Sticky for Unofficial Rule Clarifications?

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I'm not even sure if these forums allow for stickies (I think they do...) in any case, I think it would be very helpful for a stickied post with at least unofficial rule clarifications.

The main questions I'm seeing deal with how Alpha Mutations work and how Engineered Humans work.

If we have a stickied topic, maybe it'll help new people find answers faster than having to scroll through all the messages in the thread (search is useless on these forums).
Sorry, cant seem to find posts on the subjects, what are the questions and solutions for bio engineered humans and alpha mutations?
So I can be like everybody else!!! :D :D :D You are Red/Blue!
ORIGINS:
Q: Do Engineered Humans add their overcharge bonus to the overall overcharge bonus?

A: Yes, if Engineered Human is the characters primary origin. According to the rules and default option for determining your origins, the Engineered Human origin will always be a secondary origin. The rules state that only the primary origin provides an overcharge bonus. Since E.H. is a secondary origin (by default) its origin overcharge bonuses are not applied.

Q: Since the Engineered Human origin's overcharge bonus is not typed does that mean it adds it's overcharge bonus to the character?

A: No. Whether the power is typed or not, it does not overrule or supercede the ruling about overcharge bonuses coming strictly from the primary origin.

Q: Do overcharge bonuses stack?

A: No. As stated on Page 34 of the rules, only the primary overcharge bonus is used.

Q: Since page 34 states that all of an origin's traits add together, do the overcharge bonuses add together?

A: No. The general rule is that all origin traits add together. The specific rule is that only the primary origin's overcharge bonus applies. The main rule is that specific overrides general. Therefore overcharge bonuses do not stack and the primary overcharge bonus is the only one considered in the final character build.

Q: How can I get the +2 to all overcharge rolls if I'm an Enhanced Human?

A: Your DM can house rule that you gain both overcharge bonuses, whether or not they stack, or any other ruling the DM wishes to impose. If your DM allows you to choose your origins, you can gain the +2 bonus to all overcharge rolls by selecting Enhanced Human as your primary origin (unless the DM has provided house rules that state otherwise). The rules allow players to choose their origins if the DM allows it, this rule is in a sidebar in the origins section of creating a character (though the rule suggests you be labeled a chicken, a giant, rubber-nosed-honking-purple chicken...OK, maybe just a chicken).

Q: Does my Doppleganger duplicate everything? Does that mean he has his own ammo?

A: Probably not. Your doppleganger is the result of your origin's power, it is not a separate being but more an extension of your character. This would indicate that ammo is shared between you and your doppleganger. You either have ammo or you don't and if you fire your gun once and your doppleganer fires its gun once, then you are out of ammo at the end of the encounter. This is a tricky subject and your DM may rule differently.

Q: Can I use my doppleganger to allow me to see around corners or improve my attack rolls?

A: No. Your doppleganger does not share sensory information with you. Due to the way the game works, however, anything your doppleganger sees is known to you (the player) and is presumably passed on to your character. It does not mean that you can use your doppleganger to overcome blindness or other penalty-inducing status conditions. It also does not mean that it allows you to ignore cover if your doppleganger has unobstructed line-of-site to a target while you do not. This does not mean that you won't have an Alpha Mutation that allows this nor does it mean that your DM may rule in favor of this.

ALPHA MUTATIONS:
Q: If I overcharge an Alpha Mutation, do I still recieve the benefits of the non-overcharged version of it if I fail the overcharge roll?


A: Yes, the basic effects/power/benefit of an Alpha Mutation is always in effect unless the overcharge roll dictates otherwise.

Q: If I roll a natural 1 and I've used my only Alpha Mutation, what happens?

A: You must discard your used Alpha Mutation and draw a new Alpha Mutation to replace it. The new Alpha Mutation is readied (face up next to your character sheet or in front of you) and its power takes effect immediately.

Q: Can I overcharge an Alpha Mutation more than once during an encounter?


A: No. You can only overcharge an Alpha Mutation one time during an encounter. You indicate that this has happened by tapping it (turning your Mutation card 90 degrees, leaving it face-up). Tapped Alpha Mutations cannot be overcharged. However, since they are readied, you still benefit from the Alpha Mutation's power.

Q: Does that mean that if I have an Alpha Mutation that gives me Resist 5 Physical and I overcharge it successfully to Resist 10 Physical that I now have Resist 15 Physical? In other words, do overcharges stack with the normal power of an Alpha Mutation?

A: No, unless the overcharge effect specifically states this happens. In most instances, the effect of the Alpha Mutation in it's non-overcharged state is replaced by the successful overcharge power. If the overcharge effect does not say something like "You instead gain Resist 10 Physical" (paraphrasing here) then the normal power remains in effect.

Q: What happens to the normal power if I fail my overcharge roll?

A: Unless the failed overcharge effect states that it replaces or changes the normal power, the normal power's effect remains.

OMEGA TECH:
Q: If I fail my recharge check with an Omega Tech, what happens?


A: This is entirely left to your DM. He may follow the rules as written and have you discard the Omega Tech unless you are able to salvage it; he may allow you to keep the Omega Tech as scrap; he may do neither. The rules state that unless you are of high enough level to salvage Omega Tech you discard the card. This is rarely a problem, however, since you can shuffle your Omega Tech back into your deck after an extended rest. This means that you may eventually find that specific piece of equipment again.

AMMO/FOUND WEAPONS:
Q: During an encounter, I found ammo for my gun. Since I didn't use my gun during the encounter, can I shoot it twice and not lose ammo?

A: No. According to the rules, you either have ammo or you don't. If you give your ammo to another player, you no longer have ammo. If you use a weapon that requires ammo (such as a gun) more than once in an encounter, you are out of ammo. Your DM may rule differently through house rules.

Q: If I use my gun more than once during an encounter and an ally gives me more ammo but I no longer use the weapon after that, will I still have ammo when the encounter ends?

A: Probably not. Checking for depleted ammo happens at the end of the encounter. If you used your gun more than once during that encounter then the rules state you are out of ammo. If your ally gives you ammo after the ammo depletion check (IE after the encounter) then you will have ammo again. Again, your DM has final say.

Q: I picked up a weapon that a monster was using against us. It had crazy powers! Will it work for me in the same way?

A: Probably not. When a monster uses a weapon, the powers listed in the monster's stat block will include a monster's skill and talent with the weapon. In much the same way that you cannot use a dragon's firebreath ability if you take a dragon's head, you cannot use the powers from a monster's weapon. Think about it this way: There are origins with special powers that have weapon as a requirement. If someone takes your one-handed light gun from you, would they be able to use your origin's power with your stolen weapon against you? It's the same way with monster powers. The weapon you've found is a generic weapon (it may have a name or specific look but it's still generic) such as a two-handed heavy gun that provides combat bonuses as described in the Gamma World rule book. Additionally, even if the weapon was not fired by the monster, the monster's ammo is considered depleted.
Adding a few clarifications.

Doppelganger improving attack rolls: You can use Double Trouble to set up favorable conditions in combat. For example, you can move adjacent to an enemy, and then create a duplicate in flanking position. While you wouldn't be able to attack (having used your standard action to create a duplicate), your duplicate would have Combat Advantage on it's turn.

Failed overcharge: If the power was an attack, resolve the attack normally, and then apply the effect of the failed overcharge afterwards.
(This bit is in the rules, but likely good to include in an FAQ as it's easy to miss)

Being given ammo: Ammo is only depleted at the end of an encounter. During an encounter, you still have ammo, otherwise you would not be able to use your gun. As long as you have ammo, you cannot pick up or be given more ammo. Allies can carry ammo for you, but no character can carry more than one allotment of ammo at a time.

Q: Can I store some extra ammo in my wagon/truck/canoe/motorized outhouse?
A: Very good question. This one is not covered by the rules, so it's up to your GM. It does seem perfectly reasonable and logical. Just remember that having ammo stored somewhere means needing to go get it, which may not be practical in the middle of an adventure.
AlexandraErin: If last season was any indication, I think Encounters is pretty much the elemental opposite of "organized" play!
Q: Can I store some extra ammo in my wagon/truck/canoe/motorized outhouse?
A: Very good question. This one is not covered by the rules, so it's up to your GM. It does seem perfectly reasonable and logical. Just remember that having ammo stored somewhere means needing to go get it, which may not be practical in the middle of an adventure.


A: Probably not. Anything listed in your possessions is available to your character. If you have ammo, you have ammo whether it is on your person or on your wagon. If you fire a gun more than once during an encounter, you don't have ammo anymore.
Q: All the origins At-Will powers are standard actions, except for the Yeti's, which is listed as a Minor Action.  Is this an intentional feature of yetis, allowing for an at-will minor action melee attack (and thus up to 3 melee attacks every round)?

**Edit**  Nevermind, I now see that it's actually an encounter power.  The green bar threw me off
Q:  Crawling.  It says under the description for prone that you can move only by crawling but crawl is not listed as a movement mode that I can find.  Should it work just like Dungeons and Dragons where crawling is at 1/2 speed?

Q:  Charge:  Charging is not addressed anywhere that I could find but it is mentioned under the Felinoid Expert power entry Killing Bite.  Does charging exist in Gamma World and if so should it work just as in Dungeons and Dragons?

Q:  Flying.  Can a flying PC stay in the air without moving?  The entry for Hawkoid says to see page 104 for special rules about flying and that page states that it's possible but does that apply only to monsters?

Q:  Flying:  On the same vein, can a flying PC shift while flying?

Q:  Flying:  Can a flying creature make opportunity attacks while flying even without the (hover) modifier to its fly speed?  I assume that since it doesn't say anywhere that you can't, then it can. 

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

Q:  Crawling.  It says under the description for prone that you can move only by crawling but crawl is not listed as a movement mode that I can find.  Should it work just like Dungeons and Dragons where crawling is at 1/2 speed?

A: Gamma World is a D&D game world (as evidenced by the D&D proudly displayed next to the Gamma World logo---This is an assumption, but a fair one in my book) and therefore you should be able to adapt rules from D&D 4th Edition to Gamma World. This is solely at the discretion of the DM since it will be his ruling on whether to use those rules or not. I would have to say that using the movement rules from D&D 4e is fair game if they're mentioned in parts of Gamma World yet not present in the rulebook. Rules for Crawling is found on page 288 of the 4th Edition Player's Handbook or on Pages 203 and 241 of the D&D Essentials Rules Compendium.

Q:  Charge:  Charging is not addressed anywhere that I could find but it is mentioned under the Felinoid Expert power entry Killing Bite.  Does charging exist in Gamma World and if so should it work just as in Dungeons and Dragons?

A: As a fleshed-out rule, no, charging does not exist in Gamma World rules. As with Crawling, it is up to the DM whether or not to use D&D 4e rules in Gamma World to cover for the omission of the Charging rules. Rules for Charging can be found on page 287 of the 4th Edition Player's Handbook or on Page 240 of the D&D Essentials Rules Compendium.

Q:  Flying.  Can a flying PC stay in the air without moving?  The entry for Hawkoid says to see page 104 for special rules about flying and that page states that it's possible but does that apply only to monsters?

A: Generally, the power will describe what happens. For instance, the Wings Alpha Mutation states that if a PC has not landed by the end of his movement action, he crashes. The rules you are referring to on page 104 (which has the infamous "See page xx typo" - it should be "See page 20") are the movement rules for monsters. Since the Hawkoid is one of the exceptions to standard PC movement, it falls under the "specific beats general" rule. In this case, the rules for flying on page 104 also apply to the Hawkoid since characters with this origin are able to fly without mutation. You can also find rules for Flying in the D&D 4th Edition Dungeon Master's Guide on page 47 or on pages 203 (Fly speed) and 210 (Flying rules) in the D&D Essentials Rules Compendium.

Q:  Flying:  On the same vein, can a flying PC shift while flying?

A: According to the rules on page 104 "It can remain in the air without moving and can shift while flying." Based on the previous SbG ruling, the answer is Yes, as long as the flight is natural and not from a mutation that states otherwise. You may want to note that D&D Essentials also stipulates that there may be difficult terrain in the air which would prohibit shifting such as strong winds, debris, or very tall terrain features.

Q:  Flying:  Can a flying creature make opportunity attacks while flying even without the (hover) modifier to its fly speed?  I assume that since it doesn't say anywhere that you can't, then it can.

A: Probably. If you want to go further in-depth and turn to the D&D Essentials Rules Compendium, the rules do not disallow this. Since D&D Essentials is an updated version of the original D&D 4e rules (which ruled that no flying creature could make an opportunity attack), I would have to rule that Yes, a flying creature can make an opportunity attack if an adjacent creature moves to another square. That is, of course, assuming that the flying creature is adjacent to the target on at least one of it's sides. This means that the flying creature would have to be in the space directly above the target or in one of the 8 adjacent squares. Think of a Rubick's Cube with the flying creature at the center of the cube. It can make an opportunity attack 1 square away on all sides and diagonals.
Q: All the origins At-Will powers are standard actions, except for the Yeti's, which is listed as a Minor Action.  Is this an intentional feature of yetis, allowing for an at-will minor action melee attack (and thus up to 3 melee attacks every round)?

**Edit**  Nevermind, I now see that it's actually an encounter power.  The green bar threw me off

I'll stll answer since this has come up quite a lot and there are a lot of house rules detailing some of the inconsistency...

A: All Origins' Novice Powers have a green title bar which has indicated an At-Will power to those familiar with the D&D 4e and Essentials rules. However, upon closer inspection, you will find that some of the powers are Encounter powers which normally have a red title bar. This was overlooked in many initial games and DMs found that treating Novice Powers as At-Will powers did not affect the game in a bad way. We do not know if the green title bar was a copy & paste template error or if categorization of the powers as encounter powers was a typo.

As mentioned previously, there are several house rules and power modifications to try and balance these powers out so they fit within the power range of a standard At-Will power. You are free to try any of these house rules.

As for the action type of the Yeti's power; Immediate Reaction, Immediate Interrupt, Minor, Standard, Free, and Move are the action types typically associated with game powers. The color of the title bar (green, red, black, blue, etc) has no bearing on the action type, only whether the power is an At-Will, Encounter, Daily, etc.

Personally, I will use the powers as written unless official errata stipulates different rules. You or your DM (if you're a player) will have to make the call on how to handle this particularly confusing inconsistency.
<>

You could also just drop your doppleganger right next to a foe and melee attack, never exposing yourself.  The doppleganger can shoot at anything he sees, so in effect he would extend your ranged attack LOS (just not your powers).
"Remember, we are the music makers. We are the dreamer of the dreams." -Willy Wonka
A: Gamma World is a D&D game world (as evidenced by the D&D proudly displayed next to the Gamma World logo---This is an assumption, but a fair one in my book) and therefore you should be able to adapt rules from D&D 4th Edition to Gamma World.



A very fair assumption.  For lack of any "officially official" rulings, that's what I've been doing.  And since all my players are already DnD4e players, it works well.

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

<>

You could also just drop your doppleganger right next to a foe and melee attack, never exposing yourself.  The doppleganger can shoot at anything he sees, so in effect he would extend your ranged attack LOS (just not your powers).

This has been suggested above for use in quick flanking bonuses. Also, keep in mind that while your doppleganger cannot use your doppleganger powers, alpha mutations, or omega tech, he can use the powers of your other origin...And yes, using your doppleganger could be considered as giving you the ability to attack foes you cannot see for yourself, but the benefits end with the doppleganger's attacks, he doesn't provide the main character with any benefits other than the ability to describe something that can't be seen.

The real question is this: Does your doppleganger duplicate any conditions that you are currently affected by? For instance, if you are slowed, is your doppleganger slowed? If you are blind, is your doppleganger also blind? I did not find this in the rules but one could infer that all conditions are also duplicated based on the rule that your doppleganger can take all the actions you can take.

I would rule that conditions are not duplicated since the premise behind the Doppleganger Novice Power is that you are using a you from a different worldline that is unaffected by the conditions affecting your current you.


I would rule that conditions are not duplicated since the premise behind the Doppleganger Novice Power is that you are using a you from a different worldline that is unaffected by the conditions affecting your current you.




That sort of logic can begin a slippery slope into the deep pits of 'Uh Oh'.  If I can bring in another me who was not blinded by an enemy's attack, why could I not:
- Bring in an other self who then uses an encounter power (non alpha, omega, or doppleganger) that I have already spent, because I can call on a timeline where I did not spend it.
- Bring in an other self, who then fires an ammunition weapon, every single round, without ever expending my own ammo, since I can keep finding timelines where I had not taken a shot with the gun in question.
- Use a bunch of grenades, sticks of dynamite, or similar to make a suicide vest, then keep calling on timelines where my other selves are mentally unstable and looking for a reason to blow themselves up, creating an endless stream of suicide bombers to use on enemies.

Of course, ruling that the power makes an exact copy of you (conditions and all), doesn't really prevent any of these.  You could make copies of yourself before you spend encounters and let your copies expend theirs, or let them spend the ammo, or even blow themselves up.  The only way to prevent these abuses is to rule that the copy cannot use anything expendible, be it ammo or encounter powers or suicide vests...



ORIGINS:
Q: Do Engineered Humans add their overcharge bonus to the overall overcharge bonus?

A: Yes, if Engineered Human is the characters primary origin. According to the rules and default option for determining your origins, the Engineered Human origin will always be a secondary origin. The rules state that only the primary origin provides an overcharge bonus. Since E.H. is a secondary origin (by default) its origin overcharge bonuses are not applied.



so what is the point of the human having +2 to everything if it is not applied?

plus the 4th line on page 34 say you gain the traits of both origins. the +2 to all overcharge is a trait.
ORIGINS:
Q: Do Engineered Humans add their overcharge bonus to the overall overcharge bonus?

A: Yes, if Engineered Human is the characters primary origin. According to the rules and default option for determining your origins, the Engineered Human origin will always be a secondary origin. The rules state that only the primary origin provides an overcharge bonus. Since E.H. is a secondary origin (by default) its origin overcharge bonuses are not applied.



so what is the point of the human having +2 to everything if it is not applied?

plus the 4th line on page 34 say you gain the traits of both origins. the +2 to all overcharge is a trait.


Read and understand the rules. As written, you only get the traits gain the overcharge bonus of your primary. That is the first origin you have. It is s.p.e.c.i.f.i.c while the gain traits of both origins is g.e.n.e.r.a.l and therefore the general rule is overruled by the specific rule.

The reason there is a +2 to all overcharges is in case the E.H. origin is primary and therefore gains the overcharge bonuses of E.H. which you can only do if you choose your origins. Read the sidebar about choosing origins.

This is one of the most confusing for people who don't really read anything in the book. Don't read the thing half-way and skip the rest. It states in 2 (that's TWO) places that you only gain the overcharge bonus from your primary origin. Go ahead and read the book, you'll see that's what it says.

That's it, end of story, no more questions about this, period (though there'll be more questions and confusion about this because people don't read and comprehend what they've read).

If you want to house rule that both overcharge bonuses stack, go right ahead, but don't argue that the rules are confusing on this point because it is stated twice in the book.

(edited to fix "get the traits" to "gain the overcharge bonus").

For futher clarifications refer to page XX.  That makes it clear as pie!

ORIGINS:
Q: Do Engineered Humans add their overcharge bonus to the overall overcharge bonus?

A: Yes, if Engineered Human is the characters primary origin. According to the rules and default option for determining your origins, the Engineered Human origin will always be a secondary origin. The rules state that only the primary origin provides an overcharge bonus. Since E.H. is a secondary origin (by default) its origin overcharge bonuses are not applied.



so what is the point of the human having +2 to everything if it is not applied?

plus the 4th line on page 34 say you gain the traits of both origins. the +2 to all overcharge is a trait.


Read and understand the rules. As written, you only get the traits gain the overcharge bonus of your primary. That is the first origin you have. It is s.p.e.c.i.f.i.c while the gain traits of both origins is g.e.n.e.r.a.l and therefore the general rule is overruled by the specific rule.

The reason there is a +2 to all overcharges is in case the E.H. origin is primary and therefore gains the overcharge bonuses of E.H. which you can only do if you choose your origins. Read the sidebar about choosing origins.

This is one of the most confusing for people who don't really read anything in the book. Don't read the thing half-way and skip the rest. It states in 2 (that's TWO) places that you only gain the overcharge bonus from your primary origin. Go ahead and read the book, you'll see that's what it says.

That's it, end of story, no more questions about this, period (though there'll be more questions and confusion about this because people don't read and comprehend what they've read).

If you want to house rule that both overcharge bonuses stack, go right ahead, but don't argue that the rules are confusing on this point because it is stated twice in the book.

(edited to fix "get the traits" to "gain the overcharge bonus").



i just wanted a rules clarification. you did not have to be rude about it. i have read the rules. my gaming group all mistook this. 21 people

I have edited content in this thread due to baiting and trolling.
Please keep your posts on topic, respectful and polite.
ORIGINS:
Q: Do Engineered Humans add their overcharge bonus to the overall overcharge bonus?

A: Yes, if Engineered Human is the characters primary origin. According to the rules and default option for determining your origins, the Engineered Human origin will always be a secondary origin. The rules state that only the primary origin provides an overcharge bonus. Since E.H. is a secondary origin (by default) its origin overcharge bonuses are not applied.



so what is the point of the human having +2 to everything if it is not applied?

plus the 4th line on page 34 say you gain the traits of both origins. the +2 to all overcharge is a trait.


Read and UNDERSTAND the rules. As written, you only get the traits gain the overcharge bonus of your PRIMARY. THAT IS THE FIRST ORIGIN YOU HAVE. IT IS S.P.E.C.I.F.I.C. while the gain traits of both origins is G.E.N.E.R.A.L. and therefore the general rule is overruled by the specific rule.

The reason there is a +2 to all overcharges is in case the E.H. origin is primary and therefore gains the overcharge bonuses of E.H. which you can only do if you choose your origins. Read the sidebar about choosing origins.

This is one of the most confusing for people who don't really read anything in the book. Don't read the thing half-way and skip the rest. It states in 2 (that's TWO) places that you only gain the overcharge bonus from your primary origin. Go ahead and read the book, you'll see that's what it says.

That's it, end of story, no more stupid questions about this, period (though there'll be more questions and confusion about this because people don't read and comprehend what they've read).

If you want to house rule that both overcharge bonuses stack, go right ahead, but don't argue that the rules are confusing on this point because it is stated twice in the book.

(edited to fix "get the traits" to "gain the overcharge bonus").



i just wanted a rules clarification. you did not have to be rude about it. i have read the rules. my gaming group all mistook this. 21 people


My apologies for the rudeness, I think that sometimes it helps people pay attention. And since I've had to deal with people asking this question over and over and over again and people arguing and rationalizing why the overcharge rules don't apply to Engineered Humans, I get a little miffy. Especially when some people tend to argue just to tick others off.

When I first created characters, I thought they stacked as well. But, the RAW (Rules As Written) are 100% perfectly clear in 2 spots about this. I caught this on a fourth reread of the rules.

*Page 30: Roll your origins. If your second roll matches your first roll, your second origin is Engineered Human.

*Page 34: If your second roll is the same as the first, then your second origin is Engineered Human.

*Page 34: You gain a +2 bonus to overcharge rolls on Alpha powers that have the same power source as your primary origin.

*Page 35: Rolling or Choosing Origins? They give the option of rolling for both (default), rolling one and picking a complemantery origin, picking the first and rolling the second, or "being a big chicken" by choosing both (if your Game Master permits it).

*Page 57: What is Human? Does not override the primary origin overcharge bonus rule. It's a sidebar that gives you ideas as to why a Cockroach/Engineered Human has the powers of a Cockroach.

*Page 67: Sidebar: Overcharing Alpha Mutations. Your primary origin might give you a bonus to overcharging certain Alpha powers.

The fact that Engineered Humans do not have an overcharge type (Bio, Dark, or Psi) does not override the primary overcharge bonus rule. It simply implies that since the E.H. gains a +2 for all overcharges, then there is no specific type they are acclimated to.

I would rule that if other overcharge types appear (say Arcane or Mechanical for instance) that the Engineered Human would gain +2 for those new types as well. BUT, if E.H. is not your primary origin, according to the RAW, then you wouldn't benefit from that additional +2.

Again, you may house rule that all traits stack. It's your game. But if you intend to run the game with the RAW, then overcharge bonuses from secondary origins do not apply, do not stack, and are simply ignored.
I would rule that conditions are not duplicated since the premise behind the Doppleganger Novice Power is that you are using a you from a different worldline that is unaffected by the conditions affecting your current you.


I don't see this premise described anywhere.
"You harness the shattered timelines to duplicate yourself in combat."
It does not say you're summoning alternates from different worldlines. It says you harness shattered timelines to DUPLICATE yourself.

Furthermore, the flavour on Double Trouble?
You create a duplicate of yourself for a short time.

CREATE. Not summon, not "using alternates". Create, fabricate, cause to come into being.
Duplicate, copy, replication, identical.

If you use Double Trouble, the duplicate will have the same conditions, because it's a duplicate of you, and your conditions are part of you.
AlexandraErin: If last season was any indication, I think Encounters is pretty much the elemental opposite of "organized" play!
I would rule that conditions are not duplicated since the premise behind the Doppleganger Novice Power is that you are using a you from a different worldline that is unaffected by the conditions affecting your current you.


I don't see this premise described anywhere.
"You harness the shattered timelines to duplicate yourself in combat."
It does not say you're summoning alternates from different worldlines. It says you harness shattered timelines to DUPLICATE yourself.

Furthermore, the flavour on Double Trouble?
You create a duplicate of yourself for a short time.

CREATE. Not summon, not "using alternates". Create, fabricate, cause to come into being.
Duplicate, copy, replication, identical.

If you use Double Trouble, the duplicate will have the same conditions, because it's a duplicate of you, and your conditions are part of you.

That's a fair assessment. Though with my "I would rule" that's a "my game" kind of thing.

A duplicate, I would assume then has everything the same as your character when it was created except as stated in the doppleganger power (IE 1 hp, not able to use doppleganger powers, alpha mutations, or omega tech).
I've ruled it is basically like a minion.  Since it acts on the initiative after yours, that implies that it gets full actions, IMO.  We have had great fun running it this way.  The doppleganger gets a minion.  w00t!

A duplicate, I would assume then has everything the same as your character when it was created except as stated in the doppleganger power (IE 1 hp, not able to use doppleganger powers, alpha mutations, or omega tech).



IMO, the problem with this take is the assumption that it then opens up space for the arguments about unused encounter powers, duplicating consumables, and getting free ammo uses, which most DMs probably will be pretty wary of.

I honestly don't think the power was meant to be deconstructed so much by powergaming. WotC does have a long history of ignoring that aspect of things, after all. It was just a 'Hey guys, why dont we put in someoone who can copy himself, wouldnt that be cool?' sort of a thing.
Yeah, a lot like what Palladium Books does with its games. Though WotC is by far better in that aspect.

Since you create a duplicate of yourself it's up to your DM to rule whether or not your used encounter powers are duplicated as well as your current conditions.

It doesn't explicitly state that in the book, hence the reason we try to extrapolate the answer from the ether.

Personally, after re-reading everything. I am going to say that you are duplicated as you are when you create your duplicate. Afterall, your duplicate gives you an additional standard, move, and minor action, that's powerful enough in it's own right. It takes a standard action to create your duplicate, leaving you with a minor and a move.

Hmm, re-reading the rules says that the duplicate can take all the actions you can take...The Critical power says that on a crit you can use your Novice power as a free action. This leads me to believe that any actions you have left over (in most cases a minor and a move if you haven't moved) is all your duplicate can do.

My ruling from here on out: When you create a duplicate, you create a duplicate of your self as you are at that moment in time. The duplicate can take any actions you have remaining at the time of its creation, which in most cases is a minor action and a move action. All conditions are copied over. Ammo is shared between the duplicate and the character thus if the duplicate fires a gun and the character fires a gun, the character has no ammo at the end of the encounter.

Personally, after re-reading everything. I am going to say that you are duplicated as you are when you create your duplicate. Afterall, your duplicate gives you an additional standard, move, and minor action, that's powerful enough in it's own right. It takes a standard action to create your duplicate, leaving you with a minor and a move.

Hmm, re-reading the rules says that the duplicate can take all the actions you can take...The Critical power says that on a crit you can use your Novice power as a free action. This leads me to believe that any actions you have left over (in most cases a minor and a move if you haven't moved) is all your duplicate can do.

My ruling from here on out: When you create a duplicate, you create a duplicate of your self as you are at that moment in time. The duplicate can take any actions you have remaining at the time of its creation, which in most cases is a minor action and a move action. All conditions are copied over. Ammo is shared between the duplicate and the character thus if the duplicate fires a gun and the character fires a gun, the character has no ammo at the end of the encounter.




If I were a player in your game I would ask you to stop re-reading the rules.  You seem to find something new to take away from them each time you do.
My ruling from here on out: When you create a duplicate, you create a duplicate of your self as you are at that moment in time. The duplicate can take any actions you have remaining at the time of its creation, which in most cases is a minor action and a move action.


In other words, the power is USELESS.

The intent is clear, your duplicate gets a full set of actions.
This is, in fact, built into the rules.
The duplicate acts in initiative AFTER you.
Which means it's turn starts after yours.

When your turn starts, you get a full complement of actions. The rules make this clear.
Unless the rules specifically say "Your duplicate gets less actions", then the rule "You get all your actions once your turn starts" is what happens.

Also, stop reading things in isolation, and try reading EVERYTHING, for some context.

Almost every origin critical hit: Do extra damage, plus another effect.
Your version of doppelganger critical: Do NO damage, and create a duplicate for free... which can also do NO DAMAGE because you won't let it take a standard action.

Here's a good one: What if you create a dupe by getting a critical on an OPPORTUNITY attack? Since you have zero actions available, this means you create a duplicate that literally can do nothing but stand there and look ugly.

YES! This makes PERFECT SENSE! Not only is your power nearly useless, but your critical benefit is even LESS useful than your useless power!

Wilt is right. You need to be less "interpretive" and more "literal".
AlexandraErin: If last season was any indication, I think Encounters is pretty much the elemental opposite of "organized" play!
Yeah, a lot like what Palladium Books does with its games. Though WotC is by far better in that aspect.

Since you create a duplicate of yourself it's up to your DM to rule whether or not your used encounter powers are duplicated as well as your current conditions.

It doesn't explicitly state that in the book, hence the reason we try to extrapolate the answer from the ether.

Personally, after re-reading everything. I am going to say that you are duplicated as you are when you create your duplicate. Afterall, your duplicate gives you an additional standard, move, and minor action, that's powerful enough in it's own right. It takes a standard action to create your duplicate, leaving you with a minor and a move.

Hmm, re-reading the rules says that the duplicate can take all the actions you can take...The Critical power says that on a crit you can use your Novice power as a free action. This leads me to believe that any actions you have left over (in most cases a minor and a move if you haven't moved) is all your duplicate can do.

My ruling from here on out: When you create a duplicate, you create a duplicate of your self as you are at that moment in time. The duplicate can take any actions you have remaining at the time of its creation, which in most cases is a minor action and a move action. All conditions are copied over. Ammo is shared between the duplicate and the character thus if the duplicate fires a gun and the character fires a gun, the character has no ammo at the end of the encounter.

I'm very glad I no longer have DMs like you who willfully misinterpret the rules to screw over classes you don't like, like those people who used to say that kicking sand in a wizard's face in 1E/2E would automatically make their spellcasting fail.
My ruling from here on out: When you create a duplicate, you create a duplicate of your self as you are at that moment in time. The duplicate can take any actions you have remaining at the time of its creation, which in most cases is a minor action and a move action.


In other words, the power is USELESS.

The intent is clear, your duplicate gets a full set of actions.
This is, in fact, built into the rules.
The duplicate acts in initiative AFTER you.
Which means it's turn starts after yours.



Not entirely useless, but I was thinking about this this morning and figured that you "push your standard action to your duplicate" that would be a good way to interpret it. So I can see (and that's how I played it the first time) giving your duplicate a standard action in addition to a minor and a move.

But, for an at-will power, that means the doppleganger player has 6 actions per turn which is crazy powerful. Even in standard D&D 4e the only way to get another action is to spend an action point and that is a very limited resource.

If you think about it, you can pop your duplicate next to an advancing enemy causing the enemy to slow down by attacking or being opportunity attacked by your duplicate. You can give any ally who goes after you instant combat advantage against an enemy if you can plop your duplicate down next to the enemy in a flanking position. You can use your duplicate to trigger an ally's second wind. You can use your duplicate to fire off the Yeti's claw attack (minor action) if you're a doppleganger/yeti (though only once during an encounter since it's an Encounter power and if you've used it already it's used up). You can use your doppleganger to operate computers. You can use your doppleganger to make science checks to stabilize downed allies.

That's FAR from useless, even with only a move action/minor action if you haven't used them yet. Creating your duplicate does not end your turn. So if you create your duplicate, move, then do a minor, your duplicate should be able to move and do a minor as well. That's still 5 actions per turn, more than any other character in the game. Not to mention if you CRIT, you can create your duplicate as a free action. So you can attack (hopefully crit) and then be able to create your duplicate, move, do a minor, have your duplicate move and do a minor as well.

When your turn starts, you get a full complement of actions. The rules make this clear.
Unless the rules specifically say "Your duplicate gets less actions", then the rule "You get all your actions once your turn starts" is what happens.

The duplicate takes its actions after you do, it does not say that the duplicate has it's own turn.

Also, stop reading things in isolation, and try reading EVERYTHING, for some context.

I am reading everything otherwise, how could I come to the conclusion just by the power. I state that I read over the rules again, read the section on the doppleganger crit, then realized just how uber powerful the doppleganger is (and precisely why everyone wants a doppleganger/felinoid or doppleganger/yeti and to rule that all green-bared novice powers are at-wills -- powergaming in it's glory).

Almost every origin critical hit: Do extra damage, plus another effect.
Your version of doppelganger critical: Do NO damage, and create a duplicate for free... which can also do NO DAMAGE because you won't let it take a standard action.

Here's a good one: What if you create a dupe by getting a critical on an OPPORTUNITY attack? Since you have zero actions available, this means you create a duplicate that literally can do nothing but stand there and look ugly.

You would have had to taken a standard action (or minor action for the Yeti) to get a critical hit at which point you can create your duplicate as a free action. I read the rules, did you? How can you get a critical hit without taking an attack action? You can get a critical hit any time you make an attack be it as a free action, minor action, standard action, oppertunity attack...Lots of different ways to do it.

Doppleganger critical: "When you score a critical hit, the attack deals 1d10 extra damage, and you can use double trouble as a free action." where in that sentence, which is word-for-word from the book, does it say you don't do any damage when a doppleganger uses it's critical? I fail to see where you're getting that information from.

If you create your duplicate, it's a standard action. Therefore, unless you can attack some other way, you won't have the opportunity to attack during that turn. You might get an opportunity attack if a monster gives you one. At which point you can possibly score a critical hit and get another duplicate (which I would say can only do opportunity attacks since it goes away at the end of your turn and acts after your turn). But it can provide flanking for allies that attack next.

YES! This makes PERFECT SENSE! Not only is your power nearly useless, but your critical benefit is even LESS useful than your useless power!

Wilt is right. You need to be less "interpretive" and more "literal".

Heh, woo, kettle and pot going on there.

Anyway, I can only talk about the rules as written and how I can interpret them based on what I read and understand from those rules.

What should really boil your brain is this: If the duplicate acts in the initiative order directly after you and someone else is already occupying that initiative order, what happens if your initiative modifier is less than the monster or character that goes in that spot? Does your duplicate go or the monster who has a higher initiative modifier? (Your ruling: The duplicate. Mine: The higher initiative modifier). Which is correct? We'll never know until someone who designed the game starts answering questions. Until then... :D
Yeah, a lot like what Palladium Books does with its games. Though WotC is by far better in that aspect.

Since you create a duplicate of yourself it's up to your DM to rule whether or not your used encounter powers are duplicated as well as your current conditions.

It doesn't explicitly state that in the book, hence the reason we try to extrapolate the answer from the ether.

Personally, after re-reading everything. I am going to say that you are duplicated as you are when you create your duplicate. Afterall, your duplicate gives you an additional standard, move, and minor action, that's powerful enough in it's own right. It takes a standard action to create your duplicate, leaving you with a minor and a move.

Hmm, re-reading the rules says that the duplicate can take all the actions you can take...The Critical power says that on a crit you can use your Novice power as a free action. This leads me to believe that any actions you have left over (in most cases a minor and a move if you haven't moved) is all your duplicate can do.

My ruling from here on out: When you create a duplicate, you create a duplicate of your self as you are at that moment in time. The duplicate can take any actions you have remaining at the time of its creation, which in most cases is a minor action and a move action. All conditions are copied over. Ammo is shared between the duplicate and the character thus if the duplicate fires a gun and the character fires a gun, the character has no ammo at the end of the encounter.

I'm very glad I no longer have DMs like you who willfully misinterpret the rules to screw over classes you don't like, like those people who used to say that kicking sand in a wizard's face in 1E/2E would automatically make their spellcasting fail.


I don't like the doppleganger? Where'd you pick that up from? I think the class is awesome, especially when paired with a hypercog, engineered human, yeti, or felinoid. Scary combos those and I'd play any one in a heartbeat.

I am not misinterpreting the rules, I am reading the rules as they are written and making intelligent, thoughtful decisions where it's ambiguous as to what happens. If it was so clear, then a lot of these questions just wouldn't pop up, now would they?

In 1E/2E if the wizard took damage, they lost concentration because they had to focus it at staying alive. That's back when wizards only got a d4 hit points and if they didn't retreat from a melee or duck behind cover when getting hit, they'd die really fast. You'd stop casting a spell as well if someone shot you in the leg with a crossbow bolt, or if someone was throwing boulders at you. It was in the rules so we played by them. Where we didn't agree with the rules we created house rules to make it more fun.

The same thing that's happening with GW, though these posts pop up and I answer with what I know from the rules, with actual text from the book, but people argue that I must be on crack or something or that I hate this or that when I don't because they won't accept the rules as written and make their own house rules. Instead it turns into a trolling/flaming battle which causes those people to quit answering questions. These are the people who understand the rules and provide answers to questions where people are genuinely confused.

Now, again, house rule however you like. You can take my answers as house rules except where I quote the rules directly. The doppleganger rules are pretty much house rules from me then since I believe that 6 actions (2 standard, 2 minor, 2 move) for a player is crazy powerful for an at-will novice power. Nowhere in D&D 4e or in the other origins does anyone ever get that many actions. Hence my ruling. On top of that, the doppleganger critical at 2nd level allows you to create duplicates any time you roll a natural 20 for an attack! WOW, if you'er lucky you could get a doppleganger felinoid or doppleganger yeti. You could have 2 duplicates with the felinoid if you crit with both of your claw attacks. You could get 2 dupes if you crit with your standard and minor attacks with the yeti. You can then crit against any and all monsters that give you an opportunity attack. If you were that lucky or cheating, you'd have a mass of yous within 5 squares of you able to provide a lot of flanking, opportunity actions, minor actions, and free actions.

If we want to go by rules intended instead of rules as written, I think the developers would have not given this power an At-Will type but instead made it an encounter power that lasted until the end of the encounter instead of until the end of your next round. Then set the critical power so that any time you got a crit you could use the power again.

I have 2 dopplegangers (ones a electrokinetic, the other a telekinetic) in my game and this is one of the things I worry about...Luckily for me, they are not munchkins. (great game though, Munchkin...)
But, for an at-will power, that means the doppleganger player has 6 actions per turn which is crazy powerful. Even in standard D&D 4e the only way to get another action is to spend an action point and that is a very limited resource.

If you think about it, you can pop your duplicate next to an advancing enemy causing the enemy to slow down by attacking or being opportunity attacked by your duplicate. You can give any ally who goes after you instant combat advantage against an enemy if you can plop your duplicate down next to the enemy in a flanking position. You can use your duplicate to trigger an ally's second wind. You can use your duplicate to fire off the Yeti's claw attack (minor action) if you're a doppleganger/yeti (though only once during an encounter since it's an Encounter power and if you've used it already it's used up). You can use your doppleganger to operate computers. You can use your doppleganger to make science checks to stabilize downed allies.



All exactly as intended, because you effectively only have one standard action per turn to actually do something. The other, after all, is used to create the duplicate. See below.

That's FAR from useless, even with only a move action/minor action if you haven't used them yet. Creating your duplicate does not end your turn. So if you create your duplicate, move, then do a minor, your duplicate should be able to move and do a minor as well. That's still 5 actions per turn, more than any other character in the game. Not to mention if you CRIT, you can create your duplicate as a free action. So you can attack (hopefully crit) and then be able to create your duplicate, move, do a minor, have your duplicate move and do a minor as well.



It doesn't matter if you have _20_ actions if none of them are able to be used as attack actions or skill checks. If I have 20 minor actions to manipulate my inventory, that doesn't actually help in combat. The reason the Doppelganger novice power is a standard action is not to prevent you from attacking at all but rather to prevent you from attacking twice, except in the instance of a critical hit at higher levels. What it really effectively does is let you either make a melee attack or skill check at range from your actual position, possibly in a better situation with respect to flanking etc, without exposing yourself to as much danger.

In fact, even the move action isn't really an extra action for you per turn, what it really amounts to is extending the Range entry of your novice power by your speed. You're a Doppelganger / Seismic? That means your range for the power is effectively 10, provided no creatures or other obstacles are in the way to block your copy's movement.

By the way - critical hits happen only on one in every 20 attacks. 


What should really boil your brain is this: If the duplicate acts in the initiative order directly after you and someone else is already occupying that initiative order, what happens if your initiative modifier is less than the monster or character that goes in that spot? Does your duplicate go or the monster who has a higher initiative modifier? (Your ruling: The duplicate. Mine: The higher initiative modifier). Which is correct? We'll never know until someone who designed the game starts answering questions. Until then... :D



It actually acts on the same initiative count as you. That is to say, if you're on initiative count 11, the duplicate doesn't act on a 10 - it instead acts on 11, just like a summoned monster in 3.x D&D.
But, for an at-will power, that means the doppleganger player has 6 actions per turn which is crazy powerful. Even in standard D&D 4e the only way to get another action is to spend an action point and that is a very limited resource.

If you think about it, you can pop your duplicate next to an advancing enemy causing the enemy to slow down by attacking or being opportunity attacked by your duplicate. You can give any ally who goes after you instant combat advantage against an enemy if you can plop your duplicate down next to the enemy in a flanking position. You can use your duplicate to trigger an ally's second wind. You can use your duplicate to fire off the Yeti's claw attack (minor action) if you're a doppleganger/yeti (though only once during an encounter since it's an Encounter power and if you've used it already it's used up). You can use your doppleganger to operate computers. You can use your doppleganger to make science checks to stabilize downed allies.



All exactly as intended, because you effectively only have one standard action per turn to actually do something. The other, after all, is used to create the duplicate. See below.



You only have 1 (one) standard action per turn. 1 standard action is what it costs to create your duplicate. You then have any number of free actions, a minor action, and a move action. You cannot attack with another standard action at any time during your turn unless you get a mutation that lets you do so.


That's FAR from useless, even with only a move action/minor action if you haven't used them yet. Creating your duplicate does not end your turn. So if you create your duplicate, move, then do a minor, your duplicate should be able to move and do a minor as well. That's still 5 actions per turn, more than any other character in the game. Not to mention if you CRIT, you can create your duplicate as a free action. So you can attack (hopefully crit) and then be able to create your duplicate, move, do a minor, have your duplicate move and do a minor as well.



It doesn't matter if you have _20_ actions if none of them are able to be used as attack actions or skill checks. If I have 20 minor actions to manipulate my inventory, that doesn't actually help in combat. The reason the Doppelganger novice power is a standard action is not to prevent you from attacking at all but rather to prevent you from attacking twice, except in the instance of a critical hit at higher levels. What it really effectively does is let you either make a melee attack or skill check at range from your actual position, possibly in a better situation with respect to flanking etc, without exposing yourself to as much danger.



Actually, you only have one standard action during a normal turn. You cannot attack unless you somehow gain another standard action (through an alpha mutation) or if you use the once-per-encounter Yeti minor attack action.

And I said before: I could see using the standard action with your duplicate as you "pushing your standard action onto your duplicate". That works and is fine with me.

In fact, even the move action isn't really an extra action for you per turn, what it really amounts to is extending the Range entry of your novice power by your speed. You're a Doppelganger / Seismic? That means your range for the power is effectively 10, provided no creatures or other obstacles are in the way to block your copy's movement.

By the way - critical hits happen only on one in every 20 attacks. 


What should really boil your brain is this: If the duplicate acts in the initiative order directly after you and someone else is already occupying that initiative order, what happens if your initiative modifier is less than the monster or character that goes in that spot? Does your duplicate go or the monster who has a higher initiative modifier? (Your ruling: The duplicate. Mine: The higher initiative modifier). Which is correct? We'll never know until someone who designed the game starts answering questions. Until then... :D



It actually acts on the same initiative count as you. That is to say, if you're on initiative count 11, the duplicate doesn't act on a 10 - it instead acts on 11, just like a summoned monster in 3.x D&D.


I can see how it could be read that way. I read it as: The duplicate acts in the initiative order directly after you. It doesn't say "The duplicate acts directly after you in the same initiative order as you." Hence why I believe it acts in the slot right after yours.

This is based off of 4e D&D, not 3.5e anyway. And if the game is intended to be played without the D&D 4e books, people who play this game without ever having played 4e D&D or a 4e Wizard who has summoned something will not know about the summoned creature initiative.

Sure I suggest people look at those books for alternative ways to handle rules, but I try to work within the rules as written whenever possible. Sorry if you don't like that answer, just house rule away and have fun!

In a sense, the duplicate gives you an additional minor and move action.  You can't use that minor to second wind, draw or put a way a weapon, or quite a lot of other things you might want to do - and, really, most characters end most turns without using even the one minor action they have.  You can't use the extra move to get yourself out of a position you don't want to be in, either.  So, really, between it's initial range and the move action, the Doppleganger power lets you position 'yourself' offensively for a round.  You can use it to 'shoot around corners' or 'flank with yourself' or something like that.  That's not huge.

The logic about whether it's 'really you' gets weird, though.  If it duplicates with conditions you have on you at the time, then would conditions inflicted on it while it exists also affect you?  If not, why would things it uses up go away?

The whole 'creation' thing seems screwed up and irresovable in an acceptable way.  I'm thinking maybe I'll just rule that the Double Trouble causes you to occupy two no-contiguous squares for a turn.  You're still one creature, you just occupy two squares the way a large creature occupies four.  

Any obvious problems with that?

5e really needs something like Wrecan's SARN-FU to support "Theatre of the Mind."

"You want The Tooth?  You can't handle The Tooth!"  - Dahlver-Nar.

"If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly"  - E. Gary Gygax

 

 

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In a sense, the duplicate gives you an additional minor and move action.  You can't use that minor to second wind, draw or put a way a weapon, or quite a lot of other things you might want to do - and, really, most characters end most turns without using even the one minor action they have.  You can't use the extra move to get yourself out of a position you don't want to be in, either.  So, really, between it's initial range and the move action, the Doppleganger power lets you position 'yourself' offensively for a round.  You can use it to 'shoot around corners' or 'flank with yourself' or something like that.  That's not huge.

The logic about whether it's 'really you' gets weird, though.  If it duplicates with conditions you have on you at the time, then would conditions inflicted on it while it exists also affect you?  If not, why would things it uses up go away?

The whole 'creation' thing seems screwed up and irresovable in an acceptable way.  I'm thinking maybe I'll just rule that the Double Trouble causes you to occupy two no-contiguous squares for a turn.  You're still one creature, you just occupy two squares the way a large creature occupies four.  

Any obvious problems with that?


Other than the "up to 5 square" range which would indicate you could create your dupe right next to you. And you pretty much described the doppleganger's utility power.

That would be a problem with it, then.  Undecided


I keep going back on forth on how worthwhile this power is.

It lets you make a basic attack or use a power from your other origin from 5 squares (or more with a move) farther away than you would be able to, otherwise.  I suppose that's not nothing.

The reason not to allow Doppleganger powers is obvious - you could create an infinite number of Duplicates with double-trouble.

If you /do/ 'use up' ammo or encounter powers when your duplicate uses them, though, I don't see a strong reason not to allow alpha mutations or omega tech, as well - they'd just be used up, anyway.

5e really needs something like Wrecan's SARN-FU to support "Theatre of the Mind."

"You want The Tooth?  You can't handle The Tooth!"  - Dahlver-Nar.

"If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly"  - E. Gary Gygax

 

 

Oops, looks like this request tried to create an infinite loop. We do not allow such things here. We are a professional website!

OK, two 'optionally non-contiguous squares within range, then.'  ;)

The point is, it's not a duplicate, it's just being in two places at once, so if 'one of you' were lasered by a Yexil and the 'other' was slashed by a Parn, you'd take damage from both; while if you were both caught in the burst of a photon grenade or the aura of a bloodbird swarm, you'd take the damage only once (just like a large creature caught in a burst or aura).

That'd mean that when you 'duplicate' is hit, it doesn't just go pop, you take damage.  Would that make the power worse or better or different but about the same? 


It is not being in 2 places at once, it is a duplicate. Read the Doppleganger utility power "Two Places at Once".

Completely distinct powers. One you "create a minion of yourself" as worded in the book "You create a duplicate of yourself" it is not "you are in two places at once". You cannot shoot around corners, you cannot see what the duplicate sees, you cannot experience what the duplicate experiences.

Your example is incorrect for the Doppleganger's novice power. If you take damage from a yexil and your duplicate takes damage from a parn, your duplicate takes 1 hp of damage and goes away while you take damage from the yexil. You do not take damage from the parn.

And there is no "contiguous" about it at all. You can create a duplicate in any square within 5 squares of you, except, of course, the square you are currently in.

With the Two Places at Once utility power, you occupy your square and another square up to 5 squares away (yes, even the one right next to you) at the same time. as a free action, until the start of your next turn, you can teleport to that other square.

In this instance, your examples and ruling would apply. Not with the novice power.

And I said before: I could see using the standard action with your duplicate as you "pushing your standard action onto your duplicate". That works and is fine with me.



In that respect we agree, because that's what I believe the intent of the power to be. It is displacing your standard action to another location on the battlemap.

I can see how it could be read that way. I read it as: The duplicate acts in the initiative order directly after you. It doesn't say "The duplicate acts directly after you in the same initiative order as you." Hence why I believe it acts in the slot right after yours.

This is based off of 4e D&D, not 3.5e anyway. And if the game is intended to be played without the D&D 4e books, people who play this game without ever having played 4e D&D or a 4e Wizard who has summoned something will not know about the summoned creature initiative.



Even in 4E, multiple people can share the same initiative count.  Say creature A, a doppelganger, has an initiative bonus of +3 and rolls 10 on his initiative check. Creature B, a porker, has an initiative bonus of +2 and rolls 11 on his initiative check. A has a higher initiative bonus than B, so goes first even though they're still in the same initiative count (13). If A creates a duplicate, and that duplicate is treated as getting its own turn in the next initiative slot, that still means it is going on initiative count 13 in a slot created as a wedge between A and B, so: A, A dupe, B. 
Your example is incorrect for the Doppleganger's novice power. ...

I've gotten the impression from your other posts that you love to lecture us on the rules.  And that's fine, often it's helpful when the rest of us don't have a book in front of us when were at the keyboard.   But I was talking about a possible variant, not how the power currently works.   Anyway, after I posted what you quoted, I realized I read your post wrong, looked at the utility power, realized what you meant, and edited my follow-up question. 


So, clearly, having Double Trouble do something that similar to Two Places at Once isn't going to be an option...  :sigh:


I'm still having trouble with the rationale behind this power's design....


The reason not to allow Doppleganger powers is obvious - you could create an infinite number of Duplicates with double-trouble.


If you /do/ 'use up' ammo or encounter powers when your duplicate uses them, though, I don't see a strong reason not to allow alpha mutations or omega tech, as well - they'd just be used up, anyway.


...

Can you see a problem with allowing alpha & omega use if, like ammo & other-origin-encounters, they're 'used up' when the duplicate uses them?

Conversely, it might be reasonable to disallow the use of firearms and other-origin-encounter powers, as well as alpha & omega stuff.  Strictly at-wills. 

Again, to be clear, I'm talking variants, possible house rules, not a RAW or RAI ruling.

5e really needs something like Wrecan's SARN-FU to support "Theatre of the Mind."

"You want The Tooth?  You can't handle The Tooth!"  - Dahlver-Nar.

"If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly"  - E. Gary Gygax

 

 

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And I said before: I could see using the standard action with your duplicate as you "pushing your standard action onto your duplicate". That works and is fine with me.



In that respect we agree, because that's what I believe the intent of the power to be. It is displacing your standard action to another location on the battlemap.

I can see how it could be read that way. I read it as: The duplicate acts in the initiative order directly after you. It doesn't say "The duplicate acts directly after you in the same initiative order as you." Hence why I believe it acts in the slot right after yours.

This is based off of 4e D&D, not 3.5e anyway. And if the game is intended to be played without the D&D 4e books, people who play this game without ever having played 4e D&D or a 4e Wizard who has summoned something will not know about the summoned creature initiative.



Even in 4E, multiple people can share the same initiative count.  Say creature A, a doppelganger, has an initiative bonus of +3 and rolls 10 on his initiative check. Creature B, a porker, has an initiative bonus of +2 and rolls 11 on his initiative check. A has a higher initiative bonus than B, so goes first even though they're still in the same initiative count (13). If A creates a duplicate, and that duplicate is treated as getting its own turn in the next initiative slot, that still means it is going on initiative count 13 in a slot created as a wedge between A and B, so: A, A dupe, B. 


An initiative slot is not defined like that. If someone goes on initiative 11 and another on initiative 12, the slot before 12 is #11, the slot before #11 is 10, the slot after #12 is 13.

Having people go in the same slot is fine and happens all the time. Their initiative modifier dictates who goes first. If initiative modifiers are equal, I usually go to dex mod.

Anyway, the point here is that the duplicate goes in the slot folling yours. If you're in slot 11 then slot 10 is the next slet behind yours. Slots are not divided into sub-slots that you choose to name slots as well. A slot is a slot is a slot.

And just looked up the rules for summoned creatures in 4e: Summoned creatures are controlled by the person who sommoned it. That person expends actions to get the summoned creatuer to do things. So if the summoner wants the creature to use a minor action, the summoner uses his minor action and "gives" it to the summoned creature. The same with movement and with attacking. All actions originate at the summoner and are "given" to the creature.

Double Trouble, on the other hand, creates a duplicate of yourself. I will go along with it having a move, minor, and standard action. It acts during the initiative slot after yours. So if you are on slot 5, it acts on slot 4. And I'd rule (my house rule) that it moves after anything who has a higher initiative modifier than it does and that the creature would have to be in the same slot as the duplicate for this to take effect (so, if you have a +4 init and a monster has +5 init and acts in the slot after you, you create your duplicate, the monster goes, then your duplicate coes).
Your example is incorrect for the Doppleganger's novice power. ...

I've gotten the impression from your other posts that you love to lecture us on the rules.  And that's fine, often it's helpful when the rest of us don't have a book in front of us when were at the keyboard.   But I was talking about a possible variant, not how the power currently works.   Anyway, after I posted what you quoted, I realized I read your post wrong, looked at the utility power, realized what you meant, and edited my follow-up question. 


So, clearly, having Double Trouble do something that similar to Two Places at Once isn't going to be an option...  :sigh:


I'm still having trouble with the rationale behind this power's design....


The reason not to allow Doppleganger powers is obvious - you could create an infinite number of Duplicates with double-trouble.



You'd have to be supremely lucky to get any more than 2 duplicates out and be in bed with the goddess of luck to get any more than 3 or 4 out.

Your duplicate cannot use doppleganger powers so there's no way you can create dupes when it goes.

If you /do/ 'use up' ammo or encounter powers when your duplicate uses them, though, I don't see a strong reason not to allow alpha mutations or omega tech, as well - they'd just be used up, anyway.



You have to use up ammo with your duplicate since you're duplicating all of your mundane equipment as well. As stated in the rules: You either have ammo or you don't. Characters cannot share ammo during an encounter and fire their weapons a second time because the rules state that if you fire your gun more than once per encounter, you use up all your ammo. This check is made at the end of the encounter, not after each firing. So even if you "give" your duplicate your copy of your ammo after it has fired it's weapon or visa versa, you still check to see if you fired more than once with your weapon. Which, you did: once with your copy of yourself and once with you. So, guns were fired twice, no ammo after the encounter. True, it could be said that the dupe is a seperate being a complete copy. Then yeah, the doppleganger has another benefit of firing guns 2x per encounter without penalty, once from the character, once from the duplicate since neither fired twice then the character has ammo. The doppleganger can create a new duplicate every turn. So that would mean you could say that the duplicate can fire a gun each time it acts since it's a different duplicate. But then again, since you used your ammo once if you duplicate yourself after that, you can say that the duplicate is using the ammo for a second time and then you have no  more ammo at the end of the encounter. Confusing, yes. Probably the main reason why the designers have us roll our origins instead of picking them. Otherwise everyone would be dopplegangers.

...

Can you see a problem with allowing alpha & omega use if, like ammo & other-origin-encounters, they're 'used up' when the duplicate uses them?

Conversely, it might be reasonable to disallow the use of firearms and other-origin-encounter powers, as well as alpha & omega stuff.  Strictly at-wills. 

Again, to be clear, I'm talking variants, possible house rules, not a RAW or RAI ruling.


I do see a problem with letting duplicates use alpha and omega cards since dupes are not allowed to. They are obscenely powerful as is and allowing them to use the alpha and omega stuff is pushing the double trouble power to an encounter power instead of an at-will.

They are not allowed to use doppleganger powers (as stated by the raw) but they ARE allowed to use the secondary origin's powers. I would just say that encounter powers are used up for the character.

My house rules will state that you and your duplicate share ammo so either you or your dupe can fire the gun once and not lose ammo. If you both use the gun once, you lose the ammo just as if you used the ammo twice.

I understand now that you're talking variant, I think we tag teamed the thread and as I was rebutting, you were editing. heh
An initiative slot is not defined like that. If someone goes on initiative 11 and another on initiative 12, the slot before 12 is #11, the slot before #11 is 10, the slot after #12 is 13.

Having people go in the same slot is fine and happens all the time. Their initiative modifier dictates who goes first. If initiative modifiers are equal, I usually go to dex mod.

Anyway, the point here is that the duplicate goes in the slot folling yours. If you're in slot 11 then slot 10 is the next slet behind yours. Slots are not divided into sub-slots that you choose to name slots as well. A slot is a slot is a slot.

I'm sorry but it doesn't work like that. There aren't actually "slots" as such defined in the rules, that's just a term of convenience players use to describe what is more properly called "a given creature X's place in the initiative order." Any number of creatures can have the same initiative count and it doesn't mean they all share the same "slot", they still go one after the other in the initiative order, and if you create a duplicate he goes right after you before the next person in the initiative order.

A key thing to remember is that turn based combat is trying to abstractly represent "real" combat wherein everything is happening nearly simultaneously, all in a six second combat round. Creatures do not actually take turns, and if they did they would be moving at near the speed of light in a large battle with many participants.  As you are summoning your duplicate, it is already acting. It can be seen in this sense that the "standard action" required to summon the duplicate is actually distraction from reconciling two different sets of sensory input, deciding multiple things to do at once, etc.
'Directly after' would seem to mean /directly/ after.   Someone who was Delaying might slip in there... but I don't recal seeing special initiative actions.... Undecided

5e really needs something like Wrecan's SARN-FU to support "Theatre of the Mind."

"You want The Tooth?  You can't handle The Tooth!"  - Dahlver-Nar.

"If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly"  - E. Gary Gygax

 

 

Oops, looks like this request tried to create an infinite loop. We do not allow such things here. We are a professional website!