WOTC MAJOR BUG: Scout CANNOT use both Power Strike and Dual Weapon Attack

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Both Power Strike and Dual Weapon Attack are free actions.  They are also both attacks (under the new definition of attacks being attack powers with targets)  By the new free action attack rules, a scout could not use both Power Strike and Dual Weapon Attack on the same turn.

Major Bug WotC.  Fix it before publishing please.

(Also: lol.  Pointless erratta bites WotC in the ass.)
They can use both in the same round however. I doubt a fix will come.
Maybe it was intentional?
They can use both in the same round however. I doubt a fix will come.



I doubt it will come before publishing, that's for sure: the books are already being printed by now.  The fact that this class-breaking bug made it this far just makes me wonder how many people they have proofreading the stuff they come out with.

It has to come out though: the idea that a classes only available encounter power is only ever usable as an opportunity attack is laughable.

Mathematically, choosing to use Power Strike instead of Dual Weapon Attack would be retarded.  If this was intentional (it wasn't) then WotC has no damn idea what they're doing. (of course, they don't either way)
Looks like an unfortunate oversight to me as well.  

Hopefully it gets fixed. 
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
Anima, min/maxing isn't just a choice.  It's the best choice.  Fun is a finite resource, I'll have you know.  If other people are having it, that means there is less for me.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
Anima, min/maxing isn't just a choice.  It's the best choice.  Fun is a finite resource, I'll have you know.  If other people are having it, that means there is less for me.

I see. Perhaps if we were to get all the minmaxers together, and equip them with flame throwers they could have a battle royal. The winner keeps all the fun.

*looks up a reference number for a sniper*

Well, I trust you to know about flame throwing, and it sounds like it'd work in theory.

 
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
Yay! Vitriol for EVERYBODY!!!

... Somehow, I don't think that this is what this thread is about.

Anyways. Easiest thing to do is to make Power Strike or Dual Weapon attack a "stacking free action" or something like that. 
*Foxface looks at preview*

*Foxface posts comment on forum*

*No one is surprised by Foxface's opinion on latest Essentials preview*

*Foxface is tired of posting*
Essentials zigged, when I wanted to continue zagging. Roll dice, not cars.
*Foxface looks at preview*

*Foxface posts comment on forum*

*No one is surprised by Foxface's opinion on latest Essentials preview*

*Foxface is tired of posting*



After three months of Essentials previews and releases, I think I am exactly where you are right now.

so....

QF the ever loving T!



It's true I frequent the Char Op forums, and yes, I've made some... powerful builds.  In actual gameplay I currently have: A Halfling Slayer (started this weekend) a swarm druid, and a dual-whip tempest tech "controller".  None of them are optimal, all of them are fun: I don't show up to my FLGS with Gigantor or Gravedigger being all like "sup DM, let's fight Bahamut, I wanna kill him in one round!"

If power strike and dual weapon attack cannot be used at the same time, Power Strike is not at all viable.  Scouts would be strikers effectively without encounter powers OR daily powers.


*Foxface looks at preview*

*Foxface posts comment on forum*

*No one is surprised by Foxface's opinion on latest Essentials preview*

*Foxface is tired of posting*

Maybe forum unity will be restored by everyone being tired of talking about Essentials?

Why is Power Strike an attack and not a utility power, anyway? It's not making an extra attack, it's just adding to damage, like a fighter's stance.

By D&D standards, that's really a pretty minor rules glitch.

But, sure, we'll likely see relatively more such glitches going forward, one of the smaller prices to be paid for 'opening up' so much 'design space.'

 

 

Oops, looks like this request tried to create an infinite loop. We do not allow such things here. We are a professional website!

hopefully, fixings this bug will get it so that you can use flurry of blows and some other free action attack granter in the same turn.
What?! We need to perform a sweeping change to the rules to fix an Essentials class without even considering the effect it would have on every other class in the game?

Do it!

(I am looking at you Melee Training nerf...) 
What?! We need to perform a sweeping change to the rules to fix an Essentials class without even considering the effect it would have on every other class in the game?


Actually, they need to un-do a sweeping change to the rules because they apparently didn't consider its effect on an Essentials class (that was quite likely finalized before said change was implemented).

Returned from hiatus; getting up to speed on 5e rules lawyering.

You see the wonderful thing about this game is no one is holding a gun to your head when your playing it. At my table, I'd allow them to add both to a melee basic because ti seems that's why it's there.
yes the wonderful thing about this game is you have to houserule things to make them work properly. so wonderful
You see the wonderful thing about this game is no one is holding a gun to your head when your playing it. At my table, I'd allow them to add both to a melee basic because ti seems that's why it's there.



Sure. If you as a DM are ok with that. Unfortunately in our analysis of builds we tend to focus very much on RAW.

The game should work, it shouldn't require a lenient DM. 
They can use both in the same round however. I doubt a fix will come.



It has to come out though: the idea that a classes only available encounter power is only ever usable as an opportunity attack is laughable.

Mathematically, choosing to use Power Strike instead of Dual Weapon Attack would be idiotic.  If this was intentional (it wasn't) then WotC has no damn idea what they're doing. (of course, they don't either way)



Actually, mathematically choosing Power Strike is sometimes purely optimal.  A Power Strike attack would always be on the primary hand and never misses.  At least one reasonable build would be a Bastard Sword / Parrying Dagger.

Assuming normal attributes (likely an 18 in primary to begin), expected magical bonus, etc., the parrying dagger will have about a ~75% chance to hit at early levels (and will go down slightly at later levels).  At level 1, I will be generous and call it an 80% chance to hit.  That dagger will deal, on average, 4.625 damage a hit.

Power Strike with the bastard sword, on the other hand, will deal 5.5 damage on average for a normal hit and 10 damage on a critical hit.  In fact, with just about any build, power strike on a critical hit is optimal to using Dual Weapon Attack.

-SYB
Rai is pretty obvious imo.  Power Strike isn't intended to take up the character's 1/turn free action attack limit.  The scout should be fine for table play while it waits for errata, as this is how absolutely everyone will play it anyway.

Raw is also pretty clear, and pretty clearly wrong.  Errata adding 'does not count towards a characters 1/turn free attack limit' to power attack should be forthcoming.

Those saying that the restriction preventing the use of both in a single turn is intentional are just being bone headed.
Personally I don't think whether DS and PS can be used in the same round is really that big of a deal.

 Any Edition

You kidding?  Are you actually claiming that the entirety of the scout's encounter attack budget exists solely to augment opp attacks?  That's just silly.
And, yet AGAIN, why strict adherence to RAW and ignoring what is a rather clear design is a bad way to play.

Power Strike mimics the extra [W] of Encounter attack powers of other classes.  Not being "able" to use it at the same time as DWA is stupid and ridiculous. 

RAW IS NOT THE WORD OF GOD.  Use your brains, people.  I don't know if I'd rank this OHMYGODTHESKYISFALLING up there with the kerfluffle over beast form druids, but it's pretty damn close.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
You kidding?  Are you actually claiming that the entirety of the scout's encounter attack budget exists solely to augment opp attacks?  That's just silly.



Never said that.  If a Scout hits with an attack he can choose to apply the extra damage of PS or make another attack with DS.  He can still use DS on the rounds he doesn't use PS.

 Any Edition

You kidding?  Are you actually claiming that the entirety of the scout's encounter attack budget exists solely to augment opp attacks?  That's just silly.



Never said that.  If a Scout hits with an attack he can choose to apply the extra damage of PS or make another attack with DS.  He can still use DS on the rounds he doesn't use PS.



Why is it clear that PS and DWA are to be used together?

 Any Edition

Imagine for a second, the look on the new guy's face. He has just seen the Slayer whip out Power Strike, which stacked with it's do more damage all the time ability, on a two handed weapon no less!, for monster truck damage. That same round a Thief used a Trick to shift into a flank, and declares he will be using Backstab. The thief hits with combat advantage, which stacks with his do more damage all the time ability, as well as his sneak attack damage, unleashing pain and death upon the hapless foe.

It is finally his turn, this new player of a Scout. He warms up the dice with glee. A hit! He smugly informs the DM, I'm going to eviscerate this fellow, using both my Dual Weapon Strike and my Power Strike! Take that shifty little Kobold.

To withch the DM replies, those are both Free Action attack. You cannot use both in the same turn.

Huh? What? Wait.... (looks at descriptions) both require that I hit. You meN I can never use them together?

Yep.

That sucks. I want to play the Slayer.
Because PS is a direct equivalent of the fact that encounter attack powers get an extra [W].  Not being able to use it would be like telling the PHB ranger "Well, you used an encounter attack power, now you don't get your Quarry damage bonus.  Sorry."
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Meh. So you give up an extra attack once a combat (two later one).  Like I said, not a big deal either way.

 Any Edition

What strikes me funny is that people are pointing at this like it's more "Essentials is broke" fodder.

I am sorry... has anyone noticed that things like this have come along pre-Essentials?  Powers, etc., that needed some fixing.

Common sense that needed applying to get to the intent...

How can so many bright, creative minds in worlds of imagination and thought be so collapsed by a single minor rule?

I know most of us are better than that.
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Meh. So you give up an extra attack once a combat (two later one).  Like I said, not a big deal either way.

The problem is that you're better off in the vast majority of cases taking the extra attack than the +1[W].  That extra attack does 1[W].  Plus dex.  Plus enhancement.  Plus Weapon Focus.  Plus IAoP.  Plus any vulnerabilities.  Plus any bonus damage from a leader...  So the only time you should use Power Strike is when you're having serious issues hitting.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Meh. So you give up an extra attack once a combat (two later one).  Like I said, not a big deal either way.

The problem is that you're better off in the vast majority of cases taking the extra attack than the +1[W].  That extra attack does 1[W].  Plus dex.  Plus enhancement.  Plus Weapon Focus.  Plus IAoP.  Plus any vulnerabilities.  Plus any bonus damage from a leader...  So the only time you should use Power Strike is when you're having serious issues hitting.



I wouldn't say the vast majority of the time.  The vulnerabilities and leader bonuses won't happen all the time (the vulnerabilities in particular aren't that often).  It also depends on the defenses of the enemy.  Sometimes it's nice to not take a chance on hitting a second time.

Like I said it could work either way and isn't game-breaking (or class-breaking) either way.

 Any Edition

I wouldn't say the vast majority of the time.  The vulnerabilities and leader bonuses won't happen all the time (the vulnerabilities in particular aren't that often).

Lasting Frost.  Or a Morninglord.

And without vulnerabilities (that you create yourself, so ... always there), the other bonuses still add up to more than +1[W].  And the weaker option (in the vast majority of cases) is the encounter power.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Game-breaking?  Probably not - it's a relatively minor adjustment in damage output.  However, if you were to take your average PHB class and say "Hey, all your encounter powers do [W] less damage because of an arcane rule designed solely to prevent exploits" a lot of people would be posting here to complain.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
The vulnerabilities and leader bonuses won't happen all the time (the vulnerabilities in particular aren't that often). 



No offense but this sounds like you haven't played 4e that often at all above heroic tier.
To clarify my view point: I agree, it's not game-breaking to keep scouts from having any encounter power worth using.  The game still functions just fine.

But that doesn't change the fact that Power Strike is almost never worth using, if it keeps you from using your striker feature.
(To break it down, would you rather have the option of
  • 5.5 extra damage, guarenteed.

  • a 50% chance to apply 20.5 extra damage  (1[W]+dex+enh+IAoP+TWF+WF @ level 16, ignoring permafrost and a lot of other tricks))

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

The vulnerabilities and leader bonuses won't happen all the time (the vulnerabilities in particular aren't that often). 



No offense but this sounds like you haven't played 4e that often at all above heroic tier.



Yes, I haven't played beyond Heroic tier (and I am not sure I want to).  So I will admit things may be different at Paragon and Epic Tiers.

 Any Edition

To clarify my view point: I agree, it's not game-breaking to keep scouts from having any encounter power worth using.  The game still functions just fine.

But that doesn't change the fact that Power Strike is almost never worth using, if it keeps you from using your striker feature.
(To break it down, would you rather have the option of
  • 5.5 extra damage, guarenteed.

  • a 50% chance to apply 20.5 extra damage  (1[W]+dex+enh+IAoP+TWF+WF @ level 16, ignoring permafrost and a lot of other tricks))




As I said in the previous post beyond Heroic things may be different.  At the lower levels it is more of a legitimate choice.

 Any Edition

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