Overcharge Bonus....

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Yes I know this has been hashed and rehashed over and over but I was thinking maybe we got it wrong in the rules clarification sticky.....let me make my argument and please feel free to comment.

Here is the section in question on page 34

Traits: Mutant type identifies the primary ability score for the origin and the origin's power source.You gain a +2 bonus to overcharge rolls on Alpha powers that have the same power source as your primary origin. Each origin also shows the abilities you gain that are specific to your origin. You gain Traits from both our origins. If two traits can't be reconciled, you get only the trait of your primary origin.


It seems to me that if your origin's have the same type such as Hawkoid and Plant, which are both bio you would receive a +4 to bio over charges since the traits can be reconciled. But if you were a Hawkoid and a Hypercognitive you would only receive a +2 to bio since they are bio and Psi respectively and can not be reconciled).

I am think this line is in the paragraph above is why I feel this way, " You gain Traits from both our origins". Also that mutant type and the overcharge bonus is under traits.

Thus for Engineered Human the big benefit is that you gain a +4 to any primary origin and since other +2 can not be reconciled they are discarded.

Please feel free to agree and/or disagree.

  I do not agree or disagree with you, as I have been trying to figure this out myself.

  I was thinking of going with the interpretation of the rules which says that you only get the overcharge bonus from your primary origin.  Thus being, it would not stack with a secondary origin.

  The only reason I find this confusing, is that engineered human as far as I am able to interpret, always become the secondary origin.  This makes their +2 overcharge bonus to all useless, unless the players have been able to choose their origins.

  I would like to hear what others think. 
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I think there is something amiss with the editing of this particular issue.  I really wish someone over at WotC would address the issue officially.

I am also amused that this topic has come up again.
Wondering if anybody is going to SNAP again and come in guns ablazin', as has happened in the past.
No snapping.

It's not a confusion at all except for those who aren't paying attention to the rules.

You only get your overcharge bonus from your primary origin. It states that clearly twice in the rules. No matter what your secondary origin is, the overcharge bonus does not apply. Period. It doesn't matter if the secondary origin has no overcharge type, it doesn't matter if the overcharge types are the same. You only get your overcharge bonus from your primary origin. End of story.

If you want to house rule that they stack or you get both, have at it. But since we can only talk reliably about the rules as written (known as RAW) and not about what the designers were thinking, then we have to go by RAW if that's what you choose to do. Otherwise, house rule away! It's your game.
Yeah, I can only see giving people the +2 for the primary. Otherwise, is there really any difference between primary and secondary? 

Even then, a +4 means you are going to overcharge on a 6 or better, which means you're overcharging on a whole lot of rolls. 
No snapping.

It's not a confusion at all except for those who aren't paying attention to the rules.

You only get your overcharge bonus from your primary origin. It states that clearly twice in the rules. No matter what your secondary origin is, the overcharge bonus does not apply. Period. It doesn't matter if the secondary origin has no overcharge type, it doesn't matter if the overcharge types are the same. You only get your overcharge bonus from your primary origin. End of story.

If you want to house rule that they stack or you get both, have at it. But since we can only talk reliably about the rules as written (known as RAW) and not about what the designers were thinking, then we have to go by RAW if that's what you choose to do. Otherwise, house rule away! It's your game.



So what about engineered humans?
What about them? If they're your secondary origin, they don't grant their overcharge bonus. What's so confusing?

General rule: You gain the traits of both of your origins.
Specific rule: You gain the overcharge bonus of your primary origin.

If Engineered Human is your secondary origin, what do you think happens? Not rocket science.

Answer for those who can't deduce or infer from the rules: Engineered Humans, when they are secondary origins, do not grant their overcharge bonuses.

Not hard at all.
What about them? If they're your secondary origin, they don't grant their overcharge bonus. What's so confusing?

General rule: You gain the traits of both of your origins.
Specific rule: You gain the overcharge bonus of your primary origin.

If Engineered Human is your secondary origin, what do you think happens? Not rocket science.

Answer for those who can't deduce or infer from the rules: Engineered Humans, when they are secondary origins, do not grant their overcharge bonuses.

Not hard at all.



It was clearly intended that Engineered Human would always have priority as your primary origin no matter how you obtained it.  If you roll swarm / swarm and so get Engineered Human, then Engineered Human is your primary and swarm is your secondary.

Honestly though even though my players are rolling origins, even when it's not EH I let them choose which of the two rolls they want to be primary.  If they roll cockroach / telekinetic and want telekinetic to be the primary half, that's fine by me. I don't see anything to be gained by not being accommodating of minor things like that. 
What about them? If they're your secondary origin, they don't grant their overcharge bonus. What's so confusing?

General rule: You gain the traits of both of your origins.
Specific rule: You gain the overcharge bonus of your primary origin.

If Engineered Human is your secondary origin, what do you think happens? Not rocket science.

Answer for those who can't deduce or infer from the rules: Engineered Humans, when they are secondary origins, do not grant their overcharge bonuses.

Not hard at all.



It was clearly intended that Engineered Human would always have priority as your primary origin no matter how you obtained it.  If you roll swarm / swarm and so get Engineered Human, then Engineered Human is your primary and swarm is your secondary.

Honestly though even though my players are rolling origins, even when it's not EH I let them choose which of the two rolls they want to be primary.  If they roll cockroach / telekinetic and want telekinetic to be the primary half, that's fine by me. I don't see anything to be gained by not being accommodating of minor things like that. 



I agree with Fuzzypaws.  EH should always be the primary origin.
What about them? If they're your secondary origin, they don't grant their overcharge bonus. What's so confusing?

General rule: You gain the traits of both of your origins.
Specific rule: You gain the overcharge bonus of your primary origin.

If Engineered Human is your secondary origin, what do you think happens? Not rocket science.

Answer for those who can't deduce or infer from the rules: Engineered Humans, when they are secondary origins, do not grant their overcharge bonuses.

Not hard at all.



you are very understanding, ExcalibursZ. should we link them to the thread were i asked the very same question?
What about them? If they're your secondary origin, they don't grant their overcharge bonus. What's so confusing?

General rule: You gain the traits of both of your origins.
Specific rule: You gain the overcharge bonus of your primary origin.

If Engineered Human is your secondary origin, what do you think happens? Not rocket science.

Answer for those who can't deduce or infer from the rules: Engineered Humans, when they are secondary origins, do not grant their overcharge bonuses.

Not hard at all.



It was clearly intended that Engineered Human would always have priority as your primary origin no matter how you obtained it.  If you roll swarm / swarm and so get Engineered Human, then Engineered Human is your primary and swarm is your secondary.

Honestly though even though my players are rolling origins, even when it's not EH I let them choose which of the two rolls they want to be primary.  If they roll cockroach / telekinetic and want telekinetic to be the primary half, that's fine by me. I don't see anything to be gained by not being accommodating of minor things like that. 


Umm, no it wasn't. What does the rulebook say on page 34 under "Determining Your Character Origins"? The very last sentence before the table? "If your second roll is the same as the first, then your second origin is Engineered Human (page 56)."

That is word-for-word from the rules. How is that "clearly intended" that if you roll swarm/swarm your primary origin is Engineered Human and swarm is your secondary?

It doesn't. Engineered Human has overcharge bonuses because you can choose your origins if you use the rules in the sidebar on page 35 under "Rolling or Choosing Origins?".

VERY simple to understand.

Nice house rules there, keep playing that way if that suits you. You're not playing by the RAW (rules as written) but it's your game afterall.

We can only really talk about the RAW when discussing what's in the book and only about what's written in the book. House rules such as yours are not in the book and are therefore not RAW.

So when I keep saying over and over and over again that Engineered Humans do not provide an overcharge bonus because according to the RAW they are your secondary origin, then I am giving you the exact ruling in the book. I'm not looking ath what was intended whether it is clear or muddled, I'm not making assumptions, I am providing a specific page number with a specific entry that is written in the book.

You may choose to implement it any way you choose, just stop arguing that it's not what's in the book or it's what the developers intended. Unless you're a developer of the game, you have no clue and can only go by what's in the book if you go RAW or use your own house rules to get around the things you don't like or don't understand.
Yeah, I also let EH characters always get the +2 overcharge to all sources.  I also allow the player to pick which origin is primary and which is secondary.
You gain a +2 bonus to overcharge rolls on Alpha powers that have the same power source as your primary origin.

This is pretty clear.

. You gain Traits from both our origins.

Since these rules are both listed under 'traits,' there's a clear implication that the first is a 'trait.'  The second aplies to all traits, obviously.  So it would aply to the first.  Except, the first is more specific, since it's talking about a /single/ trait, while the second talks about traits in general.  So, the first rule holds.  +2 overcharge bonus from your /primary/ origin.

 

 

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not trying to be a pain it was really in the reading of this line

 "You gain a +2 bonus to overcharge rolls on Alpha powers that have the same power source as your primary origin."

I am thinking they meant to say....

"You only gain the overcharge bonus from your primary origin." 

when I read it I thought that your primary origin set your primary power source and that you could only get a overcharge bonus on your primary source. Hence my reading of of the "reconcile" of traits....either way not that big of deal. Just want some thoughts on the subject because it does seem to poorly worded in the book.

thanks for posting 
yep. they defiantly could have worded it better.
not trying to be a pain it was really in the reading of this line

 "You gain a +2 bonus to overcharge rolls on Alpha powers that have the same power source as your primary origin."

I am thinking they meant to say....

"You only gain the overcharge bonus from your primary origin."



Here's the more likely answer.

The rules were written as they are now.
"You gain a +2 bonus to overcharge rolls on Alpha powers that have the same power source as your primary origin."

But something changed between writing that and publication.
What changed?

They added "+2 to Dark overcharge" (or Bio or Psi) to the traits section of ALL the origins.

As the rules are written, there is no need to include the +2 bit under the traits section, because it's covered by the general rule.

HOWEVER: Humans HAVE no power source, and thus would not get an overcharge bonus under that rule.
As a result, they included the +2 all in the text, to ensure that humans DO get an overcharge bonus.

That's a specific to override the general... because the general would give them +0.

The editing team, going over it all, may not have understood this, or perhaps they just wanted to make things VERY clear (not realizing how unclear it would become), by adding the +2 text to all the origins.

This looks very consistent and clear, and frankly it is a good editing decision in general. It just goofed a bit. Very inadvertent.

The thing is, it's not even a real error on their part. The vast majority of people had no issues interpreting how it works. However, a few people (legitimately) parse it differently and get a different result.
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This is my RAW intepretation.  Characters gain a +2 to overcharge alpha powers from their primary origins.  In addition, under the traits section, they gain another +2 to from their origin traits.

So primary power overcharge is +4 (+6 if. secondary power source matches), secondary is +2 or 0.
So engineered human is +6, +2, +2.

That is exacty by raw with no interpretation from errata.  It also makes sense to me.
This is my RAW intepretation.  Characters gain a +2 to overcharge alpha powers from their primary origins.  In addition, under the traits section, they gain another +2 to from their origin traits.

So primary power overcharge is +4 (+6 if. secondary power source matches), secondary is +2 or 0.
So engineered human is +6, +2, +2.

That is exacty by raw with no interpretation from errata.  It also makes sense to me.



i thought 2+2=4.
I've seen lots of mistakes/oversights in the GW rules... this matter is simply one of them (i.e. nothing to get worked up over). Since the writers mentioned in multiple locations that you get an overcharge bonus from your primary origin, I reckon that is most likely their intent (even though I prefer to play with bonuses from both origins... it's more intuitive). And I'm almost certain they didn't consider how this might affect Engineered Humans.

Curious: has anyone seen a pregenerated PC for GW, or a sample of a correctly filled out character sheet?

I suspect the bit about reconciling traits was intended to help with situations where a primary origin may provide something like Resist Fire 5 or -1 Speed and the secondary origin provides the counter, like Vuln Fire 5 or Speed +1, e.g Pyrokinetic Plant or Seismic Speedster.
This is my RAW intepretation.  Characters gain a +2 to overcharge alpha powers from their primary origins.  In addition, under the traits section, they gain another +2 to from their origin traits.

So primary power overcharge is +4 (+6 if. secondary power source matches), secondary is +2 or 0.
So engineered human is +6, +2, +2.

That is exacty by raw with no interpretation from errata.  It also makes sense to me.

Well, that's a consistent interpretation.  You're just assuming that the +2 bonus granted for your primary origin in the trait section is distinct from the identical +2 granted under each origin.    So, your primary origin's bonus is +4 - +2 to it's source from the trait section, +2 for it's own entry - and you also add your secondary origin's bonus.   A Primary Engineered Human would miss out, though, since it doesn't have a source, it wouldn't get that +2, just the +2 to all three, plus the +2 of it's secondary origin.

It seems a little crazy, but it's tidy enough.



 

 

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i thought 2+2=4.



It is.
This is my RAW intepretation.  Characters gain a +2 to overcharge alpha powers from their primary origins.  In addition, under the traits section, they gain another +2 to from their origin traits.

So primary power overcharge is +4 (+6 if. secondary power source matches), secondary is +2 or 0.
So engineered human is +6, +2, +2.

That is exacty by raw with no interpretation from errata.  It also makes sense to me.



Well, at least someone realized what his argument has the natural conclusion of, as I enumerate here: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

Read that post and the one following, however. Most people seem to forget that second point: Namely, that this business of quoting from the part about gaining your overcharge bonus from your promary origin IS FROM THE TRAITS DEFINITION. Which means it is specific, and the rule about gaining all the traits is general.
if you have 2 origins each providing an over charge bonus(saying we house rule it). 2 origins with a +2 bonus=+4. if they go to the same power source.  there's an extra +2 coming from what another origin?
if you have 2 origins each providing an over charge bonus(saying we house rule it). 2 origins with a +2 bonus=+4. if they go to the same power source.  there's an extra +2 coming from what another origin?


I believe the extra +2 is coming from the interpretation that you gain a +2 bonus to overcharge rolls on Alpha powers that have the same power source as your primary origin.

In other words:
You gain +2 from the above rule (page 34, Using Character Origins, Traits)
You gain the overcharge bonus from the Mutant Type line of your primary origin
You gain the overcharge bonus from the Mutant Type line of your secondary origin

Result: If I'm an Android/Engineered Human I have +2 Bio, +6 Dark, +2 Psi because Android gives +2 Dark (Mutant Type line, page 36), the Traits rule gives me +2 to Dark overcharge because the Android's power source is Dark, and I get +2 to each from Engineered Human.

At least that's how 2 + 2 = 6 since it seems people are going to add up every bonus possible in the rules. I'm surprised that they haven't scoured every page looking for every instance of bonuses to something and saying that because it's listed on each of those pages they gain that bonus multiple times. Wheeee! Comprehension: EPIC FAIL.
Wizards knows all about how bonuses stack and how to write rules that are clear about which bonuses stack and which do not.  The same people who made Gamma World are the ones who need to remain cognizant of power bonuses, feat bonuses, racial bonuses, enhancement bonuses, untyped bonuses, etc., when they work on 4E products.

If they didn't want origin bonuses stacking, they would have either made bonus types or they would have been explicit about it in another way.

Your interpretation relies on inserting statements of exclusivity that just aren't there.  It would have been so easy to remove the +2 overcharge bonuses from the trait sections in each origin.  To put in a simple statement that you *only* get a +2 overcharge bonus based on your powersource and not have any bonuses listed in the traits.  To give Engineered Humans a named trait that gives them +2 on all overcharging.  They could have made them all a non-stacking Origin type bonus.

There were so many ways and opportunities for the authors to explicitly state your position and they did not.

This is an editing failure and until there is errata/updates spelling it out explicitly, +6 to overcharge is possible by RAW.
So Basicly your primary origin counts twice because it says it twice in the rule book.
It does not say it twice.  It says once you get a +2 overcharge to your primary origins power source when playing an Alpha power that matches.  It also says you get all the traits of both origins unless they conflict.  Under each origin it gives you a +2 bonus to a powersource.
So Basicly your primary origin counts twice because it says it twice in the rule book.

Yes.

Well, except in the case of primary EH.  Since they have no powersource, they don't benefit from the p34 rule, only their origin entry.  So, under this reading of the rules, it's always better to be secondary EH, so you don't miss out on the +2 to your primary power source.  A secondary EH is +6 +2 +2, while a primary EH is +4 +2 +2.

Under each origin it gives you a +2 bonus to a powersource.

Yes, which just happens to be the origin's powersource.



 

 

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Under each origin it gives you a +2 bonus to a powersource.

Yes, which just happens to be the origin's powersource.


Isn't it funny how that coincidentally happens? Hmm, the designers are really good to us, giving us all these bonuses XD
i have made no such quote.
With all of the discussion I have seen, I'm going to go with the easy and still fairly random +4 if the power matches your primary, +2 if it matches your secondary, 0 if it doesn't match either. That might not be the Rules as Written, but it's something I know I can get my group to agree to.

And Engineered Humans - when we finally get one, we'll figure out what they really need for overcharge. 
I've been allowing both origin's overcharge bonuses stack in my home game because I think it's more fun. But I think this is what the rules indicate based on the rules as written. I'll map the rules logically.

You get all the Level 1 traits of your primary and secondary origins.
(You get A, B, C, etc.)

You gain a + 2 bonus the overcharge rolls from your primary origin.
(You get A. Hence you get A, B, C, etc.)

There is nothing in the second statement that negates the any part of the first statement. The second statement is redundant.

However, I'm guessing that the intent was to say you only get the bonus from the primary origin - but that's not what they wrote.
Unfortunately, editing errors creape in and sometimes rules that were clear,  get muddled, as they try to make things clear someplace else. 

I was confused by the page 34 text (+2 to Source matching Primary Origin)  and page  31 (You get all traits from both origins).  I saw them as contradictions where I was assuming page 31 won out.  Others saw them as combining, and others saw them as specific/general, so page 34 won out. 

The simple fact that there is three different interpretation begs for a clarification from WOTC.

Add this to the fact, that people also interpret different about EH being primary or secondary origin (though this is less confusing since their doesn't appear to be a conflict in the rules), create all of the debate.

Meantime,  you have to decide on how often you want your players to be able to overcharge. The options below assume random origin with EH always being secondary.

Option 1:  +2 to Source matching Primary Origin

    Non-EH Origin
        One Source:    65% success (+2)
        Two Sources:  55% success

    EH Origin
        One Source:    65% success (+2)
        Two Sources:  55% success

Option 2:  All Level 1 Traits from Both Origins (including Overcharge)

    Non-EH Origin
       Two Sources:    65% success (+2)
       One Source:      55% success

       or both origins from same source

        One Source:    75% success (+4)
        Two Sources:  55% success

    EH Origin
        One Source:    75% success (+4)
        Two Sources:  65% success (+2)

Option 3:  +2 to Source matching Primary Origin AND All Level 1 Traits from Both Origins (including Overcharge)
    Non-EH Origin
       One Source:      75% success (+4)
       One Source:      65% success (+2)
       One Source:      55% success

       or both origins from same source

        One Source:    85% success (+6)
        Two Sources:  55% success

    EH Origin
        One Source:    85% success (+6)
        Two Sources:  65% success (+2)

Personally, I think Option 3 is way to powerful,  since part of the fun is supposed to be failing sometimes on overcharge.  And since EH don't appear to suffer much in any other way, they appear to be the origin that is most desirable to min-maxers.

But Option 1 makes the EH overcharge only come into play if players get to pick their origin. 

I prefer Option 2.

Until official ruling,  you may pick your favorite poison,  but now you know the impact of your decision.
Option 1 is the one I use. It's the most conservative of the bunch, definitely.
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When I run its been option #1.  
But my real question is how we go about getting a ruling on this as this has been an issue since day one.

You left out primary EH:

Option 1:

All Sources:  65% success (+2)

Option 2:

One Source:    75% success (+4)
Two Sources:  65% success (+2)
(same as secondary)

Option 3:

One Source:    75% success (+4)
Two Sources:  65% success (+2)
(not as good as secondary!)


Since it's the only one where being primary-EH is /better/ than being secondary-EH, I'll go with Option 1 as the most sensible.  That it also gives the smallest bonuses just might have something to do with it from my perspective as a GM, of course...

 

 

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