Felinoid Novice Power

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So, what happens if one of your rolls to hit crits and the other hits, but doesn't crit. does the whole thing crit?
A: Extrapolate the damage. 1 hit = 1d6 + Dex modifier + 2x level. 2 hits = 2d6 + Dex modifier + 2x level + blinding. This means that if you hit twice, you roll 2d6 (not 3d6). So it's 1d6 per hit with blinding as an additional side effect for 2 hits.

What do we have if you crit on one but not the other? The one that crits is considered a critical hit and the d6 roll is maximized. The one that hits but does not crit is still a 1d6 roll.

So in this case, you would have 1d6 + 6 + Dex modifier + 2x level + blinding with a 2-hit attack where one hit was a natural 20 and the other was a normal hit.
I think that's the fairest interpretation.

If I was running the game, I'd make the whole things maximized if either die was a crit.  Just because combat is so brutal and it's never a bad thing to let the players do what?  An extra 5 points of damage assuming they rolled minimum on that second d6. 
Personally, I would grant the crit on the hit that got it. It is two attacks, not one and just because you critted with one doesn't mean you critted with both.

A little deduction and inference can go a long way to figuring this stuff out. If you hit once and do 1d6 damage or if you hit twice and do 2d6 damage then it's only logical to follow that each hit does 1d6 damage.

Nothing hard to figure out there. If you crit on your first attack and hit with the second, the first attack maxes at 6 points and the second is 1d6. If you crit on both attacks you get 12 points. If you crit on your second attack you get 1d6 for the first and 6 for the second.

*snap* done.
we actually did maximize 1 die and not the other. he happened to still get the blind because he hit with both.

honestly, I was a little surprised. I thought combat was not that brutal on my guys, running the stuff from the book.
Y'know, I'd thought of using a mechanic like that before, an the question of a crit never occured to me.  There are several ways you could go with it. 

You could look at the number of hits determining damage, so if the first attack is a hit, the second is only to determine how much damage is done - in which case, only the first attack determines whether the hit is a crit.  If the second attack hits, and crits, that'd be a crit, also.  But a 1st attack hit, 2nd crit, would just be a regular hit for the higher damage figure. 

You could look at both attack rolls as alternate attack rolls on one power, so if either crits, the whole power crits.

You could look at them separately, so if one crits, it's d6 is maximized, and if both crit both d6's are maximized - the problem with that is that other crit effects would both be doubled up in the unlikely event you got two crits.   So if you were 8th level and did +2d10 on a crit, you'd do 6+d6 +2d10 on a single crit, and 12 + 4d10 if both rolls were crits.  At that point, you're getting awefully close to them just being two separate attacks.

 

 

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Y'know, I'd thought of using a mechanic like that before, an the question of a crit never occured to me.  There are several ways you could go with it. 

You could look at the number of hits determining damage, so if the first attack is a hit, the second is only to determine how much damage is done - in which case, only the first attack determines whether the hit is a crit.  If the second attack hits, and crits, that'd be a crit, also.  But a 1st attack hit, 2nd crit, would just be a regular hit for the higher damage figure. 

You could look at both attack rolls as alternate attack rolls on one power, so if either crits, the whole power crits.

You could look at them separately, so if one crits, it's d6 is maximized, and if both crit both d6's are maximized - the problem with that is that other crit effects would both be doubled up in the unlikely event you got two crits.   So if you were 8th level and did +2d10 on a crit, you'd do 6+d6 +2d10 on a single crit, and 12 + 4d10 if both rolls were crits.  At that point, you're getting awefully close to them just being two separate attacks.

The rules as written stipulate that you make the attack 2 times. Hit (one attack - does not stipulate whether it was the first or the second attack that hit) it does 1d6 + ... on A Hit (both attacks - implies that both attacks hit) you do 2d6 + ...

That breaks down to me as 1d6 per hit, they just lumped it together if both hit. If you crit on one hit (either the first or the second) and you miss with the other, you max the damage for that one hit. If you hit with the second as well, since it is a distinct and seperate attack roll, you only crit on it if you roll a natural 20 on it as well.

So yes, since it is indeed 2 distinct attack rolls, you crit on one or both, you roll an additional 1d10 or 2d10 if both crit.

The rules do not state that criticals happen only per power, but per d20 roll of natural 20 or higher on an attack roll. Powers that allow for 2 distinct attack rolls therefore have the possibility of rolling natural 20s for each distinct attack roll and therfore provide 2 distinct criticals.

Yeah, I think treating them as a sort of faux 2x 1d6 damage attacks is the way to go. I think the main reason they wrote the power the way they did was to avoid the double modifier stacking cheese that goes on so much with powers like Twin Strike and Stab&Throw. I think they wanted a 'claw them twice' power but wanted to avoid doubling things, and forgot to take into account crits.

Really, treating it like people have suggested isnt that different than say, a Close Blast power.
Multiple Attack Rolls, One Damage Roll, apply max damage to critically hit targets, and normal damage to the rest. All you're house ruling is how much of the damage gets maxed.

And by extention, as the above suggested, means you COULD make an argument that you can crit twice and add twice your crit damage on the power. I'm not sure if thats in the spirit of the design (given my assumption about what they intended), but I'd probably ok it if a player really wanted. I mean, after all, a double crit is a 1 in 400 chance, right? Not a big deal.
As in 4e D&D, 'attack' is ambiguous.  Slashing Claws is odd in that it has two attack rolls against a single target, but a single damage resolution against that target, even if both hit.  In an exception-based rule set, 'odd' could mean that it breaks the ususal rules in some way.

If it were meant to function like a pair of attacks, each could just do 1d6+DEX+level, and the end effect would be virtually identical (you'd do a little less damage on a single hit, a little more on two).  Since they went to all the trouble of making an exception in that sense, maybe it's not intended to work exactly like two attacks in every other sense, either?

I can't think of a lot of reasons to do it that way.  One would be to make the attack less swingy in terms of damage.  Which would argue for an RAI of aplying the extra effects of a crit only once. :shrug:

None of the plausible interpretations seem like they'd be a major problem, though.   The only one that'd strike me as unreasonable would be ruling that both attacks had to crit in order to get any crit effect when both attacks hit.

 

 

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I think they started out wanting to make it 1d6 + Dex + level per hit, so that on two hits it would just be cumulative: 2d6 + 2x Dex + 2x level. That would actually be on par with the other novice at wills, dealing a little extra guaranteed minimum damage (extra Dex mod) instead of some special effect. However, they decided they wanted to add a special effect (clawing at the eyes to cause blindness) which is what resulted in the weirdness you see in the power as written.

Because it's so ambiguous, any approach to the power is a house rule. But the way I'm going to treat it is that one crit maximizes the whole thing and applies special effects like it was any other power, and two crits have no extra effect because getting to apply the bonus damage or other effects a second time is too good.
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