Precursor Golem

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Precursor Golem
Once someone casts a sorcery or instant that targets a golem, I assume sacrificing the golem to a sac engine, won't change anything, Because the copies will happen when someone casts a spell that targets one of them before you have a chance to respond?

Also Any Token golems created by Precursor Golem, Won't be under constraint of his second ability if the original leaves play?
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Precursor Golem
Once someone casts a sorcery or instant that targets a golem, I assume sacrificing the golem to a sac engine, won't change anything, Because the copies will happen when someone casts a spell that targets one of them before you have a chance to respond?



The ability triggers when the spell is cast.  Once it's triggeed removing the Precursor Golem won't stop the ability from resolving.  When it resolves, it'll make a copy for each other Golem that's on the battlefield at that time.

Also Any Token golems created by Precursor Golem, Won't be under constraint of his second ability if the original leaves play?



The triggered ability is on Precursor Golem.  If the Precursor Golem isn't on the battlefield when the spell is cast, there's no ability there to trigger.
1: Correct.  The Golem's ability triggers as soon as the spell is cast.  You can respond by sacrificing it (or whatever else) before the copies are created, but that won't stop them from being created.

2:  Also correct.  When the original Precursor Golem leaves the battlefield, its ability is no longer in effect so later spells will not be copied.
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1. Once an instant or sorcery is cast and targets a single golem, the Precursor Golem's trigger will go off and get put on the stack. As with all spells and abilities, removing the source of the ability after its already on the stack won't change anything - the spell will still get copied for all other golems on the battlefield. The original, 'real' spell will fizzle though if it makes a difference (it might net them one less card if they're using something like Slice In Twain).

2. Correct - an ability only functions while on the battlefield unless it specifies otherwise or could only logically function from another zone (ie. Kuldotha Phoenix, Bloodghast).
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Precursor Golem
Once someone casts a sorcery or instant that targets a golem, I assume sacrificing the golem to a sac engine, won't change anything, Because the copies will happen when someone casts a spell that targets one of them before you have a chance to respond?


The ability has already triggered, and will make a copy even if you sacrifice the goblin.  Of course the copy will fizzle because it no longer has a legal target.


Also Any Token golems created by Precursor Golem, Won't be under constraint of his second ability if the original leaves play?


The tokens made by the Precursor don't have the same ability as the Precursor.  But, if you make a copy of the Precursor, the copy will have the same ability as the original.
Precursor Golem
Once someone casts a sorcery or instant that targets a golem, I assume sacrificing the golem to a sac engine, won't change anything, Because the copies will happen when someone casts a spell that targets one of them before you have a chance to respond?

The Golem's ability triggers as soon as the spell is cast.

Neither sacrificing the Precursor Golem nor the golem that is the target of the spell will stop the ability from resolving and creating the relevant number of copies; the Precursor because the ability exists independantly of the source, and the target Golem because the triggered ability does not check whether the spell still targets a single Golem when it (the ability) resolves. Therefore the copies of the spell are still created (one for each Golem not the original target.) Since the trigger is not targeted, countering the spell won't stop the copies either.

The only two thngs that will are (a) countering the triggered ability, or (b) causing all the Golems on the battlefield to leave the battlefield or otherwise cease being Golems.

Also Any Token golems created by Precursor Golem, Won't be under constraint of his second ability if the original leaves play?

No, the tokens don't have the copy-triigger that the original does. If the original is not on the battlefield, its abilites are not active.
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What If I cast Shelter on Precursor Golem (with the two golem tokens on my side of the battlefield) in response to an opponents Chandra's Outrage?
 
Do I still take damage from the instant and its 2 copies?
What If I cast Shelter on Precursor Golem (with the two golem tokens on my side of the battlefield) in response to an opponents Chandra's Outrage?
 

Do I still take damage from the instant and its 2 copies?



Chandra's Outrage has a single target: one of the golems (it doesn't damage "target creature and target player", just "target creature and that creature's controller", so you're not a target). If this target becomes illegal (due to having protection), then the spell is countered and you don't take damage from it.


This happen to all the copies and to the original, so no damage to you nor to your golems.
[<o>]
This happen to all the copies and to the original, so no damage to you nor to your golems.



Chalk one up for Precusor!
But what about Slice in Twain in place of Chandra's Outrage in that situation?
Does my opponent still draw the cards?
No. They are countered and have no effect.
I'm assuming that if say the a lightning bolt is cast that Emerged Unscathed choosing red would protect the lot of 'em. Is this correct?

Please autocard. [[/c]c]Emerge Unscathed => Emerge Unscathed.


I'm assuming that if say the a lightning bolt is cast that Emerged Unscathed choosing red would protect the lot of 'em. Is this correct?



Yes. They all will have protection from red, so each Lightning Bolt will be countered.

[<o>]
Thank you and sorry about that. I keep forgetting.

I do have another scenario. Would Windborne Charge which targets two golems result in all the golems getting +4/+4 instead of +2/+2?
Windborne Charge has more than one target, so it won't cause Precursor Golem's ability to trigger at all.
Thank you and sorry about that. I keep forgetting. I do have another scenario. Would Windborne Charge which targets two golems result in all the golems getting +4/+4 instead of +2/+2?


Windborne Charge has two targets.  It won't get copied at all.  Precursor Golem only copies a spell if it a) has exactly one target, and b) that target is a golem (permanent).
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Oh I'm sorry. I should read the full text of Precursor Golem I guess. My apologies.
Thank you and sorry about that. I keep forgetting. I do have another scenario. Would Windborne Charge which targets two golems result in all the golems getting +4/+4 instead of +2/+2?


Windborne Charge has two targets.  It won't get copied at all.  Precursor Golem only copies a spell if it a) has exactly one target, and b) that target is a golem (permanent).



Are you sure about that last part?  Since it doesn't say "Goblin permanent", shouldn't it also trigger if a spell targets Crib Swap?
"Golem" means "Golem permanent on the battlefield".
Thank you and sorry about that. I keep forgetting. I do have another scenario. Would Windborne Charge which targets two golems result in all the golems getting +4/+4 instead of +2/+2?


Windborne Charge has two targets.  It won't get copied at all.  Precursor Golem only copies a spell if it a) has exactly one target, and b) that target is a golem (permanent).



Are you sure about that last part?  Since it doesn't say "Goblin permanent", shouldn't it also trigger if a spell targets Crib Swap?


A "Golem" is a "Golem permanent" and it only remains a "Golem" for as long as it stays on the battlefield.  On the stack it is a "Golem spell" and in any other zone it is a "Golem card."  Yes I'm sure, and no it wouldn't trigger:
109.2. If a spell or ability uses a description of an object that includes a card type or subtype, but doesn't include the word "card," "spell," "source," or "scheme," it means a permanent of that card type or subtype on the battlefield.



It says "Golem" and it doesn't say "card," "spell," "source," or "scheme," so it triggers whenever a player casts an instant or sorcery spell that targets only a single Golem permanent on the battlefield.  It won't trigger when you cast a spell that targets a Crib Swap or a Nameless Inversion.
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Thank you and sorry about that. I keep forgetting. I do have another scenario. Would Windborne Charge which targets two golems result in all the golems getting +4/+4 instead of +2/+2?


Windborne Charge has two targets.  It won't get copied at all.  Precursor Golem only copies a spell if it a) has exactly one target, and b) that target is a golem (permanent).



Are you sure about that last part?  Since it doesn't say "Goblin permanent", shouldn't it also trigger if a spell targets Crib Swap?


A "Golem" is a "Golem permanent" and it only remains a "Golem" for as long as it stays on the battlefield.  On the stack it is a "Golem spell" and in any other zone it is a "Golem card."  Yes I'm sure, and no it wouldn't trigger:
109.2. If a spell or ability uses a description of an object that includes a card type or subtype, but doesn't include the word "card," "spell," "source," or "scheme," it means a permanent of that card type or subtype on the battlefield.



It says "Golem" and it doesn't say "card," "spell," "source," or "scheme," so it triggers whenever a player casts an instant or sorcery spell that targets only a single Golem permanent on the battlefield.  It won't trigger when you cast a spell that targets a Crib Swap or a Nameless Inversion.


Thanks for the explanation.
 
Crib Swap would still make golems because of the changeling ability....that's kind of funny in and of itself, though removing the original Precursor Golem would eliminate the shenanigans of it all, I guess.
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Crib Swap would still make golems because of the changeling ability....that's kind of funny in and of itself, though removing the original Precursor Golem would eliminate the shenanigans of it all, I guess.


Well you could always just counter the Crib Swap that targets the original Precursor Golem.  We have already shown that that won't make copies targeting the other copies of Crib Swap ;)
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I am now wondering how Flesh Allergy interacts with Precursor Golem.
If my opponent casts a Flesh Allergy on my Precursor Golem, and I have two other "golems" on the battlefield, will he/she have to copy the Flesh Allergy two more times? Will he/she have to sacrifice creatures to the copies as well?
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Sacrificing a creature is part of Flesh Allergy's cost. You don't have to pay any costs for a spell when copying it.

If you have Precursor Golem out with its two 3/3 golem tokens that come with it, and Flesh Allergy is cast on one of them, then it will be copied for each other golem (this is not optional). The end result is that all your golems are destroyed, and you lose at least 9 life.
Sacrificing a creature is part of Flesh Allergy's cost. You don't have to pay any costs for a spell when copying it.

If you have Precursor Golem out with its two 3/3 golem tokens that come with it, and Flesh Allergy is cast on one of them, then it will be copied for each other golem (this is not optional). The end result is that all your golems are destroyed, and you lose at least 9 life.



Sexy. I didn't think about that. Flesh Allergy will be copied 3 times and work independantly doing at least 3 damage per spell? + the one creature originally sacrificed to the first flesh allergy?

And if there were 5 golems? It would copy it 5 times, you'd only have to sacrifice 1 creature, but it would do at least 25 damage?
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Sacrificing a creature is part of Flesh Allergy's cost. You don't have to pay any costs for a spell when copying it.

If you have Precursor Golem out with its two 3/3 golem tokens that come with it, and Flesh Allergy is cast on one of them, then it will be copied for each other golem (this is not optional). The end result is that all your golems are destroyed, and you lose at least 9 life.



Sexy. I didn't think about that. Flesh Allergy will be copied 3 times and work independantly doing at least 3 damage per spell? + the one creature originally sacrificed to the first flesh allergy?

And if there were 5 golems? It would copy it 5 times, you'd only have to sacrifice 1 creature, but it would do at least 25 damage?

Assuming one Precursor and four other Golems, and nothing else has gone to the graveyard yet, the first copy to resolve would cause a loss of two life (one for the golem and one for the creature sacrificed to  the Allergy), the second would cause three and the third four, and so on. Final total is 6+5+4+3+2 or twenty life lost. But yes, it would only cost you one creature.

EDIT: Forgot the allery sacrifice. Oops.
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Sacrificing a creature is part of Flesh Allergy's cost. You don't have to pay any costs for a spell when copying it.

If you have Precursor Golem out with its two 3/3 golem tokens that come with it, and Flesh Allergy is cast on one of them, then it will be copied for each other golem (this is not optional). The end result is that all your golems are destroyed, and you lose at least 9 life.



Sexy. I didn't think about that. Flesh Allergy will be copied 3 times and work independantly doing at least 3 damage per spell? + the one creature originally sacrificed to the first flesh allergy?

And if there were 5 golems? It would copy it 5 times, you'd only have to sacrifice 1 creature, but it would do at least 25 damage?

Assuming one Precursor and four other Golems, and nothing else has gone to the graveyard yet, the first copy to resolve would cause a loss of one life, the second would cause two and the third three, and so on. Final total is 5+4+3+2+1 or fifteen life lost. I'm not sure where MrQuizzles got 9 life from, since the copies do not resolve simultaneously. But yes, it would only cost you one creature.



Great now I am confused. I would at least figure the first one would be 2 life since you have to sacrifice a creature to the Flesh allergy, So would it be 2,3,4,5,6 = 20?
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Great now I am confused. I would at least figure the first one would be 2 life since you have to sacrifice a creature to the Flesh allergy, So would it be 2,3,4,5,6 = 20?

That's correct.

Each Allergy counts the number of creatures sent to graveyards since the turn began. Since the Allergy requires a sacrifice, then the sacrificed creature will be counted for all insstances of the Allergy.
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now lets say many copies of Precursor GolemImage.ashx?type=card&name=Precursor Golem is made with a prototype portal so there is like 6 precursor Golem and 12 tokens that is with them, and then some one cast a instill infection on a golem, would the second ability of each of the 6 precursor golems activate its secondary ability? causeing instill infection to be copied 6 times per golem? giving each golem -6/-6 and causeing the player draw 18*6= 108 cards? i know this is an extreme example but its made to prove a point
In this case, no. Once enough copies of Instill Infection have resolved to send each other golem to the graveyard (through -1/-1 counters), every subequent copy would be countered upon resolution for having no legal targets or simply not get made at all (if there are no other golems around when Precursor Golem's triggered ability resolves, no copies will be made). Nothing would get a -1/-1 counter and no cards would be drawn after that point.

Here's the exact order in which things would happen:
-Instill Infection is cast, targeting a golem.
-6 different copies of Precursor Golem's second ability trigger and are put on the stack.
-The first copy of the golem's ability resolves, creating 17 copies of Instill Infection.
-Each of these will resolve, putting a -1/-1 counter on each other golem and making their controller draw 17 cards.
-The second copy of the golem's ability resolves, creating another 17 copies of Instill Infection.
-These also resolve.
-The third copy of the golem's ability resolves, creating another 17 copies, which resolve.
-At this point, all of the other golems have 3 -1/-1 counters on them and will usually be put into the graveyard as a state based action.
-The fourth copy of the golem's ability resolves, creating no copies of Instill Infection since no other golems exist.
-The same goes for the fifth and sixth copies.
-The original Instill Infection resolves on the remaining golem.

(thank you, i didnt get the edit before posting this)
what im getting at is does each of the secondary abilitys of all 6 of the precursor golems trigger on each of the golems?

or if they were giant growthed
granting each golem +3/+3 per precursor golem?

thus adding +18/+18 for each golem?

Yes, each Precursor Golem that is in play would have its ability trigger.
If there were 6 precursor golems, then each other golem would get +18/+18. The one that was originally targeted would only get +3/+3 since no copies are made for it.
sweetness, thank you very much :-) i copied this and sent it to my FNM's host store owner, as we had a debate on this earlier today. thank you kindly for your time. this makes them epic to play aswell as needing opponent shroud.
what im getting at is does each of the secondary abilitys of all 6 of the precursor golems trigger on each of the golems?

The term "secondary ability" is confusing, because it implies that the spell-copying abiliuty is somehow less important to the card (when it's probably the other way around.) It's the second ability.

The answer is "Yes, all the Golems trigger, but that probably won't matter." You resolve one of the Precursor copy triggers, and then all the copies it creates, before moving on to the second trigger. Thus, after resolving three of the triggers, and the subsequent copies of the Infection, the only Golem on the battlefield is the one targeted by the original spell. Consequently the last three copy triggers produce no copies of the Instill Infection.

Finally the originally-targeted Golem gets a -1/-1 counter, making it 2/2.

or if they were giant growthed
granting each golem +3/+3 per precursor golem?

thus adding +18/+18 for each golem?

Yes, each golem except the one originally targeted, which gets +3/+3.
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Yes, each Precursor Golem that is in play would have its ability trigger.
If there were 6 precursor golems, then each other golem would get +18/+18. The one that was originally targeted would only get +3/+3 since no copies are made for it.



Wouldn't the other precursor golems make copies for him, so The original would have one less copy made or something. I don't think you are correct here. I really don't know though.
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Yes, each Precursor Golem that is in play would have its ability trigger.
If there were 6 precursor golems, then each other golem would get +18/+18. The one that was originally targeted would only get +3/+3 since no copies are made for it.

Wouldn't the other precursor golems make copies for him, so The original would have one less copy made or something. I don't think you are correct here. I really don't know though.

No, the Precursors all treat the target of the original spell as not valid for a copy.

The ability says
Whenever a player casts an instant or sorcery spell that targets only a single Golem, that player copies that spell for each other Golem that spell could target. Each copy targets a different one of those Golems.

If there are 28 Golems on the battlefield, the spell will be replicated 27 times.
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Yes, each Precursor Golem that is in play would have its ability trigger.
If there were 6 precursor golems, then each other golem would get +18/+18. The one that was originally targeted would only get +3/+3 since no copies are made for it.

Wouldn't the other precursor golems make copies for him, so The original would have one less copy made or something. I don't think you are correct here. I really don't know though.

No, the Precursors all treat the target of the original spell as not valid for a copy.

The ability says
Whenever a player casts an instant or sorcery spell that targets only a single Golem, that player copies that spell for each other Golem that spell could target. Each copy targets a different one of those Golems.

If there are 28 Golems on the battlefield, the spell will be replicated 27 times.


cool, i get it.Thanks for taking the time to explain it.
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My question is on the thread is what if "rite of replication" was cast and targeting a "Precursor GolemImage.ashx?type=card&name=Precursor%20Golem"... 

Remember the wording is "a player casts" and not copied... isnt it just go and just go thru and make 20 total
Precursor GolemImage.ashx?type=card&name=Precursor%20Golems?
My question is on the thread is what if "rite of replication" was cast and targeting a Precursor Golem

Remember the wording is "a player casts" and not copied... isnt it just go and just go thru and make 20 total Precursor Golem


What does the board state look like beforehand? And was it kicked? 

If there were a precursor golem and its two golem tokens and it was kicked, you'd end up with 20 more golem tokens and 5 more precursor golem tokens, for a total of 28 golems, 6 of which are precursors. 
All Generalizations are Bad
four Precursor GolemImage.ashx?type=card&name=Precursor%20Golems on the board and the Rite was kicked
four Precursor Golems on the board and the Rite was kicked

What about the tokens those Precursors made? And were there any other Golem permanents on the field?
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