Sticky for Unofficial Rule Clarifications?

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I do see a problem with letting duplicates use alpha and omega cards since dupes are not allowed to. They are obscenely powerful as is and allowing them to use the alpha and omega stuff is pushing the double trouble power to an encounter power instead of an at-will.

I guess I'm not seeing the obscenity.  If the alpha/omega is expended, what's the big deal about using it from an origin square further away?  Sometimes, like when tossing a Dream Grenade (which occassionally has a larger-than-expected radius) it might be a real benefit, most of the time, it won't do much more than let you avoid cover penalties or squeeze some extra range out of a power.

 

 

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An initiative slot is not defined like that. If someone goes on initiative 11 and another on initiative 12, the slot before 12 is #11, the slot before #11 is 10, the slot after #12 is 13.

Having people go in the same slot is fine and happens all the time. Their initiative modifier dictates who goes first. If initiative modifiers are equal, I usually go to dex mod.

Anyway, the point here is that the duplicate goes in the slot folling yours. If you're in slot 11 then slot 10 is the next slet behind yours. Slots are not divided into sub-slots that you choose to name slots as well. A slot is a slot is a slot.

I'm sorry but it doesn't work like that. There aren't actually "slots" as such defined in the rules, that's just a term of convenience players use to describe what is more properly called "a given creature X's place in the initiative order." Any number of creatures can have the same initiative count and it doesn't mean they all share the same "slot", they still go one after the other in the initiative order, and if you create a duplicate he goes right after you before the next person in the initiative order.

A key thing to remember is that turn based combat is trying to abstractly represent "real" combat wherein everything is happening nearly simultaneously, all in a six second combat round. Creatures do not actually take turns, and if they did they would be moving at near the speed of light in a large battle with many participants.  As you are summoning your duplicate, it is already acting. It can be seen in this sense that the "standard action" required to summon the duplicate is actually distraction from reconciling two different sets of sensory input, deciding multiple things to do at once, etc.


Fair enough. Your duplicate goes right after you in initiative order.
They are obscenely powerful as is. . .

I guess I'm not seeing the obscenity.



IMO, having a single power that effectly lets you:
 1. Ignore Cover
 2. Ignore many forms of blocking terrain.
 3. Pass over terrain and obstacles to strike an opponent
 4. Create something that occupies space to block enemies
 5. Fire around corners
 6. Increase the range of ranged powers by your speed.
 7. Give your melee attacks a range equal to your speed+1
 8. Set the origin square of close attacks up to your speed in sqaures away.
 9. Take actions on the other side of barriers you cant move to.
is seriously overpowered in terms of balance when compared to other traits/powers. Combined with certain other traits and powers makes it even worse. Its not that the power does anything that other things cant - its that it duplicates SO MANY other things.

Add on top of that that there are serious gaps in the rules on how it works that munchkins and ruleslawyers can really go to town with it. . . its a pretty OP power.

Now do you see why some people who call it an obscenity?

As a note though. . . while I think this power is INSANELY overbalanced in comparison to other powers in terms of how much it lets you do, I do NOT think it overbalances the game. In fact, so far in my group its proven quite entertaining without overshadowing the other characters too much.
1,2,5,6,7, & 8 are all things you can do by moving, anyway.  3 could be done by flight.  9 with teleport. 

4. OK, you can create a 1 hp blocker. 

So, you can psuedo-move, in the sense that you 'move' to set up an action, but you don't /really/ move, since, when it's over, you're where you started. 

So it's kinda like Teleport, for positioning, but not for getting yourself out of trouble. 


Starting to not look useless, I have to admit.

 

 

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1,2,5,6,7, & 8 are all things you can do by moving, anyway.



Sure, but I'm let me elaborate a little further on those, since you still seem a bit dismissive of them ;P

#1, #2, and #5 - Sure, you could avoid cover, obstacles, and blocking trerrain by moving. But when you do that, the enemy can shoot back at you. With Double Trouble, you can shoot at them safely from behind something, attacking them every round that they have to spend moving towards you. Adding in the fact that your range is huge because of the power. . . that can be ugly.

#6 and #7 - Don't forget to consider the total range of a single round of actions. You can move your speed and make a Double, and then it can move your speed, and THEN attack at range. That is some serious closing power. Its the equivalent of being able to double move AND attack each round. Depending on how you treat condition application to your double, you could even run, double trouble, move, and attack, for a total movement range of 19! from the spot you started that round. Very few characters can move that kind of distance AND still attack with melee weapon in a single round. Especially since Charging isnt included. If you DO include charging in your game, (which many house rule in because of Felinoid) it gets even worse.

Minimum Charging Distance (Seismic Doppleganger in Heavy Armor, using shared conditions):
4 (Move) + 5 (Double Trouble) + 4 (Move) + 4 (Charge) = 17.

Maximum Charging Distance (Speedster Doppleganger with Light Armor and no shared conditions):
10 (Run) + 5 (Double Trouble) + 8 (Move) + 8 (Charge) = THIRTY ONE.

So, from a standstill, a Doppleganger could hit a target with a melee weapon who was standing 31 squares away. And to top it off, the target would still have to move another 20 squares to hit him back!
Oh, and compare that to the average melee user:

6 (Move).

+1 If your DM is generous an allows reach weapons.
Not entirely dismissive.  An extra move action is definitely worth something, even if it can't be used to get you away from somewhere you don't want to be.

Really, it's a lot like charging.  When you charge, you get an extra move, that's limited (it can only be use to move directly towards a target) and still get your standard action (which is also limited, MBA only).  Double Trouble is really quite similar to that, conceptually, now that I think of it.  You spend an standard and get a limitted move and limitted standard - plus a minor as a bonus.  Obviously there are fewer limitations on what you can do with those actions, and there's the nature of the duplicate, as well. 

I'm not any closer to being comfortable ruling either way on encounter powers or ammo, but at least I am seeing the value of the power, now.  Guess it's just as well no one I'm running for has rolled Doppleganger yet.  ;)

 

 

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Really, it's a lot like charging.



I think thats ultimately why this power, despite being so hideously overbalanced, doesn't actually break the game much in practice. There's only one or two really ugly things to combo it with. The extra minor action is probably a moot point - many players don't even have something to use thier minor action, what with the lack of healing. Really what the power grants you is massive mobility, which isn't nearly as bad as some of the BS I've seen players pull in 4E, like unkillable barbarians who can dish out 150+ damage a round and have Regen 30, Diehard, and 4 free-action second winds.

In the grand scheme of things, its not too bad ;)
Really what the power grants you is massive mobility


Not as massive as it seems.

And I've seen people call the Hawkoid flight "broken and overpowered" because it just "flew out of range of everything".

It gives you some offensive mobility, but nothing really defensive.
If you get into a bad position, Double Trouble will NOT get you out.

It can be used to set up a choke point... except one hit and it's gone, which is far less effective than a real blocker, and more on par with minor control powers like Cloud of Daggers, or Spectral Image.

Compare to some D&D abilities like Warlock shadow walk and rogues using Stealth everywhere, and it's not a big deal.

You also have to stop and consider what this cost - it cost an at-will power.
Rather than having 2 potent abilities to use (versatility), all you get is one... and this mobility.
That is actually a huge cost.
AlexandraErin: If last season was any indication, I think Encounters is pretty much the elemental opposite of "organized" play!
Howdy all, I know it's been hashed and hashed but my take on "Double Trouble", since I read many other posts about it I wanted to add my thoughts:

I believe the phrase "...all the actions that you can take..." implies the type of actions.  So, if I had an encounter power left from my other origin, it could enact it for me/us but it would cound as my use of that power for this encounter. 

The concern with an infinite number of duplicates should be little since each clone requires a standard action from the main character or comes about as a result of a critical from the main character.  Duplicates wouldn't generate more duplicates from a critical that they might do because they cannot use doppleganger powers.  They would still get the additional 1d10 damage from the Trait Doppelganger Critical.  Also note the duration "...or at the end of your next turn", so it comes into existance on your turn but does nothing until your turn is over, has a full set of actions, exists during your next turn, and then disappears at the end of your next turn.

The phrasing of when they act is "The duplicate acts in the initiative order directly after you" which does not mention it's slot, it's initiative number or anything else.  Simply, after your turn, your duplicate will go, which also means to me that it acts with a full compliment of actions.

So from my interpretation:  It's an at will power that eats your standard action, leaving you with a move and minor.  The result of that action are the chance to do a full set of actions originating from 5 squares from where you invoked the power without personal consequence.  

What's the net of this?  The biggest impacts are that you can use your other origins power (assuming it is an "at will", or an encounter power you have not already used during this encounter), or you can make an attack.  These are things you could have done with that standard action anyway.  So, if you used this power every round, you would do the same number of standard actions as you could have done without using this power (obviously factoring out the standard actions that you used to get those other standard actions).  With the rare exception that one out of twenty times, you will get one free round (for all intents and purposes) (scratch that, you're using your standard action).  Sure you would have gotten more move actions and minor actions, but most of them wouldn't be something your actual character could benefit from directly.  Is this more powerful than Gravitational Pulse (range of 10), or Psychic Assault (range of 20!), or just having someone else attack for you with Mental Push (range of 10)?  All of those listed are standard action, at will powers.

Just my thoughts...