Essentials: 4.5E in disguise or am I wrong?

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I ask this because I know this whole essentials thing got started some months ago and the coming months seems to have more in store for it... but I don't see anymore "core 4e" material coming down the pipeline.  So i'm wondering if essentials is there way of making 4.5E without calling it that.

I loved the phb1, the phb2, and at least half of the phb3 (not a fan of psionics, though thats from my old 3.5 hate of it, have yet to give it another chance).  I would have thought they'd have at least enough material for phb4 (shadow, duh) with enough classes like phb3 had.  But it seems that it's not coming anytime soon.  Content calendar shows me a lot of stuff for essentials (unless i'm just reading it wrong)

So what say you on this?
Essentials is not 4.5 more than Player's Options was 2.5

Essential's Book are not a new Editions more than the Deluxe PHB was.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

I ask this because I know this whole essentials thing got started some months ago and the coming months seems to have more in store for it... but I don't see anymore "core 4e" material coming down the pipeline.  So i'm wondering if essentials is there way of making 4.5E without calling it that.

I loved the phb1, the phb2, and at least half of the phb3 (not a fan of psionics, though thats from my old 3.5 hate of it, have yet to give it another chance).  I would have thought they'd have at least enough material for phb4 (shadow, duh) with enough classes like phb3 had.  But it seems that it's not coming anytime soon.  Content calendar shows me a lot of stuff for essentials (unless i'm just reading it wrong)

So what say you on this?

(rummaging sounds from the closet) "rollerblades.....bowling ball....VHS copy of Fletch...Has ANYONE seen my 10-Foot-Pole?"
I ask this because I know this whole essentials thing got started some months ago and the coming months seems to have more in store for it... but I don't see anymore "core 4e" material coming down the pipeline.  So i'm wondering if essentials is there way of making 4.5E without calling it that.

I loved the phb1, the phb2, and at least half of the phb3 (not a fan of psionics, though thats from my old 3.5 hate of it, have yet to give it another chance).  I would have thought they'd have at least enough material for phb4 (shadow, duh) with enough classes like phb3 had.  But it seems that it's not coming anytime soon.  Content calendar shows me a lot of stuff for essentials (unless i'm just reading it wrong)

So what say you on this?

Heroes of Shadow is for 4th Ed. It is not an Essentials product. Additionaly the Player Compendium is made to allow the Essentials and other 4th ed characters to inter-mix easier.

I'm curious what you've seen that is an Essentials product. (Though the new releases are all paperback now which is disapointing.) 
Characters currently: Abscense makes the heart grow fonder but the characters disappear.
I ask this because I know this whole essentials thing got started some months ago and the coming months seems to have more in store for it... but I don't see anymore "core 4e" material coming down the pipeline.  So i'm wondering if essentials is there way of making 4.5E without calling it that.

I loved the phb1, the phb2, and at least half of the phb3 (not a fan of psionics, though thats from my old 3.5 hate of it, have yet to give it another chance).  I would have thought they'd have at least enough material for phb4 (shadow, duh) with enough classes like phb3 had.  But it seems that it's not coming anytime soon.  Content calendar shows me a lot of stuff for essentials (unless i'm just reading it wrong)

So what say you on this?

Heroes of Shadow is for 4th Ed. It is not an Essentials product. Additionaly the Player Compendium is made to allow the Essentials and other 4th ed characters to inter-mix easier.

I'm curious what you've seen that is an Essentials product. (Though the new releases are all paperback now which is disapointing.) 

There are a couple of paperbacks upcoming and a couple of hardbacks coming as well--not sure why they aren't all one or the other though.
I ask this because I know this whole essentials thing got started some months ago and the coming months seems to have more in store for it... but I don't see anymore "core 4e" material coming down the pipeline.  So i'm wondering if essentials is there way of making 4.5E without calling it that.

I loved the phb1, the phb2, and at least half of the phb3 (not a fan of psionics, though thats from my old 3.5 hate of it, have yet to give it another chance).  I would have thought they'd have at least enough material for phb4 (shadow, duh) with enough classes like phb3 had.  But it seems that it's not coming anytime soon.  Content calendar shows me a lot of stuff for essentials (unless i'm just reading it wrong)

So what say you on this?

Heroes of Shadow is for 4th Ed. It is not an Essentials product. Additionaly the Player Compendium is made to allow the Essentials and other 4th ed characters to inter-mix easier.

I'm curious what you've seen that is an Essentials product. (Though the new releases are all paperback now which is disapointing.) 



Oh, really?  I must have been mistaken.  I heard that assassin's got an essential'd version, and supposedly I heard hexblade had turned into some sort of essential build of the warlock.  So I was under the assumption that necromancer, assassin, and hexblade were going to just be essentials classes.  Or will they be their own classes or just builds of other 4e classes?  Like a hexblade 4e warlock, or the necromancer is a shadow source wizard build?  Etc. etc.


Oh, really?  I must have been mistaken.  I heard that assassin's got an essential'd version, and supposedly I heard hexblade had turned into some sort of essential build of the warlock.  So I was under the assumption that necromancer, assassin, and hexblade were going to just be essentials classes.  Or will they be their own classes or just builds of other 4e classes?  Like a hexblade 4e warlock, or the necromancer is a shadow source wizard build?  Etc. etc.



The Hexblade is in the Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdom and is a warlock build, the Assassin is a DDi exclusive. No one knows what the Necromancer and other classes in Heroes of Shadow will be. Currently we only have 2 shadow power source classes the Assassin and the Assassin(Executioner) which is listed as Martial/Shadow.

So ummmm....really no one knows what we'll be getting. Until we get a preview of it. (Though a lot of people are saying that Essentials being part of their design paragram means it's all Essentials. I'd guess the new classes will be more like the Psionic and Essentials classes then the PH1/2 classes but well I have no idea.
Characters currently: Abscense makes the heart grow fonder but the characters disappear.
Ugh, this is so two months ago.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
I ask this because I know this whole essentials thing got started some months ago and the coming months seems to have more in store for it... but I don't see anymore "core 4e" material coming down the pipeline.  So i'm wondering if essentials is there way of making 4.5E without calling it that.

I loved the phb1, the phb2, and at least half of the phb3 (not a fan of psionics, though thats from my old 3.5 hate of it, have yet to give it another chance).  I would have thought they'd have at least enough material for phb4 (shadow, duh) with enough classes like phb3 had.  But it seems that it's not coming anytime soon.  Content calendar shows me a lot of stuff for essentials (unless i'm just reading it wrong)

So what say you on this?

(rummaging sounds from the closet) "rollerblades.....bowling ball....VHS copy of Fletch...Has ANYONE seen my 10-Foot-Pole?"



>>
<<

No.

*goes back to limboing* 
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move."-Douglas Adams
Part of the problem is that no two people seem to be able to agree on what they mean by 'Essentials'.

To WotC, 'Essentials' is ten very specific products. Which means, now those products are out, there will be no more 'Essentials' products released. In other words, WotC can truthfully say (using their own difinition) that no future products will be 'Essentials'.

To some people, 'Essentials' means those ten products plus any other product that supports any build found in those products. Using that definition is going to mean that most, if not all, future products are 'Essentials'.

To others, any product that contains builds with a similar design philosophy to 'Essentials' builds is also an 'Essentials' product. And that then opens up the additional question of what people mean by the 'Essentials design philosophy' or an 'Essentials-style build'.

Is merely being listed with a separate advancement table for each tier enough to label something an 'Essentials build'? Heroes of Sword and Spell takes several of the class builds in PHB1 and reprints them with such tables (and updated with the 2 years of errata that has come out since PHB1). There are no actual mechanical changes being made to these builds other than applying the existing errata, yet some people have taken this as 'proof' that 'Essentials' is a new edition, because it's taking existing PHB1 builds and 'Essentialising' them.

Or does a build need to get class features above level 1 to be an 'Essentials-style' build? Or does it need to lack encounter and/or daily powers? The trouble is that some of these definitions would make builds like the Mage and the Warpriest count as 'not-Essentials', which is clearly silly.

The reason this whole debate keeps going is that it's literally impossible for it ever to reach a 'right answer', because the very terms of the debate, the definitions from which people are arguing, are so fuzzy and ill-defined.

Depending on the definitions you start with, you can come to the conclusion either that "Essentials is D&D4.5 and D&D4.0 is dead and will no longer be supported", or that "Essentials is just ten products for D&D4.0 and what's the fuss all about?" and both conclusions are perfectly valid for the criteria you started from.

"My flying carpet is full of elves."


To some people, 'Essentials' means those ten products plus any other product that supports any build found in those products. Using that definition is going to mean that most, if not all, future products are 'Essentials'.


Which also raises the question, if a new book comes out with support for both, for example, if they made Arcane Power 2 and it contained new support for Wizards, Warlocks, Bards, Swordmages, Sorcerers, and Artificers, but also contained support for Mages and Hexblades(Essential Wizard and Warlock), would that be a 4E product or an Essentials product?  Different people will give you different answers to that question.

Personally, I don't think it's 4.5, because a book like the one I outlined would make perfect sense and would be called a "D&D4E Product" by WotC.  You can mix old and new material without running into any compatibility issues.    It's no more 4.5 to me than PHB2 was. 
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
Duskweaver nailed it.  He's absolutely right.

For me, I've tried to be careful when I say "Essentials".  Essentials is a 10 sku product line.  No more, and no less.  However, there are sure to be product in the future that both directly and indirectly supports content found in those 10 skus.

I do mention "Essential-style" fairly often.  Where do I draw the line?  What qualifies a build as being "Esssential-ish"?  By my judgement, it has 4 criteria:

1) Class features gained past 1st level, most of which are "upgrades" to an existing feature.  The new martial classes gain new uses of their "encounter power".  The Mage gets new and improved schools.  The Warpriest's Domain gets new functionality.

2) Tied to "1". the class features often replicate "traditional powers".  The aforementioned "encounter power" features of the martial classes.  Resurrection for the Warpriest.

3) "Locked in" builds, where a choice made a character creation, like what domain you have, determines most every feature or power you gain for the rest of your 30 levels.

4) It is presented as a "sub-class" with it's own name.  Warpriest, Mage, Knight.  Take a look at the new Character Builder.  The Warpriest isn't a Cleric build.  It's "Warpriest (Cleric)".  It's a brand new class with the "cleric" keyword.

These three related and one unrelated characteristics are what seem to be in common amongst all "Essentials" builds.  When I see them in post-Essentials products (like the Executioner Assassin), I call them "Essential-ish".
Essentials zigged, when I wanted to continue zagging. Roll dice, not cars.
Ugh, this is so two months ago.



HAND OF KARSUS!

 

 


So what say you on this?

(rummaging sounds from the closet) "rollerblades.....bowling ball....VHS copy of Fletch...Has ANYONE seen my 10-Foot-Pole?"


It'll be down the back of the sofa. That's where things usually are. Possibly even the missing 95% of the universe...
... and 'Essentialising' them...



A bit off-topic perhaps (but it's such a boring topic, no?) but I can see some sort of adventurer in the classic "the platoon"-pose, screaming "Noooooo" up to the heaves after having lost a lots of options to be replaced by locked-in features...and a Cleric of the Gaming Gods (played by Schwarzernegger, of course), speaking with austrian accent

"Yoh haf been...Essentialized!"

Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
*cough*



Ah, great minds think alike, I guess. Laughing

Great post, Duskweaver.  We can even take it a step further.  The question boils down to personal choice.  To the OP: does it matter to you, personally, whether or not people on the forum consider Essentials to represent 4.5?  How will the opinions of strangers change the way you play D&D?  Most important of all, have you looked at the Essentials material?  Is it stuff that you and your friends would like to incorporate into your game (from as little as the Wizard taking one of the new Mage powers to as much as your friend remaking his fighter using the Slayer build)?  Or do you see yourself and your friends either sticking with pre-Essentials or post-Essentials only? 

Since you did ask, here is my thoughts: Essentials is not 4.5, whatever that would even mean.  I can use anything from any Essentials product in my D&D game without altering anything.  I don't have to take my friend's fighter and "convert" him to Essentials.  WotC is still releasing material that supports older builds and classes, and I believe they will continue to do so.  Yes, they are reprinting older builds using the new presentation format, but that seems like a good thing.  Less chance for confusion when new players starting with Essentials decide to check out older builds.  This is akin to a font change; it is purely cosmetic.  There is no change to the mechanics.  Even after the reprint is released, I can still use stuff in my PHB (being mindful of errata, which is free online).
I ask this because I know this whole essentials thing got started some months ago and the coming months seems to have more in store for it... but I don't see anymore "core 4e" material coming down the pipeline.  So i'm wondering if essentials is there way of making 4.5E without calling it that.

I loved the phb1, the phb2, and at least half of the phb3 (not a fan of psionics, though thats from my old 3.5 hate of it, have yet to give it another chance).  I would have thought they'd have at least enough material for phb4 (shadow, duh) with enough classes like phb3 had.  But it seems that it's not coming anytime soon.  Content calendar shows me a lot of stuff for essentials (unless i'm just reading it wrong)

So what say you on this?



No it's not...moving on
I don't see anymore "core 4e" material coming down the pipeline.  So i'm wondering if essentials is there way of making 4.5E without calling it that.


Since "core 4e" and "4.5E" have no commonly accepted definitions, there's no way to answer this question.  It's as if you were asking "Are all future 4e releases going to be yuthan?  Because before it was ruthan, but everything coming up looks yuthan to me."

I suspect your definitions of "core 4e" and "4.5E" are going to be circular, as you seem to have decided that Essentials is "4.5" and thus you will define "4.5" to necessarily include everything that will be released for 4th edition going forward.

This further leads me to suspect that you were not looking for honest opinions -- since you didn't ask a concrete question -- but merely wanted to see how many people agree with your opinion that Essentials has ruined 4e.
I don't see anymore "core 4e" material coming down the pipeline.  So i'm wondering if essentials is there way of making 4.5E without calling it that.


Since "core 4e" and "4.5E" have no commonly accepted definitions, there's no way to answer this question.  It's as if you were asking "Are all future 4e releases going to be yuthan?  Because before it was ruthan, but everything coming up looks yuthan to me."

I suspect your definitions of "core 4e" and "4.5E" are going to be circular, as you seem to have decided that Essentials is "4.5" and thus you will define "4.5" to necessarily include everything that will be released for 4th edition going forward.

This further leads me to suspect that you were not looking for honest opinions -- since you didn't ask a concrete question -- but merely wanted to see how many people agree with your opinion that Essentials has ruined 4e.




He using logic...you know what that means.   HIS A WITCH BURN HIM!!!
(rummaging sounds from the closet) "rollerblades.....bowling ball....VHS copy of Fletch...Has ANYONE seen my 10-Foot-Pole?"



"10-Foot-Pole"? Its right there under that dead horse.

That being said the answer to this question is both yes and no, depending upon your point of view.

It has been said, in this post and others, that the "Essentials" line is a finite number of products, most (if not all) of which are already out. In my mind the term "Essentials" means that "these are the products we feel as though you need to enjoy Dungeons & Dragons." In other words if my playgroup wants to enjoy a base level D&D experience, these are the products we should have.

I think there are some distinguishable differences between the Essentials Line and much of the older 4E content, but I don't think the differences are great enough to be labeld "4.5."

So what does my instinct tell me?

There will not be a Dungeons and Dragons 4.5; when the time comes we will go straight to Level 5. Given the current state fo the economy WotC knows it would be a really bad move to simply say "thanks for buying all those old books....now you need to buy the updated versions." The Essentials Line was created to correct some of the issues with 4.0 without making 4.0 obsolete; and it was designed and marketed in such a way as to simultaneously attract new players.

2014 will be the 40th anniversary of Dungeons & Dragons, at which point I believe 5th edition will be released. I also believe that 5th edition will move back toward a model that looks a bit more like modernized version of OD&D. Time will tell.




(rummaging sounds from the closet) "rollerblades.....bowling ball....VHS copy of Fletch...Has ANYONE seen my 10-Foot-Pole?"



"10-Foot-Pole"? Its right there under that dead horse.

That being said the answer to this question is both yes and no, depending upon your point of view.

It has been said, in this post and others, that the "Essentials" line is a finite number of products, most (if not all) of which are already out. In my mind the term "Essentials" means that "these are the products we feel as though you need to enjoy Dungeons & Dragons." In other words if my playgroup wants to enjoy a base level D&D experience, these are the products we should have.

I think there are some distinguishable differences between the Essentials Line and much of the older 4E content, but I don't think the differences are great enough to be labeld "4.5."

So what does my instinct tell me?

There will not be a Dungeons and Dragons 4.5; when the time comes we will go straight to Level 5. Given the current state fo the economy WotC knows it would be a really bad move to simply say "thanks for buying all those old books....now you need to buy the updated versions." The Essentials Line was created to correct some of the issues with 4.0 without making 4.0 obsolete; and it was designed and marketed in such a way as to simultaneously attract new players.

2014 will be the 40th anniversary of Dungeons & Dragons, at which point I believe 5th edition will be released. I also believe that 5th edition will move back toward a model that looks a bit more like modernized version of OD&D. Time will tell.

I doubt WotC will wait that long to reboot all of the material.

Essentials feels more like 4.1 to me.  Same old game with more material.

But then again, maybe PHB2 was 4.1 and PHB3 was 4.2 etc.

My gut feeling is that I'm gonna be seeing stuff I've already bought (for 4e) in DDE format.  For instance, IIRC the PH1 fighter will appear in Spell & Sword as the weaponmaster.  In other words, the original books will (eventually) be obsoleted/phased out and re-formatted in the E-style.  I'm glad the 4e builds will be re-visited, even though I have the original books.

I'm willing enough to accept DDE as a fresh start for D&D.  I've already bought the DM's Kit, Monster Vault, Rules Compendium and Heroes books (just an effort to stay in the loop-- D&D is my hobby).  I even plan to buy some new stuff just to have a look-see.  For instance, the warlord is my favorite class but it didn't make the E-cut the first time around.  There is s'posed to be an E-build/subclass in the Spell & Sword compendium.

So, in my mind, Essentials is indeed a *shadow revision* (as someone put it earlier).  I don't have a problem with that.  I can skip the rehash material easily enough as long as its balanced by some new stuff.  I buy D&D books each and every month, have for years on end, a revision doesn't even slow me down these days ;).  A new direction could be exciting.  Have to wait and see.

/\ Art

/\ Art
I don't see anymore "core 4e" material coming down the pipeline.  So i'm wondering if essentials is there way of making 4.5E without calling it that.


Since "core 4e" and "4.5E" have no commonly accepted definitions, there's no way to answer this question.  It's as if you were asking "Are all future 4e releases going to be yuthan?  Because before it was ruthan, but everything coming up looks yuthan to me."

I suspect your definitions of "core 4e" and "4.5E" are going to be circular, as you seem to have decided that Essentials is "4.5" and thus you will define "4.5" to necessarily include everything that will be released for 4th edition going forward.

This further leads me to suspect that you were not looking for honest opinions -- since you didn't ask a concrete question -- but merely wanted to see how many people agree with your opinion that Essentials has ruined 4e.



Actual logical definition of what makes an n.5e would require going to the only previous example:  3e to 3.5.  Thus, in order to be 4.5, Essentials would have to overwrite previous class material entirely and be non-compatible with the previous material.
If 4.5 started when Wizards made a change to the base assumption to class dessign then 4.5 started with the Forgotten Realms book because the Swordmage was not a V build class.
Half the classes in players handbook used two different stats for their attacks, so that is a major part of 4E. When they stopped creating new classes that used two stats for attacks they went against an important tradition of 4E. 
The sea looks at the stabillity of the mountian and sighs. The mountian watches the freedom of the sea and cries.
  

No.
It is a meaningless matter of labels. 

We've been told there will be no official 4.5.  Essentials represents a significant shift in the product line, including revised class builds and changes in the underlying rules - although these changes were not as signficiant as 3E to 3.5. 

As a result, you can call it 4.5 if you want, but it does not have that label officially.  Regardless, whether you call it Essentials, 4E, 4.5 or Herbert the Pervert - the label is irrelevant.  The changes are going to be the same regardless of the label applied.
D&D & Boardgames If I have everything I need to run great games for many years without repeating stuff, why do I need to buy anything right now?
Of course Essentials isn't 4.5, and isn't a convenient marking point for 4.5 (when one includes the errata-to-date).

Essentials just marks a turning point in the game, where we have some minor design changes, some minor rule changes, more significant format changes, all with a decent-sized heap of errata.

I mean, unless your just using "4.5" in the broad sense of "where they started selling us material we already had (usually with errata), packaged with new material" - in that case, you might be getting somewhere.


Anyways, the impression I've gotten from most of the discussion I've had/seen on the topic is that "Essentials" (or just D&D at this point) is not in any way like a 4.5 because:
* The new material does not supplant existing material.
* The changes to the original rules are less significant than those in 3.5.
* The changes to the original rules are available for free, online.  [Kind of like the 3.5 SRD - but intentional.]
And most importantly:
* You can't compare it to 3.5, because 3.5 killed my parents/siblings/pets/loved ones!  How dare you make such a misguided comparison!  Tongue outWink
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
  

No.

heh heh.....yep, pretty much my thoughts too.
2014 will be the 40th anniversary of Dungeons & Dragons, at which point I believe 5th edition will be released. I also believe that 5th edition will move back toward a model that looks a bit more like modernized version of OD&D. Time will tell.



I hope not... I'd have to quit...

4E has been the best edition so far, in that the classes are equally useful from 1st to 30th. If they backtracked and made the melee classes strong at lower levels, and the magic classes stronger at higher levels, then there would be a problem...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.

He using logic...you know what that means.   HIS A WITCH BURN HIM!!!


Quick! Get the scales, and a duck!
Chandrak's awesome solutions to the 5-minute workday 'problem'
97183719 wrote:
Seeing as there is a disconnect between balance (quantifiable) and fun, (subjective and personal) discussing fun in a thread about balance because you find one system more enjoyable than another is as helpful as discussing religion in a thread about architectural engineering because you think cathedrals look prettier than outhouses.


Actual logical definition of what makes an n.5e would require going to the only previous example:  3e to 3.5.  Thus, in order to be 4.5, Essentials would have to overwrite previous class material entirely and be non-compatible with the previous material.

Mistaken because 3.0 was compatible with 3.5...it only matters that there has been a major design change in the game. 2e had its "Options" books...3e had the .5 change over...4e now has the Essentials design transfer....but this is an uncomplimentary view of 4e and Wotc...so I await the flames to come...

4e now has the Essentials design transfer....but this is an uncomplimentary view of 4e and Wotc...so I await the flames to come...

No flames here.  It does, however, confirm what I said before.  People will define ".5" in such a way as to confirm the conclusion they already decided is the truth.  People who think Essentials is "4.5" will define 4.5 to include Essentials.  People who don't will define "4.5" so that it doesn't include Essentials.

2014 will be the 40th anniversary of Dungeons & Dragons, at which point I believe 5th edition will be released. I also believe that 5th edition will move back toward a model that looks a bit more like modernized version of OD&D. Time will tell.



I hope not... I'd have to quit...

4E has been the best edition so far, in that the classes are equally useful from 1st to 30th. If they backtracked and made the melee classes strong at lower levels, and the magic classes stronger at higher levels, then there would be a problem...



Hence the "modernization" which would hopefully retain the balance of 4E while paying better homage to the D&D core concepts.

But these are just guesses on my part...don't get out the pitchforks until there is just cause to do so!

4e now has the Essentials design transfer....but this is an uncomplimentary view of 4e and Wotc...so I await the flames to come...

No flames here.  It does, however, confirm what I said before.  People will define ".5" in such a way as to confirm the conclusion they already decided is the truth.  People who think Essentials is "4.5" will define 4.5 to include Essentials.  People who don't will define "4.5" so that it doesn't include Essentials.


I personally have no issue with Essentials..just FYI and to make it clear...I looked through Monster VAult and thought it was a decent enough product...

I tend to find that there is a "different approach" to DnD somewhere in each edition as I pointed out. You can call it the "0.5" edition..or not. It does not matter.  It is there and Essentials is the "different approach" for this edition(it is not good, it is not bad, it just is)...or I hope it is, becasue imagine the hell that will break loose if it is not and there is something bigger adn more different coming from WotC....

I Went Down, Down, Down 
And The Flames Went Higher 

And It Burns, Burns, Burns

....

KEEP IT DOWN I'M TRYING TO ENJOY BEING ALIVE BEFORE I HAVE TO GO TO HELL 

"Lost? Confused? Lacking direction? Need to find a purpose in your life?"

     -Welcome to Night Vale Proverb

imagine the hell that will break loose if it is not and there is something bigger adn more different coming from WotC....

Meh.  I've been through the edition wars and the essentials wars.  It would not surprise me it WotC plans a change up every two years.  Two years seems to be when an edition begins to lose steam.  Then you can coast along with a skeleton staff and putting out supplements of decreasing utility or you change things up.

Pathfinder came out with its Advanced Guides and Wizards with Essentials.  Look for another change up from both companies in 2012.

the answer is no
I doubt WotC will wait that long to reboot all of the material.

Essentials feels more like 4.1 to me.  Same old game with more material.

But then again, maybe PHB2 was 4.1 and PHB3 was 4.2 etc.

This.  4e has been under constant revision.

It's not not like we went from 4 -> Essentials.

We went 4 -> 4.errata -> 4.errata2 -> 4.PHB2 -> 4.PHB2.errata -> ... -> 4.PHB3.PowerBook5.DarkSun.errata2 -> 4.Essentials.

So, weather that's 4.5 or not, depends on how you count.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

It's not not like we went from 4 -> Essentials.

We went 4 -> 4.errata -> 4.errata2 -> 4.PHB2 -> 4.PHB2.errata -> ... -> 4.PHB3.PowerBook5.DarkSun.errata2 -> 4.Essentials.

So, weather that's 4.5 or not, depends on how you count.


 
  I think there are enough changes to gameplay including entire system overhauls that it doesn't feel like an incremental change to many.  Magic item daily usage, magic item rarity, feat restrictions being dropped etc.  I'd on the fence about class complexity.  While the new melee classes are certainly not stamped from the same mould all the others were and we were expecting they would be, PHB3 classes deviate somewhat from previous classes so the new complexity changes aren't entirely a new direction.

@mikemearls don't quite understand the difference

I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down. - Eric Cartman

Enough chitchat!  Time is candy! - Pinky Pie