Engineered Humans Question

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No, only Enhanced Humans.  Enhanced Humans are ALWAYS a secondary origin, explicitly.  Enhanced Humans have NO power source, explicitly.  The overcharge bonus clarified on pg 34 is ONLY applicable to your primary origin, and ALWAYS based off said primary origin's power source.  

Therefore, true to an actual exception-based design scheme, Enhanced Humans, being the exception to the rule that they can never be a primary origin explicitly per their own rules text, and the exception to the template of having a power source (they have none, explicitly), but having an explicit +2 to all overcharge rolls, are the exception to the rule.  They, and they alone, have a blanket +2 to all overcharge rolls that are above and beyond that mentioned on pg 34.  Explicitly.  Nothing in their text leaves an opening for them later being a primary origin, as there is only one way per the rules to become an Enhanced Human (rolling the same origin twice, EH becomes your secondary).

Nowhere did I say that any other type of character gets both overcharge bonuses.



I will not labor the point that EH can be primary.

Your reading of page 34 is right, but remember that this is the base form of the rule, the genral rule. For it to be contradicted there needs to be a more specific rule. So with the EH in mind this means one of two things: That if EH is primary (by the "Big Chicken" rule set, or house rule to be primary instead of secondary) then it grats +2 to all overcharge rolls. Or that it's entry allows it to grant +2 to all when it is secondary. The problem with the second option is it is not worded an different than the other 20 origins overcharge rules (+2 to X overcharge, x=all for EH, which is unigue, but doesn't chang the templating which means they act the same). So following the wording then all would grant bonuses because of their entry (again because there is no change in text or template), which makes the rule on page 34 pointless, as why not just say you get +2 to overcharges to either power source (the +2 from page 34's rule of primary/primaries entry, and then using the secondary +2 that come from having to apply your interpretation of EH across the board since there is nothing to distinguish the EH text from the other templating). So why include that part of the rule if it is only going to be contradicted later. The easier explanation is that the intention of the RAW is to provide rules for the house rulers and big chickens, which invalidates nor makes pointless any of the general rules provided in the book.

General versus Specific means that when a power or other entry contradicts a general rule it wins. +2 to all over charge therefore beats +2 to same powersource overcharges. No where in the EH entry is there a rule that says it gives a bonus as a secondary origin. Also the book doesn't say you can't have it as primary (and in fact provide 2 alternatives that allow it). So you started with a falacy (that EH can never be primary) and then decided that since it had an entry for something that by your falcy will never come up, that it must be an exception to a rule it does not contradict in anyway. SHow me where it says the EH grants a bonus as a secondary origin, if not than it doesn't contradict that rule.

You are free to house rule as you see fit of course.
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OK, I really don't understand the confusion on this anymore. I've read over the pages in question multiple times.

Fact 1: RAW state that you roll 2d20 for your origins. Your first roll indicates your primary. Your second roll indicates your secondary. If your primary and secondary are the same, your secondary is Engineered Human. This is per the random rolling method, the primary method presented in the book on pages 30 and 34.

Fact 2: General rule: You add the bonuses from both of your origins' traits. So if you have a skill bonus to Interaction from Mind Breaker and also from Enhanced Human, you have a +8 in that skill as an origin trait bonus.

Fact 3: Specific rule: Your overcharge bonus comes solely from your primary origin. This is found on page 67 in the Overcharging Alpha Powers sidebar and on page 34 under Using Character Origins: Traits.

So, it's plain and simple. Using un-modified, non-house-ruled RAW random origin selection, an Engineered Human origin can only be a secondary origin. It is not in the table to be rolled anyway so there is only one way to obtain it: by rolling the same origin twice.

If your DM allows you to choose one or both of your origins, then you could select EH as your primary and something else as your secondary (by choosing or rolling).

No confusion what-so-ever...unless you want to try to choose EH for both of your origins in an attempt to create a Pure Strain Human... >)
Fact 1: RAW state that you roll 2d20 for your origins. Your first roll indicates your primary. Your second roll indicates your secondary. If your primary and secondary are the same, your secondary is Engineered Human. This is per the random rolling method, the primary method presented in the book on pages 30 and 34...

...Using un-modified, non-house-ruled RAW random origin selection, an Engineered Human origin can only be a secondary origin.

You're reading too much  into it being the 'primary' method.  Primary <> Only <> RAW.  It is the default method, but it is not the /only/ method.  You can have a primary-Engineered-Human. 

 

 

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Read everything and then use a little thing called context. I do not state it is the only method. There IS no confusion on this rule and you're reading too far into it. Reread my post and digest everything in context.
Since an EH is so damned hard to come by in the first place, I'm ruling that my players will get to use the no power sourced +2 to overcharge rolls in addition to their power sourced bonus from their primary origin.

This is due to the statements that you get a +2 bonus to overcharge of your power source from your primary origin.  The EH has no power source. So its dodging page 34 in my game.
Actually, it isn't. Your EH is your secondary origin and therefore does not provide an overcharge bonus. Period.

As quoted, no mistake, no confusion:

"You gain a +2 bonus to overcharge rolls on Alpha powers that have the same power source as your primary origin."

How in the hell can you confuse a secondary origin having no type skipping around this rule?

House rules are perfectly fine and if that's how you rule, that's cool. But if you want to run RAW with default options (IE not allowing your players to choose their origins) then a character will never, let me repeat that: NEVER gain overcharge bonuses from their secondary origin no matter what it is or what it's powersource is.

The specific rule, again is: "You gain a +2 bonus to overcharge rolls on Alpha powers that have the same power source as your primary origin."

It is not confusing in the least. Again, house rules are fine and allowing players to choose as per the side bar is fine as well.

If a player chooses the character's primary origin to be Enhanced Human, then the character gains a +2 bonus to overcharge for Bio, Dark, and Psi Alpha Mutations. The none in the power source for Enhanced Humans is more specific than the above rule when it is being used as a primary origin in this case the rule, for Enhanced Human as primary would be:

"You gain a +2 bonus to all overcharge rolls on Alpha powers, regardless of power source, if your primary origin is Enhanced Human. Otherwise, you gain a +2 bonus to overcharge rolls on Alpha powers that have the same power source as your primary origin."
Actually, it isn't. Your EH is your secondary origin and therefore does not provide an overcharge bonus. Period.

As quoted, no mistake, no confusion:

"You gain a +2 bonus to overcharge rolls on Alpha powers that have the same power source as your primary origin."

How in the hell can you confuse a secondary origin having no type skipping around this rule?

House rules are perfectly fine and if that's how you rule, that's cool. But if you want to run RAW with default options (IE not allowing your players to choose their origins) then a character will never, let me repeat that: NEVER gain overcharge bonuses from their secondary origin no matter what it is or what it's powersource is.

The specific rule, again is: "You gain a +2 bonus to overcharge rolls on Alpha powers that have the same power source as your primary origin."

It is not confusing in the least. Again, house rules are fine and allowing players to choose as per the side bar is fine as well.

If a player chooses the character's primary origin to be Enhanced Human, then the character gains a +2 bonus to overcharge for Bio, Dark, and Psi Alpha Mutations. The none in the power source for Enhanced Humans is more specific than the above rule when it is being used as a primary origin in this case the rule, for Enhanced Human as primary would be:

"You gain a +2 bonus to all overcharge rolls on Alpha powers, regardless of power source, if your primary origin is Enhanced Human. Otherwise, you gain a +2 bonus to overcharge rolls on Alpha powers that have the same power source as your primary origin."




And Engineered Human, an origin that per the default rules can only be a secondary, and moreover both specifically has no power source AND still specifically provides a +2 bonus to ALL overcharge rolls is an exception to the rule.  

Should they have put the +2 bonus to all overcharge rolls on a separate line, like the other non-Mutant traits?  Possibly.  But I'm not so certain, since it is so blatantly an exception to the specific rule on pg 34 we all keep quoting over and over again.  Perhaps sloppily written, granted.  But then, this is a game that has the text, "you explode (save ends)." among other fun, multi-interpretable rules text.

Would they print an ability that has no chance whatsoever of being able to be used in any way, shape or form if you are actually following the rules as written (as opposed to following an optional sidebar rule which reads as a description of a common houserule to implement if someone WISHES not to follow the rules as written and the GM agrees, thus its relegation to sidebar status)?  No, I think not.  I think the +2 to all overcharge rolls is quite specifically an exception to rule 34 for the reasons presented previously, and above.  

It is not an override to the secondary origin rule. If it was, it would absolutely state that in the rules.

There is a way to get Engineered Human as your primary: YOU PICK IT. And to do that, you follow the sidebar.

The generic rule is that you gain all the traits from both of your origins.

The specific rule is that you only gain the overcharge bonus from your PRIMARY origin.

Therefore, if you have any origin as your secondary origin, the overcharge bonus DOES NOT APPLY.

Just because the EH has "no power source" does not imply that it overrides the secondary origin rule. Just because the bonuses are written on the same line does not imply that it overrides the secondary origin rule.

On the question of whether or not they'd write an ability/trait that has no chance of being used based on the default rules? Of COURSE! This is WotC, afterall. Editing mistakes galore, products pushed out the door without it being finished, loads of white space where there shouldn't be any (shall I go on).

Unless someone from WotC redacts or changes the ruling that ONLY PRIMARY ORIGINS CONTRIBUTE TO THE OVERCHARGE BONUS then according to the RAW with default rules, Enhanced Humans WILL NEVER BE A PRIMARY ORIGIN. THEREFORE...will not contribute a darn thing to overcharge. Not a single plus, minus, integral, or derivation with respect to anything...well, 0 would be the only thing.

Now, as I've said, if you want to house rule that EH bonuses when an EH is secondary contribute to overcharge bonuses, have at it. But label it a house rule. Understand the RAW first, though. As they are written, there is ZERO confusion IIF you read and understand the rules. I'm not saying anyone is stupid, not at all. When I first read the rules, I missed this rule and was adding up all traits (as per the general rule).

But, as per the RAW: ONLY.PRIMARY.ORIGINS.CONTRIBUTE.TO.OVERCHARGE.BONUSES.

SECONDARY.ORIGINS.DO.NOT.CONTRIBUTE.TO.OVERCHARGE.BONUSES.

IF.AN.ENGINEERED.HUMAN.IS.YOUR.SECONDARY.ORIGIN.DOES.IT.CONTRIBUTE.TO.YOUR.OVERCHARGE.BONUSES?

NO!

IF.AN.ENGINEERED.HUMAN.IS.YOUR.PRIMARY.ORIGIN.DOES.IT.CONTRIBUTE.TO.YOUR.OVERCHARGE.BONUSES?

YES!

IF.YOU.ROLL.FOR.YOUR.ORIGINS.AND.GET.ENGINEERED.HUMAN.AS.YOUR.SECONDARY.ORIGIN.DOES.IT.CONTRIBUTE.TO.YOUR.OVERCHARGE.BONUSES?

NO!

WHY?

BECAUSE.IT.IS.YOUR.SECONDARY.ORIGIN!

Not that difficult to understand, if you ask me.
What do we think about the "What is a Human" sidebar on pg 57.

It states in the first sentence: "Engineered humans rarely show any overt signs of mutation, but that doeasn't mean you can't have a SECOND origin or use alpha mutations."

Later in the sidebar its says: " Your SECOND origin and Alpha Mutations represent some bit of technology... etc"

Seems to imply that EH is meant to be primary to me. 
IIF you choose your primary origin to be Engineered Human, yes it becomes your primary origin (IIF means If and only If).

If you roll your origins as per the default it clearly states: Engineered Human is your SECONDARY origin.

Sure, the guys and gals at WotC who wrote this version of the rules *might* have meant this or that to be the case but *may* have changed their minds or *could have* edited poorly (most likely all of them).

The fact of the matter is this: the "rolling for your origin rules" state that Engineered Human is your secondary origin. Period. END OF DISCUSSION.

The sidebar "What is a Human" does NOT, and I repeat DOES.NOT state that Engineered Human becomes your primary origin in any way, shape or form.

All the sidebar does is give you a way to describe why your seemingly 100% looking human has claws and is shredding off rashers of bacon from a Porker (secondary origin: Felinoid). What does that tell me IN CONTEXT? That Engineered Human was chosen as the primary origin and Felinoid *might* have been chosen or rolled for your secondary origin.

My guess is that the folks who gave us the game allowed you to choose first, then, in their infinite wisdom, thought that it'd be more fun to do it randomly. They didn't properly edit anything after that, which is usually a standard practice for the poor editing practices at WotC.

So, no matter how you try to read into it using any page, sidbar, or what-the-hell-ever you think justifies it as RAW, as long as the Engineered Human origin is listed as your secondary origin, there is no fracking.gods.dang.way it will provide an overcharge bonus. UNLESS you rule it a house rule!

Wrap your heads around that, read it 20-30 times, let it sink in. It is not rocket science. Secondary origins DO NOT provide overcharge bonuses. PERIOD.
HOUSE RULE: Engineered Humans provide overcharge bonus to all alpha mutations.

It amuses me when people so emphatically defend RAW.  Especially when they are aware of the poor editing of WotC products.  Call me an idiot but I tend to err on the side of common sense.

IIF they are primary origins, yes, they do. Secondary? NO. Stop being an idiot.
HOUSE RULE: Engineered Humans provide overcharge bonus to all alpha mutations.

It amuses me when people so emphatically defend RAW.  Especially when they are aware of the poor editing of WotC products.  Call me an idiot but I tend to err on the side of common sense.



Thanks for changing that to house rule after I posted my response. *rolleyes*

Anyway, glad to see that at least one person has declared their decision a house rule so this is hopefully cleared up. Now to unsubscribe from this thread so I don't have to see more rationalizing from the min-maxers.

I was thinking about ignoring the primary origin rule for overcharging so that the overcharge bonus is added for all origins, not just for EH. I'll have to see about that after a few more games.

And, note to self, start hitting the quote button intsead of the reply button, there seems to be people out there who just love to tick others off with stupidity then go back and edit their posts so it looks like the other guy's a nutcase.
One thing that does seem clear is that EH went through multiple revisions.  Bits of it are written like it's a primary origin, some of it even looks like it's intended to be a sole origin, the powers look like they were written for an origin without a specific associated stat.  It all holds together, mechanically, but it really looks like it gave them a lot of trouble. ;)


The specific rule, again is: "You gain a +2 bonus to overcharge rolls on Alpha powers that have the same power source as your primary origin."

And Engineered Human, an origin that per the default rules can only be a secondary, and moreover both specifically has no power source AND still specifically provides a +2 bonus to ALL overcharge rolls is an exception to the rule.

Sure, the EH overcharge bonus overides the "same power source" part of that rule.  It doesn't overide the "primary origin" part.  To get it to do so, you have to assume that an EH can /never/ be primary.  Since two of the three suggested alternate origin generation methods do allow for an EH primary, that assumption would be incorrect.

Would they print an ability that has no chance whatsoever of being able to be used in any way, shape or form if you are actually following the rules as written (as opposed to following an optional sidebar rule which reads as a description of a common houserule to implement if someone WISHES not to follow the rules as written and the GM agrees, thus its relegation to sidebar status)?

Yes, they would put in rules that function only when an 'optional' rule is exercised.  For instance, there are rules for what to do with or without player decks, because buying boosters to build player decks is 'optional.'   It would be foolish to present an 'option' that wouldn't work without furhter house rules, afterall.

For that matter, given the exception-based design philosophy, it would make sense to include rules that would never aply - but /might/ come into play as the result of some other exception...

 

 

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Gonna break this down some.

1. @WiltChamberlin: When discussiong rules we can only discuss the RAW. "But you can house rule", while a true statement, defeats discussion. There are to me possible house rules to discuss them all, so when rules are discussed it has to be by the RAW.

2. If they had not put any text for EH's overcharge, then it would have left a lot of questions for those who pick origins. It is there for people using the chicken rule, or other house rules (like mine for EH becoming primary instead of secondary).

3. For exception based design to take place an entry must outright contradict the other rules. If EH does not say it gives a bonus as a secondary origin, then it does not provide a bonus as a secondary origin, unless you house rule it so.

4. Eh is no more rare than any other secondary origin statistically. You have a 1/20 chance of rolling any given origin, and 1 of those 20 is your primary which becomes EH. You have a 1/20 of getting Eh as your secondary origin. You have a 1/400 chance of any specific Combination with EH, same as any other specific combination of origins.
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The sidebar on Choosing your Origin (p 35) clearly indicates that this method of character creation falls into the realm of GM fiat ("...ask your Game Master if you can pick origins.") which makes it, by nature of being DM fiat/Rule 0, houseruled.

It's not RAW, it is an invitiation to house-rule, if you are unhappy with the character creation options in front of you, and your GM agrees.

 So, it follows that as the only method to get EH as your primary origin is through GM fiat/Rule 0/House-rule, you cannot, by RAW, get EH as primary.

How EH interacts with your primary origin is a seperate topic.
The sidebar on Choosing your Origin (p 35) clearly indicates that this method of character creation falls into the realm of GM fiat ("...ask your Game Master if you can pick origins.") which makes it, by nature of being DM fiat/Rule 0, houseruled.

It's not RAW, it is an invitiation to house-rule, if you are unhappy with the character creation options in front of you, and your GM agrees.

 So, it follows that as the only method to get EH as your primary origin is through GM fiat/Rule 0/House-rule, you cannot, by RAW, get EH as primary.

How EH interacts with your primary origin is a seperate topic.



Precisely.  The sidebar "chicken rule" is the optional rule, it is not a core rule.  The entirety of the rules text save the "chicken rule" sidebar appears to be written under the assumption that you'll be using the RAW, randomly-generated characters.

My reading of RAW is that a a primary X and secondary Engineered Human is getting the +2 to overcharge from page 34 for Origin X and the +2 to all overcharges from Engineered Human.  Because page 34 is talking about power sources it has nothing to do with Engineered Humans because they don't have a power source.

If you choose Engineered Human as your primary with the optional chicken rules, you don't get the p34 bonus as you have no power source.  Instead, you'd get the +2 to all from Engineered Human and nothing from your secondary. 

I believe that the origins that have power sources have the line about +2 as a reminder of page 34.  Engineered Human on the other hand, can't have a +2 there as a reminder about page 34 because the Engineered Human doesn't get a power source and thus doesn't use that rule.  They have their own special rule that gives +2 to all overcharges.  As they have no power source, unlike the other origins, the +2 line can't simply be a duplicated reminder like it is for the others. 

One thing I think Tony is correct about is that this is the result of the Engineered Human going through a changing development process.  Until I see an errata saying otherwise, a rolled origin character who is in engineered human is going to have a +4 to the power source of their primary (+2 from p34/reminder text and +2 from engineered human) and +2 to the other power sources (+2 from engineered human trait).
I think what I'll be doing for games I run is make it that when you roll both origins the same, your *primary* origin becomes EH, and your secondary is what you rolled. It results in a one word change to the RAW (arguably one word that could easily have been mistyped/edited) and makes everything make a lot more sense to me.
My reading of RAW is that a a primary X and secondary Engineered Human is getting the +2 to overcharge from page 34 for Origin X and the +2 to all overcharges from Engineered Human.  Because page 34 is talking about power sources it has nothing to do with Engineered Humans because they don't have a power source.

If you choose Engineered Human as your primary with the optional chicken rules, you don't get the p34 bonus as you have no power source.  Instead, you'd get the +2 to all from Engineered Human and nothing from your secondary. 

I believe that the origins that have power sources have the line about +2 as a reminder of page 34.  Engineered Human on the other hand, can't have a +2 there as a reminder about page 34 because the Engineered Human doesn't get a power source and thus doesn't use that rule.  They have their own special rule that gives +2 to all overcharges.  As they have no power source, unlike the other origins, the +2 line can't simply be a duplicated reminder like it is for the others. 

One thing I think Tony is correct about is that this is the result of the Engineered Human going through a changing development process.  Until I see an errata saying otherwise, a rolled origin character who is in engineered human is going to have a +4 to the power source of their primary (+2 from p34/reminder text and +2 from engineered human) and +2 to the other power sources (+2 from engineered human trait).


Awesome house rule, but not RAW. Any secondary origin, no matter what it is, no matter if it has power sources or not does not contribute to overcharge bonus. Period. End of story. In plain English.

Both interpretations are fine for house rules, but incorrectly interpreted for RAW.

The general rule: You gain the traits of both of your origins.
The specific rule (which overrides the general rule): You gain the overcharge bonus of your primary origin.

In no way, shape, or form does a secondary origin grant overcharge bonuses. Having no power source does not qualify a secondary origin as a primary origin, therefore that logic is fundamentally flawed when basing your interpretation as RAW.

Why can't you guys just accept this one, very simple, rule which is written twice in the book and why do you continuously rationalize it? It's not confusing in the least.

There are a variety of alternatives presented in the rules, some are in sidebars, some aren't.  Alternate origin generation happens to be in a sidebar, how to use player decks happens to be in main text.  Both are rules, though, both cover cases that may or may not come up depending on player and DM choice.  A DM may or may not allow players their own decks - if he doesn't the rules smoothly cover it.  A DM may or may not let players chose EH as a primary origin - if he does, the rules smoothly cover it.

It's not because the rules are carefully cross-referenced.  In exception-based design, designers can work piecemeal.  One guy writes how to build a character, another stats up EHs.  (I get the feeling the EH passed through several hands under several different paradigms.)  They'll work the way they work, from general to specific.  If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, it takes precedence.  If a specific rule doesn't come up under the existing general rules, though, it doesn't 'make a place for itself,' it doesn't require you to re-write the general rules, it just sits there, orphaned & irrelevant, until it does come up.

 

 

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Precisely.  The sidebar "chicken rule" is the optional rule, it is not a core rule.  The entirety of the rules text save the "chicken rule" sidebar appears to be written under the assumption that you'll be using the RAW, randomly-generated characters.


Optional rules are, as you say, RULES. Being an option does not make them any less rules, and does not exempt them from RAW.

Here's a perfect example. Page 71 starting gear.
It says you get a melee weapon, ranged weapon, armor and explorers kit.

Rolling on the starting equipment table is an OPTION. I doubt you would say that it is not a core rule. Regardless, it is presented as an OPTION.

As the second, alternative option no less. Your GM is justified in saying you don't roll. RAW supports that. It's an option, not a core rule, by your logic.

Also, the sidebar cannot be written "under the assumption you're using random characters". It is an optional rule that you use BEFORE you roll anything. It's presented as an alternative.
Look at what it says exactly.
"We think rolling is more fun. If you don't like that, you can do this instead."

That does not say "we assume you're rolling".
What if D&D said "We think fighters are more fun. If you don't like being a fighter, you can try these other classes." Does that make clerics and wizards into "house rules"? Of course not.

Here's what this boils down to.

YOU don't like the RAW. So you're trying to twist the interpretation of the rules so that you can have your house rule, but also satisfy your ego in saying "I'm not using houserules."

You're a powergamer munchkin - this perfectly matches the munchkin motto: "Whatever gives the most plusses!"
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Precisely.  The sidebar "chicken rule" is the optional rule, it is not a core rule.  The entirety of the rules text save the "chicken rule" sidebar appears to be written under the assumption that you'll be using the RAW, randomly-generated characters.


Optional rules are, as you say, RULES. Being an option does not make them any less rules, and does not exempt them from RAW.

Here's a perfect example. Page 71 starting gear.
It says you get a melee weapon, ranged weapon, armor and explorers kit.

Rolling on the starting equipment table is an OPTION. I doubt you would say that it is not a core rule. Regardless, it is presented as an OPTION.

As the second, alternative option no less. Your GM is justified in saying you don't roll. RAW supports that. It's an option, not a core rule, by your logic.

Also, the sidebar cannot be written "under the assumption you're using random characters". It is an optional rule that you use BEFORE you roll anything. It's presented as an alternative.
Look at what it says exactly.
"We think rolling is more fun. If you don't like that, you can do this instead."

That does not say "we assume you're rolling".
What if D&D said "We think fighters are more fun. If you don't like being a fighter, you can try these other classes." Does that make clerics and wizards into "house rules"? Of course not.

Here's what this boils down to.

YOU don't like the RAW. So you're trying to twist the interpretation of the rules so that you can have your house rule, but also satisfy your ego in saying "I'm not using houserules."

You're a powergamer munchkin - this perfectly matches the munchkin motto: "Whatever gives the most plusses!"

RAW doesn't present rules for picking an origin, it merely states that one shoukd ask ones GM. Please feel free to quote page numbers and text if actual rules for choosing origins are explicitly defined as I have missed them.

Please note, munchkin, and to some extent, power-gamer and min-maxer, are loaded terms on D&D messageboards. It is rude and unfair to accuse another poster of these behaviors over a RAW v. RAI dispute.

Further, in this debate, it is illogical, as powergamers tend to abhor randomness. The default rule of rolling both origins promotes randomness, which discourages powergaming (how do you maximize gains when all outcomes are equally probable?)

I can only assume that you are not familiar with earlier edititions, and are thus not familiar with Rule 0 caveats in your rule books.
RAW doesn't present rules for picking an origin, it merely states that one shoukd ask ones GM.



WRONG. Page 35 Under the same dang sidebar people are talking about.
"If thats too random for you, try it this way: Roll one origin, and then choose another that you think compliments it. (Or choose one first and then roll the second)."


Sounds like an optional rule to me.

That right there shows a way to get Engineered Human for your first origin.

Awesome house rule, but not RAW. Any secondary origin, no matter what it is, no matter if it has power sources or not does not contribute to overcharge bonus. Period. End of story. In plain English.



Except the text doesn't ever actually say that.  There's no "only primary", there's no "not secondary."  There's just a line that tells you that you gain a +2 bonus to overcharge rolls on alpha mutation of the same power source as your primary.  This idea that a secondary origin can *never* contribute to overcharging is your insertion/extrapolation.  That rule is simply not in the rulebook text.


In no way, shape, or form does a secondary origin grant overcharge bonuses.



A reasonable extrapolation, but not what the text actually says.

Having no power source does not qualify a secondary origin as a primary origin, therefore that logic is fundamentally flawed when basing your interpretation as RAW.



In order for you to be correct as the rules are writtn written, there would have to be the word "only" after "You" in the second line of the traits entry on page 34.  The word is not there.  It's really nice that you gain a +2 from for over charging mutations that have the same power source as your primary, but Engineered Humans have no primary.  If it said "you only gain" I'd agree.  But it doesn't.

You're making a fantastic RAI argument, and an errata may bear you out, but as it's written, there's is nothing excluding the bonus granted by the traits of Engineered Humans as the 2nd line is about origins with power sources.

Why can't you guys just accept this one, very simple, rule which is written twice in the book and why do you continuously rationalize it? It's not confusing in the least.



Why do you insert the imaginary world "only" into the text?  Even the Overcharging text on p66 is all "might get a bonus."  Here was another chance to address the exceptional case of Engineered Humans and the authors didn't take the opportunity.  The text simply does not contain your made up "secondaries never contribute an overcharge bonus" rule.

In order for what you're saying to be the case, the rules text needs a line that explicitly says secondaries do not ever grant a bonus to overcharging AND on top of that, it would need to specifically mention Engineered Humans as they are a special case which trumps a general rule (as the general rule is explicitly about Power Source anyway).

As it stands, all there is in the actual text is a line that grants a bonus based on power source.  An exceptional origin that doesn't have a power source would have it's own rules about overcharging-- and lo and behold it does.

I think I buy that your take is RAI, but without actual rules text excluding the Engineered Human, it's not RAW either.  

As Tony pointed out, it's highly likely that multiple people worked on different parts of the project and different parts were revised at different times.  I definitely think that are some artifacts of that process present in this matter.
Then we'll settle it this way: Until some WotC flunky starts answering these questions, all clarifications are house rules and can be ignored no matter how logical they may be. I'm scrubbing myself of helping people in this forum with rules questions since it's just irritating the crap out of me.

Enjoy the game, it's yours, rule it as you see fit.
RAW doesn't present rules for picking an origin, it merely states that one shoukd ask ones GM. Please feel free to quote page numbers and text if actual rules for choosing origins are explicitly defined as I have missed them.


Page 35
- - -
Rolling or Choosign Origins?
We thinkg the game is the most fun when you roll your two origins randomly and live with the results. If that's too random for you, try it this way: Roll one origin, and then choose another origin you think complements it (or choose one first and then roll the second.) If you really want to play something specific, ask your game master if you can pick your origins. But you're a big chicken.
- - -
So it says "Roll both. Or roll one and pick the other. OR, if you want something specific, ask your GM to pick your origins."
Note the last part says origins, plural. Asking the GM is only mentioned in regards to choosing both origins.

not familiar with Rule 0 caveats in your rule books.


Rule Zero has no place in a debate on RAW. In game, R0 matters. When it comes to the rules printed on the paper (which this is a discussion of), nothing can change what's written.
AlexandraErin: If last season was any indication, I think Encounters is pretty much the elemental opposite of "organized" play!
You're making a fantastic RAI argument, and an errata may bear you out, but as it's written, there's is nothing excluding the bonus granted by the traits of Engineered Humans as the 2nd line is about origins with power sources.


OK, so why doesn't my secondary Android origin give me +2 on overcharge?

It is written the EXACT same way as EH's bonus. EXACT same words, except it uses the word Dark instead of Any.

Note that this is your exact argument.
Nothing in the book says my secondary origin does NOT give an overcharge bonus.
And if the wording of EH allows a bonus as a secondary, then so does Android... and every other origin.

The "nothing excluding EH" is also not excluding any other origin... because there's nothing!

There is nothing in the wording that says EH grant a bonus as a secondary. You can do all the semantic gymnastics you want in regards to the words used ("none" and "any") but the fact remains, there is NOTHING that actually says "You get this benefit, contrary to what was said before."

You say nothing forbids the bonus. I say nothing grants the bonus.

This is a game with rules. Under those rules, nothing is allowed unless explicitly permitted.
Nothing in the rules forbids me from saying "I have a working time machine for armor and a primed nuke for a shield."
Nothing in the rules ALLOWS this, so I can't take it.
AlexandraErin: If last season was any indication, I think Encounters is pretty much the elemental opposite of "organized" play!

Except the text doesn't ever actually say that.  There's no "only primary", there's no "not secondary."  There's just a line that tells you that you gain a +2 bonus to overcharge rolls on alpha mutation of the same power source as your primary.  This idea that a secondary origin can *never* contribute to overcharging is your insertion/extrapolation.  That rule is simply not in the rulebook text.



Really? You DO realize what your saying here, right? While this is, in fact, probably a valid interpretation of the rules, its also leads to the conclusion that an Empath Mind-Breaker has a Psi Overcharge of +6, or that a Felinoid Cockroach has a Bio Overcharge of +6. Or that a Cockroach Engineered Human has an Overcharge of +6 Bio, +2 Dark, and +2 Psi.

You are claiming that the following lines have no relation to each other, and therefore are ALL applied:

1. Page 34. "You gain a +2 bonus to overcharge rolls on Alpha Powers that have the same power source as your primary origin." Ok, so I'm a Felinoid Cockroach. That means my primary origin is Bio, so I gain a +2 to Bio Overcharge.

2. Page 31 "[You gain] all the Level 1 traits of both your primary and secondary origins." Ok, so I get a +2 to Bio from Felinoid. . . thats listed under traits. Oh, and I get a +2 from Cockroach too, since thats listed under traits as well.

Oh look, thats a +6 to Bio Overcharge! Sweet!

Either the above is the conclusion you are looking for, or the two rules are in fact, part of the same package deal and overlap each other. Which makes one specific (#1), and the other general (#2). And we know what that means.

Not to mention that nobody has brought up the fact that #1 is in fact an part of the definition of the TRAITS section. Which implies that even though its listed under traits, overcharge is only gain on a primary. Sheesh people.

General: "You gain all the traits of both origins"
Specific: "Traits: You only get the overcharge part from your primary"

Not hard to understand.
This idea that a secondary origin can *never* contribute to overcharging is your insertion/extrapolation.

Even if there were such a rule, an origin could exist that was an exception to it.  It would say something like "you gain a ______ bonus to ______ overcharge, even if this is your secondary origin" or, perhaps, spell out different bonuses for primary vs secondary.  A word or two about stacking or not wouldn't be a bad idea in the case of such an exception, either.

The idea that a secondary origin can 'never' contribute to overcharging is just based on the fact that primary origins do, and no secondary origin does - yet. 

It's rather like the idea that EH is 'always' secondary.  Except, of course, that EH can be primary.  :shrug:

As it stands, all there is in the actual text is a line that grants a bonus based on power source.

Based on the power source of the primary origin, yes. 
An exceptional origin that doesn't have a power source would have it's own rules about overcharging-- and lo and behold it does.

Sure, and it works fine, when EH is your primary.  EH is a clear exception to the bonus being to a specific power source, it's not a clear exception to it being based on your primary origin.

Specific: "You gain all the traits of both origins"
General: "Traits: You only get the overcharge part from your primary"

I think you got your general and specific turned around.  General: You gain all the traits of both origins.  Specific: you get a bonus to overcharge based on the 'Mutant Type' Trait of your Primary origin.

 

 

 

Oops, looks like this request tried to create an infinite loop. We do not allow such things here. We are a professional website!

I think you got your general and specific turned around. 



D'oh, you are correct. That was indeed a typo :P Fixed now.
What can I say other than "Bad editing is bad editing"?

I believe that the most likely RAI is that you only ever get +2 to overcharge rolls.  This +2 is to one power source only (the one that matches your primary origin) or +2 to all three power sources if your primary is somehow Engineered Human (picked via GM permission).

Hopefully errata will make RAI align with RAW because right now, it's all messed up.

And it's not like WotC doesn't have experience dealing with stacking bonuses.  They know how to make it clear that certain bonuses stack and certain ones don't.  They could have made it all an "origin" type bonus that doesn't stack.  They could have put the text in the origin descriptions about overcharging somewhere other than in the block called traits which everyone gets.  They could have had the line "if this origin is your primary origin, you get.."  They could have put the word "only" in that one line on page 34.  They could have explicitly said that you *never* get an overcharge bonus from a secondary.  They could have had a single line in the Enhanced Human section about overcharging and the lack of power source.  They could have cleaned up how one part of the book says that EH is always secondary but the text in the actual entry assumes it's primary.

But they didn't do any of those things.


FYI, and yes I know we can take it with a grain of salt until official word in the FAQ, I asked customer service about the Engineered Human and its overcharge bonus.  Until I receive official word, I will be going by their word over the word of this community.

According to CS, an Engineered Human does indeed always get its +2 bonus to all overcharge rolls, regardless of source (not stacking with the normal bonus).
CS comes through again.  Tongue out

 

 

Oops, looks like this request tried to create an infinite loop. We do not allow such things here. We are a professional website!

FYI, and yes I know we can take it with a grain of salt until official word in the FAQ, I asked customer service about the Engineered Human and its overcharge bonus.  Until I receive official word, I will be going by their word over the word of this community.

According to CS, an Engineered Human does indeed always get its +2 bonus to all overcharge rolls, regardless of source (not stacking with the normal bonus).


Did you ask if the E.H. grants the bonus while it was the secondary origin or did you just ask "Do you get the +2 to all from E.H.?"

Just curious, not trying to start anything. Because that's a big difference between the two questions and contexts.
I asked customer service about the Engineered Human and its overcharge bonus.



Umm, yeah, asking customer service questions can be tricky, because you have to be really specific.

If you asked them specifically about the bonus when they are a secondary origin, then that's interesting.
If you just asked them generally about the bonus, the answer is vague.

Which one was it?
Anyone else think it's awesome that we have RAI, RAW, CSAW and CSAI? Cool
Anyone else think it's awesome that we have RAI, RAW, CSAW and CSAI? Cool



Can't really disagree with that >.>
I asked customer service about the Engineered Human and its overcharge bonus.



Umm, yeah, asking customer service questions can be tricky, because you have to be really specific.

If you asked them specifically about the bonus when they are a secondary origin, then that's interesting.
If you just asked them generally about the bonus, the answer is vague.

Which one was it?



I asked how the +2 overcharge bonus for EH works, since EH both has no origin and is virtually always a secondary origin, and specifically referred to the passage on pg 34.

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