  with a player deck in Gamma World.

To go with the explanation offered here it doesn't really jive with roleplaying. It's improving a reason why the universe is trying to sell you cards. It's clearly not being ignored, that is the reason why an explanation needed to be made. I'm just explaining my preference in circumventing the topic.
The Op is looking to open discussion about banning of certain cards in player decks and why or why not (I know because I wrote the Op).  Clearly you have no intention of such a discussion and have highjacked this thread to air your discontent of the GW booster pack marketing.

Because the issue isn't related? My first post laid out three reasons, including the game balance issue cited in the OP, why dropping the player deck seemed sensible to me. If FlashbackJon wants to defend the player deck from an roleplay perspective, why not? It is a roleplay game and it seemed like a valid criteria in the context of banning cards to me.
Make your own thread and beat that old horse some where else. 

Chill out, I'm not stopping you from taking your Pheonix Neural Jack and going home.

I think it is the reason you don't see the potential for role playing  with a player deck in Gamma World.

To go with the explanation offered here it doesn't really jive with roleplaying. It's improving a reason why the universe is trying to sell you cards. It's clearly not being ignored, that is the reason why an explanation needed to be made. I'm just explaining my preference in circumventing the topic.
The Op is looking to open discussion about banning of certain cards in player decks and why or why not (I know because I wrote the Op).  Clearly you have no intention of such a discussion and have highjacked this thread to air your discontent of the GW booster pack marketing.

Because the issue isn't related? My first post laid out three reasons, including the game balance issue cited in the OP, why dropping the player deck seemed sensible to me. If FlashbackJon wants to defend the player deck from an roleplay perspective, why not? It is a roleplay game and it seemed like a valid criteria in the context of banning cards to me.
Make your own thread and beat that old horse some where else. 

Chill out, I'm not stopping you from taking your Pheonix Neural Jack


Are you done? Did you make your point.  YOu don't like the marketing of booster packs,  Got it.  Now you can take your gripes and go start your own thread on the subject.
Are you done?

Quite. Try not to act so shocked next time you come across a rare intentionally overpowered card.
Addressing the Original Topic - honestly, if your players want to hold onto thier specific characters instead of indulging in the entertainment that is GW Character Creation, let them. I think a major part of the fun is the random generation and the attempts at explaining the bizzarre. The game really isnt focused well on balance, and if your players are all taking multiple copies of that for thier player decks to the point that its a problem, you probably have other issues to work out with your group.

Honestly, I see that you dont seem to want to talk about the problems caused by the booster method, but thats really a large part of where this issue arises from. I think the second post says it pretty well. While I realize PNJ isnt actually one of the booster cards, its still related to the issue that some cards will be inherintly much more powerful than others due to thier system of purchase. Add that to a rule that lets you trim down your deck seriously small.... theres some major potential for abuse.

If you've got a set group, then either your players will abuse that. . . in which case you need to talk to them, or you dont trust your players not to. . . in which which case you have something to think about, or its not actually a problem, because the issue wont come up much.

If you dont have a set group, its probably because you play at official games and then its a moot point anyway.
If you do not know, the omega tech Pheonix Neural Jack allows a Pc to regain their bloodied value in hp when they drop to 0, It is a cheat death card.  Not only that, it's salvageable at 7th level.  A super science device like the PNJ is very Gamma World, but it seems just unfair for one Pc to have sole access to it.  It is a rare card after all (and we have only one as a group).  But I could see it as a card in a Dm's deck giving every player a chance to get thier hands on it.

What do you all think?

Any other player deck restrictions out there, certain cards or other restrictions on player decks?

Myeh, the amount of damage that is spread around during an encounter makes this item OK, once per encounter. The problem is, the card is discarded after use until you can salvage it. Then you're stunned after using it. That might be just the opening a monster needs to put you down for good.

So I think this card is fine. It seems powerful, but in reality...myeh.
If you do not know, the omega tech Pheonix Neural Jack allows a Pc to regain their bloodied value in hp when they drop to 0, It is a cheat death card.  Not only that, it's salvageable at 7th level.  A super science device like the PNJ is very Gamma World, but it seems just unfair for one Pc to have sole access to it.  It is a rare card after all (and we have only one as a group).  But I could see it as a card in a Dm's deck giving every player a chance to get thier hands on it.

What do you all think?

Any other player deck restrictions out there, certain cards or other restrictions on player decks?

Myeh, the amount of damage that is spread around during an encounter makes this item OK, once per encounter. The problem is, the card is discarded after use until you can salvage it. Then you're stunned after using it. That might be just the opening a monster needs to put you down for good.

So I think this card is fine. It seems powerful, but in reality...myeh.


I guess my issue is having a player monopolize that card in a player deck.   I am fine with letting that card in my GM deck.  It isn't like people are bringing there own cards to build thier own deck in our group.  I'm buying all the booster packs and sharing with the rest of the group.  So I have only one card like that.  But thanks for sharing.  I will definillty consider your opinion as I am still undecided on the issue. 

I guess my issue is having a player monopolize that card in a player deck.   I am fine with letting that card in my GM deck.  It isn't like people are bringing there own cards to build thier own deck in our group.  I'm buying all the booster packs and sharing with the rest of the group.  So I have only one card like that.  But thanks for sharing.  I will definillty consider your opinion as I am still undecided on the issue. 



This sort of changes things a bit. Honestly, if you're the only one with the cards, and you have only one copy of it, I would say it's up to you if you put it into the GM's deck, or put it into the supply the players can make their decks from. You should make your GM deck before the players make their deck, and then it just isn't an option - You don't have to ban it from the player decks, you just chose it as a rare potential treasure for the adventure.
If you do not know, the omega tech Pheonix Neural Jack allows a Pc to regain their bloodied value in hp when they drop to 0, It is a cheat death card.  Not only that, it's salvageable at 7th level.



It also dazes or stuns you. You're screwed for a round AND grant combat advantage. Maybe you came back with half your HP, but most likely half of those HP will be disappearing before you get your next turn.

Salvage 7 isn't a huge deal. Most characters won't live that long in the first place.

Finally, you're only up in arms about this because it's the one you've seen.

You want to complain, what about

81. Redundant Organs (A; R; Bio) Having redundant organs makes you difficult to kill. Plus, you could make a killing on the black market.
Benefit: Your maximum hit points, bloodied value, and current hit points are doubled.;
Overcharge: When you start your turn, you can roll a d20.; 10+: You gain a +2 bonus to all defenses while this card is readied.; 9 or less: Your new organs don’t fully function and you are dazed (save ends).

PNJ gives you an extra 50% HP, effectively.
Redundant Organs gives you an extra 100% HP... even more than that, because your second wind gives you more HP as well.

With 100 HP, a second wind (50) and PNJ (50) give you 200 total HP.

With 100 HP, redundant organs (100) and second wind (100) give you 300 total HP. 400 if you combo it with a PNJ.

Now watch this.
Level 10 uber feature: Keep one Alpha mutation between encounters.
Now I PERMANENTLY have double HP.

Not only that, once I successfully overcharge it, I keep those +2 defenses permanently.
After all, I get the +2 while the card is readied, and the Uber feature says "At the end of each encounter, you can choose one of your readied Alpha Mutation cards. You don't discard that card, and it remains readied for your next encounter."

Remains readied. Meaning it does not stop being readied, meaning the overcharge never wears off.
AlexandraErin: If last season was any indication, I think Encounters is pretty much the elemental opposite of "organized" play!
..,

Finally, you're only up in arms about this because it's the one you've seen.

You want to complain, what about

..,


I'm not up in arms about anything nor am I complaining about anything.  I'm trying to find equity for my group with concerning a rare card everyone will want but only one person can have, because we only have one. 

Besides PNJ is more than gaining %50 HP, you go from unconciuos, zero hitpoint and rolling for a death saves to being concious (albiet dazed or stunned for only a turn), 1/2 your total hit points back, and you are no longer rolling saving throws to save your Pcs life life.  In the group I Gm they tend to fight to gether, a dazed or stunned Pc can rely on his mates to get his back, while he recovers, well most of the time. 
In Famine In Far-Go, the Mythic origin is something you should be looking out for as well. They are conscious and fighting until they fail their first death save. (I think that's how it goes...)

Anyway, if your group is so cut-throat that they wouldn't pass an omega tech around to help their buds, then I'd be worried about it.

In my games, I allow the players to pass around their omega tech as a minor action, drop it as a free, etc. Just like any other piece of equipment. If they want to give it to someone who looks like they'll be going down, they can do that.

But generally, my group tends to figure out who are the guys who will rush into fights without thinking first then distributes their omega tech and equipment accordingly.

I wouldn't worry too much if one person has the neurojack equipped. Not at all. either it's finders keepers and the rest of the group will crap their pants the first time it works, or they'll share the tech to the benefit of the party.
..,

Finally, you're only up in arms about this because it's the one you've seen.

You want to complain, what about

..,


I'm not up in arms about anything nor am I complaining about anything.  I'm trying to find equity for my group with concerning a rare card everyone will want but only one person can have, because we only have one. 

Besides PNJ is more than gaining %50 HP, you go from unconciuos, zero hitpoint and rolling for a death saves to being concious (albiet dazed or stunned for only a turn), 1/2 your total hit points back, and you are no longer rolling saving throws to save your Pcs life life.  In the group I Gm they tend to fight to gether, a dazed or stunned Pc can rely on his mates to get his back, while he recovers, well most of the time. 



If you've got a group where the equality will become an issue... Honestly, I'd say either just put it into the GM deck if two players want to use it, or allow your players to proxy cards.
..,

Finally, you're only up in arms about this because it's the one you've seen.

You want to complain, what about


Besides PNJ is more than gaining %50 HP, you go from unconciuos, zero hitpoint and rolling for a death saves to being concious (albiet dazed or stunned for only a turn), 1/2 your total hit points back, and you are no longer rolling saving throws to save your Pcs life life.  In the group I Gm they tend to fight to gether, a dazed or stunned Pc can rely on his mates to get his back, while he recovers, well most of the time. 



And Redundant Organs is better in every way.
100 HP, again.

So you take 100 damage...
With PNJ, you will...
Fall unconscious.
Drop prone.
Regain 50 HP.
Wake up.
Still be prone.
Become stunned/dazed.

So now you're dazed or unconscious AND prone and have 50 HP.

Compared to Redundant Organs.
So you take 100 damage.
You will...
Have 100 HP.
And that's it.

ZERO drawbacks AND more benefit.

Everything you say about PNJ (not unconscious, not rolling death saves, having HP back) is also covered by Redundant Organs.

And yes, you ARE complaining. You're saying that the card is too powerful and should be banned. You're saying it's a problem. That's a complaint.

And instead of just dealing with it yourself, you come on to the forums to tell everyone else it should be banned. That's being all up in arms.
AlexandraErin: If last season was any indication, I think Encounters is pretty much the elemental opposite of "organized" play!
..,

Finally, you're only up in arms about this because it's the one you've seen.

You want to complain, what about

..,


I'm not up in arms about anything nor am I complaining about anything.  I'm trying to find equity for my group with concerning a rare card everyone will want but only one person can have, because we only have one. 

Besides PNJ is more than gaining %50 HP, you go from unconciuos, zero hitpoint and rolling for a death saves to being concious (albiet dazed or stunned for only a turn), 1/2 your total hit points back, and you are no longer rolling saving throws to save your Pcs life life.  In the group I Gm they tend to fight to gether, a dazed or stunned Pc can rely on his mates to get his back, while he recovers, well most of the time. 



If you've got a group where the equality will become an issue... Honestly, I'd say either just put it into the GM deck if two players want to use it, or allow your players to proxy cards.

I like that idea.  I will think about thanks.  Honestly I'm not upset about anything.  I just wanted to open up discussion about the possibility of banning certain cards, nothing more.  But hey thanks for the feedback. 
...

And Redundant Organs is better in every way.
100 HP, again.

So you take 100 damage...
With PNJ, you will...
Fall unconscious.
Drop prone.
Regain 50 HP.
Wake up.
Still be prone.
Become stunned/dazed.

So now you're dazed or unconscious AND prone and have 50 HP.

Compared to Redundant Organs.
So you take 100 damage.
You will...
Have 100 HP.
And that's it.

ZERO drawbacks AND more benefit.

Everything you say about PNJ (not unconscious, not rolling death saves, having HP back) is also covered by Redundant Organs.


I never argued PNJ was better than redundant organs, if you have issues with which is better thats your problem, you have no argument here.


And yes, you ARE complaining. You're saying that the card is too powerful and should be banned. You're saying it's a problem. That's a complaint.

No I am not complaining.  I never said PNJ should be banned, in fact my opening I state that I like PNJ in Gamma World, I just had issues with one player monopolizing the one PNJ card we have as a group.  I am more than willing to place that card in a Gm deck and let it into play that way and I am still open to the idea of leading a player have that card in a player deck.  I never advocated that everyone should ban the card and PNL should never be played.  There is a difference from advocating the ban of a card and opening the debate of restricting that card to gm decks only.


And instead of just dealing with it yourself, you come on to the forums to tell everyone else it should be banned. That's being all up in arms.


So yes we will deal with the issue when the time comes as a group, by ourselves.  I only wanted to open up the discussion of banning certain cards from player decks and possible ramifications nothing more.  You are the one up in arms about this issue, and only because you read into a post issues that are not there.   You should read my posts more clearly and get off the soap box, no one is complaining (except you), no one is up in arms (except you again) and looking to convince others to ban PNJ or WotC to ban PNJ. 
No I am not complaining.  I never said PNJ should be banned, in fact my opening I state that I like PNJ in Gamma World, I just had issues with one player monopolizing the one PNJ card we have as a group.

That is sort of complaining, but I think it's sort of justified.

Taking issue with the fact that a rare card is rare and powerful is sort of ridiculous though. That's the whole reason it's there, to be rare and powerful and thus desirable. The players are suppose to all want one of their own and they are suppose to go out and buy boosters to get them. I don't get why you seem so shocked. Fairness and equity isn't exactly the theme of any other collector card game I know about.
No I am not complaining.  I never said PNJ should be banned, in fact my opening I state that I like PNJ in Gamma World, I just had issues with one player monopolizing the one PNJ card we have as a group.

That is sort of complaining, but I think it's sort of justified.

Taking issue with the fact that a rare card is rare and powerful is sort of ridiculous though. That's the whole reason it's there, to be rare and powerful and thus desirable. The players are suppose to all want one of their own and they are suppose to go out and buy boosters to get them. I don't get why you seem so shocked. Fairness and equity isn't exactly the theme of any other collector card game I know about.



The problem isn't that it's rare and powerful. The problem is that since they only have one copy, if it goes into a player's deck, that player is the only one to get it. He's fine with it being rare and powerful, he doesn't like the idea that only one player is getting it.

Which is fine, I don't like it either, I'm actually not very fond of the whole player deck concept in the first place.
The problem isn't that it's rare and powerful. The problem is that since they only have one copy, if it goes into a player's deck, that player is the only one to get it.

^ rare. there is scarcity of it, not everyone can possess it, only one can. that's because it's rare.

He's fine with it being rare and powerful, he doesn't like the idea that only one player is getting it.

Why? There are presumably other cards that one or few players will possess during the game. This card is contentious because it is desirable, it is desirable because it is ^ powerful.

so his problem is precisely because it is rare & powerful.
The problem isn't that it's rare and powerful. The problem is that since they only have one copy, if it goes into a player's deck, that player is the only one to get it.

^ rare. there is scarcity of it, not everyone can possess it, only one can. that's because it's rare.

He's fine with it being rare and powerful, he doesn't like the idea that only one player is getting it.

Why? There are presumably other cards that one or few players will possess during the game. This card is contentious because it is desirable, it is desirable because it is ^ powerful.

so his problem is precisely because it is rare & powerful.



You're looking at this in too focused a fashion. He's fine with it being RARE, he's not okay with only one player having a CHANCE of getting it. If it's in a player's deck, ONLY that player can get it, and with a seven card "deck" it's likely that it WILL come into play. That's not RARE, that's just strong. However, if it's placed in the GM's deck, then the power is now a rare occurance, AND any of the players has a chance of getting it!
He's fine with it being RARE, he's not okay with only one player having a CHANCE of getting it.

Only one player has a chance of getting it because it is rare.

If it's in a player's deck, ONLY that player can get it, and with a seven card "deck" it's likely that it WILL come into play. That's not RARE, that's just strong.

That is one purpose for the player deck, isn't it?

However, if it's placed in the GM's deck, then the power is now a rare occurance, AND any of the players has a chance of getting it!

That would be an effective house rule to circumvent the problem he percieves. Just illustrating the cause of the problem, noting exactly why it arises, and observing that it's entirely intentional. You're right, that may be too focused for the present discussion.

I think the booster cards are a terrible idea, but I really want to support our FLGS so...

I told the players that if they supported the FLGS by purchasing booster packs for Gamma World, that they could assemble the decks as they wished (still limit of 2 of any card) and draw from their decks anytime a draw came up (they dont have to do the saving throw to draw GM deck vs. player deck).

Response was small at first, but since a number of our players have acquired booster packs and had a good time of it.

Along those same lines, as overpowered and gamebreaking as the PNJ or some of the other mutations/tech might be, I feel that it's intended to be that way; if the players are going to pay money they don't have to for cards that are being released in a way that I disagree with, then there is no way I'm going to tell them that they can't have them at my table.

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I think the booster cards are a terrible idea, but I really want to support our FLGS so...

I told the players that if they supported the FLGS by purchasing booster packs for Gamma World, that they could assemble the decks as they wished (still limit of 2 of any card) and draw from their decks anytime a draw came up (they dont have to do the saving throw to draw GM deck vs. player deck).

Response was small at first, but since a number of our players have acquired booster packs and had a good time of it.

Along those same lines, as overpowered and gamebreaking as the PNJ or some of the other mutations/tech might be, I feel that it's intended to be that way; if the players are going to pay money they don't have to for cards that are being released in a way that I disagree with, then there is no way I'm going to tell them that they can't have them at my table.




With how this game is set up, I have a hard time considering anything particularly overpowering, especially something that keeps a character alive.
If you do not know, the omega tech Pheonix Neural Jack allows a Pc to regain their bloodied value in hp when they drop to 0, It is a cheat death card.  Not only that, it's salvageable at 7th level.  A super science device like the PNJ is very Gamma World, but it seems just unfair for one Pc to have sole access to it.  It is a rare card after all (and we have only one as a group).  But I could see it as a card in a Dm's deck giving every player a chance to get thier hands on it.

What do you all think?

Any other player deck restrictions out there, certain cards or other restrictions on player decks?


I guess the title is missleading and would lend one to think that I am making a complaint about the PNJ card.  But truly my intend with opening this thread was too discuss possible house rules and restrictions on player decks.  But I realize that it is to early for such a disccussion with this community.  There seems to be two camps on the issue, either you like the deck and see either see attacks against the concept in a title like this thread or they despise the idea and continue to attack the concept of player decks and cards as a simple marketing tool with no role playing potential.   Boths sides are entrenched and leave little room for any disccussion.  I like thank Serow_Darkstar, even though you did not like the player deck concept your posts remained constructive and helpful.  For the rest of entrenched CCG fighters, flame on, flame on.
..,

Along those same lines, as overpowered and gamebreaking as the PNJ or some of the other mutations/tech might be, I feel that it's intended to be that way; if the players are going to pay money they don't have to for cards that are being released in a way that I disagree with, then there is no way I'm going to tell them that they can't have them at my table.



Fortunate for me I am friends with the group I game, Since we already discussed the issue they have no problem putting thier very own rare cards into a gm deck, giving all players a chance to use that rare card.

Really, the only other guy who bought cards besides me, is a competative Magic card player.  He does not view GW as a competition and has no roblem in sharing his cards with the other players, even his rare Black Ray Gun.  I think it is a mistake to assume that one has to play the Alpha and Omega tech like a competative CCG or that players will play that way.  You can play the cards as they were ment to be, a RPG supplement that enhances game play.  There is no different from the way they sell these cards from the way they sell DnD miniatures, with rares, uncommon and common minis in random packs.  But then people don't like the mini marketing either.  Well, my point being that the GW booster cards are GW rpg supplement, not a competative CCG supplement. 
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