Guns 'n' Ammo

50 posts / 0 new
Last post
Overall I like the game but I was very disappointed in the weapons and gear, particularly the ridiculous ammo rules.  What, nobody has pockets in the future?  This is what I've brainstormed to remove the abstraction a little bit:

One handed light guns become light pistols.  Light pistols use clips of 10 rounds each.  It takes a minor action to replace a clip.

Two handed light guns become assault rifles.  Assault rifles use magazines of 10 rounds each.  They actually have more than 10 bullets, but they are assumed to be fired in short bursts.  It's still considered a single attack on a single target.  It takes a minor action to replace a magazine.

One handed heavy guns become heavy pistols.  Heavy pistols also use clips of 10 rounds.

Two handed heavy guns become shotguns.  They are assumed to be using slugs or a small spread area, so that it's still one attack on one target.  Shotguns hold 5 rounds but do not use clips or magazines.  It takes a minor action to load a single new round into a shotgun.

Each of the four types of weapons uses different rounds.

What do you think?
I think it's stupid, and you really missed the point behind the abstraction.

Not to mention the game balance.

But if you like tracking such detailed minutae, go for it. While you're busy counting bullets, I'll finish a second encounter.
I expect you want people to track ammo for their non-gun ranged weapons too.
AlexandraErin: If last season was any indication, I think Encounters is pretty much the elemental opposite of "organized" play!
If you don't like the fact that "you have ammo or you don't" rule, then just let people keep track of ammo in a generic sense.

This way, you get the "I have 10 rounds of ammo" feature but you don't have to keep track of every type of bullet, rocket, arrow, bolt, shuriken, stone, coin, or whatnot during the game.

In my game, one of my players has one of those toy disc guns that was modified to shoot sharpened quarters. Quarters that he found in the parking meter club that he uses for melee.

In your system, how can you have a gun like that without going through the rigamarole of taking into account a player's imagination and it's effect on the game?

You can't. I don't suggest you go backwards and add that level of detail to your game, but instead just hand out a card that says "AMMO" on it (or poker chips, or M&Ms...well, then players would be eating their bullets...). Keep it generic but just allow for players to find ammo. They have ammo if it's recorded and they keep track of how much they're using so long as they have some way to represent their remaining stores.

I would go the card route. Just get a bunch of business card printer sheets, print "AMMO" 4 - 5 times on each one (40 - 50 ammo entries on a standard avery business card sheet), punch out the ammo cards, cut them into their individual ammo entries, and hand them out.

This will give a tactile feeling to the game, but it's going to slow combat down a bit as well as finding ammo (ancient junk table). Do they get 1? 2? 10? 50? Be prepared to do a lot of cutting, printing and handing out of ammo cards or waiting for players to write it down...then the'll forget to mark off their ammo. At least with the cards, you can physically take ammo from them as they use it.
I don't think tracking every round is that time consuming or a bad idea.  go for it.  I decided for a modified house rule  on the abstract ammo rule.  I have players track extra ammo abstractly, for example a player would have ammo x 1 on the gear sheet.  If they conserve ammo and only shoot once an encounter they retain ammo.  If they shoot more than once an encounter then they loose all thier ammo.  If they find extra ammo during an adventure or bargain for ammo in a settlement then they mark the extra ammo as in, ammo x2.  If a character is lucky they can stock up on ammo like, ammo x 3 or ammo x 4.  A player knows for each extra ammo they have an encounter they can fire as often as they wish without having to worry about running out of ammo.  Anyway we like the rule.  I like the abstract rule, and feel the need to limit ammo in a post-apocolyptic settings.  But sometimes it's fun to just blast mutant monsters with fire arms. 
One handed light guns become light pistols.

While I see what you are attempting, I don't see what renaming the categories accomplished.  Your just as capable of saying "this category has this many shots and takes this long to reload" without renaming it needlessly.
While you're busy counting bullets, I'll finish a second encounter.

In 25+ years of gaming I've never seen a significant time savings from discarding or including ammunition rules.  Seriously, how long does it take for somebody to mark one thing on their character sheet while the GM is handling other people's actions?  Or for the GM to say "you find 30 bullets and 2 cannon shells with the loot" and then let the players fight over it while throwing down the map for the next encounter? That being said, I overall like the abstraction system in GW and wouldn't use the OPs, simply because one of my companions at the last game was firing cans of spam at the enemy (and at one desperate point, parts of a swarm PC that got to close) and that's just plain groovy.
they find extra ammo during an adventure or bargain for ammo in a settlement then they mark the extra ammo as in, ammo x2.

Now this is a system I can get behind.  If the guy with the stale M&M firing shotgun finds a few bags in an old vending machine, it makes perfect sense he now can go full throttle for an extra encounter or so. Abstract recharges. And this wouldn't change anything happening during an encounter since the normal rules are applying there...  It might even encourage people to pay attention to their environment more, looking for potential reloads.
I don't think tracking every round is that time consuming or a bad idea.  go for it.  I decided for a modified house rule  on the abstract ammo rule.  I have players track extra ammo abstractly, for example a player would have ammo x 1 on the gear sheet.  If they conserve ammo and only shoot once an encounter they retain ammo.  If they shoot more than once an encounter then they loose all thier ammo.  If they find extra ammo during an adventure or bargain for ammo in a settlement then they mark the extra ammo as in, ammo x2.  If a character is lucky they can stock up on ammo like, ammo x 3 or ammo x 4.  A player knows for each extra ammo they have an encounter they can fire as often as they wish without having to worry about running out of ammo.  Anyway we like the rule.  I like the abstract rule, and feel the need to limit ammo in a post-apocolyptic settings.  But sometimes it's fun to just blast mutant monsters with fire arms. 

This could also work with the card system. "You found ammo!" (Imagine AOL's "You've Got Mail!" coming from an Android...heh) then you give the player an AMMO card.

Whenever that player fires his gun more than 1 time in an encounter, he gives up an ammo card. If he has more cards then he still has ammo, but you now have an easy way to represent ammo in the game that supports what sirkaikillah is talking about with the tactile feel of what I like to strive for in games.
The Ammo rules as written work just fine.  If you want to count bullets & biscuits in your games, knock yourself out.  As for me and my mutants, we'll use the RAW.
The Ammo rules as written work just fine.  If you want to count bullets & biscuits in your games, knock yourself out.  As for me and my mutants, we'll use the RAW.


Yep each to his own.  The wonderful thing about pen and paper Rpgs, is they are flexible and can be tweaked to fit the gaming needs of individual gaming groups. 
One thing about ammo that I think a lot of folks miss is that, from the time you decide to use ammo twice, you really should get the most out of your investment and use it every round thereafter.
I don't think tracking every round is that time consuming or a bad idea.  go for it.  I decided for a modified house rule  on the abstract ammo rule.  I have players track extra ammo abstractly, for example a player would have ammo x 1 on the gear sheet.  If they conserve ammo and only shoot once an encounter they retain ammo.  If they shoot more than once an encounter then they loose all thier ammo.  If they find extra ammo during an adventure or bargain for ammo in a settlement then they mark the extra ammo as in, ammo x2.  If a character is lucky they can stock up on ammo like, ammo x 3 or ammo x 4.  A player knows for each extra ammo they have an encounter they can fire as often as they wish without having to worry about running out of ammo.  Anyway we like the rule.  I like the abstract rule, and feel the need to limit ammo in a post-apocolyptic settings.  But sometimes it's fun to just blast mutant monsters with fire arms. 

This could also work with the card system. "You found ammo!" (Imagine AOL's "You've Got Mail!" coming from an Android...heh) then you give the player an AMMO card.

Whenever that player fires his gun more than 1 time in an encounter, he gives up an ammo card. If he has more cards then he still has ammo, but you now have an easy way to represent ammo in the game that supports what sirkaikillah is talking about with the tactile feel of what I like to strive for in games.



Combining these two, how about each player with a gun has an AMMO Card, thar reads like

AMMO

Single Shot
Encounter
Free Action   Personal
Effect: You may make a ranged basic attack or use a ranged attack power with the weapon keyword using a gun.  Tap this card.
Special: If this card is tapped, you cannot make ranged basic attacks or use ranged attack powers with the weapon keyword using a gun.

Keep Firing!
Enconter
Free Action  Personal
Effect:  You may make ranged basic attacks or use ranged attack powers with the weapon keyword using guns until the end of the encounter.  Tap this card, and turn over this card at the end of the encounter.
Special: You may use this power if this card is already tapped from using Single Shot.

On the back, the card would simply read

OUT OF AMMO
Effect: You cannot make ranged basic attacks or use ranged attack powers with the weapon keyword using a gun.  Do not ready this card at the end of an encounter.
Special: Discard an EXTRA AMMO card to turn this card over and ready it.

Then, you could give out EXTRA AMMO cards as loot.

Tracking ammo is just fine if you want to do it.  It's more worthwhile if you're dealing with equipment and wealth in a less abstract seat-of-the-pants way than the game expects.  For instance, rounds of ammo could be a base unit of currency, along with Dark-Sun style 'survival days.'  There, now you have a little resource-management for the PCs, and a vague basis for a post-apoclyptic economy.

The more you want to delve into dark, gritty, or (shudder) 'realistic,' the more stuff you can track.  Healing surges, wounds, radiation and toxin exposure, disease, non-Omega expendables, fuel, medical suplies, etc,  etc... 

 

 

Oops, looks like this request tried to create an infinite loop. We do not allow such things here. We are a professional website!


Tracking ammo is just fine if you want to do it.  It's more worthwhile if you're dealing with equipment and wealth in a less abstract seat-of-the-pants way than the game expects.  For instance, rounds of ammo could be a base unit of currency, along with Dark-Sun style 'survival days.'  There, now you have a little resource-management for the PCs, and a vague basis for a post-apoclyptic economy.

The more you want to delve into dark, gritty, or (shudder) 'realistic,' the more stuff you can track.  Healing surges, wounds, radiation and toxin exposure, disease, non-Omega expendables, fuel, medical suplies, etc,  etc... 



I have no desire to play GW gritty and realistic.  I like the silly, humorous version of the game, it fits my personality.  I do not want to play the resource management game either, but what I want is the opportunity for Pcs to go hog wild with guns, without the worry of running out of ammo, once and a while.  The rules as RAW encouraged conservation of Ammo, one shot an encounter.  I like the idea of conserving ammo in a post- apocolyptic world and the rule RAW works great at that, without having to track every round.  But I want to encourage my players to horde ammo they find and the opportunity to use that ammo when they feel the need and have the ammo to let loose with the firearms.  The change I make comes from the desire to give my players the opportunity to go in guns blazing once in a while, without suffering the consequences of runnning out of ammo for not being conservative at all times.
Well, you could just hand out a lot of ammo as rewards.

Gamma World Downloads: Character sheets, GM screen, adventures, monsters, house rules, cards, and more! You can usually find my posts at the Gamma World forum.


What do you think?



Rather than lambast you for wanting more gun options (which I honestly don't understand. I mean really people, plenty of people want to use GW as a serious post-apoc setting, why don't you go bother THEM if your so hung up on more guns) I will give you a constructive suggestion:

If you want solid, well-balanced 4E rules for guns, go buy a copy / order a pdf of Amethyst: Foundations. Amethyst is a fantastic resource for injecting technology into 4E games whether you are using the Amethyst setting or not. Not to mention the fact that the setting is a great read even if you arent using it.

Go grab a copy of Amethyst, and use what you want from it. No need to complicate things, AND you'll have something 'RAW' to give to your players too ;P

Well, you could just hand out a lot of ammo as rewards.


I could, but to me, Pc finding ammo everytime they us it up, by shooting more than once an encounter is lame.  the rules RAW, when you find ammo and have not run out, by shooting more than once an encounter, it changes nothing.  Finding ammo is only important if you shoot more than once an encounter.  I don't like that.  I think it would be more fun for our group to find ammo and stock up on it for that moment when they need to blast themselves out of a situation. 

What do you think?



Rather than lambast you for wanting more gun options (which I honestly don't understand. I mean really people, plenty of people want to use GW as a serious post-apoc setting, why don't you go bother THEM if your so hung up on more guns) I will give you a constructive suggestion:

....



Really I don't want a more serious GW experience.  I like the wacky GW, the wackyness is what really excites me about the game.  But I do want more fun with gun play.  I also want to impress on the players the importance of hording ammo in a post apocolyptic world (which the current rules really don't encourage).  So my constructive criticm is to follow my suggestions posted above.  I think they provide a simple alternative to the current ammo restrictions which really discourages gun use.  If the above ideas do not work for you then try some other alternative.
I suggest Amethyst because that is in fact what the OP was asking about.

Amethyst provides stats for specific guns, rules for heavy weapons like rocket launchers and plasma cannons, and rules for clips / reloading / ammunition.

The OP can pick and choose at his leisure, but what he described is essentially what Amethyst provides, with the addition of ammo types, which could of course just be removed if you didnt want to track it that carefully.

It works quite easilly with your suggested houserule, sirkaikillah. One simply assumes that 'You found an ammo box with a variety of stuff in it', and when you fire your guns, you used one up and threw out anything you couldn't use at the time.
Consider the suggestion retracted.  I really don't understand why they had to abstract the weapon rules so severely.  I guess I'm thinking too much about mundane gear instead of mutations and Omega Tech.  I'm used to sci-fi games like Shadowrun or Rifts where if you can't use your gun in a fight you're probably going to be rolling a new character pretty quickly.

I have been working on a setting that combines Gamma World, Fallout, The Postman, The City of Ember (a vault), Paranoia (a vault), and Loguns Run (a vault).  Not all vaults are made by VaultTech.  I enjoy resource management, and I am a simulationist (I want my fantasy to be internally consistent . . . with things like economies that players can interact with in meaningful ways).


To such ends I have the following system:


(1) Bullet [5 tv / 10 tv]: Ammunition is in high demand in the wasteland and is stamped by competing banks and serves as a near universal form of currency.  Most bullets have a trade value of 5 in civilized areas, and 10 in uncivilized areas.


(2) Gold Coin [100 tv]: The same banks that manufacture bullets also mint gold coins that can be traded in at a bank for various amounts of bullets.   A 20-Bullet Gold Coin is about the size of a dime.


(3) Food and Drink [30 tv a day for just about the cheapest food consisting of radiated water and radiation healing cave moss]: Preservatives keep food edible indefinitely. 


(3a) Radiation free food and drink is especially valuable.  Radiation free food sells for 10 trade value per meal (Cave Moss is an exception).  A well that produces clean water could make a wastelander quite wealthy (10 trade value per meal).


(3b) A radiated meal of one food item and one drink item is worth 10 trade value (5 each), and causes four points of radiation damage (2 each, can not be healed normally). 


(3c) Food and drink that heals radiation is in a high demand.  Cave Fungus farms dot the landscape.  Cave Fungus is a bad tasting, but nutritious, slimy moss that heals radiation.  One unit of Cave Fungus heals 1-point of radiation damage and has a trade value of 1.  Five units of cave moss make up the food portion of a meal.  Preserved Cave Fungus looses half of its potency and has a trade value of 2 per unit of radiation healing.  Radiation healed by most foods, such as Cave Moss, heal the radiation slowly over the course of a day.


(3d) Depending on the season fresh food can be more or less valuable than preserved food.  Fresh food tastes better (and is more nutritious), while  preserved food, depending on harvests, can be a good investment for the winter months. 


(4) Medicine: Differing forms of medication are highly prized:


(4a) RadAway [20 tv] a liquid designed to be used, that removes 20+ Science (?) radiation.  If imbibed it heals 20 radiation and causes 2d8 damage (save for half).


(4b) StimPack [20 tv] a syringe with miraculous sci-fi healing medicine that instantly removes 10+ Science (?) damage.


(5) VaultTech Ration Token [25 tv]: Each VaultTech Ration Token is good for a meal at a VaultTech vending machine.  Each VaultDweller is awarded three VaultTech Ration Tokens per day. 


Some vaults have immense warehouses buried deep within the earth that are maintained by computers and robots.  VaulTech also has regional warehouses unassociated with a specific vault.  While these warehouses are mainly stocked with radiation free food, other items of value are found within.  These robots refill the Vualts vending machines and follow strict rationing guidelines. 


The computers and robots running the warehouses see VaultTech Ration Tokens as valuable, and will often trade non-foodstuffs for them (some VaultTech warehouses ran by enterprising computers and robots have turned into thriving markets).  VaultTech Ration Tokens are dispensed to insure the survival of a given vault.  Often the tokens distributed are not enough to sustain a vault or the inhabitance of a vault, or additional foodstuffs are desired for bartering with outsiders, and as such are in high demand by vaultdwellers.


NucaCola Bottle Caps [1 tv for normal caps]: Computers and Robots keep NucaCola running.  They make NucaCola, keep bottling plants running, service a fleet of vehicles, fill vending machines, trade for supplies, and work hard to ensure that its customers remain customers.  NucaCola Bottle Caps may be traded into a NucaCola bottling plant for fabulous prizes.  This can be done either by saving individual bottle caps, or finding an instant winner cap.  One bottling plant has taken to enslaving primitive tribes (non-customers) and training them as household servants as one of the prizes to be won.


As bullets are a form of currency, a resource to be managed, I would prefer them to be counted.

In my upcoming I campaign I'm going to use rules, I've found in this blog.

In short they are as follows:

Ammo 
As in GW you either have ammo or you haven't. You start with ammo for your gun. Whenever you roll 1 on the attack with this gun, you can choose to reroll the attack, but that means that you are out of ammo (kinda Gamma World ammo rules meet Dark Sun weapon breakage rules) 

Rations, Overland travel and Barter 
Party will have survival days which they need to spend to replenish their "movement points". Those survival days (food, shelter, water, other needed things) serve as currency.
(1) Bullet [5 tv / 10 tv]: Ammunition is in high demand in the wasteland and is stamped by competing banks and serves as a near universal form of currency.  Most bullets have a trade value of 5 in civilized areas, and 10 in uncivilized areas.

(2) Gold Coin [100 tv]: The same banks that manufacture bullets also mint gold coins that can be traded in at a bank for various amounts of bullets.   A 20-Bullet Gold Coin is about the size of a dime.




Problem the first: You rate every bullet at equal value, which makes no sense whatsoever.
Relative value of different ammo aside (one can easily argue that a magnum bullet is worth more than a .22), there's the fact that different bullets require different amounts of actual material to make.

Just the slugs alone (not the powder or cases), a .22 weighs about 2 grams, and a 357 magnum is 8 grams. So you can make four 22 slugs from the same material as a single magnum... but they both have the same value? M-16 bullets are 4 grams, but use more brass for cases. AK-47 ammo weighs twice what M-16 ammo does.
The 50 caliber Desert Eagle? TWENTY ONE GRAM slugs.

As for gold coins... if they are dime sized, they will weigh 6.5688 grams. Now, if they're alloyed down to 22kt (which gold coins traditionally were, to increase durability), that brings the weight up to 7.1666 grams. Actual US dimes onyl weigh 2.268 grams
Gold is currently $45 a gram. This means a dime sized gold coin is worth over $295. Lets call it $300 for easy math.

So at this rate, 1 bullet is worth $15, and the barest minimum dirty water and moss diet costs $90 a day.

I think your scale is off. By a lot.
AlexandraErin: If last season was any indication, I think Encounters is pretty much the elemental opposite of "organized" play!
In my upcoming I campaign I'm going to use rules, I've found in this blog.

In short they are as follows:

Ammo 
As in GW you either have ammo or you haven't. You start with ammo for your gun. Whenever you roll 1 on the attack with this gun, you can choose to reroll the attack, but that means that you are out of ammo (kinda Gamma World ammo rules meet Dark Sun weapon breakage rules) 

...


Duuh, why didn't I think of that?  It's propably the reason I play games and don't design them.  Thanks I like that ammo rule. 

The one problem, for me and it is small, is that it again makes finding ammo a boon only if you are out.  I want players to get excited when they find ammo and want to horde it. 
The real problem with that rule is that YOU NEVER RUN OUT OF AMMO.

The only way you can run out of ammo is if you roll a 1 and CHOOSE to run out.

Not only does it make everyone significantly more powerful (why use a ranged weapon when a gun is better in every way AND also has unlimited ammo?), it makes tracking ammo pointless, because you'll never run out!
AlexandraErin: If last season was any indication, I think Encounters is pretty much the elemental opposite of "organized" play!
The real problem with that rule is that YOU NEVER RUN OUT OF AMMO.

The only way you can run out of ammo is if you roll a 1 and CHOOSE to run out.

Not only does it make everyone significantly more powerful (why use a ranged weapon when a gun is better in every way AND also has unlimited ammo?), it makes tracking ammo pointless, because you'll never run out!



That is another good point. 

Problem the first: You rate every bullet at equal value, which makes no sense whatsoever.  Relative value of different ammo aside (one can easily argue that a magnum bullet is worth more than a .22), there's the fact that different bullets require different amounts of actual material to make.

Just the slugs alone (not the powder or cases), a .22 weighs about 2 grams, and a 357 magnum is 8 grams. So you can make four 22 slugs from the same material as a single magnum... but they both have the same value? M-16 bullets are 4 grams, but use more brass for cases. AK-47 ammo weighs twice what M-16 ammo does.


The 50 caliber Desert Eagle? TWENTY ONE GRAM slugs.



I said most.  In my homebrew game document (not posted) I have 1/5/10 as the costs.  I may change that.  It is a draft.  I enjoy the imagery of paying for a meal with two bullets more than ten so I think I will change it. 

As for gold coins... if they are dime sized, they will weigh 6.5688 grams. Now, if they're alloyed down to 22kt (which gold coins traditionally were, to increase durability), that brings the weight up to 7.1666 grams. Actual US dimes onyl weigh 2.268 grams

Gold is currently $45 a gram. This means a dime sized gold coin is worth over $295. Lets call it $300 for easy math.


So at this rate, 1 bullet is worth $15, and the barest minimum dirty water and moss diet costs $90 a day.



The value of gold fluctuates.  Mark my words, we are currently in a gold bubble (it is not normal to have so many commercials for gold, nor is it normal to have so many cash for gold stores cluttering up the landscape).


I did not say gold was worth anything.  It should be, I think I will make it have a value.  However . . . the value posted in the document quoted said you can trade the *bank's* gold coin into that bank for bullets.  A $20 bill will buy you X . . . but I can not take any paper and go buy X.  

The gold coin could be something other than 100% gold.  There are official trade rates and unofficial ones.  Perhaps the banks skew the value in there favor, and have hired gunmen enforcing their monopoly (I think I will have at least one bank do this).

I think your scale is off. By a lot.


I find this amusing.  The S&P 500 beat 75% of actively managed mutual funds from 2002-2007.  75% of mutual fund managers could not predict our economy . . . and you think you can predict a post apocalyptic wastelands economy?


It is hard to tell over the internet whether someone is trying to be helpful, or snarky.  If your intent is to be helpful, than thank you.

Ammunition usage can be very controversial.  Some people just don't want to track it.  I have noticed that game groups I have played with have no issue with tracking ammunition.  The one time I had a player that cheated about his supply, he was called out by the other players (he eventually quit the game).  I have learned that tracking ammo is not a huge.  Where I break from reality is when dealing with ammunition weight and the need for GMs to track reloading for his opponents. 


 


Simply put, I never ask GMs to track the ammo usage of their opponents, and ammunition carried by players is weightless.  A player wanting to carry 500,000 rounds may want a talking to but it's the one concession I am willing to give.


 


With Amethyst, I admit, we didn't make it easy.  Weapons all have different capacities; we have different types of bullets with different prices.  There are traditional bullets, railgun flechettes, caseless rounds, energy cells, electronically stacked projectiles, and mini-rockets.  Clip capacities range from 5 to 500 with each pull of a trigger launching 1 to 10 rounds, depending on the power and the feats you have taken to conserve ammunition.  What’s odd is that no one has ever complained about it.  They know that a revolver has 5 shots and a Berretta has 15.  Some of them enjoy have those options. 


 


I found ammo usage to be a valuable game element.  In my first module with the current Amethyst rules, a player entered a module with 500 rounds of ammunition.  By the time the adventure was over, (three weeks later) he was empty, and spent the final encounters conserving ammunition by employing more frugal powers.  It adds a realistic element to the game that neither he nor I minded. 


 


Now, he's 10th level and carries more bullets than Cage's character in Lord of War.

(Oh, and thanks Chandrak.) 

Carying 500 rounds of ammo is insane.
A 30 round clip of M16 ammo weighs a pound. 500 rounds is 17 clips.
That's a ton of weight... it's also bulky as hell.
Standard Army/Marine loadout for combat is only 7 clips.
AlexandraErin: If last season was any indication, I think Encounters is pretty much the elemental opposite of "organized" play!
That's where "it's a game" comes in.  I don't bitch about ammo weight while I play Left 4 Dead.  

I made an Excel Sheet some time ago, I hope my math is correct.  I put in today's prices for precious metals.  This is the output.

I will have to do some work with mass to see about size.  Any tips on where to start?











































































































































































































MetalTroy Ounce*PoundOunceD&D CoinGramGold Multiplyer
Silver$27.24$297.16$24.76$5.94$0.660.019408621
Palladium$556.00$6,065.45$505.45$121.31$13.370.396152476
Gold$1,403.50$15,310.91$1,275.91$306.22$33.751
Platinum$699.00$7,625.45$635.45$152.51$16.810.498040613
Cent 2.5 gNickel 5.000 gDime 2.268 gQuarter 5.670 gHalf Dollar 11.340 gGolden Dollar 8.1 g D&D Coin 9.0718474 g
Silver$1.64$3.28$1.49$3.71$7.43$5.31$5.94
Palladium$33.43$66.86$30.33$75.82$151.64$108.31$121.31
Gold$84.39$168.77$76.56$191.39$382.78$273.41$306.22
Platinum$42.03$84.06$38.13$95.32$190.64$136.17$152.51
ValueGrams
Silver11.526406042*This is the only spot where Troy weight is used. 
Silver57.63203021**The rest of the entries are in Avoirdupois weight. 
Palladium251.869572868
Palladium503.739145736
Gold1002.962543682
Gold2507.406359206
Platinum50029.74198897

My idea for the ammo situation was do do a combination of the way they have it in the book and having extra ammo.

I plan on allowing individuals to have multiples of magazines of ammo.  Each magazine will be good for one whole gaming situation if they only fire one round per encounter.  If they fire more than one round per encounter they will have to roll to see if the magazine is spent at the end of the encounter.  If it is not spent they can use it again during the next encounter during the same gaming situation (single night of playing).  If the magazine is spent they will have to swap magazines between encounters.  If they do not have any more magazines then they are out of ammo until they can replenish some how.

All ammo will be the same caliber no matter what it is (i.e. rifle/pistol or light/heavy).  The magazine will also include revolvers as this will be like having a speed loader with the ammo ready to go.

The real problem with that rule is that YOU NEVER RUN OUT OF AMMO.

The only way you can run out of ammo is if you roll a 1 and CHOOSE to run out.

Not only does it make everyone significantly more powerful (why use a ranged weapon when a gun is better in every way AND also has unlimited ammo?), it makes tracking ammo pointless, because you'll never run out!




Oh. You will. There are situations when it's either you hit now ot some (maybe you) dies. Then you WILL gladly take that reroll and voila - you are out! And finding ammo could be made very challenging. 
On game day, I explained the super-simple ammo rules, told the players they could each choose two weapons, the players looked at the difference between guns and ranged weapons, and none of them chose guns.   Think about it, you can throw/twang an unlimitted number of knives or sawblades or arrows or ballbearings or whatever improvised 'ranged' weapon you have, or you can pop off a gun 1/encounter, then melee. 

Maybe I should have let them pick three weapons?

 

 

Oops, looks like this request tried to create an infinite loop. We do not allow such things here. We are a professional website!

On game day, I explained the super-simple ammo rules, told the players they could each choose two weapons, the players looked at the difference between guns and ranged weapons, and none of them chose guns.   Think about it, you can throw/twang an unlimitted number of knives or sawblades or arrows or ballbearings or whatever improvised 'ranged' weapon you have, or you can pop off a gun 1/encounter, then melee. 

Maybe I should have let them pick three weapons?



That happened when our group made characters.  The one exception was the mindbreaker/ kitty, who realized he had an awesome @-will ranged attack as a novice power, so any ranged weapon was a bonus, thus he chose a gun.  I forsaw this happening, it was one of the reasons I altered the existing ammo rules to fit the type of GW game I wanted to play,  guns and bullets are highhly desired. 
A gun might make a lot of sense for a hypercognitive, too.  Novice power is encounter, uses a weapon, might as well get the most you can out of it...

 

 

Oops, looks like this request tried to create an infinite loop. We do not allow such things here. We are a professional website!

I will have to do some work with mass to see about size.  Any tips on where to start?



Start with densities.

Silver = 10.5
Palladium =12.02
Gold = 19.32
Platinum = 21.45

All these densities are grams per cubic centimeter, (which is 1000 cubic millimeters).

Now you just need to calculate the volume of each size coin you want.
Wikipedia will give you diameters and thicknesses of all the US coins, and many international ones.
Here's a cylinder solver: www.online-calculators.co.uk/volumetric/...
This will get you the volumes of various coins. Radius is half the diameter, height is the thickness.
This will get you a result in cubic millimeters.

Divide the result by 1000 (converting to cubic centimeters) and then multiply by density to get the weight of a coin that size, made of whatever.

For instance, a US quarter has a diameter of 24.26mm and thickness of 1.75mm
Diameter divided by 2 = 12.13 radius.
Put that in the cylinder solver (with height 1.75) gets us 809.2529499999994
We'll round that off to 809.253 cu mm
Divide by 1000 = 0.809253
Times 19.32 = 15.635 grams (rounded off)
Ta da. Rinse and repeat with each size coin.

Note that 15.635 grams is 0.502676923 troy ounces. Not too shabby.
That's 0.551 avoirdupois ounces.
This is a HEAVY coin... it's almost 3 times the weight of a normal quarter.

Note gold was traditionally alloyed down to 22kt (91.666% pure) when minting coins... the alloy added just enough durability that the coins wouldn't wear down significantly while in circulation. Modern golden Eagle coins use the same rate of alloying.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Gold_Eagl...

This adds 9.1% to the total weight of the item, to have the requisite amount of pure metal.
Thus a 10 gram gold coin would weigh 10.91 grams, the .91 being the alloy, but the coin has a 10 gram value. This part can be skipped for game purposes unless you really want it. If all the coins are equally alloyed, then the extra weight of alloy is meaningless.


0.502676923


AlexandraErin: If last season was any indication, I think Encounters is pretty much the elemental opposite of "organized" play!

The abstract ammo rules in the new GW do seem strange to me.  Especially since all other RPGs I've every played, including prior GW editions, had the players keeping track of their ammo.  I don't think I'll use the abstract ammo rules but will continue w/ what I'm used to.  I've been playing w/ the same players for several years & I think the new GW ammo rules won't make much sense to them anyway.

I suppose that explains Omega Tech too.  It seems after every use, there's a chance it has become depleted & useless (unless it can be salvaged).  What's the in-game rationale behind that rule?  Omega Tech is unreliable so every time you use it, the Tech might short out or malfunction so badly as to render it inert?  I suppose just like the new ammo rules, power cells are irrelevant.  The Omega Tech has enough power to use it until you fail a check & it's depleted?

I've already had my players roll their characters and select weapons. As I expected, the ammo rule completely dissuaded them from selecting firearms. Guns are cool and ammo should be a somewhat rare commodity, so I've got a couple approachs in mind to feature firearms more prominently without completely tossing out the rules as written.

1. Let ammo stack. One "ammo" unit is either used up or retained as it suggests in the text, but they can carry reserve ammo if they've found or traded for it. Ammo then sort of becomes a daily + N power, N being how much else they have on them. I plan on giving the players ammo as loot every now and again whether they have a gun or not, might encourage them to trade some ancient junk for a firearm eventually. I do want to get the players to strategize about what supplies to gather before an expedition and give noncombat situations a spotlight semi-regularly.

2. Guns become melee weapons when empty. Gives firearms a little utility so the players don't feel that if they expend all their ammo they might as well give up on firearms. Like the idea of including descriptions of pistol whipping and swinging rifle butts, think it heightens the suspense.

The abstract ammo rules in the new GW do seem strange to me.  Especially since all other RPGs I've every played, including prior GW editions, had the players keeping track of their ammo.




I've played a lot of RPGs where you DON'T track your ammo at all. Under that rationale, no game should be tracking ammo.
(Spirit of the Century is awesome. The only way you can run out of ammo is to take a feat allowing you to. Of course, your One Last Shot Has To Count, and you get big bonuses on it, but then you're out).

The problem with tracking ammo is that it's an incredibly detailed thing, and GW as a whole is incredibly abstract - including the equipment list.
You need a specific list of guns, and then the correct amount of ammo for each, and the correct type of ammo for each. Not to mention extra rules for fire modes and more.

M-16 has a switch. In one mode, it's semi-auto single shot.
In the other, it fires 3 round bursts.
So how do you track that for ammo? Does burst mode use 1 shot or 3?
If it uses 3, how is it different from single shot mode?
Now you need to make special rules for burst fire.

Now Bob has an AK-47. Great. Except it can't use M-16 ammo, so yeah. It's also fully automatic. What are the rules for THAT?
The best part is how seemingly identical ammo isn't.
.38 ACP and .380 ACP are completely different and incompatible bullets (but .38 Super Auto is the same as .38 ACP). The 9x18mm Makarov bullet is incompatible with 9x18mm Ultra despite both being 9x18mm.

The GW equipment system is abstract. Counting bullets is not abstract, and thus is incompatible with the rules.
AlexandraErin: If last season was any indication, I think Encounters is pretty much the elemental opposite of "organized" play!

The abstract ammo rules in the new GW do seem strange to me.  Especially since all other RPGs I've every played, including prior GW editions, had the players keeping track of their ammo.




...
The GW equipment system is abstract. Counting bullets is not abstract, and thus is incompatible with the rules.


I like the the abstract rules for ammo as well.  Actually I like the abstract rule a bit modified to satisfy our group's needs.   But counting ammo does not have to be all that detailed and has been a standard for many rpgs for decades includinng DnD 4e.  I can understand if someone does not like counting bullets, but counting ammo is far from incompatible with the rules of GW.  The game is by far the most interpretive, open ended rpg I have seen in a long time. 
The other issue with tracking ammo specifically is that a basic attack is not "I shoot my gun at that guy once and expend exactly X bullets" as it might be portrayed in other games.

A basic attack is "Over the course of roughly 6 seconds, I take various shots, depending on my training and level of skill and concern for ammo conservation, based on the opportunities provided to me," exactly as it is for melee attacks - or really, any given power.  One turn it might mean three quick,  controlled bursts at a target ducking and weaving through cover... that does 12 damage.  The next turn it might mean bracing on some sort of terrain and laying down a hail of full-auto fire... which also does 12 damage.

That said, I have also considered the idea of letting players "stack" ammo when they find it.   
All previous 6 editions of GW did not have abstract ammo rules so this version of GW is quite different in that way.  I've never heard of Spirit of the Century but d20 Modern, the closest version to the new GW/D&D 4e, did require one to keep track of ammo.

As some people point out the current abstract ammo rules discourage players from choosing guns over bows/crossbows b/c you can only shoot once per encounter or risk losing all your ammo. This seems inherently illogical. Guns are more lethal than bows/crossbows. That's why modern armies use them & not the more primitive weapons.  There's something just strange to me that one has a gun but simply has no idea how much ammo one has for it.  Or that any modern gun can only be fired once per encounter, that also seems bizarre.  I'm not suggesting unlimited ammo or letting PCs find huge caches, but if ammo becomes a treasure in & of itself, then the hunt for ammo, esp. the right caliber, becomes an interesting part of the game and certainly would be part of any post-apocalypse setting.  My experience has been that players did not find it hard to keep track of their own ammo nor did it consume a large amount of game time.

BTW, what's the logic or in-game rationale behind Omega Tech possibly being depleted after every use?  Is it b/c Omega Tech is unreliable & that every usage might end up w/ the tech item malfunctioning?