September/October update situation

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I know alot of people felt in the dark about that, and something on the main page, such as "CB taking longer than though, will update early october" would have been right awesome!  I don't understand the need to hide such a message in only personalized e-mails and forums.



I suspect WOTC doesn't want people to know they are having difficulties, if they keep it quiet less people will be bothered by it.

Madbunny - Apologies I know this thread isn't meant for discussion. Keep up the good work! Smile

Daniel.

 
Mudbunny,

I have another question for you to add to the list.

Can we assume that since the normal October update date of the first Tuesday has been missed that we will get the update whenever it is ready, as opposed to waiting until the other favorite date for delayed updates, the third Tuesday of the month?

Regards,

Kalex the Omen 

Kalex the Omen 
Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire

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HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

I knew it. I cancelled my account last month and now have gathered many more people to "Strike" with me. We need to send Wizards a message. Do they want our money or not? If so, they should give us what we all signed up for. Not just part of it. ALL OF IT!

I am also not going to buy ANY Wizards' products. Books, minis, nothing until they fix this and make DDI something worth paying for again. If we let them, they will keep offering a lesser and lesser product each month (like they have been). I say enough. We are all willing to keep giving them money every month. What kind of company is dumb enough to mess that up?



Im not sure if you understand the situation or how the structure of companys in general work especially the larger corporations. First D&DI is more than likely a completely different part of the D&D team than the people who make the books themselves. The people who develop D&D insider more than likley have little nothing to do with the development of the game itself and only work on the programs of D&D insider in regards to inputing this information and making that work. So if you feel the errata or story content, classes, races or anything else within the books quality is going down then sure i can understand why you might stop buying D&D products in general.

The issue at hand is the people who work on D&DI have dropped the ball in regards to putting the content from the paper books onto there digital program and the creators of the book content probably arent anymore pleased than we are that theres a delay. As well i have no doubt the higher ups of wizards even going upto Hasbro itself arent pleased at the delay either and i have no doubt managers, supervisors and staff of D&DI are feeling the pressure from all sides and the more money lost due to this delay is most certainly going to cost a few jobs if it gets bad enough.

But the point is just because one thing about D&D and in all honesty its probably one of the most insignificant parts of D&D for most people is screwed up doesnt mean the whole thing is. Nobody has stopped playing just because one minor books content sucked. The reason i say D&DI is insignificant to most is in the end we dont actually need it to play the game. There is no content in either the adventure tools or the character builder that is unique or exclusive, the only reason we use it is because its convenient and cheaper than buying the books themselves for those who dont buy the books ontop of D&DI. But to be honest if your mad because D&DI is late doing there update because you refuse to even buy the books so now you dont have access to the new content i really dont feel any pitty for you infact im glad theres a delay solely because of that. Only reason im upset about D&DI being delayed is because ive paid for its service and im not getting what i paid for, I enjoy D&DI because its saves me time and i love saving time and im always willing to spend money on anything that saves me time. Until the virtual board and character designer comes out if ever and works the way i hope it would D&DI will always be a tool i can ultimately live without.

In the end if everyone who is upset with D&DI extends that to all of D&D all youll be doing is reducing the quality and amount of content produced for D&D because the less people who pay for it the less people who are paid to make it the less that will be produced so in the end it would be pretty self defeating to punish the whole due to a single rather insignificant part.
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

I knew it. I cancelled my account last month and now have gathered many more people to "Strike" with me. We need to send Wizards a message. Do they want our money or not? If so, they should give us what we all signed up for. Not just part of it. ALL OF IT!

I am also not going to buy ANY Wizards' products. Books, minis, nothing until they fix this and make DDI something worth paying for again. If we let them, they will keep offering a lesser and lesser product each month (like they have been). I say enough. We are all willing to keep giving them money every month. What kind of company is dumb enough to mess that up?



Im not sure if you understand the situation or how the structure of companys in general work especially the larger corporations. First D&DI is more than likely a completely different part of the D&D team than the people who make the books themselves. The people who develop D&D insider more than likley have little nothing to do with the development of the game itself and only work on the programs of D&D insider in regards to inputing this information and making that work. So if you feel the errata or story content, classes, races or anything else within the books quality is going down then sure i can understand why you might stop buying D&D products in general.

The issue at hand is the people who work on D&DI have dropped the ball in regards to putting the content from the paper books onto there digital program and the creators of the book content probably arent anymore pleased than we are that theres a delay. As well i have no doubt the higher ups of wizards even going upto Hasbro itself arent pleased at the delay either and i have no doubt managers, supervisors and staff of D&DI are feeling the pressure from all sides and the more money lost due to this delay is most certainly going to cost a few jobs if it gets bad enough.

But the point is just because one thing about D&D and in all honesty its probably one of the most insignificant parts of D&D for most people is screwed up doesnt mean the whole thing is. Nobody has stopped playing just because one minor books content sucked. The reason i say D&DI is insignificant to most is in the end we dont actually need it to play the game. There is no content in either the adventure tools or the character builder that is unique or exclusive, the only reason we use it is because its convenient and cheaper than buying the books themselves for those who dont buy the books ontop of D&DI. But to be honest if your mad because D&DI is late doing there update because you refuse to even buy the books so now you dont have access to the new content i really dont feel any pitty for you infact im glad theres a delay solely because of that. Only reason im upset about D&DI being delayed is because ive paid for its service and im not getting what i paid for, I enjoy D&DI because its saves me time and i love saving time and im always willing to spend money on anything that saves me time. Until the virtual board and character designer comes out if ever and works the way i hope it would D&DI will always be a tool i can ultimately live without.

In the end if everyone who is upset with D&DI extends that to all of D&D all youll be doing is reducing the quality and amount of content produced for D&D because the less people who pay for it the less people who are paid to make it the less that will be produced so in the end it would be pretty self defeating to punish the whole due to a single rather insignificant part.



Wotc at this point has ATLEAST twice dropped the ball on the estimated release date, last 2 months. When they claim to update monthly, they do not even say it until after the initial release if they cant release it for what ever reason.
My nerdrage is because of the shear unknown we are in when Wotc cant deliver, it would be comforting to know what went wrong.

For example, and I keep this DnD related: I ordered Dark sun both the creature catalog and the campaign guide when they where released and because my LGS didn't have them yet. When I went back the next week the only had the creature catalog I was happy, but ofcourse I asked where the guide was. He said "probably late"(in dutch and summarized).
The next week it still wasn't delivered so he said he shall mail the distributer and ask what happened. So he emailed them (I was standing in front of him so I know). After another week it still wasnt there they mailed back (I was told) that they shall figure it out. The next week I came and the owner said he shall look in the reseaved and ordered lists in both they where triple (he told he ordered that he ordered on for the store, one for me and one for himself). So he mailed agian to point that out. The next week he again got mailed that they should figure it out.
After that week I finally got the book.
After that I was happy to get the guide. But every week I was disappointed but oke with it because I knew what was going on. I would be at least annoyed after 2 weeks if the owner only told me "not in yet", this is what Wotc is currently doing.

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I understand the frustration and actually just finished posting about my own frustration over the lack of communication over the update. The main point i was trying to make wasnt that people shouldnt be upset or frustrated about the delay or the lack of communication about the D&DI update but that getting mad at everything D&D related is doing nothing but blaming people who have little to nothing to do with D&DI for whats happening with D&DI. The authors of the D&D books arent to blame for this delay they released there product and are already working on there next projects and everyone has access to these products. The understanding is i get why people are canceling there subscriptions but also saying they are going to discontinue buying all D&D related products from wizards because D&D insider is delayed doesnt tell wizards to improve D&D insider and fix whats wrong its actually telling them that D&D insider is a bad thing to continue because delays in programming is going to happen and if every delay costs them not only D&DI subscribers but drops there book, miniature and other associated sales then there not going to want to continue with it at all since some delays cant be prevented. Im sure already D&DI has dropped there book sales but at the same time has probably been balanced out by an increase of people who couldnt afford the books but can afford D&DI. If at any point D&DI subscribers income dips below what they were making on the books before D&DI then obviously they will stop the D&DI project and go back to just doing books and if those numbers drop too low they will just drop D&D altogether. So if everyone who drops there D&DI subscription were to also stop buying the books and miniatures if they actually are right now then eventually either D&DI will stop being supported or the books will stop being printed or the miniatures will stop being made and ultimately D&D altogether will die all because of a program designed to add convenience not something that actually has anything new or exclusive content wise to offer.

In regards to you not getting your books it all comes down to the distributor who more than likely buys there product from wizards and is not more than likely a private company didnt order enough product and chose not to send your store its shipment because your store isnt an important enough customer to prioritize over another store so you getting your book late more than likely had nothing to do with wizards at all and blaming wizards for it is just silly. I had ordered the Dragon Age box set through my local store and it took me almost 6 months to get it. True the company that made the product didnt make enough but in the end the distributor chose not to send the store i ordered it through any of the box sets because he only ordered 2 of them so someone who ordered more than 2 got priority even if they put there order in after the owner of the store i goto especially if they order more regularly.

It all comes down to simple economics your only as important as the money your spending. More money you spend the more of a priority you are. The proof is easy walk into a store especially one that does commision sales goto a sales person who is talking to someone who looks to be buying something cheap make a comment on how your looking to buy something really expensive within earshot of the sales person and he will drop the person hes talking to VERY fast nomatter how close to a sale he is solely so you dont get scooped up by anyone else.

MB, thank you for your efforts in contacting WotC for answers for us.  Here's my question:

In light of the announcement that Dark Sun and HotFL aren't making it into the October 12th update, what are the plans for those books?  Are they now scheduled for November, or is there any chance they might be finished before that.

I'm trying to get started in a play-by-post Dark Sun game, and no CB *really* cripples us as much as we use online tools like iplay4e.com
Questions I am working on getting answers for:

  1. Date of October update.

  2. (etc)

Perhaps you should update this with answers for the questions we've got.

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A question I have is related to what Trevor posted:

"We are currently in the process of developing a new web-based tools system for D&D Insider which has factored into recent content update delays."

Is this web-based system to replace the standalone CB software?  I'd hate to be required to have internet access whenever I'd need/want to load my character up to update equipment/levels/etc.

In regards to you not getting your books it all comes down to the distributor who more than likely buys there product from wizards and is not more than likely a private company didnt order enough product and chose not to send your store its shipment because your store isnt an important enough customer to prioritize over another store so you getting your book late more than likely had nothing to do with wizards at all and blaming wizards for it is just silly. I had ordered the Dragon Age box set through my local store and it took me almost 6 months to get it. True the company that made the product didnt make enough but in the end the distributor chose not to send the store i ordered it through any of the box sets because he only ordered 2 of them so someone who ordered more than 2 got priority even if they put there order in after the owner of the store i goto especially if they order more regularly.

It all comes down to simple economics your only as important as the money your spending. More money you spend the more of a priority you are. The proof is easy walk into a store especially one that does commision sales goto a sales person who is talking to someone who looks to be buying something cheap make a comment on how your looking to buy something really expensive within earshot of the sales person and he will drop the person hes talking to VERY fast nomatter how close to a sale he is solely so you dont get scooped up by anyone else.



I think this is aimed at me so I respond to that in my situation.


I have no problem what soever regarding the late product and I dont blame Wotc (I was an example that was the most resent and as I only preorder for my DnD need I was the only example possible that really happened). With some stores (especially those big department stores, being less personal and what not) I would get mad, with this not because of to things.


 


1. Personal contact, the store owner has conversations with everyone sometimes slowing down the register but as it is a gaming store almost everyone there can take part int the conversation. This is what Wotc (I think, as I'm not that active on the forum) is missing, just adding oneself in the conversation once in a while may close the gap between the company and community smaller.


2. Reasons why a service cant be completed in the said time, when asked. Like in the example the owner said and showed what went wrong, problems are understandable. But like Wotc when you dont get information on why there is a problem, it attracts both curiosity and a feeling that some people aren't working (or at least is slacking off) to complete there part of a said deal. And because some people look out for the updates its understandable that they get annoyed when the only info they get is "you get it later".


 


But as I saw the recent post of Trevor I think point 2 is a thing gone, if they can keep it.



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Another question -- What will be in the next update?  I have been seeing rumors that it will include Dark Sun and Heroes of the Fallen Lands but skip Psionic Power.  If any material is being skipped, what is the schedule for catching up?




Okay -- it looks like we have the answer to my first question, and that the rumors were 180 degrees off from what is really happening.  So -- Will Dark Sun and/or Heroes of the Fallen Lands make the November update?


In regards to you not getting your books it all comes down to the distributor who more than likely buys there product from wizards and is not more than likely a private company didnt order enough product and chose not to send your store its shipment because your store isnt an important enough customer to prioritize over another store so you getting your book late more than likely had nothing to do with wizards at all and blaming wizards for it is just silly. I had ordered the Dragon Age box set through my local store and it took me almost 6 months to get it. True the company that made the product didnt make enough but in the end the distributor chose not to send the store i ordered it through any of the box sets because he only ordered 2 of them so someone who ordered more than 2 got priority even if they put there order in after the owner of the store i goto especially if they order more regularly.

It all comes down to simple economics your only as important as the money your spending. More money you spend the more of a priority you are. The proof is easy walk into a store especially one that does commision sales goto a sales person who is talking to someone who looks to be buying something cheap make a comment on how your looking to buy something really expensive within earshot of the sales person and he will drop the person hes talking to VERY fast nomatter how close to a sale he is solely so you dont get scooped up by anyone else.



I think this is aimed at me so I respond to that in my situation.


I have no problem what soever regarding the late product and I dont blame Wotc (I was an example that was the most resent and as I only preorder for my DnD need I was the only example possible that really happened). With some stores (especially those big department stores, being less personal and what not) I would get mad, with this not because of to things.


 


1. Personal contact, the store owner has conversations with everyone sometimes slowing down the register but as it is a gaming store almost everyone there can take part int the conversation. This is what Wotc (I think, as I'm not that active on the forum) is missing, just adding oneself in the conversation once in a while may close the gap between the company and community smaller.


2. Reasons why a service cant be completed in the said time, when asked. Like in the example the owner said and showed what went wrong, problems are understandable. But like Wotc when you dont get information on why there is a problem, it attracts both curiosity and a feeling that some people aren't working (or at least is slacking off) to complete there part of a said deal. And because some people look out for the updates its understandable that they get annoyed when the only info they get is "you get it later".


 


But as I saw the recent post of Trevor I think point 2 is a thing gone, if they can keep it.






I appologize if i misunderstood your reference as a bash towards WotC for something that wasnt directly there fault. But i think i do understand what your getting at now and i agree my situtation with Dragon age was the same as yours and i must admit i would have been far more upset if the owner ignored me whenever i asked for an update to the point i probably would have just ordered it elsewhere and left him hanging with the extra product.
Here's a new question for MB to ask the company (as if he'll get an aswere).

Since DS content will NOT be in the upcoming update; when, if ever, will we see it?  Next month?  Next Year?  Next Edition?

I appologize if i misunderstood your reference as a bash towards WotC for something that wasnt directly there fault. But i think i do understand what your getting at now and i agree my situtation with Dragon age was the same as yours and i must admit i would have been far more upset if the owner ignored me whenever i asked for an update to the point i probably would have just ordered it elsewhere and left him hanging with the extra product.




Yea, but as Wotc has currently a monopoly on this its hard to go somewhere els, unless there is a group who makes a CB and update it for free or a small commission (which in turn would make Wotc lose money but probably get faster updates as that groups focus will be the CB, and not books, other tools, play-testing, etc.
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Given the update news, such as it is, I have a couple of new questions that I'd like to be added to the top of this thread:

What are the new web-based tools and when are they likely to be available?

Will this include moving the Character Builder to a web-based format?

When will we get the CB update that includes the Dark Sun and Essentials products that I have already bought?

Whilst I applaud the fact that we have finally got some communication on the update, I am very annoyed that it includes no Dark Sun or Essentials. As I've posted elsewhere, I use the CB exclusively for character generation and so without the updates, I might as well have not bought the books. If this is a pattern that will continue into the future then I may well stop buying the books altogether.

Also, if the CB moves to a web-based format then I will seriously consider seeking a refund for the remainder of my 12 month subscription. This is not what I paid my money for and whilst I understand that this will stop people subscribing for a month just to get updates, I have never done that - nor am I judging one way or the other those that do. I guarantee that regardless of whether I can get a refund for the remainder of my subscription, I will not renew if the CB and MB move to a web-based format. My free time is precious to me and I have no desire to spend it waiting for server crashes to be rectified.
I'm not ready to make any sort of commitment one way or the other on the web-based tools.  I want to see them, know more about them, and how they will work before I pass judgement.  If they do replace the CB, then I will probably adjust to a 3-month subscription to get a feel for them, and decide from there.  I will give them 3 months, which is about how long it took blizzard to deal with their server problems for WoW when it first came out.  That seems reasonable.  Ideally, some sort of demo version will be available, like there is for the CB now.
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If they change the CB for a web based application, I'll cry myself to sleep and hit the kill button on my subscription and stick with 3.5 games + pathfinder. That would be about it since the CB is what keeps me playing 4E.

Viva Chile mierrrr...!!!

they better not kill the CB for online tools. I don't have the money to pay for a subscription to content I'm not going to use. thats why I subscribe for a month to get an update that I'm going to use. If I have to keep subscribed to use content I've already payed for, no thanks.

If this is the way they go, WotC will lose my couple of months per year subscription, not gain a new full year subscription.
If they change the CB for a web based application, I'll cry myself to sleep and hit the kill button on my subscription and stick with 3.5 games + pathfinder. That would be about it since the CB is what keeps me playing 4E.



I feel the same way.
If that happens, both my wife and Guest232734764  will certainly cancel thier subscriptions, and I might not buy any new books from WotC either, but I'll still play the game (if I can get anyone else in the group to do so, that is) since I still think that 4E is more elegantly built than 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder.

EDIT: blasted cut-and-paste, screws with the formatting!!!!

EDIT 2: At least I'll be able to rebuild my 3.5 namesake accurately (Harrier build, since he Prestiged into Elocator back in 3.5) with the new update.

Hopefully the Dark Sun material will be in the next update after that (and that WotC has enough sense to leave the "Essentials" stuff for a different update entirely.)
The sycophants and EULA quoters aren't worth our time. 4E =/= Essentials; Essentials =/= 4E. To WotC/DDI: GO "SOON" YOURSELVES. Internet Rule #41. Needs moar Desu. No exceptions.
Gleemax quality is back?

Disappointed. 
It's all speculation, there's no reason to think they're replacing CB/MB (which they are still updating in their current offline functionality) with the new web tools, it's far more likely that the new tools are entirely new tools. Haven't we had enough speculation and threats?

Mind you, this could've been mitigated by clearer, more pre-emptive comms from WotC. I grant that. 
Mudbunny - I have a question to add to the list if you are still taking them:

"Why do the Wizards of the Coast account representatives ask for name, email, password, etc. when they should already have this information?"

I logged in to the help system and requested a refund for September.  Instead of a simple reply I was faced with sending details over an unsecured (didn't see any encryption on it) form to receive my refund.  If I have the rights to log in to my account I should not have to provide said account details again.

Does that make sense?  Did anyone else report this behavior by account representatives to you, Mudbunny?
It's all speculation, there's no reason to think they're replacing CB/MB (which they are still updating in their current offline functionality) with the new web tools, it's far more likely that the new tools are entirely new tools. Haven't we had enough speculation and threats?

Mind you, this could've been mitigated by clearer, more pre-emptive comms from WotC. I grant that. 




It is pure speculation. My read of Trevor's comment - I think he said "web-based tools system"? suggested to me that they're looking to fold the tools under a single, web-based approach to the suite of tools. It does seem like throwing away a ton of work. 

However, that work is sunk cost, so if the management decided that there's a new direction starting Yesterday...the programmers get paid just as much to march as to fight (and probably a lot more).  

I as well hit that snag and chewed out the representative for requesting this information as EVERY other company tells you to never give this information to anyone even someone claiming to be a representative. I was then told to call customer service if i felt insecure about there security.

In the end I responded back informing him that i expect to see a refund on my credit card before november as thats when my account expires and he doesnt need to confirm who i am in order to process a refund wizards has informed me im entitled to and i havnt received a respoonse so we will see how it goes. In the end i lose nothing if i cancel my subscription I'd just rather have access when i want it.

"Why do the Wizards of the Coast account representatives ask for name, email, password, etc. when they should already have this information?"



Does that make sense?  Did anyone else report this behavior by account representatives to you, Mudbunny?



People have brought it up as what they have had to do, but I have not been asked to find out why before.

I as well hit that snag and chewed out the representative for requesting this information



I am not sure that it is appropriate to get angry at a front line CS representative for asking what their procedures require them to ask. I have passed the question up the line.

as EVERY other company tells you to never give this information to anyone even someone claiming to be a representative. I was then told to call customer service if i felt insecure about there security.

In the end I responded back informing him that i expect to see a refund on my credit card before november as thats when my account expires and he doesnt need to confirm who i am in order to process a refund wizards has informed me im entitled to



From my understanding, WotC CS procedures require account verification in order to ensure that the person asking for a refund for a given account is actually the person authorized to access that account. Without providing that information, I would be surprised if they were authorized to process a refund.

(Note that the above is my guess. I do not know WotC CS procedures.)

Mudbunny SVCL for DDI Before you post, think of the Monkeysphere
Mudbunny - I have a question to add to the list if you are still taking them:

"Why do the Wizards of the Coast account representatives ask for name, email, password, etc. when they should already have this information?"

I logged in to the help system and requested a refund for September.  Instead of a simple reply I was faced with sending details over an unsecured (didn't see any encryption on it) form to receive my refund.  If I have the rights to log in to my account I should not have to provide said account details again.

Does that make sense?  Did anyone else report this behavior by account representatives to you, Mudbunny?



No Wizards of the Coast rep will ever ask for your password.

Mudbunny's guess is a very good one.
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Of the two approaches to hobby games today, one is best defined as the realism-simulation school and the other as the game school. AD&D is assuredly an adherent of the latter school. It does not stress any realism (in the author's opinon an absurd effort at best considering the topic!). It does little to attempt to simulate anything either. (AD&D) is first and foremost a game for the fun and enjoyment of those who seek the use of imagination and creativity.... In all cases, however, the reader should understand that AD&D is designed to be an amusing and diverting pastime, something which an fill a few hours or consume endless days, as the participants desire, but in no case something to be taken too seriously. For fun, excitement and captivating fantasy, AD&D is unsurpassed.As a realistic simulation of things from the realm of make-believe or even as a reflection of midieval or ancient warfare or culture or society, it can be deemed only a dismal failure. Readers who seek the later must search elsewhere. - Gary Gygax. 1e DMG.
I would like to know if these web based tools will offer some sort of "DDI Cloud Services®" to save your characters and access them from anywhere.
It would also be good to know if they are aiming for mobile device support, either for the existing or the new tools.
Im not saying i jumped down there throat i understand what its like doing your job and being required to do things so ill admit my previous post was a bit exagerated. But i did inform the representative that requesting certain items of information is innapropriate as many people use certain information in more than one place that goes for security questions and passwords. After finding out the representative had access to this information i immedietly changed any passwords that matched that one and the same for the security questions.

Many MMO's and other sites including my bank and credit card company have all sent notices to there customers to never give out the information that was requested of me as you dont know if the person on the other end wont use that information for personal gain. Thats why these companys have ensured alternative ways of protection. my credit card company and bank will never ask me for my PIN because the representative doesnt have access to that information for obvious reasons.

All WotC is doing right now is opening the door for anyone with a keylogger on there PC to blame WotC when this information is used to access anything that shares the same access codes after they have contacted a rep as most people take the shortest route to answers when things go wrong and in the end wizards has no way of proving that there not responsible for the information being leaked even though they didnt have anything to do with it getting leaked.

Its not that any of are beleive wizards will compromise this information but rather that the potential is there and in an age of information where the security of technology isnt progressing as fast as people are learning how to compromise it. (proof being every DVD, CD and website that have been cracked or being accessed through back doors)

Im not honestly trying to create an outrage over this but having a stranger asking me for information that could potentially get them into my bank account, credit cards and other subscriptions is very bothersome even knowing anything of actual value didnt share this information as i only used that password and security question for a couple gaming forums and nothing else.
Many MMO's and other sites including my bank and credit card company have all sent notices to there customers to never give out the information that was requested of me as you dont know if the person on the other end wont use that information for personal gain. Thats why these companys have ensured alternative ways of protection. my credit card company and bank will never ask me for my PIN because the representative doesnt have access to that information for obvious reasons.



And WotC CS reps will not, as Webster has indicated, ask for your password. Asking you your security questions, OTOH, is perfectly reasonable to do. That is what they are there for, to verify that the person calling to access the account is the person who should be accessing the account. It is the same as when I call my credit card company, they ask me things like my mohter's maiden name, my birthday, my phone number, etc. To verify that you are who you say you are.

Mudbunny SVCL for DDI Before you post, think of the Monkeysphere
Perhaps I have not made the situation clear nor my question.  I apologize for that.

Here is another attempt:

"Why does Wizards of the Coast require personal details including the answer to a security question be sent over a form system that is not secure in order for a refund to be processed?"

I did not intend to be combative with the tone of my previous post but I am quite concerned that they have no apparent encryption on that page.  If I can be shown appropriate encryption, I would be glad to supply what they require.  I instead provided a phone number and publicly available information to identify myself and I asked them to call to confirm further details if necessary.

Perhaps a related question, Mudbunny (and thanks again for your previous reply):

"Why would a stranger log in to someone's personal DDI account and request a refund, especially such a small sum as this would be?"

I confess this might be seen as a rhetorical question.  I guess it just seems silly to me that one can renew one's account without jumping through the same hoops but one cannot request the simple refund of a single month's service easily.  I will not ascribe to malice what could be more easily explained otherwise so I will await an answer to this and, more importantly, the first question.

Thank you again to Mudbunny and Webster for the time in conveyance and deliberation.
Mudbunny - I have a question to add to the list if you are still taking them:

"Why do the Wizards of the Coast account representatives ask for name, email, password, etc. when they should already have this information?"

I logged in to the help system and requested a refund for September.  Instead of a simple reply I was faced with sending details over an unsecured (didn't see any encryption on it) form to receive my refund.  If I have the rights to log in to my account I should not have to provide said account details again.

Does that make sense?  Did anyone else report this behavior by account representatives to you, Mudbunny?




I as well hit that snag and chewed out the representative for requesting this information as EVERY other company tells you to never give this information to anyone even someone claiming to be a representative. I was then told to call customer service if i felt insecure about there security.

In the end I responded back informing him that i expect to see a refund on my credit card before november as thats when my account expires and he doesnt need to confirm who i am in order to process a refund wizards has informed me im entitled to and i havnt received a respoonse so we will see how it goes. In the end i lose nothing if i cancel my subscription I'd just rather have access when i want it.



If, as one of you claimed, they actually asked for your password, that would indeed be a serious problem. However, everything else mentioned is pretty routine, my bank, power company, ISP etc routinely ask for that information. I realize Yehlankrosz claimed otherwise, but, well, at least in my experience he's what's known as "wrong". It's far more usual than it is unusual.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
I will first appologize as i have done some further checking on wizards use of the security question and understand that it is not used for the same purposes as i had previously beleived in my last post.

Unlike other companys wizards does not use the security question for anything beyond identification when dealing with reps unlike alot of other companys that use it as a backdoor password to reset your account information including your password.

With that said i do agree with taliesinangelus in regards to sending this information over a form that has no obvious security.

To answer taliesinangelus though i dont like to admit this reasoning wizards needs your approval to access your credit card even for a refund and they must be able to prove you authorized the access. The reason why companys like blizzard dont require all this information is because they dont give refunds they give account extensions which they dont need your approval to do since there not accessing something that is not theres.

I think the only reason the refunds for september are such an issue is because they dont own or control the company that bills your credit card as they license that feature so they need to be able to give this other company proof that you are who you are when trying to send a refund otherwise wizards or the company could get in trouble if for some reason you complain about getting the refund without giving them permission to access your credit card information. As well to my understanding wizards doesnt run there own subscription service as they have given that duty to a 3rd party as well and there deal may have provisions based on how many subscribers they have to process and giving away a free month to everyone could cost alot more money than giving a refund in the end.

Alot of this is based on alot of assumptions and putting together alot of random things ive read so i appologize if im way off the mark but it makes sense to me.


Many MMO's and other sites including my bank and credit card company have all sent notices to there customers to never give out the information that was requested of me as you dont know if the person on the other end wont use that information for personal gain. Thats why these companys have ensured alternative ways of protection. my credit card company and bank will never ask me for my PIN because the representative doesnt have access to that information for obvious reasons.


This is true of passwords and PINs, but not of the other kinds of information mentioned here. Especially the security questions, in fact this is the flippin' point of them. WotC's procedure with respect to those is the same as my bank's procedure with respect to those. Never mind, I see you came to similar conclusions on your own.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
Hi jeff-heikkinen - please see the clarification of my question in the post above yours.  I imagine you would not give anyone your information if the form is not secure, but I am assuming that.  At the very least, SSL encryption would be advisable and not hard to apply to their environment.  If I can be shown where I have misrepresented Wizards of the Coast as to their encryption, I would be glad to apologize and withdraw my question and color commentary.


To answer taliesinangelus though i dont like to admit this reasoning wizards needs your approval to access your credit card even for a refund and they must be able to prove you authorized the access. The reason why companys like blizzard dont require all this information is because they dont give refunds they give account extensions which they dont need your approval to do since there not accessing something that is not theres.

I think the only reason the refunds for september are such an issue is because they dont own or control the company that bills your credit card as they license that feature so they need to be able to give this other company proof that you are who you are when trying to send a refund otherwise wizards or the company could get in trouble if for some reason you complain about getting the refund without giving them permission to access your credit card information. As well to my understanding wizards doesnt run there own subscription service as they have given that duty to a 3rd party as well and there deal may have provisions based on how many subscribers they have to process and giving away a free month to everyone could cost alot more money than giving a refund in the end.



I think this is a quite reasonable assumption to make and I would draw the same conclusions from having read the same.  It is indeed typical to identify one's self to obtain certain services of a financial nature.  I suppose I am advocating for a more transparent and convenient process as a client while expressing my concern for the nature of the conveyance of my personal information to the third party during the process we may infer as previously stated.
Mudbunny - I have a question to add to the list if you are still taking them:

"Why do the Wizards of the Coast account representatives ask for name, email, password, etc. when they should already have this information?"

I logged in to the help system and requested a refund for September.  Instead of a simple reply I was faced with sending details over an unsecured (didn't see any encryption on it) form to receive my refund.  If I have the rights to log in to my account I should not have to provide said account details again.

Does that make sense?  Did anyone else report this behavior by account representatives to you, Mudbunny?




I as well hit that snag and chewed out the representative for requesting this information as EVERY other company tells you to never give this information to anyone even someone claiming to be a representative. I was then told to call customer service if i felt insecure about there security.

In the end I responded back informing him that i expect to see a refund on my credit card before november as thats when my account expires and he doesnt need to confirm who i am in order to process a refund wizards has informed me im entitled to and i havnt received a respoonse so we will see how it goes. In the end i lose nothing if i cancel my subscription I'd just rather have access when i want it.



If, as one of you claimed, they actually asked for your password, that would indeed be a serious problem. However, everything else mentioned is pretty routine, my bank, power company, ISP etc routinely ask for that information. I realize Yehlankrosz claimed otherwise, but, well, at least in my experience he's what's known as "wrong". It's far more usual than it is unusual.



Im going to assume your an american as based solely on population odds are you are. In canada security laws are far more extreme and there are certain pieces of information that is illegal to request. For example stores are not allowed to ask you for your drivers license in order to prove your identity, though they are allowed to call your credit card company and require the company to identify you and pre-approve the transaction or even deny you service altogether so people will usually do it anyways.

Incase an arguement comes up about canada vs US account security the observation that canada has more information protection laws has come from a couple american roomates i had not long ago. Further proof of that is apparent over copyright laws and the prosecution of people in regards to piracy. American ISP's are required to give up personal information of there customers to identify downloaders and uploaders of pirated content. In canada ISP's wont give out this information as the information is protected by law without court order which is going to be hard when you dont know who your actually going after. There are alot of other examples i could give but thats not relevant to the main point.

So in regards to me being 'wrong' in regards to the american system i am more than happy to admit im wrong as im in canada and am more than happy that im right because i dont have to worry about the information being sold to the highest bidder or given away to whoever asks for it. Heck our telemarketers dont even get access to our phone numbers and we can even request to have them remove us from there call system and there not allowed to legaly call us ever again without getting massive fines.

Though they did not ask me for my password i had previously commented that asking your security question answer is as good as which i just finished posting that wizards only uses that information as proof of identity unlike other company who also use it as a secondary access password to your account.

*edit* just to point out something that someone else will most likely point out canadian privacy laws are a major bone of contention with the US government as this also protects canadians from american companys trying to get this information and even the US government from getting ISP information required to identify someone who has commited a computer crime towards someone in the US (someone in canada hacks your computer or a company and causes trouble) Though those types of claims are usually picked up by our RCMP the US authoritys would rather they were able to control the situation and usually if anyone is arrested for it they are prosecuted in canada under canadian law and out in canadian prison which again the US authority hates though that type of behavior happens on both sides of the border.

Im going to assume your an american as based solely on population odds are you are. In canada security laws are far more extreme and there are certain pieces of information that is illegal to request.


Okay, now I know you're being disingenuous, since the bank I was referring to was the Royal Bank of Canada.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
Hmm, I requested a refund and got it within a couple of days, I didn't have to provide any security info though.

It was all quite seamless and easy.

Daniel. 
Personally havnt had dealings with the royal bank since i was 12 so cant speak on there policys but TD canada trust and Servus credit Union (Servus may be a provincial bank im not sure how far they have expanded) both never get access to your PIN code though a manager can reset it for you if you forget it. TD also has a security question that can be used to bypass your password for online its actually 3 questions with 3 hopefully different answers (you pick the questions from a pre-set list and make your own answers) once again i can call a rep and talk to there online services to have them reset but they have no idea what your answers are.

If Royal Bank is different then i appologize though that does explain why they have had several incidents of identity theft especially with online purchases over the last couple years though i cant say for sure if there are more or less incidents with that bank that others they just may have more hit the news than others.

As for everything else feel free to dispute that if you like but after working 2 years at a convenience store and having our store hit by a lawsuit because one of the newer staff requested a customers drivers license to hold onto while the customer ran home to get his wallet to pay for the gas he just pumped we all got a swift education on photo I.D. and requesting personal I.D.

Beyond that my issue wasnt me being required to give this information at the time it was finding out they had access to certain information i beleived only i would get access as that left the security of other sites i use open to access by perfect strangers. But as i have already appologized and corrected in an earlier post WotC are using there security questions in a responsible manner and there reps having access to that information is standard and understandable and i have since given the rep the information originally requested and appologized for my assumpsions.

As for the security of there forms system though i jumped on the band wagon of paranoia about it i realized that ive probably sent more personal information over less secure sights in the past without worrying about it so why bother here. Not saying it wouldnt be nice to know how secure the information is for peace of mind but unless i hear of a massive security breach im going to assume WotC have taken the proper steps to ensure my personal informations safety.

In direct response to jeff-heikkinen though i appreciate the personal touch but you might want to check out some other banks on how they secure personal information because it sounds like yours hasnt caught up with the digital age yet. Banks like TD canada trust only have good customer security because of there procurement of canada trust several years back who were rated as one of the safest banks to bank with shortly before TD and them merged. The big banks of canada tend to be a little lazy at times since they dont have the competition the U.S. banking system has considering i spent 2 weeks in oregon and had to of passed by a dozen different banks with different names just driving out of portland from the airport. End i dont think its that U.S. banks have less security at there banks just less laws forcing those banks to keep the information secret or i guess more laws allowing certain partys to get access to the information, im not exactly sure i lost my US vs canada legal system banter partner after my moms last divorce (an american accountant)
For the record, Mudbunny, the Wizards of the Coast representative I am dealing with is merely restating their request for an answer to the security question over and over again with no regard to my request for phone contact from them to verify my identity or in fact any response to what I wrote at all.  I will not in good conscious provide them this personal information over an insecure connection and they do not provide encryption in their interface.

Furthermore, I have tried to proactively call the Customer Service 800 number listed in the representative's email signature lines.  I chose the DDI Account option and the person answering the phone referred me to the email address for customer service.  They could not even pull up my case details and they could not help me.

I am trying to be polite, Mudbunny, but my patience with the process is running thin, especially since another poster here mentioned that they were not required to provide the information I am being asked to provide.
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