Will WOTC fix anything this week?

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So the bug-ridden craptastic CB got released last week. Will the nimble team fix ANY of the problems this week or are they already on vacation?
So the bug-ridden craptastic CB got released last week. Will the nimble team fix ANY of the problems this week or are they already on vacation?



I am leaning heavily that we will not see an update for a long time. Maybe they are abandoning this one to for another new builder, one that works on the C-64
They already tried to fix things once and it screwed it up even worse. They had to roll back the patch.

No, for once I actually think they're being smart and taking some time to develop a solution that will work. A rush job is what got us into this mess in the first place.

What would be really nice though is if they made some kind of announcement regarding the state of the builder. Something along the lines of "sorry it sucks, bear with us while we fix it." Heck, at this point I'd even take "the builder is fine, leave us alone." All we're getting is silence here and I'm starting to feel that they just don't care.
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They already tried to fix things once and it screwed it up even worse. They had to roll back the patch.

No, for once I actually think they're being smart and taking some time to develop a solution that will work. A rush job is what got us into this mess in the first place.

What would be really nice though is if they made some kind of announcement regarding the state of the builder. Something along the lines of "sorry it sucks, bear with us while we fix it." Heck, at this point I'd even take "the builder is fine, leave us alone." All we're getting is silence here and I'm starting to feel that they just don't care.



So the mounds of things they told us wouldn't be in at launch but that they'd be adding after isn't enough communication?

The fact they patched it, broke some stuff and took back the patch isn't evidence enough they're working on fixing it?

Give me a break. 
They already tried to fix things once and it screwed it up even worse. They had to roll back the patch.

No, for once I actually think they're being smart and taking some time to develop a solution that will work. A rush job is what got us into this mess in the first place.

What would be really nice though is if they made some kind of announcement regarding the state of the builder. Something along the lines of "sorry it sucks, bear with us while we fix it." Heck, at this point I'd even take "the builder is fine, leave us alone." All we're getting is silence here and I'm starting to feel that they just don't care.



So the mounds of things they told us wouldn't be in at launch but that they'd be adding after isn't enough communication?

The fact they patched it, broke some stuff and took back the patch isn't evidence enough they're working on fixing it?

Give me a break. 



Patch? you redownload the entire application each time they change it (13MB+). They communicated at the start, but now they are just kind of not saying anything...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.

So the mounds of things they told us wouldn't be in at launch but that they'd be adding after isn't enough communication?

The fact they patched it, broke some stuff and took back the patch isn't evidence enough they're working on fixing it?

Give me a break. 


No, it's not enough communication.

They told us a bunch of stuff wouldn't be in the launch. Fine. However, as it turns out there is a bunch more stuff that isn't in the launch that they didn't tell us about. They've said nothing about this.

We found out that they basically lied to us months ago when they said that DS and Essentials couldn't be loaded into the old builder. They've said nothing about that.

Tons of folks on this forum have been griping about the builder's obvious shortcomings for a week straight. They've said nothing about that, either.

Oh, and a security flaw in their app allows anyone who is so inclined full access to their database of game elements. No word on that either.

I'm not asking them to come down so I can throw rotten tomatoes and call them nasty names. I just would like an announcement to the effect that they acknowledge what is going on. That they recognize that a lot of us are unhappy and want to try and make things better. That's all I ask. "Yes, we screwed up. Sorry." Is that really being unreasonable?
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No, it's not enough communication.

They told us a bunch of stuff wouldn't be in the launch. Fine. However, as it turns out there is a bunch more stuff that isn't in the launch that they didn't tell us about. They've said nothing about this.

We found out that they basically lied to us months ago when they said that DS and Essentials couldn't be loaded into the old builder. They've said nothing about that.

Tons of folks on this forum have been griping about the builder's obvious shortcomings for a week straight. They've said nothing about that, either.

Oh, and a security flaw in their app allows anyone who is so inclined full access to their database of game elements. No word on that either.

I'm not asking them to come down so I can throw rotten tomatoes and call them nasty names. I just would like an announcement to the effect that they acknowledge what is going on. That they recognize that a lot of us are unhappy and want to try and make things better. That's all I ask. "Yes, we screwed up. Sorry." Is that really being unreasonable?


This.  SO much.  I can live with a crappy CB.  I have the old one.  And apparently, though I've not found out reliably how to use it or how safe it is (particularly, I don't want to risk breaking the install *shudder*), there is a tool available to update it to include the content I think I have decided to continue to pay to access, at least for another month - the compendium.

What I find much, MUCH more difficult to live with is the fact that WOTC seem to have taken up a stance of clammed-up silence WRT the outright crappiness of the OCB.  We started hearing things shortly before release from Trevor (which I appreciated a lot), but since that time we've heard next to nothing from the staff - other than 'there's a server issue, we're trying to fix it'.  Oh, and announcing the release of another tool (which I personally don't much care about, since I got into D&D to play alongside real people, not online), which I can only presume will eat into the dev team's time on fixing their mistakes.

What I'd like is honesty and transparency in communication.  An update of the Known Issues List (AsmodeusLore has done the freaking work already, just have someone copy and format it, and upload it).  A patch log or change tracker so we know people are trying to fix their mistakes.  An announcement that yes, this is actually a public beta, not a release-worthy product.  A public apology to all subscribers for rushing the release of a product which is HUGELY flawed to the point of basic rules mechanics that anyone who's played for even a short time would know about being missing (Holy Symbol slot, I'm looking at you - well, actually I'm not, and therein lies the problem.  Mage at-wills, you too).  An announcement that refunds are available for people who are unsatisfied with the service.  An announcement that refunds will be automatic.  The announcement that whoever made these awful decisions is not letting the door hit them on the way out.  These are in descending order of likelihood, you understand.

We're a community of geeks, technically-minded and intelligent for the most part - and most of us would have been more than willing I suspect, to take part in a properly-managed beta test.  We're being treated extremely poorly.  At best, there has been a LOT of ill-advised miscommunication.  At worst, there has been outright malicious lying from various levels of staff (and no, I'm not going to name specific incidents, nor do I think anyone else should.   But recent developments in both the online and offline CBs seem to show worrying things).

So, to summarise: WOTC - please start treating us like valued customers, or even, *gasp* community members, equals.  Or I, for one, will cease to be a customer come 2011.  I think this would be a terrible shame after only two months, when I fully intended to continue subscribing indefinitely when I joined.

To answer the OP: I'm not holding out much hope.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.

If you have not learned from all the past Wizards of the Coast is unable to communicate properly with its customer base.


I still subscribe, though I quit at one point over it. I still buy their products and I still play their games but I think they are down right terrible when it comes to customer service or communcation with us.  I am sure Trevor has his hands tied behind his back on this from the powers that be and I would hate to be in his shoes.


They are making poor business decisions plain and simple.


I have always looks at other companies products and marveled at when they did with the old 3.5 OGL. I will not say their name because everyone and their uncle says they would rather play that as an alternative. I mean they have PDF's of all their product, they have lovely looking books with great artwork. They are also not afraid to communicate with their audience. On the other hand it is 3.5 and I personally do not look back now that I have gotten my players to switch over to 4e and Essentials.


Wizards of the coast has some good looking products, lacking on the art a bit as of late but that is far as this comparison can go.


Wizards of the Coast is hampering themselves and I suspect is has to do with the parent company Hasbro. I am sure that is where they get this mentality of we will keep taking it in the chin, though I do believe some in upper management have probably sipped from the whatever they are drinking all the way at the top and actually believe there is no alternative to the D&D machine.


It is really unforgivable. Though I am a bit more realistic in my thinking in that I am hooked and will keep paying for this punishment because my gaming group has its say and right now they want 4th edition and nothing else. Honestly I spent so much cash with them its like cutting off a leg or arm and even a divorce. Hmm I wonder if I could take them to court and sue for a divorce settlement? LOL Laughing

you can use your mouse scroll wheel to well scroll the pages... other then that havent seen any fixes...
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They already tried to fix things once and it screwed it up even worse. They had to roll back the patch.

No, for once I actually think they're being smart and taking some time to develop a solution that will work. A rush job is what got us into this mess in the first place.

What would be really nice though is if they made some kind of announcement regarding the state of the builder. Something along the lines of "sorry it sucks, bear with us while we fix it." Heck, at this point I'd even take "the builder is fine, leave us alone." All we're getting is silence here and I'm starting to feel that they just don't care.



So the mounds of things they told us wouldn't be in at launch but that they'd be adding after isn't enough communication?



You mean the stuff that the builder is 100% capable of doing via the debug menu?  IE, the features are added, but they are withheld from you deliberately.  They serve you a **** sandwich, and you go "hey I wanted a ham and cheese sandwich!"  So then they put cheese on your **** sandwich and get to be heroes.  "Sure it has fewer features, but look how fast they added export and inherent bonuses!  They love us!"

They're lying to you again, and you're lapping it up.


You mean the stuff that the builder is 100% capable of doing via the debug menu?  IE, the features are added, but they are withheld from you deliberately.  They serve you a **** sandwich, and you go "hey I wanted a ham and cheese sandwich!"  So then they put cheese on your **** sandwich and get to be heroes.  "Sure it has fewer features, but look how fast they added export and inherent bonuses!  They love us!"

They're lying to you again, and you're lapping it up.



took the words out of my mouth had thay been there.

+1

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If you have not learned from all the past Wizards of the Coast is unable to communicate properly with its customer base.

So the mounds of things they told us wouldn't be in at launch but that they'd be adding after isn't enough communication?
The fact they patched it, broke some stuff and took back the patch isn't evidence enough they're working on fixing it?
Give me a break. 

No, it's not enough communication.
I would like an announcement to the effect that they acknowledge what is going on.
"Yes, we screwed up. Sorry." Is that really being unreasonable?



Guys guys guys. You're forgetting a few things.



Question: Will the web-based tools be updated more often? 
Answer: Now  that the studio is not split in two anymore - trying to support legacy  and new development - we plan to have an aggressive feature update  schedule. I can't promise that updates will be more frequent than  monthly, but they won't be purely content.



Question: Why was the call made to release this version of the tool when not  everything is up and running compared to the currently working character  builder?
Answer: Good question. Essentials  content was a very hard fit into the Character Builder Classic and we  really wanted to get it out as soon as we could. With the plan for more  frequent feature updates, we felt that we could ship something working  well - but lacking a few features - now, as opposed to something working  completely later.




 


And I felt its also relevant to quote AsmodeusLore's comment on the VTT integration functionality, which rings true for all the D&D Digital Studios tool releases:


That almost certainly won't be available at launch.
Integration with other tools is something they want to do, but have decided to put off for now in order to get a working product out the door. speed + simplicity is the order of the day.

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I understand that. I am a paying customer and I am not going anywhere, where WotC is standing they are unable to communicate timely information or sometimes it looks like they are afraid to and they will not move from where they are standing or it looks like they have and then they quickly run back and hide.


Not having a product 100% functional only draws out more venom from this crowd.


For instance, the Mage not being able to pick from all the other at-will wizard spells without us doing a workaround is not acceptable.


To me is seems they have this new moto, get it out the door we can fix it later as evidenced by the Red Box no longer even being correct without heavy erratta, the new monthly erratta or revisions of the game rules, lets get the new character builder going even though we know it does not have everything the players want or need. I mean they missed half of this season for Encounters for letting players get rewards for making essentials characters on the character builder. To add insult to injury the new books come out on the new builders launch day and they are still not in the builder.


Having all the core essentials characters available would have been better than half.


Now lets get the VT out with it missing a key important part, working with the other online tools we are developing. I was on the side of they made this announcement of a beta at the right time, now I think it was a rush job to get us off guard and stop us from complaining about the CB.


It seems like chaos to me, and the chicken has had its head lopped off by a Githyanki Silvered Vorpal over there at the Wizards offices.

Integration, in my mind, will be easier to implement if all the tools are under the same basic programing paragon. Having everything use Silverlight will make it work together better than having to puzzle pieces together with radically different programs.

That they actually addressed this as "not right now, everything needs to be quick" does not bode well for the future, but when this current team is fired (like what must have happened to those that created the CBC), the ease of integration will be a factor.
Terms you should know...
Show
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner) Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level. Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds. Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
ha ha
56902498 wrote:
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2. The new sub-sub-classes will be: * Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks. * Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank. * Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture. * Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things. * Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind. Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2). These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing. (Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
There's been no indication that folks have lost their jobs at D&D Digital Studios. New development team members would likely be an addition to the the team, as historically they've shown a dire need for additional man-hours-per-month to get the content out and also release new tools.
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There's been no indication that folks have lost their jobs at D&D Digital Studios.



It's not December yet.
There's been no indication that folks have lost their jobs at D&D Digital Studios. New development team members would likely be an addition to the the team, as historically they've shown a dire need for additional man-hours-per-month to get the content out and also release new tools.



It's not December yet.



I feel confident in the OCB and the new online set of tools. Don't you?
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For instance, the Mage not being able to pick from all the other at-will wizard spells without us doing a workaround is not acceptable.





It works fine.  You just click the "Show Additional Options" toggle button at the top of the At-Will list, and it shows all available wizard spells, not just Mage ones.

For instance, the Mage not being able to pick from all the other at-will wizard spells without us doing a workaround is not acceptable.





It works fine.  You just click the "Show Additional Options" toggle button at the top of the At-Will list, and it shows all available wizard spells, not just Mage ones.



No it does not. When you check that box it should list ALL at-will's for Wizards from all books from the PH1 and Arcane Power etc. It currently does not.
Integration, in my mind, will be easier to implement if all the tools are under the same basic programing paragon. Having everything use Silverlight will make it work together better than having to puzzle pieces together with radically different programs.

That they actually addressed this as "not right now, everything needs to be quick" does not bode well for the future, but when this current team is fired (like what must have happened to those that created the CBC), the ease of integration will be a factor.



However, according to the info resleas on the VT, its on Java.
Question: Why was the call made to release this version of the tool  when not  everything is up and running compared to the currently working  character  builder?
Answer: Good question.  Essentials  content  was a very hard fit into the Character Builder Classic...



Funny that you should quote the biggest, baldfaced, and most provably false lie WotC has told to us.  Essentials Classes are substantially EASIER to plug into the classic CB, requiring ZERO new programming.  The data entry is vastly simpler as well, with far fewer powers to worry about.

Modders have the Essentials classes working in the old CB... yes, all of them, including the second book (which the new CB doesn't even have yet.)  Dark Sun Themes were added in the last patch, but were deliberately disabled to prevent us access to them.

They're lying to us.
MMMMMMMMMMMAN you're a negative nelly lol. I looked at a few of your threads. I've never seen a bigger naysayer than you, and considering the folks that frequent these forums, that is saying something Wink

I'm not on anyones side, but I have my opinions (i like the cb design, and the compendium and new VRT both look great) and I like sharing the facts.
We like facts, and friendliness. Naysaying and trolling isn't effective communication; I want you to be heard too.

 You should respectfully submit these opinions to a more official thread, ask for your ideas/questions to be responded to by wotc staff who can shed some light on their side of the Damon_Tor fence. Send a pm to AsmodeusLore and WotC_Trevor or something. 
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I'm not on anyones side, but I have my opinions (i like the cb design, and the compendium and new VRT both look great) and I like sharing the facts.
We like facts, and friendliness. Naysaying and trolling isn't effective communication; I want you to be heard too.



I love facts

Fact: Essentials characters needed no special programming, and their data entry is much simpler than classes with powers at each level.  This is evidenced by the fact that people have done it, quickly and easily.

Fact: Dark Sun themes (the only new game-element type in dark sun) were already added to the character builder, but were simply switched off.  Modders simply needed to delete the few lines of text disabling them and finish data entry.

This isn't some innane conspiracy theory, these are facts with hard evidence.  I've seen the code, both the original and what the modders have made.

I'm not an unfriendly guy, but I take being lied to very personally.  6 months ago I was defending WotC, and I've been a subcriber for more than a year now.  I was at one point a happy customer, paying for products I could have easily pirated because that's the kind of guy I am.  I value honesty.  It's why I'm taking this like I am: I played straight with WotC and they lied to me.
Gonna have to agree with Damon on this. Saying that Essentials data is a hard fit for the old Character Builder is provably false. Now, it may have been a lie, a mistake, or an omission, but the one thing that we absolutely know it was not is the truth.
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You mean the stuff that the builder is 100% capable of doing via the debug menu?  IE, the features are added, but they are withheld from you deliberately.  



I'm not sure that's the case. I think it's more likely the processing engine is exactly the same as the offline character builder so those features are already there (hence they work by the debug). It's just for the last six months they have been working on a new User Interface. That new user interface of the online character builder, doesn't have a way to talk to those features as yet. I don't think they were deliberately left off, more they didn't release they were important, and had them at a low priority. 

Because they have never actually done any survey's or gathered data on how people were using the older builder or did any research before starting work on the new builder interface, or did any beta testing. You the sort of stuff professional software developers would do.

"Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence" - generally attributed to Napoleon Bonaparte

Funny that you should quote the biggest, baldfaced, and most provably false lie WotC has told to us.  Essentials Classes are substantially EASIER to plug into the classic CB, requiring ZERO new programming.  The data entry is vastly simpler as well, with far fewer powers to worry about.

Modders have the Essentials classes working in the old CB... yes, all of them, including the second book (which the new CB doesn't even have yet.)  Dark Sun Themes were added in the last patch, but were deliberately disabled to prevent us access to them.



What about GUI and presentation? Was this also included and disabled? I'm not familiar with the insides of CB, but I'd imagine that displaying the new Essentials class builds, even if the data was correctly plugged inside, might be non-trivial. After all, the class entries in the Compendium are still a bit of a mess...

My blog about 4e rules and news: Square Fireballs The Magic Item Reset: A standalone set of items for 4E

What about GUI and presentation? Was this also included and disabled? I'm not familiar with the insides of CB, but I'd imagine that displaying the new Essentials class builds, even if the data was correctly plugged inside, might be non-trivial. After all, the class entries in the Compendium are still a bit of a mess...


Both character builders use an XML database that contains a list of all the elements, such as classes, races, powers, etc. The program itself pulls that data out and plugs it into the UI for the user to pick from. In the case of classes, the data also tells the program when to grant a power selection and what powers are valid choices at that time.

So, no, it's entirely trivial. I'd imagine you could custom-build a class that gave a daily, encounter, and at-will selection at every level, or one that gave no power selections at all a la the fighter of previous editions, and both would work equally well.

Note, however, that Wizard and Mage (Wizard) have to be listed as seperate classes, even if they share game elements. But sharing those elements between classes isn't hard. Heck, you could give wizard at-wills to every class if you wanted to. And anyway that's how the new builder lists them as well, because they use an almost identical database.

The only case where you'd have a bit of trouble is if you are adding an entirely new gameplay element, like power points. Then the GUI has to add a way to display it. But adding a new type of an existing element is really easy.
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Mother Nature has seen fit to weight in on the debate and smack WotC with a snowstorm. Couple that with the holiday this week and I am pretty sure we will get no communication until next week.

You should respectfully submit these opinions to a more official thread, ask for your ideas/questions to be responded to by wotc staff who can shed some light on their side of the Damon_Tor fence. Send a pm to AsmodeusLore and WotC_Trevor or something. 


That would only work if WOTC ever responded to such posts. You're giving WOTC way too much credit for communicating with its customers.

As for Damon-Tor, his posts reflect the feeling of at least 90% of the users posting on this forum since mid-November.

Granted, while I made a few negative posts myself, my main avenue of satisfaction was to request a refund from WOTC, and I was very pleased with their customer service. If December fails to deliver any significant improvements to the OCB, then I'll make another refund request.
They're lying to us.



Interesting theory. There is only one hole in it: Motive. There is no motive unless they hate you and want to piss you off.

I'm just saying you might want to adjust the tin foil hat. I think the alien transmissions are leaking in.
I'm not giving them credit, I'm just encouraging that we promote good communication between us and them.
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To wit: There is no reason to ascribe malice when simple incompitence will suffice.
You should respectfully submit these opinions to a more official thread, ask for your ideas/questions to be responded to by wotc staff who can shed some light on their side of the Damon_Tor fence. Send a pm to AsmodeusLore and WotC_Trevor or something. 


That would only work if WOTC ever responded to such posts. You're giving WOTC way too much credit for communicating with its customers.

As for Damon-Tor, his posts reflect the feeling of at least 90% of the users posting on this forum since mid-November.



Which is exactly the problem. Most people don't get on the boards to blast someone. This is another case of the general 80/20 law. Eighty percent of the complaints come from twenty percent of the people. Yet, game companies, in general, only listen to the twenty percent and think it is all of us. More times than not, I have found my gaming ruined because of this kind of ranting. Whether someone is upset or not is not the question. I actually think EVERYONE has a RIGHT to be upset. It is not whether you are angry/upset or not, it is what you choose to do with it.

What I would like to see, but which will never happen, is more communication from the general public. I don't use DDI for only the CB. That is, in my opinion, rediculous. The industry is changing, the game is changing. The Dungeon and Dragon e-zines are valuable content. I use the Monster Builder to make slightly different monsters for my players to keep the game fresh and unlease the unexpected. Personally, I really don't give a fart what they do with their products, they own them. The biggest statement we can make is to cancel subscription. Okay, then don't rant on the boards and potentially turn away people that may be satisfied with a product just because you are not.

The reality is, some people don't care about it in the same way you do, oh, and that includes me. And while, certainly, your opinion has value, vomitting garbage at a company that is trying to be moderately helpful, even if they fail, doesn't really contribute to the situation. Can't we all try and be constructive. There were some posts that said, I will give it two months and with no significant improvements, I will cancel. Those are actually GOOD POSTS.

My two cents. Flame if you want, I don't mind.
Lots of good stuff.



In support of that, I refer you to my signature. +1
IMAGE(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/34560363/EV%20Signatures/vtrpg-signature-foxx2.png)
They're lying to us.



Interesting theory. There is only one hole in it: Motive. There is no motive unless they hate you and want to piss you off.

I'm just saying you might want to adjust the tin foil hat. I think the alien transmissions are leaking in.



Motive: they wanted an excuse to not update the old CB with Dark Sun and Essentials.  "We are deliberately withholding this data to help force a change to the new CB" wouldn't have gone over very well.

I'm not sure how you could see what we've seen and not come to the conclusion that they lied.  Dark sun was done, Essentials needed no extra work.  How does this not make "Adding Dark Sun and Essentials to th old CB was too hard." a lie?

There's plenty of incompetance, don't get me wrong.  I forgive incompetance (the only reason I've been a customer as long as I have).  It doesn't mean they aren't also liars.
Can't we all try and be constructive. There were some posts that said, I will give it two months and with no significant improvements, I will cancel. Those are actually GOOD POSTS.



That's what my posts looked like ~2 months ago, when the CB update was already late and the magazine articles were becoming more and more worthless.

How long would you like us to threaten to cancel our accounts for?

If WotC had simply been incompetant, as many like to think, I would have simply canceled by accout and let things be.  It is clear, to me, that they lied to us.  As such, I feel it's by duty to let people know that they're being conned.

So, I'll keep posting, thanks.  The more I post, the more people see what I have to say, and some fraction of those people will check it out for themselves.  I'm doing my part by creating as much bad buzz as I can.

This is another case of the general 80/20 law.



You're probably right.  The 20% that knows we've been lied to wants to educate the 80% that haven't figured it out yet.  I dearly hope it costs WotC enough business to make them reevaluate their business ethics.

You're probably right.  The 20% that knows we've been lied to wants to educate the 80% that haven't figured it out yet.  I dearly hope it costs WotC enough business to make them reevaluate their business ethics.


This is priceless.  You want to educate me on why I shouldn't like the new character builder?  Or why I shouldn't value all the time the compendium saves me?  Or beat it into my head that I've been lied to?  Do you really think that has value to me?  Do you really think the 80% cares about these forums at all?

This 'debate' has been about perception from the very beginning.  Those that perceive that they have been wronged in some way, and those that don't.  You want everyone to agree with you.  Sure, I get that.  We all want that.

You're probably right.  The 20% that knows we've been lied to wants to educate the 80% that haven't figured it out yet.  I dearly hope it costs WotC enough business to make them reevaluate their business ethics.


This is priceless.  You want to educate me on why I shouldn't like the new character builder?  Or why I shouldn't value all the time the compendium saves me?  Or beat it into my head that I've been lied to?  Do you really think that has value to me?  Do you really think the 80% cares about these forums at all?

This 'debate' has been about perception from the very beginning.  Those that perceive that they have been wronged in some way, and those that don't.  You want everyone to agree with you.  Sure, I get that.  We all want that.



I cannot tell if you're being intentionally obtuse, or whether you just didn't take time to read the post you quoted.  I'll assume the former. 

I have read many of Damon Tor's recent posts, and do not recall him telling anyone to dislike the CB, but maybe I just missed it.  No matter though, because in the post to which you respond, Damon Tor has made no claims regarding anyone's like/dislike of the character builder.  Nor the compendium. So your questions are without merit; argumentative. 

I see his point plain as day:

1. We have been lied to by WotC.  (I have not checked any of his claims, but if it is true that Dark Sun material was already programmed into--, but disabled from functiong in the-- CBClassic, then how would you describe Wizards' statement regarding the difficulty of fitting that information in?  True?  Obviously not!). 

2. He wants to share his discovery (that the CBC can be easily updated with the very information that WotC claims was responsible for the delivery delay) with the community.  He even makes no claim as to how we should interpret this information, only stating that he wants to educate people, and I for one, appreciate that. 

3. Clearly he does have an agenda, and admitted as much: he wants it (lying to customers) to cost WotC some money.  I do NOT share that vision, but that doesn't mean that I want to live in ignorance. 

So give the guy a break.  He has made a startling discovery and just wants to share it with the community.  I know the downer attitude can be a drag, but clearly he loves D&D, or else this wouldn't be so upsetting to him.  

Oh, and to actually address the topic: As others have stated (and as Trevor posted in another forum) don't expect many fixes this week.  We got snow in Seattle, and it basically paralyzed the entire city!  I couldn't make it to work at all yesterday, and barely made it in today.  Nobody else is here though, so I have a little time to post. ;)

You're probably right.  The 20% that knows we've been lied to wants to educate the 80% that haven't figured it out yet.  I dearly hope it costs WotC enough business to make them reevaluate their business ethics.


This is priceless.  You want to educate me on why I shouldn't like the new character builder?  Or why I shouldn't value all the time the compendium saves me?  Or beat it into my head that I've been lied to?  Do you really think that has value to me?  Do you really think the 80% cares about these forums at all?

This 'debate' has been about perception from the very beginning.  Those that perceive that they have been wronged in some way, and those that don't.  You want everyone to agree with you.  Sure, I get that.  We all want that.



I cannot tell if you're being intentionally obtuse, or whether you just didn't take time to read the post you quoted.  I'll assume the former. 

I have read many of Damon Tor's recent posts, and do not recall him telling anyone to dislike the CB, but maybe I just missed it.  So your questions are without merit; argumentative. 



Not to discount the rest of your post, which was quite well reasoned, but I think you're being obtuse yourself here. You've responded to his argument based on one sentence, "You want to educate me on why I shouldn't like the new character builder?" and you've ignored his key point. I'll say it again, because it's a good one. 

This 'debate' has been about perception from the very beginning.  Those that perceive that they have been wronged in some way, and those that don't. 

80% of users either don't perceive the wronging, or if they do know they either don't care or they're willing to forgive WotC and move on.
IMAGE(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/34560363/EV%20Signatures/vtrpg-signature-foxx2.png)



2. He wants to share his discovery (that the CBC can be easily updated with the very information that WotC claims was responsible for the delivery delay) with the community.  He even makes no claim as to how we should interpret this information, only stating that he wants to educate people, and I for one, appreciate that. 





Well, I used the resources I could find, and I have successfully updated my CBC to use Dark Sun, and it took me all of 5 minutes.


Not to discount the rest of your post, which was quite well reasoned, but I think you're being obtuse yourself here. You've responded to his argument based on one sentence, "You want to educate me on why I shouldn't like the new character builder?" and you've ignored his key point. I'll say it again, because it's a good one. 

This 'debate' has been about perception from the very beginning.  Those that perceive that they have been wronged in some way, and those that don't. 

80% of users either don't perceive the wronging, or if they do know they either don't care or they're willing to forgive WotC and move on.



Given your assumptions of my reason for posting, I can see why you would call me obtuse.  However, that is not the case.  (at least, I don't think I'm obtuse Wink)

I was NOT responding to your bolded argument at all.  That is an incorrect assumption!

In fact, my only point was that the questions posed by Hametsuj were argumentative and baseless. 

To illustrate that point, I attempted to explain Damon Tor's stance (as I see it).  I felt compelled to do so, because I don't want to see him (or others who may bring bad news) chased off of these boards.  I really appreciate having all the facts so I can make an informed decision, even though I do not share in the hope of financially hurting WotC. 

Also, please note that I suggested Hametsuj was being intentionally obtuse.  Which I think is still true.  It is my beliefe that he understands perfectly what Damon Tor means, but instead of choosing to argue with facts, resorted to asking rhetorical questions.  In fact the only clear point made in the post by Hametsuj is that he just doesn't care what Damon Tor has to say. 

Another fact, I actually agree with your point!  This debate is all about perception.  Though I would say that there exists another faction  in the 80/20 breakdown that neither of the two main groups are aware of: People like me, who do perceive being "wronged" are in the 20% group, but since we still choose to support D&D with our purchases, and usually say nothing on the boards, we are not contributing to 80% of the complaining. 

I am EXACTLY the customer that WotC targeted with Essentials, and am actually quite pleased with that product line.  But just because I don't complain a lot on the forums does not mean that I am OK with what is going on here.  I could go on and on, but will save you all the whining explanation.