The Illusion of Hope: An Orbizard|Invoker

157 posts / 0 new
Last post
This is an offshoot of one of my hybrid builds for my Hybrid Compendium. Basically, it does one trick extraordinarily well at level 13th and should be putting itself into top-tier controller builds just on that basis. Namely:
On an Action Point, it grants the party +Int to attack rolls against those targets until Start of Next Turn. At 11th, this is +5 to hit to hit against whoever was targeted by the Action Point attack. This also works for the Wizard|Invoker

13th level, it gains Seal of the Heretic. Because the Invoker choice is Wrath, it is -5 to all saves until End of Next Turn on a hit. As we're generally spending an Action Point, odds are we're not missing.

This is then followed up by an attack that does heavy control with a Save Ends. Stun, Dominate, etc...the people hit on this basis alone are not happy.

But this means really good things for the party - everyone in the party can target those people with their save ends attacks and get +Int to hit and have their targets have -5 to saves.

Finally, Orb of Heightened Imposition means that we can spend the Orb of Imposition power on any encounter power, not just wizard. So the next round, we can extend that -5 penalty to saves. This trick only works for the hybrid - the Wizard can't get Wrath, the Invoker can't get Orb of Imposition, and PMC'ing loses Flame of Hope.

level 13

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Invoker_Wizard, level 13
Deva, Invoker|Wizard, Flame of Hope
Covenant Manifestation: Manifestation of Wrath
Hybrid Invoker: Hybrid Invoker Reflex
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Staff)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Orb)
Hybrid Talent: Arcane Implement Mastery
Arcane Implement Mastery: Orb of Imposition

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 11, Con 13, Dex 9, Int 21, Wis 21, Cha 13.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 12, Dex 8, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 12.


AC: 26 Fort: 20 Reflex: 25 Will: 26
HP: 71 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 17

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +18, Insight +16, Arcana +16

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +5, Bluff +7, Diplomacy +7, Dungeoneering +11, Endurance +7, Heal +11, History +13, Intimidate +7, Nature +11, Perception +11, Stealth +5, Streetwise +7, Thievery +5, Athletics +6

FEATS
Level 1: Unarmored Agility
Level 2: Battle Intuition
Level 4: Versatile Expertise
Level 6: Superior Implement Training (Accurate orb)
Level 8: Enlarge Spell
Level 10: Hybrid Talent
Level 11: Initiate of the Faith
Level 12: Spell Focus

POWERS
Hybrid at-will 1: Hand of Radiance
Hybrid at-will 1: Winged Horde
Hybrid encounter 1: Thunder of Judgment
Hybrid daily 1: Silent Malediction
Hybrid utility 2: Shield
Hybrid encounter 3: Maze of Mirrors
Hybrid daily 5: Visions of Avarice
Hybrid utility 6: Demand Justice
Hybrid encounter 7: Twist of Space
Hybrid daily 9: Mirage Arcana
Hybrid utility 10: Illusory Wall
Hybrid encounter 13: Seal of the Heretic (replaces Maze of Mirrors)

ITEMS
Accurate orb of Heightened Imposition +3, Shimmering Githweave Armor +3, Accurate orb of Nimble Thoughts +1, Resplendent Cloak +3, Symbol of Victory +2
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


level 30

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Invoker_Wizard, level 30
Deva, Wizard/Invoker, Flame of Hope, Soul of the World
Covenant Manifestation Option: Manifestation of Wrath
Hybrid Invoker Option: Hybrid Invoker Reflex
Hybrid Talent Option: Arcane Implement Mastery
Arcane Implement Mastery Option: Orb of Imposition
Knowledge of Ancient Lives Option: Knowledge of Ancient Lives (Warlord)
Past Spirit Option: Past Spirit (Tiefling)
Past Spirit Option: Past Spirit (Drow)
Auspicious Birth (Auspicious Birth Benefit)
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 12, CON 14, DEX 10, INT 28, WIS 28, CHA 14
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 10, CON 12, DEX 8, INT 16, WIS 16, CHA 12
 
 
AC: 43 Fort: 41 Ref: 43 Will: 45
HP: 154 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 38
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +35, Insight +29, Religion +35
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +15, Athletics +16, Bluff +17, Diplomacy +17, Dungeoneering +24, Endurance +17, Heal +24, History +30, Intimidate +17, Nature +24, Perception +30, Stealth +20, Streetwise +17, Thievery +15
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Deva Racial Power: Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes
Wizard Utility: Ghost Sound
Wizard Utility: Light
Wizard Utility: Mage Hand
Wizard Utility: Prestidigitation
Orb of Imposition  Power: Orb of Imposition
Cleric Utility: Healing Word
Tiefling Racial Power: Infernal Wrath
Drow Racial Power: Cloud of Darkness
Invoker Attack 1: Hand of Radiance
Wizard Attack 1: Freezing Burst
Wizard Utility 2: Shield
Invoker Utility 6: Demand Justice
Warlord Utility 6: Reorient the Axis
Wizard Utility 10: Illusory Wall
Flame of Hope Attack 11: Numinous Cascade
Flame of Hope Utility 12: Blinding Ward
Invoker Attack 13: Seal of the Heretic
Insight Utility 16: Insightful Riposte
Invoker Attack 19: Forced Submission
Flame of Hope Attack 20: Sunburst Bulwark
Warlord Utility 22: Rush of Battle
Wizard Attack 23: Chain Lightning
Wizard Attack 25: Prismatic Spray
Soul of the World Utility 26: Past Life Manifestation
Wizard Attack 27: Impenetrable Gloom
Wizard Attack 29: Visions of Wrath
 
FEATS
Level 1: Unarmored Agility
Level 2: Battle Intuition
Level 4: Orb Expertise
Level 6: Superior Implement Training (Accurate orb)
Level 8: Enlarge Spell
Level 10: Hybrid Talent
Level 11: Initiate of the Faith
Level 12: Spell Focus
Level 14: Staff Expertise
Level 16: Improved Defenses
Level 20: Skill Power
Level 21: Dispater's Iron Discipline
Level 21: Superior Initiative
Level 22: Royal Command of Asmodeus
Level 24: Lolth Blessed
Level 26: Epic Fortitude
Level 28: Quickened Spellcasting
Level 30: Arcane Familiar
 
ITEMS
Accurate orb of Heightened Imposition +6 x1
Symbol of Victory +2 x1
Cunning Quarterstaff +6 x1
Opal Ring of Remembrance (epic tier) x1
Circlet of Arkhosia (epic tier) x1
Zephyr Boots (epic tier) x1
Belt of the Witch King (paragon tier) x1
Robe of Eyes Mindpatterned Armor +6 x1
Ring of Free Time (epic tier) x1
Many-Fingered Gloves (paragon tier) x1
Greater Ring of Invisibility (epic tier) x1
Curse Eye Tattoo (heroic tier) x1
Cloak of Distortion +5 x1
Bracers of Mental Might (heroic tier) x1
Siberys Shard of the Mage (epic tier)
Accurate orb of Nimble Thoughts +4
====== End ======



iplay4e(with dnd4e file)
Paragon Tactics

A reasonably straightforward Wizard|Invoker who concentrates on the following things:
Going first
Starting a party nova with an action point
Severely penalizing saves for enemies in a way that it helps the entire party.

Cleric is really just for the Holy Symbol slot. Assuming he gets a critical hit at some point, he gets an action point to be spent later.

Basically, this is what happens:
He goes first(high initiative)
Spends an action point and uses Seal of the Heretic - he has a +Int bonus to hit(for him and the rest of the party until start of turn on the targets)
Uses a Daily of his choice on the targets he used Seal of the Heretic on. He has +Int to hit and they're likely at -5 or -7 or worse to saves(I haven't gone through and found all the penalty to save items). All his Dailies involve the targets having extraordinarily hard difficulty in being able to act.
On his next round, he extends Seal of the Heretic with the special property of his Orb.

If all goes well, the party nukes the living daylights out those 3 targets. Note that this is really the only way to pull the stunt with Seal of the Heretic that I'm doing - you need the Wrath rider option and Orb of Imposition to make it work.


Epic Tactics

New things start to show up throughout Epic due to his Epic Destiny. Namely, he qualifies as a Tiefling and a Drow..
Royal Crown of Asmodeus = Stun -> Dominate
Greater Ring of Invisibility+Cloud of Darkness means he's effectively invisible for a significant percentage of combats or gaining constant CA.
Dispater's Iron Discipline = +Int to all saves vs. Dominate, Daze, and Stun. Crown of Arkhosia = make a save at the start of your turn. This is effectively near-immunity to those effects. This might even be valuable enough to move up to sooner.
(more posts to talk about things)
(now ok to post)
NICE!  This build made me fall for invokers btw.  I updated your submission thread name/link to this one.  Can't wait!
I'm still working out the exact details of Secrets of Belial and Knowledge of Ancient Lives. He'll likely retrain Time Stop into Quickening Order as an example.
This... is really good.

Solid defenses through the early stages of its career (L+14 AC is OK with me for ranged operators), great powers to choose from, defining 'trick'/element, better utilities than a straight invoker, Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes, etc... Feat progression is solid...

Other than possibly adapting power selection to  varying tastes, there's really nothing I see that would improve the build at all. This one is really well put together.

I like it a LOT.
For items, a familiar with a staff of defence might be good to switch that orb after you roll the initiative. 
Also, Warp in the Weave, the Lv 7 encounter utility might be good go grab, since you don't have many HP anyway and spend an HS to ignore damages from one area attack and its annoying effects is another way to keey you rocking.
This... is really good.

Solid defenses through the early stages of its career (L+14 AC is OK with me for ranged operators), great powers to choose from, defining 'trick'/element, better utilities than a straight invoker, Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes, etc... Feat progression is solid...

Other than possibly adapting power selection to  varying tastes, there's really nothing I see that would improve the build at all. This one is really well put together.

I like it a LOT.



Thanks! I like how it fits all together. Now I just need to figure out what I want for that 'pick any other class and be able to retrain powers into it' trick. I'm looking for the really killer utility powers primarily.

For items, a familiar with a staff of defence might be good to switch that orb after you roll the initiative.  
Also, Warp in the Weave, the Lv 7 encounter utility might be good go grab, since you don't have many HP anyway and spend an HS to ignore damages from one area attack and its annoying effects is another way to keey you rocking.




The character generally needs 2 orbs - the initiative one, the heightened imposition one, and then finally carries a Cunning Staff for the save penalties.

Warp in the Weave isn't anywhere near as good as Demand Justice for this build. Even when something gets lucky, I can force it to reroll...
Maybe another orb of Karmic resonance and inescapable force (both lowest level) in case? There would be no daily power limit after essential anyway.
Warp in the Weave is a defensive power and skill power, so it only costs one feat and does not auto kick out Demand Justice.
Well, colour me impressed. I'm gonna have to second Auspex's comments.
A Beginners Primer to CharOp. Archmage's Ascension - The Wizard's Handbook. Let the Hammer Fall: Dwarf Warpriest/Tactical Warpriest/Indomitable Champion, a Defending Leader. Requiem for Dissent: Cleric/Fighter/Paragon of Victory Melee Leader Ko te manu e kai i te miro, nona te ngahere. Ko te manu e kai i te matauranga e, nano te ao katoa. It's the proliferation of people who think the rules are more important than what the rules are meant to accomplish. - Dedekine
This build looks *really" good.  Love the synergies of the two 'best' controller classes.

As for tweaks to give this build a darker twist, I'd strongly recommend taking the Infernal Malediction feat after you get the tiefling past life.   This is one of only two undisputed ways that I'm aware to add the fear keyword to your power/s.  (The other way is Rod of Dread... you might as well carry a +2 Rod of Dread for the magic item daily as well that you can swap in with your Arcane Familiar as a free action (you did pick Rakshasa's Claw didn't you?)).  

If you had another feat to spare (which I doubt) Wrathful Magic could give you a more proactive way to expend your Infernal Wrath too (you simply have to miss with an arcane power).  Now you've just become the penultimate alpha striker and lockdown controller.  Make sure to use your Infernal Wrath before employing a save ends daily.  Swap out your cloak of distortion for a lvl 22 +5 Talisman of Terror.  Targets of your fear powers now take a -3 penalty to all their saves.  You could also swap the Circlet of Arkhosia for a level 5 skull mask.  Now the same targets have a cumulative -5 penalty to their saving throws.  This on top of your Heightened Orb of Imposition and Seal of the Heretic.  Terror Ichor reagent can add a further -2 penalty to the targets' saves.  

Optionally, a lvl 18 Ring of Sorrows would give you and your allies an extra +1 to hit with fear powers plus a dazing magic item daily.  You could also precede your attack by expending a lvl 13 Drums of Panic magic item daily to gain a sustainable +2 to hit and damage with your fear powers.  The latter two items are probably overkill though.  Between your elf and deva racials your not likely to miss with your save ends powers.

I'm not sure I'd pick Flame of Hope if going the Infernal Malediction route, but it's action point ability is really good.  Thoughts? 
Why Fire Shroud? Seems not to fit the control the rest of the build gives you.
I agree with sadistic fishing and reraise: not taking illusion wall at level 10 is really a pity.

Except for this, great build. Simple but very effective. Divine classes synergize very well with wizard, as for gelatineous octahedron cleric|wiz

Chauntea/Lathander/Torm Cleric since 1995 My husband married a DM - καλὸς καὶ ἀγαθός

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/14.jpg)

Thanks!

Okay, modified a few things:
Picked up Infernal Malediction and got rid of Secrets of Belial - with the ability to pick a class to steal powers from, not especially necessary to have the Secrets feat.

Circlet of Arkhosia is just too amazing to give up - I can auto-save against Daze, Stun, or Domination at the start of every turn. I can't save against all of them at once, but a DM is going to be very hard pressed to keep me from being able to take some kind of action. From a pure control optimization standpoint, I probably should have a phrenic crown. But the Circlet from a practical standpoint? That's hard to beat, especially given that Wizards is likely to continue to release Invoker powers that offer the chance to be Dazed or Stunned by using a power(and not balanced against the ability to just save against it)

Retrained Time Stop to Rush of Battle. That + Action Point is just insane Nova potential - +8 or +9 to hit with all attacks, make basic attacks as minor action. Whatever was just standing there won't be.

Illusion Wall, given it is a Standard Action to use, I'm not sold on that compared to Wizard's Escape. I'd like to have a couple of 'hey, stop that' powers to get me out of trouble.

Retrained Fire Shroud to Maze of Mirrors.

Love the build, I'm playing something extremely similar in LFR.  Just hit 13th and it's really coming together.

possibilities

1) bump arcane familiar to an earlier slot for Rakshasa claw shenanigans, possibly push back second implement.

2) with the new arcane familiar feat, add in a couple (or 3 or 4) +1 orbs of mental constitution (swap your will save for your AC and/or Fort as an immediate interrupt, gravy is +5 item bonus to endurance).  For me that meant I skipped unarmored agility for quite a while.  The DM has to work REALLY hard to get me.

3) instead of second implement: orb of deception pick up tome of readiness and add in improved tome of readiness.  I then 3rd adding in Illusionary Wall only now it's an encounter power.  Typically each encounter I'll throw up the wall (possibly made larger with a cheap architect's staff, yay rakshasa claw!!) as a pillbox where myself and other ranged can comfortably sit back and blast away with perma CA since the enemies can't see anything but a Steel wall 8 (or 10 or more).  for improved ToR possibly drop Danger sense, yes you'd run a risk of rolling poorly, but wha'ts life without risk! 

Great build!!!
A couple more thoughts (variations to the theme).  Once you get those lvl 24 Zephyr Boots you should retrain the level 16 Fly Utility.  

You *might* consider swapping Orb of Deception (you already get bunches of rerolls and are pretty accurate) with Tome of Readiness and squeeze in the Improved Tome of Readiness feat.  This could get you that Illusory Wall as an encounter power and block line of sight (one way) against all ranged attacks every encounter.  Could effectively replace your cloak of distortion.  Edit: ninja'd by faradhii

If you wanted more healing goodness you could pick up Blessing of Corellon feat for an extra Healing Word per encounter.  Warlord's Banner (lvl 16 utility encounter power) could grant allies a healing surge in close burst 5 and boost to attack rolls as a standard action for a minor nova.

Alternatively, if you wanted even more accuracy you could take a multiclass rogue feat (suggest Twilight Adept since you qualify) and then take Sneaky Accuracy at the expense of your healing word/symbol of victory.  Now every time you land one of those enlarged AoE spells and use Elven Accuracy against all your targets with Elven Arcane Precision, you get Elven Accuracy back if you miss any of those opponents a second time.  Requires Combat Advantage though (which you could probably get from Illusory Wall).  Niche stuff, but fun.

One thing I found about Fire Shroud, it's one of the only (possibly THE only?) save ends encounter powers.  In early paragon that means you'll typically apply about a -4 to 8ish save mod to all the targets without blowing any resources other than static mods.  While 5 ongoing isn't THAT much, it does add up when applied to 3 or more targets via enlarge spell who eat it for 3+ rounds because they can't save.
One thing I found about Fire Shroud, it's one of the only (possibly THE only?) save ends encounter powers.  In early paragon that means you'll typically apply about a -4 to 8ish save mod to all the targets without blowing any resources other than static mods.  While 5 ongoing isn't THAT much, it does add up when applied to 3 or more targets via enlarge spell who eat it for 3+ rounds because they can't save.

Save Ends encounter powers ARE rare.  I put in a "save ends" query in the demo DDI Compendium and only saw about a dozen pop up (based on level of powers), including the Invoker's lvl 7 Word of Fiery Condemnation.  Nothing else for wizards or invokers though...
Save Ends encounter powers ARE rare.  I put in a "save ends" query in the demo DDI Compendium and only saw about a dozen pop up (based on level of powers), including the Invoker's lvl 7 Word of Fiery Condemnation.  Nothing else for wizards or invokers though...



Planeshifter's Sequester is encounter save end. Just to point out.

About illusion wall yes it's a standard action. But it is really game changing. Pop out in the middle of the battlefield and watch ranged losing 3-4 rounds trying to hit you.

Chauntea/Lathander/Torm Cleric since 1995 My husband married a DM - καλὸς καὶ ἀγαθός

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/14.jpg)

Phiarlan Phantamist and Divine Oracle might prove a better choice for the Paragon path due to Mind Fire's invaluable save lock applications, and Terrifying Insight's assurance that any attacks vs Will (such as your Seal of the Heretic) will nearly always succeed.
Phiarlan Phantamist and Divine Oracle might prove a better choice for the Paragon path due to Mind Fire's invaluable save lock applications, and Terrifying Insight's assurance that any attacks vs Will (such as your Seal of the Heretic) will nearly always succeed.



Unless you're in a very strange situation, the Action Point feature of Flame of Hope will give you a higher to much higher chance of hitting than Divine Oracle's trick. An example of this is let's say after feats, IoH needs an 11 to hit - given the general focus on being able to hit, an 11 is actually a little bit strange. At 21st level, the build gets +8 to hit with that action point. So that hits on a 3. Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes means that if I roll a 2, I effectively rolled at least an 11, more of an average of about 13-14. My one concern is rolling a 1.

Even if I do roll a 1, all that means is that I don't get to do some damage and impose a save penalty. My allies still get the full blown +8 to hit until the start of my next turn. Sure, I need to spend an action point and it only lasts for a round. But in effect, I give my entire party a chance to Nova every time I do. If it is the typical party of 5, that's 5 rounds worth of boom stacked in the 1st round as opposed to me getting 2 attack rolls over say 6-7 rounds.

The only real problem is that by spending my action point, I'm likely turning the combat into a 2-3 round combat and maybe I won't get a chance to crit.
Yes, I'm aware Flame of Hope grants a larger, potentially more accurate nova.

The advantage of Terrifying Insight is that it's more consistent (you drop it for every single attack vs Will), and it gives you two chances of a critical, as well as making natural 1s essentially impossible (1 in 400 chance). Further, the moment you need only to roll a 5 or better to hit, Terrifying Insight becomes more accurate (at least when it comes to your personal chance to hit), because the probability of missing with it is 4% vs IAA's 5%. Applying Memories (non-enhanced) to Terrifying Insight in this case drops the miss probability to ~1.5%. The biggest appeal of FoH is really that it benefits your allies.

Beyond that, the rest of Divine Oracle's features and powers are just flat out better than the Flame of Hope's by and large (yes, I realize its L20 is underwhelming).


Phiarlan Phantasmist in the meanwhile is solid throughout. Even if you don't have a lot of illusion powers to make use of Phase-Mist Shroud, just pick up Wild Talent Master from Dark Sun, and spam Psionic Image each round as a minor to trigger it.
The biggest appeal of FoH is really that it benefits your allies.



Yes. Seriously. Why penalize all saves at -5 to hit if you're not going to try to really stack save end penalties on your targets? Divine Oracle isn't even in the same ballpark here unless you're talking non-practical optimization where you assume your allies are worthless.
Just about everything Divine Oracle has to offer is better than Flame of Hope. Yeah, Flame of Hope has a great nova benefit for your allies, but in virtually every other way and in virtually every other respect, Divine Oracle is superior.

Essentially it comes down to this: a considerable burst of accuracy for your allies (for you it usually won't matter so much vis a vis Terrifying Insight as demonstrated above) on a single round once every two encounters or up to once every encounter, versus superior accuracy for yourself all or at least the vast majority of the time, and markedly superior L11 and L12 PP powers, and features; IAA is the one and only thing that makes Flame of Hope even a contender.

To me, it's a no brainer unless my allies have potentially powerful novas yet struggle with inaccuracy, and even then it's debatable.


And Mindfire's -2 no strings attached penalty to saving throws against most (save ends) powers you'll want to lay down is of course superb for a savelocking orbizard, with the rest of the PP being solid.
I have to agree with illusionary wall.  Prob the best controller utility power in the game.  Think 3d as the handbook suggests.
Just about everything Divine Oracle has to offer is better than Flame of Hope. Yeah, Flame of Hope has a great nova benefit for your allies, but in virtually every other way and in virtually every other respect, Divine Oracle is superior.



And that's why I consider Flame of Hope superior for this build. Seal of the Heretic with a penalty to all saves is about setting up a Nova round for the party. I'm optimizing around setting up that Nova round for the party, not the ability to be consistent across the entire combat.

Also, remember, the action point ability is gained at 11th, not 16th. That too is huge from a real world practical sense - many games simply don't go to 30th. Divine Oracle's ability might work every combat, but it isn't working for 5 of the maybe 20 levels that Flame of Hope's does.

Beyond that, I think we just have to agree to disagree. I'd never take Divine Oracle over Flame of Hope for a build like this and the Phiarlan Phantasmist is just a solid Eberron restricted paragon path that really doesn't compare to either of them.
I have to agree with illusionary wall.  Prob the best controller utility power in the game.  Think 3d as the handbook suggests.



Yeah, I just don't like that standard action part. But I probably should take it anyway.

(edit: okay, swapped it in) 
Divine Oracle's L11 features are pretty damned impressive as well;  party immunity to surprise and rerolling initiative is seriously sweet, and its action point feature is decent. It also has party nova capabilities with Good Omens by L12 albeit at the expense of crits and a standard action admittedly. If you want to play leader and go with a party nova optimizing schtick, sure, Flame of Hope may be the better choice, but overall, Divine Oracle just can't be beat for this build if one's looking for general performance.

As for Phiarlan Phantasmist, for builds emphasizing save locking, it's definitely the PP of choice (-2 on virtually every save you dish, no strings attached all the time forever), and Mindfire hits play as soon as L11.
If you want to...go with a party nova optimizing schtick, sure, Flame of Hope may be the better choice.



Yes. And that's why I'm not considering your paragon paths. Now please stop posting about them. Thanks.


Yes. And that's why I'm not considering your paragon paths. Now please stop posting about them. Thanks.



Lol, someone's all uppity and snappish today; I'll post about what I please. Thanks.
Okay, you're on ignore...
3) instead of second implement: orb of deception pick up tome of readiness and add in improved tome of readiness.  I then 3rd adding in Illusionary Wall only now it's an encounter power.  Typically each encounter I'll throw up the wall (possibly made larger with a cheap architect's staff, yay rakshasa claw!!) as a pillbox where myself and other ranged can comfortably sit back and blast away with perma CA since the enemies can't see anything but a Steel wall 8 (or 10 or more).  for improved ToR possibly drop Danger sense, yes you'd run a risk of rolling poorly, but wha'ts life without risk! 



Hmm, how does Improved Tome of Readiness work for the build in the first place - that requires a spellbook and Hybrid Wizards lose that class feature.

Also, Danger Sense is really just a placeholder for Superior Initiative.
3) instead of second implement: orb of deception pick up tome of readiness and add in improved tome of readiness.  I then 3rd adding in Illusionary Wall only now it's an encounter power.  Typically each encounter I'll throw up the wall (possibly made larger with a cheap architect's staff, yay rakshasa claw!!) as a pillbox where myself and other ranged can comfortably sit back and blast away with perma CA since the enemies can't see anything but a Steel wall 8 (or 10 or more).  for improved ToR possibly drop Danger sense, yes you'd run a risk of rolling poorly, but wha'ts life without risk! 



Hmm, how does Improved Tome of Readiness work for the build in the first place - that requires a spellbook and Hybrid Wizards lose that class feature.

Also, Danger Sense is really just a placeholder for Superior Initiative.



Good question...  Will CB allow you to take Tome of readiness to start out with as a hybrid.  I'll have to try it in CB.  My character is a Wizard MC Invoker/Hammer of Vengeance.

Well, under Hybrid wizard class traits, it lists Tomes as implements, so far so good.

And strikeout.  Hybrid talent only allows orb of imposition, Staff of Defense, wand of accuracy.  No Tome of readiness.

well, nice to know single class has a perk I guess.

I think that's just an error with Compendium. It does list Tome as a possibility down below. Which isn't a problem, because Tome of Readiness doesn't actually use your spellbook(and it was listed as an option in CB). But Improved Tome of Readiness lets you pick from your spellbook.

Which you don't actually have. One of those feats where it makes no sense for a hybrid to take it. 
Divine Oracle is an awesome Paragon Path.

For this build, however, it's not even in the same ballpark as Flame of Hope.

FoH's AP feature is FAR from the only selling point with that PP. Every feature is very strong, the 11E is good,  the 12U is good, 12U is strong, and 20D is awesome.

One of the traps with DO's 16F is that using it with a multi attack is a good way to spend a lot of time dazed. While your hit chance per target increases, your overall chance to miss at least once in a turn goes up with each target you add. Personally, I hate being Dazed.
Divine Oracle is an awesome Paragon Path.

For this build, however, it's not even in the same ballpark as Flame of Hope.

FoH's AP feature is FAR from the only selling point with that PP. Every feature is very strong, the 11E is good,  the 12U is good, 12U is strong, and 20D is awesome.

One of the traps with DO's 16F is that using it with a multi attack is a good way to spend a lot of time dazed. While your hit chance per target increases, your overall chance to miss at least once in a turn goes up with each target you add. Personally, I hate being Dazed.



I couldn't disagree more.

Enduring Hope is okay, _maybe_ good, but is clearly inferior to Foresight.

IAA obviously beats Prophetic Action but given the former is why you pick the PP, that's expected. The latter is nonetheless solid.

Righteous Resurgence is for an L16 feature under-whelming, and slightly better for builds that improve Second Wind, and/or its action economy. Terrifying Insight is obviously awesome, and the primary attraction.

When it comes to powers, Flame's L11 is okay; 'good' is a definite exaggeration. Divine Oracle's L11 is however great for obvious reasons, particularly in epic.

Flame's L12 utility? For a daily power, okay, nothing truly exceptional or impressive. Divine Oracle's L12 utility? Again, great.

Flame's L20 power? Good. I wouldn't call it 'great' given how powerful the top tier of L20 Paragon Path powers are, and this ain't even close, though I suppose the argument could be made that it is amongst the bottom of the top; to call it 'awesome' is just flat out exaggeration. Of course, this is the Divine Oracle's only true weak point.

So in summary, you have a paragon path that is mediocre to run of the mill with the exception of its Action Point feature, whereas with Divine Oracle, you have one of the best Paragon Paths in the game which is all-round solid.

As for the risk of self-dazing, this is a build focused on accuracy, and between Insight's rerolls and the Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes while attacking NADs, the odds of triggering it are essentially negligible. Furthermore, in the unlikely event you _do_ get dinged with it, there are a multitude of items that'll save you which you'll probably have/want to use anyways.
You very effectively communicated that you disagree with Auspex and MwaO's evaluation of FoH.

You failed, however, to clarify why you disagree. Your point-by-point comparison is a list of your evaluations of each feature of each PP, but you don't include your reasoning behind any of the evaluations.

You have made clear that the standard by which you measure material is very different from the one Auspex and MwaO are using, but I can't quite tell how exactly it's different.
Why do I disagree? One needs only do the most cursory research and comparison between each of these features and powers. As a whole the Flame of Hope's tend to be more situational and less effective than the Divine Oracle's. Good Omens, Terrifying Insight, Foresight and Prophecy of Doom are all obviously better than their FoH counterparts, some to the point that I am genuinely amazed you would accuse me of failing to clarify (and perhaps technically I didn't, but seriously, looking at these powers and features vis a vis is one truly needed?). The debate really begins and ends at whether or not the FoH's action point feature is worth losing every other edge the Divine Oracle affords, and there are plenty.

While I did not waste my time with a point by point breakdown of most and my specific reasons for their ratings (with Terrifying Insight I feel I gave a fairly thoroughly analysis), I honestly feel it's so obvious as to not be worth elaboration; if you cannot see why, for example, a slightly situational feature with a useful but minor benefit like Enduring Hope is markedly inferior to something overwhelmingly awesome for a L11 PP feature like Foresight, I cannot help but feel that the char op forum may not be the place for you, no offense intended.
protip: when you say "no offense intended" after your screed, everyone knows you actually meant offense.
Is there any other way to get action points as 1/encounter without Adroit Explorer?

(Hm, IIRC there's a (Warlord?) paragon path that lets you give your AP to someone else - have your party leader take that.)
Sign In to post comments