Doppleganger's Double Trouble

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So.. what gets duplicated? Guns? Ammo? Can you use double trouble every round, using a standard action, creating a duplicate every round, then have it fire(duplicate) ammo from a (duplicate) gun and not have it affect your own ammo, since you've never fired it? How about melee weapons? Armor?
Everything gets duplicated, but the ammo is a good question. I'm also looking at it's use with origins that only have encounter novice powers. This power needs more definition, I think.
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I would have to rule that you create a version of yourself with mundane equipment intact. The duplicate can use your other origin's powers, but as the RAW states: No alpha mutations, doppleganger powers, or omega tech.

If you watch Anime, think of it as Naruto and his shadow clones. The clones have Kunai and other mundane weapons, but tend to do a lot of martial arts attacks. Those clones cannot use shadow clone technique, but are able to use other techniques like Sage Mode, Rasengan, etc. So they act like Naruto, but they do not last long in battle.

A distinct power of the shadow clone technique: The clones act, move, and appear from all levels to be the actual person except they are easily dispelled if you do any damage to them (even if they trip and fall a few feet).

Another is that anyone who uses shadow clones gains the knowledge that clone accumulated upon it's dispelling. In the anime, this allows Naruto to do massive amounts of training, scouting, etc. in a very short amount of time.

You could rule that the duplicate does the same thing and might, upon dispelling, give bonuses to attack (such as +1 per clone) due to seperate vantage points or even provide aid in skill checks.

Again, since I see the shadow clones mimic non-shadow clone powers and use weapons/armor/clothes they wouldn't necessarily have, I would rule that mundane objects only are copied. Those objects also disappear after use.

So if you had a mundane gun with ammo, then they're duplicated with all the rules imparted for ammo usage. Though I'd limit that and say that there is only 1 shot for the clone and their weapon locks. To keep someone from creating a clone, blasting the hell out of everything, then letting it go away without using his normal clip.

That, or you rule that weapons get split between the character and the clones. So the player has to choose which weapons go where. This makes more sense and doesn't bring in ammo duplication to overcomplicate the game or give someone an automatic unlimited amount of ammo each round.
Ammo and Encounter powers are intended as hard limits on each player. In my game, at least, if your Double uses your Encounter power, it counts for both of you. If your Double runs out of Ammo, so have you. For that matter, if you use your gun once, and your Double uses his gun, you have used your gun more than once and it is out of Ammo.

Double Trouble is best for basic attacks, at-wills, and getting twice as many chances to line up a good Encounter power. It does NOT give you two Encounter Powers every Encounter! Nor does it empower you to fire your gun twice without penalty! 
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Ammo and Encounter powers are intended as hard limits on each player. In my game, at least, if your Double uses your Encounter power, it counts for both of you. If your Double runs out of Ammo, so have you. For that matter, if you use your gun once, and your Double uses his gun, you have used your gun more than once and it is out of Ammo.

Double Trouble is best for basic attacks, at-wills, and getting twice as many chances to line up a good Encounter power. It does NOT give you two Encounter Powers every Encounter! Nor does it empower you to fire your gun twice without penalty! 



I've gotta agree with this, as funny as the options are, you need to limit it or it might get crazy.
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Ammo and Encounter powers are intended as hard limits on each player. In my game, at least, if your Double uses your Encounter power, it counts for both of you. If your Double runs out of Ammo, so have you. For that matter, if you use your gun once, and your Double uses his gun, you have used your gun more than once and it is out of Ammo.

Double Trouble is best for basic attacks, at-wills, and getting twice as many chances to line up a good Encounter power. It does NOT give you two Encounter Powers every Encounter! Nor does it empower you to fire your gun twice without penalty! 



I've gotta agree with this, as funny as the options are, you need to limit it or it might get crazy.

Yep, what DoctorComics said makes sense. Though I sort of like the Naruto solution
I shoulda read this earlier. My buddy and I just did a quick and dirty run with no DM and we both ended up rolling Doppleganger. We decided that armor was duplicated but not weapons. They still performed well slapping guys for us but they weren't a huge threat without their respective aluminum bat or replica swords.. Next time...

Also had lots of fun! we still need to get a group together but I think our characters might last a while longer.
Ammo and Encounter powers are intended as hard limits on each player. In my game, at least, if your Double uses your Encounter power, it counts for both of you. If your Double runs out of Ammo, so have you. For that matter, if you use your gun once, and your Double uses his gun, you have used your gun more than once and it is out of Ammo.

Double Trouble is best for basic attacks, at-wills, and getting twice as many chances to line up a good Encounter power. It does NOT give you two Encounter Powers every Encounter! Nor does it empower you to fire your gun twice without penalty! 



This. We had a Doppleganger Telekinetic in the party last game, and they DEFINITELY don't need extra uses of Encounter Powers. Dopplegangers are a hell of a lot of fun, and very powerful, but I will definitely be using the above rule.
Okay, check this.  If you can, as a standard action, bring out a duplicate each round, and the duplicate lasts until the end of your next turn, then you should be able in all rounds except the first have TWO duplicates out there, right?  And then each get a full set of actions?

And then what order do they go in?  I'd say they both kind of go at the same time (like a group of monsters) after the person that created them.

Then add if you have the doppleganger critical at 2nd level.  And you're an android standing next to a machine that lets you substitute a standard for a minor!  (This actually happened when we were playing tonight).  So now you have a round where you could have THREE dopplegangers out because on a crit you get a free action that allows you to bring out a doppleganger and you can substitute you minor action for a standard to create another!  (headache)

Screw the how much ammo do people have question.    This is what made our DM argue with us tonight.  Essentially she was saying you can't have more than one duplicate at a time.  We argued you could, cause there's nothing in the book that says you can't (unlike a Warden's Spirit companion in D&D).

Thanks for allowing me to blow you minds, or please tell me how I'm wrong and you can only have one doppleganger out at a time (which would simplify things greatly).

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

Each duplicate lasts until the end of the payer's next turn after they were created.  Since the duplicate acts directly after the player, each duplicate will only ever get one turn to act before they vanish.  Thus the only way to have two duplicates able to act in the same term is to either find an extra standard action or use the doppelganger critical.

So right, you can have two duplicates out there at a time then, or conceivably more if you get an extra standard and a doppleganger crit but each doppleganger, no matter how many you have, will only get to attack one time before they vanish.  Good point.

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

Though to be exact, when I think it through, you could have three out a time, but one is going to disappear right away at the end of your turn so it's going to be for a VERY short time.

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

And as far as the ammo and equipment question goes, we've been ruling that you do duplicate ammo and equipment.  Since ammo is limited in an abstract way, we found it didn't really break the game to have a guy with an extra set of ammo for one round.  Especially when we had a guy that had ammo already and then rolled that he found more ammo on the ancient junk table - so we ruled he had "2 ammos" , so he used ammo mulitple times one encounter and then used his other ammo the next encounter multiple times, then he was out.  Nothing in the rules that says it does or doesn't duplicate stuff either way that I could find so your GM may rule differently.  Probably grounds for erratta here.   Encounter powers though, no.  Those are definitely limited.  And as far as omega tech goes dopplegangers can't use that stuff anyway.

And as soon as you use up your ammo, problem solved.

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

Ammo cannot be saved up. "You either have ammo or you don't." There is no provision in the rules for ammo (2) or ammo (3). Ammo is binary.

Nothing prevents you from house ruling this, of course. What you do at your table is your business. But in the RAW, if you already have ammo, finding ammo does you no good.
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Ammo cannot be saved up. "You either have ammo or you don't." There is no provision in the rules for ammo (2) or ammo (3). Ammo is binary.

Nothing prevents you from house ruling this, of course. What you do at your table is your business. But in the RAW, if you already have ammo, finding ammo does you no good.



That's a good way to explain it - binary.  Very clear.  So one person either has ammo or not, no matter how much you find. 

But I think if I'm running it I'll still say that if a doppleganger has ammo when he creates a duplicate, then the duplicate has it until the duplicate uses it or until the duplicate dissapears.  However, this could lead to a doppleganger hoarding his ammo forever and just creating duplicates that use it every time they come out, so that could be seen as an exploit.  Regardless, clarification from Wizards on a duplicate's equipment would be nice.

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

My interpretation is that the doppleganger only acts once before being dispelled, right after you do.  If the ammo is duplicated, that would give the PC the advantage of a free move (after he creates the copy, both get a move action)  and unlimited ammo (he would never have to fire his weapon if he uses the power every turn).  Both could be retreating and the doppleganger doing all the firing, for example.


I don't think using a doppleganger to simulate infinite ammo (basically) is what WoC had in mind (edit- for a first level character).  I'll wait for the official errata

"Remember, we are the music makers. We are the dreamer of the dreams." -Willy Wonka
I ruled that since the Doppleganger is a copy of you and your equipment (minus Omega Tech and Alpha Mutations) that it could use any mundane weapons that used ammo.

Since the Doppleganger is still a part of that PC, if the Doppleganger uses ammo more than once, the PC is out of ammo. If the PC uses ammo and his Doppleganger uses ammo, the PC is out of ammo. Basically, I just extend the Doppleganger to be a part of the PC (which it is) and therefore falls under the abstract ammo rules.

Though, I did later state that if they found ammo (which one player did) he could use the weapon multiple times. If he used it once, all ammo is saved. If he uses it more than once, he loses an ammo for each use above 1.

So, basically, he can use his weapon X times (X=1) without wasting ammo. If he uses his weapon X + Y times, he has to discard 1 ammo per Y. So based on the rules and finding more ammo, if he'd found 3 ammo, he could fire his gun 1 + 3 times and still have 1 ammo left. If it goes above *TOTAL AMMO OWNED*, he loses all ammo.
I ruled that since the Doppleganger is a copy of you and your equipment (minus Omega Tech and Alpha Mutations) that it could use any mundane weapons that used ammo.

Since the Doppleganger is still a part of that PC, if the Doppleganger uses ammo more than once, the PC is out of ammo. If the PC uses ammo and his Doppleganger uses ammo, the PC is out of ammo. Basically, I just extend the Doppleganger to be a part of the PC (which it is) and therefore falls under the abstract ammo rules.





That's what I was thinking.  Would the clone also project line of sight for targetting, you think?  So he could shoot at targets you can't see.  Great for shooting around corners.
"Remember, we are the music makers. We are the dreamer of the dreams." -Willy Wonka
There is nothing in the rules that state the PC shares sensory information with his Doppleganger. I would therefore rule that the PC cannot use the clone's line of sight for targetting.

That could change if the PC was under the influence of an Alpha Mutation that allowed this to happen...
There is nothing in the rules that state the PC shares sensory information with his Doppleganger. I would therefore rule that the PC cannot use the clone's line of sight for targetting.

That could change if the PC was under the influence of an Alpha Mutation that allowed this to happen...





I would think that the PC can target what it sees and the Clone can target what the Clone sees.  It makes no sense to say the PC has to have LOS to the clones target.
Wow, this power is even more confusing than I initially thought - and I inititially thought it made no sense at all!

You spend a standard action to create a duplicate who can take one standard action before it disapears.  Wow, you're up a move and minor - neither of which /you/ can actually use.   I suppose it'd occassionally be helpful in positioning.


What's clearly very unclear is to what extent the duplicate 'is' you, and to what extent it's separate.

The wording doesn't help much, it says it can't use your doppleganger powers or omega tech.  Presumably that means it can use everything else - you alpha mutations, the powers of it's other source, and it's gear.  It also pops when it takes damage.  Presumably, you don't take damage it does, or gain gear it picks up, so it seems a little odd that you might lose gear it drops or expends, have LoS from it, or anything else like that. 

The whole power seems more than a little odd, really.   It might've worked better if it was a minor action that simply caused you to occupy to separate squares, but remain 1 character.  Paradoxical, perhaps, but sometimes paradox isn't so hard to model in a game. 

 

 

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The power IS potent tactically, even without all this ammo discussion.

Move up to desired enemy in melee, doppel yourself into flanking. Whee.

Make a doppel so you can shoot around a corner without exposing yourself.

Make one to block a pathway, opp attacking anyone who tries to pass.

If nothing else, it pretty much extends the range of ANYTHING you want to do by 10 squares (5 to clone, 5+ to move)
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One of my player is playing:

Abraham Lincoln - Greatest President of the United States of America!

His duplicate is always a random Vice President. (Seen as how the PC is a addeled Museam guard granted dupilcation powers....)

He's discovered double gunning is fine as long as he and the dupe only fire once. Basically treat the dupe as a hidden extra character. It has 1 shot of ammo just like the PC, and if it uses it up and the dupe can't fire it's gun from that point forward (unless the PC gives up his Ammo to the dupe).

That worked out fine for me.

When Vice President Han Solo charged in guns blazing, Mr. President nodded his head and passed his ammo over the Vice President because he liked the cut of his jib.