So many dead gods *sad panda* :(

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You know, recently reading into 4e Faerun I am by and large positvely excited. Even tho many destroyed realms to the south are kinda sad, I knew them only barely, sticking mostly to computer games until recently.

But what I positively miss are all those old gods, and sorry but those "new" gods are speak not to me at all. There are so many missing divine aspects which are just not really covered, and many cool and interesting gods are gone or absorbed. In this case WotC just did a bad job IMO. Here are some highlights of gods I really want to see back:

- Lathander: Sorry but Amanauthor just doesn't do. I liked the positive attitude of the Morninglord way more than the stern lawful Sun God we have now. Lathander had something youthful, optimistic, and not the aspect of a supreme judge.

- Mask: Where is the god of thieves? How can a world live without a trickster god of thieves??

- Helm & Tyr: I just don't feel with Torm. Again, Helm and Tyr were gods I could "feel", who felt kinda inspiring, but Torm, I connect nothing with him. Watchful Helm and honorable Tyr just were cool gods.

- Ellistrae: I am just profoundly shocked over her death. For me as a good-Drow-fan, Ellistrae was always of the greatest importance, and no Corellian just does NOT do! He was the one who curses the Drow and now the good Darkelves are under his domain? NO FRIGGING WAY.

- Mystra: Last but not least. Yes it makes the sense of the Spellplague, but for me Mystra was always some sort of benevolent goddess of pulling strings, with Mystras chosen who helped the good cause of the Realms. Via Elminster and others. Now Elminster is mad, Khelban is dead and the Chosen of Mystra are all but faded away. Even if Mystra returning would not have the same power over magic as before, maybe more a goddess of "heroes" and "civilization" or so.


I miss these gods. And yes you can say, we can make our own setting where they still live, you just get it pushed into your face in any official material that they don't. I prefer the official settings and seriously request WotC to bring them back. I always felt that too much god-dying never was a good thing, and IMO one of the weak spots of D&D. I kinda prefer my gods to be... well gods. Who just stay in power. Maybe kill one or two over a LONG period of time as some sort of exciting story, yes, but this is way too much.

No, elven high magic and Corellon having to go along with the will of his followers was what cursed the drow, and he hasn't been depicted as particularly hating them since, Demihuman Deities for example notes that there are a few drow in his clergy. So yes, Corellon taking care of the good drow makes perfect sense and is as it should have been all along. Eilistraee was a pointless failure of a goddess that did nothing to get the good drow to actually be elves and just let the matriarchy continue. Glad she's gone.


I'd be annoyed that you forgot Vhaeraun, but I maintain that he isn't dead anyway. You did forget Selvetarm and Kiaransalee though.


I'm annoyed that Rilifane Rallathil is STILL missing. They haven't said he's dead to my knowledge, but they haven't said anything about him being alive either.


But yeah, the whole 'People are too stupid to deal with more than three gods, let's kill a bunch of them' annoys the hell out of me.


 

It's spelled Corellon Larethian, not Correlon, Correllon, Correlllon, Corellion, Correlian or any other way of getting it wrong. I'm a total grognard and I still play 4E.
for the first and last time. The Chronomancer faked his death with a clone so many centuries ago and has been watching in the background as Mystra's chosen have been doing their goddess's work. Having gone from Aethiest to a Silvanus worshiper, he went foward in time and watched it all happen.

sneaking back in the past, he hides 4 enclaves and later warns HAlruua to hide and where.
Halruua wasn't destroyed, they got out of the place 8 months before the plague and now live within it inhabiting 4 netherese enclaves.

4 enclaves of Halruuans verses two enclaves of shade....



and Eilistraee isn't dead, she just gave up her divinity and they key word in that book is Feigned death.

I ne'er liked Tyr or Torm so.....


oh wait, this is fan ficed......

its your realms, if you want Helm back, than Helm never died.
a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....

In my realms, the Crown Wars never happened and the elves still rule Faerun.


I'd need to *have* a Realms first, but.

It's spelled Corellon Larethian, not Correlon, Correllon, Correlllon, Corellion, Correlian or any other way of getting it wrong. I'm a total grognard and I still play 4E.
I wish that all of the Gods would just die in their own feces...

I say get rid of them all, make the designers kill something else for once...;)

HAND OF KARSUS!

 

 

Mask was absorbed by Shar, but his Chosen are still around, infused with his divine essence, so in a sense hes still around.

Also Brandobaris, Erevan, and Baravar are still very much alive.
I survived Section 4 and all I got was this lousy sig Off-topic and going downhill from there
The positive side is that bringing one or more of these back could make for an interesting Epic tier campaign.

I plan, at some point, to run 1E's classic D1-D3/Q1 series as part of campaign to see Eilistraee returned and Lolth (possibly) slain (with Shar potentially taking up the slack... or Graz'zt). (And, IMC, Eilistraee is the Maiden of the Moon in the Feywild: an archfey but no longer a deity.)

In a similar way, why not have a campaign to "off" Amaunator? I've always viewed Amaunator as a closet tyrant. Maybe this side of his nature becomes more pronounced and your campaign becomes about finding a way to restore Lathander so the tyrant part of his nature dies.

(All that said, I am also thinking about going back to the FR of 1372 DR with the multitude of deities and maps that do not suck. In the meantime, I'm getting some value out of the 4E setting while I get a solid handle on the rules.)
Cheers Imruphel aka Scrivener of Doom
Imruphel...you are--by far--the epitomy of all that is right and wrong with FR these days.

Taco?
Well, still haven't properly edited my photos yet, so this is what we get. People!! The current status of these boards: POP ON!
Hoar is still around!
I'd love to see the character updated with details for Hoar (and the rest of the FR pantheon who have been left out). Would make for an excellent Dragon article as well.

-Cal 
You know, recently reading into 4e Faerun I am by and large positvely excited. Even tho many destroyed realms to the south are kinda sad, I knew them only barely, sticking mostly to computer games until recently.

But what I positively miss are all those old gods, and sorry but those "new" gods are speak not to me at all. There are so many missing divine aspects which are just not really covered, and many cool and interesting gods are gone or absorbed. In this case WotC just did a bad job IMO. Here are some highlights of gods I really want to see back:

- Lathander: Sorry but Amanauthor just doesn't do. I liked the positive attitude of the Morninglord way more than the stern lawful Sun God we have now. Lathander had something youthful, optimistic, and not the aspect of a supreme judge.

- Mask: Where is the god of thieves? How can a world live without a trickster god of thieves??

- Helm & Tyr: I just don't feel with Torm. Again, Helm and Tyr were gods I could "feel", who felt kinda inspiring, but Torm, I connect nothing with him. Watchful Helm and honorable Tyr just were cool gods.

- Ellistrae: I am just profoundly shocked over her death. For me as a good-Drow-fan, Ellistrae was always of the greatest importance, and no Corellian just does NOT do! He was the one who curses the Drow and now the good Darkelves are under his domain? NO FRIGGING WAY.

- Mystra: Last but not least. Yes it makes the sense of the Spellplague, but for me Mystra was always some sort of benevolent goddess of pulling strings, with Mystras chosen who helped the good cause of the Realms. Via Elminster and others. Now Elminster is mad, Khelban is dead and the Chosen of Mystra are all but faded away. Even if Mystra returning would not have the same power over magic as before, maybe more a goddess of "heroes" and "civilization" or so.


I miss these gods. And yes you can say, we can make our own setting where they still live, you just get it pushed into your face in any official material that they don't. I prefer the official settings and seriously request WotC to bring them back. I always felt that too much god-dying never was a good thing, and IMO one of the weak spots of D&D. I kinda prefer my gods to be... well gods. Who just stay in power. Maybe kill one or two over a LONG period of time as some sort of exciting story, yes, but this is way too much.



The last paragraph is the problem. Nothing is stopping you from bringing them back if it suits the needs of your campaign. I don't view FR lore as set in stone, and I usually have to remind PCs familiar with the setting that it's ultimately the DM's world.

Imruphel...you are--by far--the epitomy of all that is right and wrong with FR these days.

Taco?



Thank you... I think. ;)
Cheers Imruphel aka Scrivener of Doom
Of course realmslore is not written in stone tablets, but there are many things about these deaths that should be considered at least "annoying"...
When they are strongly story-driven they are acceptable and even fun, since they lead to more potential storyline ideas. Helm killed by Tyr who after commits suicide out of guilt is great, the whole "Lathander thing", bearing some kind of Aumaunator seed that comes back to his true identity was suggested in late 3.5ed material and was creative...

What I consider to be an ugly work, is what WotC has done to a lot of "lesser" deities. I had an half acquatic elf once who worshipped Eldath. Dead. Better, wiped out. As all the others you mentioned before.

And, the one that bothers me most, Mystra. Shar wanted her dead, as well as Cyric, everyone in the multiverse knew that. The end seemed almost obvious. But it's obvious as well that the purpose of her death was to re-shape the world to fit the new 4th edition rule's set, and not the other way around.
WotC is a company which does business in order to earn money, I get that. They establish what kind of product has to be sold to maximize the money, I get that too.
But to have a new set of rules made for teenagers kill a Deity and emasculate an entire realm, obliterating meanwhile the concept of "Wizard" born long ago with D&D... THIS is really crappy...
Eldath isn't dead. She is an archfey. She  resides in the Moonsheas.
She is no longer a deity though. Those who 'worship' her are now likely primal characters, or receive any divine powers from another deity.

Gomez
Where have you found these news about Eldath?
Short answer:
DDI FR article on the realm of Sarifal in the Moonshaes.

A little more at length (& in my own words):
Eldath is considered a primal spirit of Toril in 4e mechanical terminology, as is Nobanion.  Lurue is considered an archfey tied to the feywild (as some hope or suspect Eilistraee has become).  This can have as much or as little effect on your game as you like.

Source is the Realmslore: Sarifal article on the Moonshaes.

"Oft featured in song, Myrloch is a large
freshwater lake; its 800 square miles are deep, cold,
and clear. ...man-made islands on the loch, called
crannógs. ...these small islands
served as shrines to the lake spirit Eldath. A hand-
ful of crannóg remain today, preserved by nereids in
service to Sarifal."

The entire thread:
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

OP:
There are so many missing divine aspects which are just not really covered, and many cool and interesting gods are gone or absorbed.

The examples above of deities being reinterpreted as different types of entities sets a certain amount of precedent for similar treatment of other unmetioned deities.  And....If you are wanting to follow canon, technically it says many gods are "dead, gone, or missing"...which means your answering of the questions on your own is practically written into canon itself.  None of that will necessarily make you feel better, especially where your favorites are called out as dead and you don't want to change that, but just pointing it out for the possible benefit of the "canonical equations" part of the brain. 
Thanks a lot Marius!
I'm expecting Mask's return in Kemp's upcoming trilogy, so I'm not worried there.


As for the others, I really, really hate Torm. Switch Helm and Torm in that whole thing, and I'd be fine. :P


And I still want an article with info about Shaundakul. Even if he's just an archfey who watches over Myth Drannor or some such.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
I'm expecting Mask's return in Kemp's upcoming trilogy, so I'm not worried there.



I agree with that completely.

I do not miss mystra at all - maybe I just have "Chosen Overload".  I like the new darker Realms.  Don't need super heroes running around all over the place.

Anyway, it is your game - bring them all back!
Or wait for teh 5th edition when Mystra is back!!
Wink

_________________________________________________________

How Big is YOUR brave?

I'm expecting Mask's return in Kemp's upcoming trilogy, so I'm not worried there.


As for the others, I really, really hate Torm. Switch Helm and Torm in that whole thing, and I'd be fine. :P


And I still want an article with info about Shaundakul. Even if he's just an archfey who watches over Myth Drannor or some such.


Isn't there that tripartite diety theory/blasphemy where the three gods of justice and protection stuff were rumored to be one (Tyr/Helm/Torm)??  That could be tapped into.  Yeah, I was also a bit surprised that it was Torm who was left standing.  Hrmph.  But I guess they needed a do-goody paladin god....no wait, they kept Bahamut too.  Hehe.  (No offense to Tormites.  In fact, here's a piece of wood.  It's on me. )

As for Shaundakul as an archfey...watching over Myth Drannor even.....I was thinking something along those lines in regards to helping integrate non-elves into Corellon's church.  If Corellon was the one who saved Shaundakul during/after the spellplague and helped him become an archfey it could be highly symbolic among mortals of his acknowledgment/reaching out to non-elves.
I'm expecting Mask's return in Kemp's upcoming trilogy, so I'm not worried there.


As for the others, I really, really hate Torm. Switch Helm and Torm in that whole thing, and I'd be fine. :P


And I still want an article with info about Shaundakul. Even if he's just an archfey who watches over Myth Drannor or some such.


Isn't there that tripartite diety theory/blasphemy where the three gods of justice and protection stuff were rumored to be one (Tyr/Helm/Torm)??  That could be tapped into.  Yeah, I was also a bit surprised that it was Torm who was left standing.  Hrmph.  But I guess they needed a do-goody paladin god....no wait, they kept Bahamut too.  Hehe.  (No offense to Tormites.  In fact, here's a piece of wood.  It's on me. )

As for Shaundakul as an archfey...watching over Myth Drannor even.....I was thinking something along those lines in regards to helping integrate non-elves into Corellon's church.  If Corellon was the one who saved Shaundakul during/after the spellplague and helped him become an archfey it could be highly symbolic among mortals of his acknowledgment/reaching out to non-elves.



The three gods thing is from an article by Eric Scott De Bie, if that helps. Don't remember the name of the article off the top of my head, but it's quite a good read.

We need an article for characters to be able to worship archfey in a manner similar to gods.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
What seems clear to me is that WoTC has no idea how to run something as complex as D&D.  TSR had, if anything, too many campaign settings and expansion packs, which diluted the brand.  But, for people who enjoyed running a world with various complexities, the Realms was the place to go. 

Dragonlance was an easy world to run (albeit boring).  Why did the Realms gain popularity over the years?  It wasn't because it had too many deities.  Dungeon Masters have, and always will have, the ability to make the gods as important or uninvolved as they wish in their campaigns. 

I started playing D&D when the 1E/2E switch was underway, and I found nothing complex at all about the deities.  My first character ever was a priest, and the most challenging thing I had to learn was to which spheres a deity granted access.  Whether or not a deity/demigod was an aspect of a greater power never bothered me as a player, or as a DM.  If a player wanted to play a PC who worshipped one of the gods, I could accommodate that.  To me, the "restrictions" placed on players with certain deities made character development more rich.  One of my best players had great fun trying to play a character who worshipped Eldath.  Being so non-violent that you use a net as your primary weapon was challenging.  Lecturing others to "try not to hurt the goblins too much" got everybody laughing (including this DM) but he played that character to the hilt.  Some people played a fighter that didn't really worship any god, and they usually picked Tempus as their patron deity.  They just tossed a copper piece in his temples whenever they happened upon one, and that was the extent of their involvement with the gods.

The problem with 4E is that the removed the choices from the books, and more importantly, from the characters.  Yes, we can (and my group does) use the 3E books extensively. 

For those who are interested, in Ed Greenwood's personal campaign (he created the FR setting for those who don't know) he hasn't even reached the Time of Troubles yet. 

One thing seems clear: the Realms cannot exist as the Realms without Mystra and the Weave.  You're creating a totally different game and calling it "Forgotten Realms" to get people to buy it.  Tossing in a few names that people know doesn't make it the Realms.  WoTC may own the legal rights to what is or is not published under the D&D brand, but I'm not wasting any money on another set of books that ruin a campaign setting both me and my players have loved for over two decades. 

All of that aside: switching to 4E requires you to jump your campaign ahead 100 years... that doesn't bode well for any of your characters who happen to be playing humans.  The switch to 2E made characters choose between sticking with worshipping Bane/Bhaal/Myrkul or switching to Cyric.  For people to whom this was an important choice, it had ramifications.  For most players, they didn't care that any gods had died; especially not evil ones.  3E brought in Kelemvor, and another choice was required.  These important (yet small) changes made the Realms grow, but in a way that could be incorporated into a campaign slowly, and without a lot of impact on the stories and adventures being run.  I felt the editors carefully sculpted and created a newer, better Realms.

The fourth edition was done by a blind, deaf, one-armed, one-legged man with a machete, and what was left was offered up as "here you go.  Welcome to the new Forgotten Realms." 

For my part, my campaign will never reach the Spellplague.  For those who choose to embrace it, great.  But I'm not letting WoTC rain on my parade.
At this point, it's been quite a while since the 4E Realms changes were put in place.  For those of us who don't recognize the Realms in this new form, there are choices.  The biggest one is this:  if you don't like the changes, don't buy it.  I bought the 4E FRCG and was so dissatisfied that I eventually returned it to the store.

And frankly, I don't think it's "fixable" at this point unless they say this 4E Realms thing never happened (and that's not at all likely).  So I have to be content with the things I did like about 1E, 2E and 3E.

It's unfortunate, but thems the breaks.
At this point, it's been quite a while since the 4E Realms changes were put in place.  For those of us who don't recognize the Realms in this new form, there are choices.  The biggest one is this:  if you don't like the changes, don't buy it.  I bought the 4E FRCG and was so dissatisfied that I eventually returned it to the store.

And frankly, I don't think it's "fixable" at this point unless they say this 4E Realms thing never happened (and that's not at all likely).  So I have to be content with the things I did like about 1E, 2E and 3E.

It's unfortunate, but thems the breaks.

100% Agreed.
This. Although I still refuse to admit that Vhaeraun is dead, even in 4E FR. :P He's just waiting.
It's spelled Corellon Larethian, not Correlon, Correllon, Correlllon, Corellion, Correlian or any other way of getting it wrong. I'm a total grognard and I still play 4E.
This. Although I still refuse to admit that Vhaeraun is dead, even in 4E FR. :P He's just waiting.

That's the spirit! (no pun intended)
One thing seems clear: the Realms cannot exist as the Realms without Mystra and the Weave.  You're creating a totally different game and calling it "Forgotten Realms" to get people to buy it.  Tossing in a few names that people know doesn't make it the Realms.  WoTC may own the legal rights to what is or is not published under the D&D brand, but I'm not wasting any money on another set of books that ruin a campaign setting both me and my players have loved for over two decades



One thing Ed Greenwood's always been clear on is that it has always been completely possible that everything anyone "knows" about the gods could be completely wrong. Ed has dropped hints in his own campaign for years that all the gods are just aspects of a single supreme being, along with several other possibilities. Ed did this to avoid offending anyone's religious sensibilities as well as to allow for changes. Mostly its been used since 4e as a way to say "Mystra isn't really dead".

For me, I like to use it as a way to say the Mystra and the weave business never actually applied. That was what Mystra told people was going on, and people bought it.
"One arrow alone can be easily broken, but Many-Arrows is indestructible."
One thing seems clear: the Realms cannot exist as the Realms without Mystra and the Weave.  You're creating a totally different game and calling it "Forgotten Realms" to get people to buy it.  Tossing in a few names that people know doesn't make it the Realms.  WoTC may own the legal rights to what is or is not published under the D&D brand, but I'm not wasting any money on another set of books that ruin a campaign setting both me and my players have loved for over two decades



One thing Ed Greenwood's always been clear on is that it has always been completely possible that everything anyone "knows" about the gods could be completely wrong. Ed has dropped hints in his own campaign for years that all the gods are just aspects of a single supreme being, along with several other possibilities. Ed did this to avoid offending anyone's religious sensibilities as well as to allow for changes. Mostly its been used since 4e as a way to say "Mystra isn't really dead".

For me, I like to use it as a way to say the Mystra and the weave business never actually applied. That was what Mystra told people was going on, and people bought it.

Interesting, because that doesn't seem to go with what I read in a response from Ed on the Candlekeep forums from several years ago.  I'll have to find the link and post it.
Hey, I got it from something the Hooded One said in the "Ask Ed" thread a week or so ago. Maybe old Ed's a bit like George Lucas; always changing his mind.
"One arrow alone can be easily broken, but Many-Arrows is indestructible."
One thing: Switching editions doesn't require updating the realms. you can play a 4e game with 3e fluff.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
You can play a Pathfinder game using the 1E Fluff.

HAND OF KARSUS!

 

 

I wonder wehther what Ed thinks and what the WotC design team thinks are the same thing.


Just look at how elminster is presnted in the 4th ed FRCG, and then how he is presnted in the novel (ok, I only read teh first chapter, I am waiting for the soft cover before I really read it), and the messages in that same novel vs. the continuing claim by WotC that Mystra is really, really, very dead (something I myself actually had stated in one RPGA adventure, so pot/kettle, etc).


Anyway, I have been told repeatedly that they won't bring back dead gods. I know that the unspoken second sentence is 'until we change our mind'. And, in the end, I did break that rule (if only because RPGA adventures are no longer 'canon').


But I'll be sure to talk to some people at Gencon this august (I'm going, woot!).


Gomez

Why not ask Ed yourself?  Head over to www.candlekeep.com/ and click on "Forums."  You'll find "Questions for Ed" easily, and can post things to him accordingly.

Ed is too professional to answer such questions other than in the most polite and evasive way.


I am just musing.


Gomez

Ed never answers questions covered by an NDA... but he's incredibly nice, and very much interested in providing his insight to Realms players and DMs alike.  I've received some amazing insights from him on all sorts of subjects.  As long as you don't stray into NDA, he might reply.  I doubt Ed will comment on his relationship with WoTC directly, but he will probably comment on specific topics if you ask him. 

Just a suggestion.
Where by NDA you mean?
I hope fans of Helm are reading my Shadowbane novels.

Because for serious: Helm.

Downshadow alone made Matt James (something of a Helm fan) run screaming around the hotel at GenCon when he read it.

I'm eagerly anticipating his reaction to the next novel (conveniently entitled Shadowbane). It's a whole thing.

Cheers
By Helm its out??
a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
By Helm its out??

September, good sir. September.

Though knowing me, there will of course be lots of teasers and tie-ins and stuff to tease your appetite before the book itself is available.

Cheers

By Helm!!!!!

a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
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