9/29/2010 BoaB: "I Can't Take Much Myr of This"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Building on a Budget, which goes live Wednesday morning on magicthegathering.com.
This article makes the bizarre assumption that instant speed artifact removal won't be played.  Maybe it won't be *that* common pre-sideboard, but post?  When the current set is almost half artifacts?
This article makes the bizarre assumption that instant speed artifact removal won't be played.  Maybe it won't be *that* common pre-sideboard, but post?  When the current set is almost half artifacts?



He did after say this deck is trying to take advantage of the post-rotation black hole of "whadda ya play now?"

As for the article, I really like how you set it up. It flows very well, and the deck is rather cute. 

(at)MrEnglish22

As for the article, I really like how you set it up. It flows very well, and the deck is rather cute. 

If it's like every other rotation ever, we've got about two weeks before everyone starts playing the same netdeck.

did he just forget about palladium myr?
I was so close.... I sent him a deck that same week that focussed on a very similar combo.  2 Galvanizers and a Palladium Myr get you infinite mana, then blast a Comet Storm at the head, or you can infinitely activate Myr Propagator for infinite myr.  A god hand draw can win on turn 4.  Comet Storm may be a poor excuse for a Fireball, but it's a prerelease card datestamped with my birthday on it, so I've been waiting for a good deck to use it in.

But I was able to take a lot of advice on how to assemble a reliable combo deck in this environment (I always forget about scry's usefulness in a combo deck) and apply it to my deck.  How can I not be playing a combo deck in the sequel to the block that brought me the KCI deck?  :D
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I don't think the list has enough mana generating myr.  You have to remember that one needs to be alive for the combo.  
These humans, their imaginations are strong. Kill a thousand men and they will hate you. Kill a million men and they will queue to face you. But kill a single man and they will see monsters and devils in every shadow. Kill a dozen men and they will scream and wail in the night, and they shall feel not hatred, but fear. Excerpt from Simon Spurrier's Lord of the Night
The first thing I thought of when I saw this combo was comparisons to scapeshift. A four mana combo card that can win games out of the blue in an otherwise agro deck. If "the myr deck" ends up being good enough, that sort of build might be dangerous. Anyone agree?
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There is no need to run Palladium Myr since you aren't trying to get infinte mana. People often forget that getting infinite mana in and of itself doesn't do you any good; you need another card that can use the infinite mana (i.e. Comet Storm or Myr Propagator as mentioned). The problem with the mana route is it takes more cards to assemble, and thus is less reliable. This is essentially a 2-card combo since any mana myr will do. I kinda like Spell Pierce over Negate since it means you can combo off one turn earlier (with counter backup). Spell Pierce gets nowhere near the love it deserves. This is more of a true budget deck for all of those complainers. The only cards that would probably be changed in a nonbudget version woul be Forsee-->Jace and 4 basics-->Scaldind Tarns, but those chages really aren't all that necessary, and I think Forsee might actually be better than Jace here. 
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein My H/W List

"I understand that it's competing with Jace, the Mind Sculptor at the same mana cost. Jace is certainly better in this deck, but decks that have no way to protect the planewalker may be better off with Foresee."


Powerful words.  Very interesting.


"The only non-red instant speed removal in the format is Doom Blade. This type of strategy is very strong until people start finding new ways to interact at instant speed."


My brain can't accept this.  I'm going to have to comb through the lists...it just CAN'T be true...


 


"The only non-red instant speed removal in the format is Doom Blade. This type of strategy is very strong until people start finding new ways to interact at instant speed."


My brain can't accept this.  I'm going to have to comb through the lists...it just CAN'T be true...




Naturalize and Grasp of Darkness, just off the top of my head.  (Yeah, I had the same reaction to that statement.)

After browsing Gatherer: Consume the Meek (big ouch there), Disfigure, Hideous End, Induce Despair, Instill Infection, Last Kiss, Smother, Stabbing Pain, and Tendrils of Corruption, and that's all just in Black instants, to say nothing of Green and White artifact-kill.
Since the Splinter Twin combo started being talked about I thought about a U/R combo deck using some of the mentioned cards in this article. I decided to go for a different aggro alternate win-con with Myr BattleSphere but Perilous Myr does seem interesting with Myr Reservoir. If anyone's interested my deck list is:



I believe this is a awesome budget deck considering that the total cost is less then $50 dollars. It's probably not going to win any tournaments but great for a FNM.
After browsing Gatherer: Consume the Meek (big ouch there), Disfigure, Hideous End, Induce Despair, Instill Infection, Last Kiss, Smother, Stabbing Pain, and Tendrils of Corruption, and that's all just in Black instants, to say nothing of Green and White artifact-kill.



On the other hand none of these (ok hideous end) can kill a Titan (tendrils is no longer in standard, alas!)... but are deadly against the deck, consume the meekin particular. So if the assumption is that one comes equipped for Titans and not for weenies then the deck is safe.

Otherwise....

Another thing, though: wouldn't incorporating an infinite mana aspect (with palladium myr) render the deck more consistent? In particular Fireball/Comet Storm could still use the additional mana even when not infinite.

Nice deck anyway!
21 Land + 4 Iron Myr + 4 Silver Myr seems like a better mana base, and adds more consistency to the combo....
Kuldotha Forgemaster would also interact well with the Reservoir, since you can use the Reservoir to get back the artifacts you sac to the Forgemaster.  It's tutoring also doesn't require you to reveal your card, so your opponent might not catch on quite as quickly... it is expensive though.

Redundancies and back up plans make any combo deck better... if you include the infinite mana combo by adding paladium myr (although as long as you have two mana myr you don't need the propagator... so technically he's already got the infinite mana combo in there), then you can win with spliter twin, you can win with mana using fireball or propagator... it just gives you more options.  Then if there's room you can have a couple Battlesphere's in there if everything else fails.
~ Current Decks I'm Playing or Building ~ (Click a deck's name to see list) [] CorpseJunk Menace/Township Counters (Standard) [] Reanimation/Clerics Theme Deck - Commander: Ghost Dad [] Devouring Tokens (Planechase, Multiplayer) [] Krark-Clan Ironworks: 2012 Edition (Modern) [] Azorious Turbo Fog (Modern)
People may actually use Pitfall Trapor Journey to Nowhere now.  It is true that most of the good removal is gone (Terminate, O-ring, Path to Exile, etc).  There is still plenty of removal left though.

@ Chroniclerc

Green, white, and red artifact kill spells won't kill Titans or other non-artifact creatures.
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I liked the deck, but I would have also liked to see it playtested. Sure, we don't know what all the top Constructed decks will be once Scars is in Standard and Alara block isn't, but we can make a few educated guesses. Mythic Conscription is gone, Jund is gone (not that I've seen too much of it for the past few months anyway), Red Deck Wins probably gets a little better but a little rarer (gets Koth of the Hammer, a little new burn to choose from, and your choice of artifact removal, but on the other hand it loses Hell's Thunder and Hellspark Elemental), and as this article points out, white control loses some of its best removal (most of its pieces are still around, though). Most other decks are unaffected. The metagame will change around them and they might change in response and/or just fail, but they're still there. Can this deck outrace a Primeval Titan deck? Can it get past a UW control deck with, for the sake of argument, Revoke Existence in place of Path to Exile and Elspeth Tirel in place of Elspeth, Knight-Errant?

If nothing else, play three or four games of goldfish with this deck to see how long it takes for its combo to go off.
Kuldotha Forgemaster would also interact well with the Reservoir, since you can use the Reservoir to get back the artifacts you sac to the Forgemaster.  It's tutoring also doesn't require you to reveal your card, so your opponent might not catch on quite as quickly... it is expensive though.


I don't understand this. Kuldotha Forgemaster doesn't require you to reveal the card simply because it's put directly into play. How does that prevent your opponent from catching on to anything? Also, the deck right now only has 17 artifacts, so the idea that you'll have enough spares lying around to sacrifice but still be missing a combo piece seems unlikely. Sure, you never know, it could happen, but this is a small enough combo that sacrificing three permanents to tutor for part of it doesn't look worthwhile.
"I'd like to reiterate just how few cards actually interact with us. The only non-red instant speed removal in the format is Doom Blade."

What format is he playing exactly? I see a lot of instant removal in black (Consume the Meek, Grasp of Darkness, Smother, Tendrils of Corruption, among others), not to mention a lot of green/white artifact instant removal that will be played post-rotation, at least in boards if not main. And the "killing titans" argument is moot. He counts Lightning Bolt as removal...that doesn't kill titans alone. Couple with that there's already tons of red decks being played and will be more post-rotation. Seems bad.

This article, while presenting a cute combo, failed miserably on strategy and knowledge of the current cardbase.
Hi all.

I am a bit confused by some of the assumptions/omissions here.

I understand that a few key instant speed removal cards are now out of standard, but we have plenty of replacements, like:

Celestial purge.....there goes splinter twin.

Feast of Blood.....myr are crunchy and taste good with ketchup

Unsummon.....at least a delay to the splinter twin combo

Quag sickness, cunning sparkmage with a basilisk collar, there are many many ways to kill critters still.  I think Jacob has a neat combo but i also feel he missed the boat on strategy as chewy106 pointed out.

I agree with the general consensus that Jacob has missed a number of points here but I am not sure that Celestial Purge is one of them.  Given that you can't cast it until Splinter Twin becomes active (i.e. in play) it is likely that the combo will go off as soon as you play Splinter Twin and once the duplications have become stacked the purge wont save you.
"I'd like to reiterate just how few cards actually interact with us. The only non-red instant speed removal in the format is Doom Blade."

What format is he playing exactly? I see a lot of instant removal in black (Consume the Meek, Grasp of Darkness, Smother, Tendrils of Corruption, among others), not to mention a lot of green/white artifact instant removal that will be played post-rotation, at least in boards if not main. And the "killing titans" argument is moot. He counts Lightning Bolt as removal...that doesn't kill titans alone. Couple with that there's already tons of red decks being played and will be more post-rotation. Seems bad.

This article, while presenting a cute combo, failed miserably on strategy and knowledge of the current cardbase.



As already mentioned before, Tendrils of Corruption is no longer legal in Standard after rotation. Consume the Meek does see play, but not very much. Smother and Grasp are fair examples. Disfigure and Urge to Feed are also cards you might see. How is the point about the Titans moot? He's saying that if most decks are worried about being able to deal with Titans, they will be less apt to play cards like Smother and Grasp of Darkness. I'm not sure how he failed to include the most likely suit of artifact removal that most decks will be playing in the side, if not in the main.

@dndgrupp: As someone stated above, you can get infinite mana if you have 2 mana Myr. I'm not sure having the alternate win is really worth the price of having to cut other utility cards. How many cards can stop the creature route that can't stop the spell route? Consume the Meek is really the only card I can think of. I could see maybe adding 1 Comet Storm and switching out a few of the myr for Palladium Myr I suppose.

@
Falcon_U: In response to you replicating your myr, they can Purge the Splinter Twin so that when the ability resolves the Splinter Twin will be gone. 
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein My H/W List
Jacob is right in thinking that non-red instant removal that can distrupt a combo based on an aura like Splinter Twin will be very scarce in the new format. You guys can name available removal options all you want, the truth is that Doom Blade is the only one that's versatile enough to be good against most opponents, including combo decks like this, and thus, it is the only one good players will really feel safe playing main deck. I expect Grip of Darkness to show up here and there, but not as a 4-of, as it's poor against ramp decks, especially those that don't rely on creature-based acceleration, as well as control decks with too big win conditions such as Baneslayer or Titans. As for sideboards, that's much harder to tell, but the deck's own sideboard could also adapt the deck to better fight extra removal. All Jacob was pointing out is that a combo based on creatures and an aura seems less vulnerable than usual at the moment, which looks true as far as we can tell for now. If the red deck with Koth becomes too popular, that will be a real problem, though.
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Jacob must have forgotten Unsummon and its friends.  Though they don't do much against titans, they sure wreck Splinter Twin.  As well as Negate & co.  There are instant speed answers in every color, considering Shatter, Slice in Twain, Naturalize...  Hmm, can't find one in white, actually.  No Disenchant any more.  Oh well.
@ Chroniclerc

Green, white, and red artifact kill spells won't kill Titans or other non-artifact creatures.


Not the point.  Jacob was saying that Standard lacks ways to interact with his combo at instant-speed.  Not only is there an abundance of quite good instant creature-kill, we're moving into a Standard with freakin' Mirrodin.  Assuming that people won't main-deck some kind of artifact-hate if they can is a serious mistake.

Also, my appologies for including Tendrils in my list earlier.  The Gatherer filters failed me.
The way I was reading the comments on the forum and the article was that there wasn't much you could use against the TITANS.  Which is EXACTLY the point of my comment.  I know full well that there is plenty of artifact removal, especially in SoM, but it is all useless against the Titans.

Quote from the article that I was referring to:

" Path to Exile is no longer in Standard. A lot of cards that may have been "good" before the rotation just got a lot better. For example, Doom Blade and Day of Judgment are now the only two cards that could possibly threaten your Titan. The Titans from Magic 2011 were already pretty impressive, but the lack of Path to Exile really pushes them over the top."
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@ Chroniclerc

Green, white, and red artifact kill spells won't kill Titans or other non-artifact creatures.


Not the point.  Jacob was saying that Standard lacks ways to interact with his combo at instant-speed.  Not only is there an abundance of quite good instant creature-kill, we're moving into a Standard with freakin' Mirrodin.  Assuming that people won't main-deck some kind of artifact-hate if they can is a serious mistake.

Also, my appologies for including Tendrils in my list earlier.  The Gatherer filters failed me.

Jacob's point is that there is no abundance of instant creature-kill that good players playing serious decks will actually play, except for red burn decks that may or may not be played a lot. I am pretty sure that not all of the cards your Gatherer search showed are good enough to be maindecked; care to list all those? And assuming that players will maindeck cards with a high risk of being dead when not facing an artifact deck is a serious mistake. A standard with freakin' Mirrodin is not necessarly a standard where all decks will play freakin' Mirrodin artifacts. There still will be several archetypes based on Zendikar block and M11 that will not play a single artifact.

To the posters mentionning counterspells : you missed the point. We're talking about cards that could 2-for-1 you when you cast Splinter Twin, i.e. instant removal spells.

Oh, and no one in his right mind plays Unsummon in constructed these days. There's Into the Roil, but that's about it for blue.

Magic The Gathering DCI Lvl 1 Judge Don't hesitate to post rules question in the Rules Q&A forum for me and other competent advisors to answer : http://community.wizards.com/go/forum/view/75842/134778/Rules_Q38A
I like this deck, Ive liked this deck since 2 or 3 weeks ago when I made it off the spoilers when galvanizer was first spoiled.  I think everyone saw this coming, and I dont think myr ball is going to become competitive in standard.  Don't get me wrong, this is the kind of deck I want to see in this column, not a washed down copy of a standard deck, it just doesnt seem like he puts very much work or thought into the decks he makes.  IT seems as though he as a premade pattern for each of his archtypes. amd his combos are either not very inspired, or stolen from a deck that already exists.  And has anyone tested those perilous myr? they don't seem worth messing with the combo.  Id rather have 2 palladium and 2 proagator.  I mean it takes 5 mana to put a perilous back into play, and you can only do this once per turn.  No, palladium does not help the combo, yes palladium does help you get to forsee mana, yes palladium does ensure you have enough mana for counter magic, and yes, palladium is a 3/3 with galvanizer out.  not flaming, just saying
I would like to add a few aspects:

What about Augury Owl? Sice you have to get the combo fast or you will die I
would suggest to swap the 4 Perilous Myr with Augury Owl.

What about Darksteel Myr? It is very defensive but will you win the game with
Perilous Myr? Mybe replace some Perilous Myr with the Darksteel ones?

When you have Myr Galvanizer on the table and two mana Myr you have an
infinite mana combo. Maybe we should put some fireballs into the deck to use
this decond win option. Maybe replaye 2 Lightning Bolt with 2 Fireball?

Well - thats my three aspects. I would appreciate some feedback.
Thanks!
Maybe I'm just out of touch with the format, but surely the Titans aren't the only creatures in the format worth packing kill-spells for, are they?  I, for one, would be happy to main a batch of Grasp of Darkness in my black deck, or a few Naturalize or Slice in Twain in a green deck.  Red, of course, has answers aplenty, but naming Lightning Bolt as an answer to this deck almost seems like cheating.

That said, I didn't see any White Instants that could stop this deck for longer than a single turn (except for some Enchantment destruction cards unlikely to see maindeck), nor did I see much hope for Blue except in bounce, with Into the Roil, and maybe Unsummon (if you're weird) being the only ones that really look good enough for maindeck.  It's possible there are some maindeck-quality creature, enchantment, or artifact activated-abilities that could thwart it, but nothing comes to mind.

Oh, and while I'm thinking of it, you people need to stop suggesting alternate win conditions.  Since when did an infinite number of infinity/infinity creatures with haste need an alternate win condition?  The only actual reason I see for this deck to run Fireball/Comet Storm is to kill Platinum Angel or Platinum Emperion
Oh, and while I'm thinking of it, you people need to stop suggesting alternate win conditions.  Since when did an infinite number of infinity/infinity creatures with haste need an alternate win condition?  The only actual reason I see for this deck to run Fireball/Comet Storm is to kill Platinum Angel or Platinum Emperion


Well, having alternate win conditions means that you have an improved
chance to get to the win condicion. That means you have a higher chance
to win...

Well, having alternate win conditions means that you have an improved chance to get to the win condition. That means you have a higher chance to win...


Except that doing so either dilutes the main combo or removes utility cards that help reach the combo.  I'm just sticking with "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", ya know?  Your other two ideas aren't bad, though.
okay lets brake down the odds of this deck being brought down by removal or artifact hate.

Lets say the average deck realistically has max 8 target removal for critters (4 of each spell) and 4 of some spell that kills artifacts (shatter, naterlize, disenchant ect.) Thats means we are looking at 12 cards in total. Now granted that doesn't count for mass removal or burn but just for the sake of argument lets say 4 more of some nuke or burn spell.

16 so far so good now lets go with basic deck construction.

22 lands
16 removal of some type
-------------------------------
38 cards total

That leaves 22 cards to exacute some kind of "win".

Which isn't alot when you should have tutoring or draw spells of some type in there too.

So you have 16 times someone can screw with your combo or creatures in general if they draw them all. With Myr Resivoir you can bring all your myr back every time.

Plus this deck has counter spells.

I think this deck can stand on its own.
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Something about this Galvanizer combo doesn't make sense:

"You cast the Splinter Twin on the Myr Galvanizer. Tap the enchanted Galvanizer to make a copy, tap the mana-producing myr to use the untap ability of the copy"

Wouldn't the copy have summoning sickness?

Rule 302.6: A creature's activated ability with the tap symbol or the untap symbol in its activation cost can't be activated unless the creature has been under its controller's control continuously since his or her most recent turn began
Wouldn't the copy have summoning sickness?


Yes - but the Copy has Haste...
D'oh!  Missed that... Thanks!