I am sorry, but this must be a joke.

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So, full of hope, I loaded up the shiny new character builder.  I decided to build my tempest fighter in my current game in the new builder. What an almighty mess. Where are the off-hand weapons?  Where are the conditional modifiers for AC and the other saves? Where are all the features I had in the old character builder?  Is everybody on drugs? How on earth can a group of professionals manage to put out this crap with a straight face to paying customers?

Mad Scientist
From someone who knows: Welcome to applications development.

Things aren't fine straight away, there WILL be bugs, there WILL be problems, and you WILL have to deal with it, or simply not use it.

It's been out 1 day.  (Not even that)

Be patient. If this is STILL a problem in a few months, THEN you have a reason to complain.
From someone who knows: Welcome to applications development.

Things aren't fine straight away, there WILL be bugs, there WILL be problems, and you WILL have to deal with it, or simply not use it.

It's been out 1 day.  (Not even that)

Be patient. If this is STILL a problem in a few months, THEN you have a reason to complain.

No.

In a word.

This software is clearly not even at Beta stages yet and we are being asked to pay to use it instead of the existing software which, though clunky, had the features atrociousDM is complaining about not having in its replacement at launch.
When anyone could check it out for free in Demo mode to make sure it did.

ΦΦΦΦΦ
From someone who knows: Welcome to applications development.

Things aren't fine straight away, there WILL be bugs, there WILL be problems, and you WILL have to deal with it, or simply not use it.

It's been out 1 day.  (Not even that)

Be patient. If this is STILL a problem in a few months, THEN you have a reason to complain.



I'm a developer also. But what WotC delivered is

They already had a CB application out there. So this set the bar. How can you expect paying customers to take something they had with say 100 features and trade it in for an application with 50 features.

Think of it this way. The bank owns your house. Your making payments. What if they said we are sorry, we need to move you to a new house. You will continue to pay you same amount for your mortgage.

Now you get into your new house. What? No bathroom, no kitchen, no door to enter, I need to climb threw a window. Hey what about a roof? I'm getting wet when it rains.

Don't worry, these are minor things we will fix over the coming months. You just keep paying your mortgage though. Oh, if you don't like it. Stop paying and leave.
I am sorry, but I am not in the business of applications development, I am in the business of paying for a service. WotC's problems in developing an application are none of my concern. I am just expecting that they take the appropriate steps to ensure that the customer does not get their service reduced due to these problems, you know, being professional about these things? This looks like some bloody BSc project at the moment.
Mad Scientist
You're all acting as if the old character builder is no longer working.

Extending the "House" analogy above, it's like being told "This other house will eventually be your house, we're working on it, but if you want to move in now you can."

Ok, I FULLY admit that my suggestion of "months" was very much off.  I was looking too long into the distance.  Basically, it's up to WotC to roll out updates quickly, which they have the ability to do with an online app.  THAT is what we should be watching, rather than precisely what it's like right now, on launch-day.  Every app is pretty bad on launch.
You're all acting as if the old character builder is no longer working.

Extending the "House" analogy above, it's like being told "This other house will eventually be your house, we're working on it, but if you want to move in now you can."

Ok, I FULLY admit that my suggestion of "months" was very much off.  I was looking too long into the distance.  Basically, it's up to WotC to roll out updates quickly, which they have the ability to do with an online app.  THAT is what we should be watching, rather than precisely what it's like right now, on launch-day.  Every app is pretty bad on launch.



The old CB does still work. But it never recieved those much anticipated updates, like Dark Sun. And even MB was left abandoned on the side of the road. It hasn't recieved an updated since August when they broke it completely.

If WotC does not want to support the old CB then make the code available so REAL developers who care about the game can fix the issue's in it as well as the code for MB.

We would fix it out of love for the game itself.


If WotC does not want to support the old CB then make the code available so REAL developers who care about the game can fix the issue's in it as well as the code for MB.

We would fix it out of love for the game itself.



There's unfortunately probably business reasons why they won't do this for a long time.

I don't LIKE that they won't, as I would love this just as much as you, but I UNDERSTAND why they won't. 
You're all acting as if the old character builder is no longer working.

Extending the "House" analogy above, it's like being told "This other house will eventually be your house, we're working on it, but if you want to move in now you can."

Ok, I FULLY admit that my suggestion of "months" was very much off.  I was looking too long into the distance.  Basically, it's up to WotC to roll out updates quickly, which they have the ability to do with an online app.  THAT is what we should be watching, rather than precisely what it's like right now, on launch-day.  Every app is pretty bad on launch.

You've apparently forgotten that WotC essentially stopped supporting the off-line CB three months ago, promising, and failing, to deliver Dark Sun materiel that hasn't happened (and now isn't going to). Of course it still works; it however does not do what I was told it would do when I signed up to get it, nor what I was erpeatedly told it would do in August, September and October.

And all that is fine and dandy for those people who have the old CB; what about the folks that don't? The ones who will literally be expected to pay for a DDi sub to get access to this sub-beta (more like unit testing) software?
ΦΦΦΦΦ
From someone who knows: Welcome to applications development.

Things aren't fine straight away, there WILL be bugs, there WILL be problems, and you WILL have to deal with it, or simply not use it.

It's been out 1 day.  (Not even that)

Be patient. If this is STILL a problem in a few months, THEN you have a reason to complain.



just so you know: in front of me, from one of my devs, such a statement would lead to a sudden end of the contract on his side.

been out 1 day - so what? i expect basic stuff to work, i expect speed to be average, i expect some trouble, some bugs - but definitely there are also entire feature sets missing, basic functionality working a lot less than it did at the start of the OLD CB. And that's your benchmark, when you make new software and go live - beat the old one, or get lost.
the new cb got the old one beat ONLY in parts of the UI. which is worth nothing, when the UI is so slow that i can go and play minesweeper in between clicks.
Here be dragons: IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cydyvkj/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/c54g6ac/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/csw6fhj/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cbxbgmp/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cz7v5bd/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/ccg9eld/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/c8szhnn/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cp68b5u/.gif)
56767308 wrote:
Sadly, I don't think this has anything to do with wanting Next to be a great game. It has to do with wanting Next to determine who won the Edition War. [...] For those of us who just want D&D Next to be a good game, this is getting to be a real drag.
57870548 wrote:
I think I figured it out. This program is a character builder, not a character builder. It teaches patience, empathy, and tolerance. All most excellent character traits.
From someone who knows: Welcome to applications development.

Things aren't fine straight away, there WILL be bugs, there WILL be problems, and you WILL have to deal with it, or simply not use it.

It's been out 1 day.  (Not even that)

 If this is STILL a problem in a few months, THEN you have a reason to complain.



just so you know: in front of me, from one of my devs, such a statement would lead to a sudden end of the contract on his side.

been out 1 day - so what? i expect basic stuff to work, i expect speed to be average, i expect some trouble, some bugs - but definitely there are also entire feature sets missing, basic functionality working a lot less than it did at the start of the OLD CB. And that's your benchmark, when you make new software and go live - beat the old one, or get lost.
the new cb got the old one beat ONLY in parts of the UI. which is worth nothing, when the UI is so slow that i can go and play minesweeper in between clicks.



Maybe they outsourced it to India.

Company I work for does the same. We have things developed offshore by developers who have no clue since our application is medical. Speaking from experience when I went there, they don't even know what a prescription is. I walked into a pharmacy my first few days there for something to help with my sleep expecting something like Tylenol PM, the pharmacist hand me Valium(a Narcotic).

Maybe WotC did the same with the CB development. Resource's are cheaper. Give it to people who never heard of the game.
The house metaphor is close, but a bit off. 

Let's say you rent the house, and after a rocky start things are going pretty good (despite the fact that your place isn't nearly as cool as the model you were shown initially).  Then a few months back the landlord stops providing maintence service.  After a while he does a half-hearted roof patch that actually makes the roof leak more. 

You are expecting him to come and add the new fixtures you were promised, but instead he tells you you have to move to a new unit which will be just as good or better--except that its missing a few features the old place had like a microwave and extra storage space.  You can stay in the old unit for free, but he won't fix anything.  Oh and by the way, if you stay in the new place, he can take all your furniture and you puppy if you decide not to pay (but you can keep any pictures of them you had on your person at the time). 

Then the big day arrives.  You're hopeful that the new place will be nicer, even if it is lacking some of the amenities your old place had.  When you get to the new place, you realize it is only half-built.

Way to go Slumlords of the Coast!

I love D&D more than I could ever love a human child.

I could only wish it was April 1st.  Unfortunately, this is a Beta version and the are selling it as a live production system.  Even the developer aknowledge it is Beta, check the version number on the splash screen... v0.1.155.0
That leading zero means Beta.  The Initial Operating Capability (IOC) would have a v1.x.x.x.  Congrats folks, we are paying for the privilage of beta testing!
Former Insider - Give me a reason to come back.
From someone who knows: Welcome to applications development.

Things aren't fine straight away, there WILL be bugs, there WILL be problems, and you WILL have to deal with it, or simply not use it.

It's been out 1 day.  (Not even that)

If this is STILL a problem in a few months, THEN you have a reason to complain.



I disagree. The fact is this is a replacement for a product which up until a few months ago was working well and up to date.

Now you have a choice of up to date or not working. This is going to get worse as the old one falls more and more out of date.

If this was a new product, say an encounter builder, people would be upset, but not to the degree they are with this. They'd still have everything they ever had, plus an extra (even if it didn't work great). You'd be right. Day one would be early doors.
But everyone would still have a better facility than they did a month ago.

This however is an insult.
This isn't day one of a character builder. This is day 700+. They had one working and they've gutted it for something that doesn't.

The fact that this is now the current CB. The only one you can download, the only one geting updates, the only one getting support, this means it needs to be up to the standards people expect. If it can't then they need to continue to support the product that does fracking work until it can, even if that does mean more work and a slower roll out of the online tools.
You're all acting as if the old character builder is no longer working.

The old CB does still work. But it never recieved those much anticipated updates, like Dark Sun.

If WotC does not want to support the old CB then make the code available so REAL developers who care about the game can fix the issue's in it as well as the code for MB.

We would fix it out of love for the game itself.



I'll just leave this here...

code.google.com/p/cbloader/

Maybe they outsourced it to India.

Company I work for does the same. We have things developed offshore by developers who have no clue since our application is medical. Speaking from experience when I went there, they don't even know what a prescription is. I walked into a pharmacy my first few days there for something to help with my sleep expecting something like Tylenol PM, the pharmacist hand me Valium(a Narcotic).

Maybe WotC did the same with the CB development. Resource's are cheaper. Give it to people who never heard of the game.




Off topic: Valium does help you sleep(and much more efficiently than Tylenol PM). That's what narcotics do. Different countries have different prescription laws, for instance the US and the UK both allow pseudoephedrine over the counter, while many European countries require prescrptions for medicines with this substance.

Back to topic:
This isn't an issue of outsourcing or coding. This is an issue of management. My issue is not with the developers or the product as such, the product is not finished, overruns happen, they need more time to complete it, that is fine.

My issue is that someone, somewhere in the WotC hierarchy has the audacity to think that it is appropriate to charge customers for this version of the product, which is inferior to what they previously offered.

I don't think that
Mad Scientist
You're all acting as if the old character builder is no longer working.




Could you direct me to somewhere I could legally download the old characterbuilder? You know the one that had the great features of the demo I downloaded a week ago?
Mad Scientist
What I find interesting is the amount of people making a fuss about the character builder that, in that very long thread, were bandstanding about how they didn't think it was going to be that great and how they were cancelling their subscriptions, ect...

I've used the character builder on 3 different computers (two macs and one PC) and the only real trouble I've had...hasn't been trouble at all.  I had a slight problem with the PC one that kept killing the name I saved a character as.  And there's a small lag time with the ability scores (but I expect that for a cloud computing application).

This thing works.  I don't know what kind of rigs, ISPs, extra applications you're running at the time, but this thing works just fine.  Made three characters in less then a half hour.  There was some extra navigating, because the feat lists aren't built like I expected them to be and I had to monkey about with the equipment...but it's a new application.  I expect a learning curve.

Bah...not like you guys are going to listen to me anyways.
What I find interesting is the amount of people making a fuss about the character builder that, in that very long thread, were bandstanding about how they didn't think it was going to be that great and how they were cancelling their subscriptions, ect...

I've used the character builder on 3 different computers (two macs and one PC) and the only real trouble I've had...hasn't been trouble at all.  I had a slight problem with the PC one that kept killing the name I saved a character as.  And there's a small lag time with the ability scores (but I expect that for a cloud computing application).

This thing works.  I don't know what kind of rigs, ISPs, extra applications you're running at the time, but this thing works just fine.  Made three characters in less then a half hour.  There was some extra navigating, because the feat lists aren't built like I expected them to be and I had to monkey about with the equipment...but it's a new application.  I expect a learning curve.

Bah...not like you guys are going to listen to me anyways.



I am not saying that it doesn't work. It does. What I am saying is that it has less features than the character builder I already had. There are no conditional AC bonuses on the sheet, there are no off-hand weapon stats in powers or in melee basic attack for instance.

These aren't bugs, these are things that aren't implemented, because they obviously thought that rushing out a product in order to "stop piracy" before christmas was more important than taking care of paying customers.


Mad Scientist
You're all acting as if the old character builder is no longer working.

Extending the "House" analogy above, it's like being told "This other house will eventually be your house, we're working on it, but if you want to move in now you can."

Ok, I FULLY admit that my suggestion of "months" was very much off.  I was looking too long into the distance.  Basically, it's up to WotC to roll out updates quickly, which they have the ability to do with an online app.  THAT is what we should be watching, rather than precisely what it's like right now, on launch-day.  Every app is pretty bad on launch.



No its more like you are renting the first house and it has several rooms that were unfinished but that you were told were going to be done. Instead a new house was being built and it doesnt have the electricity or gas turned on yet.
And for new users moving into the community they get to see the people living in the old house but cannot join them. They still get to pay rent though. 
What I find interesting is the amount of people making a fuss about the character builder that, in that very long thread, were bandstanding about how they didn't think it was going to be that great and how they were cancelling their subscriptions, ect...

I've used the character builder on 3 different computers (two macs and one PC) and the only real trouble I've had...hasn't been trouble at all.  I had a slight problem with the PC one that kept killing the name I saved a character as.  And there's a small lag time with the ability scores (but I expect that for a cloud computing application).

This thing works.  I don't know what kind of rigs, ISPs, extra applications you're running at the time, but this thing works just fine.  Made three characters in less then a half hour.  There was some extra navigating, because the feat lists aren't built like I expected them to be and I had to monkey about with the equipment...but it's a new application.  I expect a learning curve.

Bah...not like you guys are going to listen to me anyways.



I am not saying that it doesn't work. It does. What I am saying is that it has less features than the character builder I already had. There are no conditional AC bonuses on the sheet, there are no off-hand weapon stats in powers or in melee basic attack for instance.

These aren't bugs, these are things that aren't implemented, because they obviously thought that rushing out a product in order to "stop piracy" before christmas was more important than taking care of paying customers.



I guess I don't know where they were on the old CB.  I never had any space for conditional AC bonuses.  The only AC bonus it ever showed me was the static one.  I had to remember my Mobility and power AC bonuses.

As for off hand stuff, I counter that that stuff never worked.  At least, not for me and the plethora of players that tried to make characters on my builder.  My brother tried to get his off-hand weapons on his ranger and his off-hand staff to add bonuses, and it never did.

Sure, it's stuff that has to be worked on.  But I still think it's about the same experience as the old CB, given the huge memory-leak issues, the glitches in the program, all of the bonuses that SHOULD have been added that never got added, ect...  It's the same monster, just a different skin, in my opinion.
You're all acting as if the old character builder is no longer working.




Could you direct me to somewhere I could legally download the old characterbuilder? You know the one that had the great features of the demo I downloaded a week ago?



I would also like to have a copy of the full version to use until some of the kinks in this new one are ironed out. Plus, I prefer that character sheet and its set-up.
RS: 60/60 CS: 60/60 RotS: 60/60 U:60/60 CotF: 60/60 BH: 60/60 A&E: 51/60 TFU: 53/60 LotF: 37/60 KotOR: 37/60 CW: 26/40 IE: 31/40 JA: 17/40 G@W: 7/40 DT: 7/40 Good trades with: Lily_Wan, creme_brule, suki_jedi_apprentice, Ephant_Mon
Wizards could have saved themselves a lot of grief if they would have just continued to update the old CB on time while they developed the new tool. Instead, they left subscribers like me waiting for months to get a Dark Sun update, which I never did and never will for the program that I originally signed up for, and instead can only use the new material on their new program. I was finally able to create my Dark Sun character, after a few months of having to manually create custom elements in the old CB, but it took me far to long to create a character that I already knew everything in his build. The new lay out is not nearly as conducive to just scrolling through and checking what different options your characters have as the old. The shop in particular is very awkward. In general I prefer the older style of character sheets as well, although I do like that the new sheets actually give enough space to print out the full descriptions of your feats. I'm an annual subscriber, and will probably remain so in order to maintain access to the online Compendium and Dragon articles, but I am very unimpressed by the new builder, and aside from my Dark Sun character, will continue to use the old builder instead. I just wish Wizards would give me the updates for that builder that they promised for months and never delivered.

"I still think it's about the same experience as the old CB, given the huge memory-leak issues, the glitches in the program, all of the bonuses that SHOULD have been added that never got added, ect...  It's the same monster, just a different skin, in my opinion."

 Whoah, what?  The new "skin" you're talking about is missing tons of basic UI functionality the old "skin" had before.  It is also missing many, many features that many people have been relying on for quite a while and introduces new flaws not present in the old one.  It's not "different", it's hobbled.  I'm sure it's not going to stay that way, but there's no use pretending it isn't what it is.

It's obvious WotC had their resources booked for updates on an existing app during this time and then decided they needed to build a new app from the ground up on an emergency basis in order to protect income stream in the long run.  This is neither "good" nor "bad" but it does mean that now they have bitten off more than they can chew: their plate was already full due to the fact that they had already promised subscribers new content implementation, and now they've added ground-up development of a completely new app to their workload without actually possessing (I assume from looking at how distant from feature-complete the new app is) the liquid and personnel resources to cover that unforeseen need.
In other words, when it was decided that this is what needed to be done, I am certain there were many producers/project managers in the WotC offices pacing and pulling their hair out while they looked at spreadsheets that did not add up.  The meetings those guys were in had to be no fun as they realized the hose-job they were in for.

Lack of market/tech foresight has forced them to waste resources and time reinventing the wheel instead of plugging along like the original plan (and resources, remember) called for.  And this isn't a "blame" thing - they're pretty new at this stuff and as it turns out, s**t happens as you feel your way along into new territory.  But the fact that they are under-staffed with a typical holiday crunch deadline gives us this predictable result: an unfortunately complicated delivery of an app that is under-developed, under-tested and feature-poor when compared to the more robust tool it is intended to replace and improve upon.

They probably figured they had to deliver something, and PDQ, even if it's a real mess, and that leaving the old app open for use would soften the blow for those who found the new tool to be too primitive to squeeze reasonable functionality out of.  I for one will be exercising the option of sticking with the older and far, far more functional app until they have at least gotten this product solidly into beta level.

Just because I like the game, the Character Builder and what WotC is (slowly) doing with the tools in general (and I completely understand their reasoning), I'm not going to pretend that a somewhat destructive change of direction in the middle of a semi-bungled product delivery isn't ultimately a genuine setback for the consumer.
I'm also not going to threaten to cancel my DDI subscription or take to the streets with torches and Frankenstein rakes.  I just hope that WotC takes this feature-loss issue seriously and knows where to put their resources while they mop up this mess - and luck to them.

From someone who knows: Welcome to applications development.

Things aren't fine straight away, there WILL be bugs, there WILL be problems, and you WILL have to deal with it, or simply not use it.

It's been out 1 day.  (Not even that)

 If this is STILL a problem in a few months, THEN you have a reason to complain.


Psst. I have some swampland in Florida... cheap.

http://www.enworld.org

Stop by and say hi!

You're all acting as if the old character builder is no longer working.

The old CB does still work. But it never recieved those much anticipated updates, like Dark Sun.

If WotC does not want to support the old CB then make the code available so REAL developers who care about the game can fix the issue's in it as well as the code for MB.

We would fix it out of love for the game itself.



I'll just leave this here...

code.google.com/p/cbloader/


Thats awesome! Ha, the online builder isn't hackable... sure... no one could think of a way to get a CB now... nope... nothing to see here.

http://www.enworld.org

Stop by and say hi!

From someone who knows: Welcome to applications development.

Things aren't fine straight away, there WILL be bugs, there WILL be problems, and you WILL have to deal with it, or simply not use it.

It's been out 1 day.  (Not even that)
If this is STILL a problem in a few months, THEN you have a reason to complain.

What a WotC homer.  What, you can't demand for the services you want to pay for? 

Of course if I don't want the service I'm not going to pay for it.  I'm not going to pay and 'wait it out' as they go.  They promised other tools while I did that last time and instead chose to take their development time and devote it to rewriting an existing app.

It's a problem NOW because it's not a service worth having or paying for yet.  It's a problem NOW because it's less of a service than what we already had - and they're dropping support for the valueable product they have.  It's a problem NOW becuase they effectively made us pay for the service twice instead of rolling out new products.

WotC isn't angelic.  They make mistakes - and it's up to their user base to demonstrate to what degree those mistakes are - and to what quantity of users those mistakes affect.
I'll just leave this here...

code.google.com/p/cbloader/


I love you.
Again, I fail to see this 'basic' functionality that everyone claims is missing. I can choose a class. Check. I can choose a race. Check. I can assign my campaign setting and backround. Check. I can set my ability scores in new ways, as well as the old. Check. I can assign skills? Check. How about powers? Feats? Special stuff for cross class and hybrid? All of those check. I can buy equipment and equip it. While kind of clunky compared to the old system, that gets a check. I can save the character and print it out. Check.

Tell me again..because I am honestly lost and curious...where is the basic functionality that is lost on this builder?
At this point, there's no point in even responding to this except to point out how pointless a response would be.
Tell me again..because I am honestly lost and curious...where is the basic functionality that is lost on this builder?




Selecting spellscars.
Selecting inherent bonuses.
Selecting campaign options, disallowing chosen content and options.
Multiple weapons showing on power cards.
Customisable character sheets.
Mousewheel scrolling.
Organising the shop by price (at least in the adventuring gear tab, I don't recall trying it in others yet).
Being able to see all of a particular item type in the shop and compare them (particularly weapons).
Selecting bonus languages for a number of races which should have them.
Being able to do everything you mentioned without often-staggering lag.
Creating a copy/paste summary for posting on the forums and easy importing into the builder.
Being able to save more than 20 characters.
A live character viewer with tickable boxes and editable fields.
Zooming in.

I could go on, if I went and looked up a couple of threads, or thought about it for more than a minute - that's just off the top of my head.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Tell me again..because I am honestly lost and curious...where is the basic functionality that is lost on this builder?




  • 25 point buy as a house rule ("Rolling the stats" won't always work)

  • Rolling stats (not all values allowed)

  • Supporting +2 Wis/Con half-elves from HotFK

  • Journal entries

  • Themes outside of dark sun

  • Inherent bonuses in dark sun

  • Bonus feats from house rules

  • Custom pictures for your PC

  • Sharing PCs with your DM

  • Worshiping multiple dieties, as per Divine Power

  • Mages picking Wizard powers, as per sidebar in HotFL

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Note that kitsunecrystal can easily define all of those as not "basic" functionality. Can't win this one. 
No True Scotsman.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

I can buy equipment and equip it.  While kind of clunky compared to the old system, that gets a check.



No that doesn't get a check.  Item sets are missing (at least I can't find them).  In any situation, that should be a basic functionality.  If it's in a book, it should have been released at launch.

Basic functionality includes:

Mousewheel scrolling
A live character viewer with tickable boxes and editable fields.
Zooming in.
A house rules options
Selecting campaign options, disallowing chosen content and options.


It is a nice idea but not an essential basic function:

Customizable character sheets (use a piece of paper)
Customizable portraits (NOT a basic function but nice)
Journal entries (Again use a piece of paper)



And for people posting about lag please define lag.  Do you mean waiting 2 minutes for the page to execute your command?  Or do you mean 15 seconds?


As for the chronic complaint about increasing the 20 character limit.  Please answer the following questions for me, so I can better understand the situation.


How many characters does one player need for each campaign?  As a DM, how many games are you currently running where you need more than 20 slots?  Are these slots for you and/or the players?  Are you using these 20 slots for NPCs?


 

Remember, no matter where ever you go, there you are. --Shaundakul
How many characters does one player need for each campaign?  As a DM, how many games are you currently running where you need more than 20 slots?  Are these slots for you and/or the players?  Are you using these 20 slots for NPCs?



I run 4 campaigns that range between 5 and 9 players per.  I create, print, and store all of their character sheets for them in the builder to minimize the potential of data being modified between sessions for each campaign, and as a reference to the status of each character per campaign.  In addition, character wish lists and build notes from my players are stored in the Journal entry for each character so that I can reference those when creating treasure parcels.  My system may not work for all, but it works for me.

With a 20 character limit, and the inability to place character groups in folders (like the old CB had) my system has to be completely redone.  I can't function as a DM as I was able to do before. 

That's a failure in my book.
And for people posting about lag please define lag.  Do you mean waiting 2 minutes for the page to execute your command?  Or do you mean 15 seconds?



2 seconds to 2 minutes. Two seconds is too much; heck, as far as I'm concerned, any noticeable delay is almost too much. 

How many characters does one player need for each campaign?  As a DM, how many games are you currently running where you need more than 20 slots?  Are these slots for you and/or the players?  Are you using these 20 slots for NPCs?



I run 3 campaigns (Eberron, Dark Sun, Essentials), and play in three. I have 5 characters in each campaign I run, which I manage for my group*. I have one character in each of the others. I maintain one "leveled up version" of one character I play, just to keep track of where he's going. So that's 19 characters I manage. 

I have 106 saved characters, but obviously I wouldn't use them all - many were experiments, screwing around. But 20 is a number that can reasonably be hit, and I think it's simply a strangely small number.  


* Which is clearly a thing discouraged by this model - individual subscriptions are the goal.
Tell me again..because I am honestly lost and curious...where is the basic functionality that is lost on this builder?




  • 25 point buy as a house rule ("Rolling the stats" won't always work)

  • Rolling stats (not all values allowed)

  • Supporting +2 Wis/Con half-elves from HotFK

  • Journal entries

  • Themes outside of dark sun

  • Inherent bonuses in dark sun

  • Bonus feats from house rules

  • Custom pictures for your PC

  • Sharing PCs with your DM

  • Worshiping multiple dieties, as per Divine Power

  • Mages picking Wizard powers, as per sidebar in HotFL



Note that kitsunecrystal can easily define all of those as not "basic" functionality. Can't win this one. 


Not true, Mock. Allowing input of rolled stats is base functionality. Not only this, but even rolling the stats using the in builder button can create stats that the builder considers invalid. It may not be the preferred way to create stats, but it's not only in the Players Handbook, it's a way of creating stats that has been around since AD&D, if not earlier.

The other stuff you may have a point on, but this is a major issue.

Not true, Mock. Allowing input of rolled stats is base functionality. Not only this, but even rolling the stats using the in builder button can create stats that the builder considers invalid. It may not be the preferred way to create stats, but it's not only in the Players Handbook, it's a way of creating stats that has been around since AD&D, if not earlier.

The other stuff you may have a point on, but this is a major issue.



I think you may have misunderstood Mock.  He wasn't saying that those items weren't "basic" functionality, he was just pointing out that kitsunecrystal could just change his definition of "basic functionality" to exclude them, in a No True Scotsman kind of way.
Tell me again..because I am honestly lost and curious...where is the basic functionality that is lost on this builder?



+ small size printfiles - my hobgoblin paladin pretty much exploded the printer of my DM. three tries, no work. 5 pages, 1.55gb pdf printing later.  there is an 8mb pdf. Shows they have no clue how to do this properly. should be around 40k once printed to pdf, 80 if you do it the hard way and use high res graphics. the old ones were already pretty large. but the new ones? incredibly large.

+ the standard D&D4e character sheet, as presented in the PHB.

+ Session/campaign notes larger than 1 line.
Here be dragons: IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cydyvkj/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/c54g6ac/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/csw6fhj/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cbxbgmp/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cz7v5bd/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/ccg9eld/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/c8szhnn/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cp68b5u/.gif)
56767308 wrote:
Sadly, I don't think this has anything to do with wanting Next to be a great game. It has to do with wanting Next to determine who won the Edition War. [...] For those of us who just want D&D Next to be a good game, this is getting to be a real drag.
57870548 wrote:
I think I figured it out. This program is a character builder, not a character builder. It teaches patience, empathy, and tolerance. All most excellent character traits.
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