Conjuration, Summoning, Pet rules?

27 posts / 0 new
Last post
I've done some searches here, and come up with almost nothing (Not real impressed with the search functionality).

However, I have seen people seeming to quote rules about conjuration and/or summoning.

Does anyone know where these rules can be found? My group is constantly plagued by questions about what applies to a summoned creature, or can a conjuration be attacked? If so, how many hitpoitns does it have, etc.

We play at a game shop and they have most books available and I can't find these rules clarified there.
PHB2 has the summoning and conjurations keyword rules, p.220-221. They're probably in the DDI compendium too.
Indeed, PHB 2 and PHB3 p216 - 218 is the place to look for.
Some quick tips to keep in mind:
- Conjurations can't be attacked unless the power states otherwise.
- Summoned creatures have half of the HP of the summoner(bloodied value).
- The Summoned creature uses the summoner's statistics minus any temporary bonus. (so if an attack in the summoned creature block states INT, use the inteligence bonus from the summoner.)
- Summoned creatures don't have action points, although the summoner can spend an action point and use the standard action to make the summoned creature attack. Keep in mind bonus from warlords and other source that trigger on spending an action point do not affect the summoned creature's attack bonus, because of the temporary bonus rule.
- Powers and effects that affect the summoned creature(as an ally of the party or an enemy of the monsters) apply to the attack and damage of the creature, so if an artificer uses the power Magic Weapon and chooses to grant the bonus to attack roll to the summoned creature, the bonus apply only to the creature's attack, not the summone's attack.
- The summoned creature has any/all the basic attacks the summoner has, so if a warlord grants a basic attack to the summoned creature, the creature can use Magic Missile, as it is a basic attack, if it is present in the summoner's list of powers.

cheers Nakajima "Not all beholders are evil. It depends on the number of eyes. So always be sure to count them before attacking one."

- The summoned creature has any/all the basic attacks the summoner has, so if a warlord grants a basic attack to the summoned creature, the creature can use Magic Missile, as it is a basic attack, if it is present in the summoner's list of powers.


Whoa whoa whoa, what?!  Where did that come from?

As far as I know, a summoned creature has no attacks whatsoever, other than the ones specifically mentioned in the power's description.

Indeed, the exclusive list of actions that are available to all summoned creatures is this: crawl, escape, fly, open or close a door or a container, pick up or drop an item, run, stand up, shift, squeeze, or walk.

They literally cannot do anything else unless their power description says they can.
If your position is that the official rules don't matter, or that house rules can fix everything, please don't bother posting in forums about the official rules. To do so is a waste of everyone's time.













 Subject
Summoned creatures and actions
 
 Discussion Thread
 Response (Support Agent)09/09/2010 12:24 PM
Hello again Miguel,

We're happy to help answer these follow up questions!

- As the Summoned creature can be given an attack by a warlord, what is the creature's basic attack? Is it the attack listed on the summoning power block?
Answer: It would be the same as the summoner's melee basic attack unless it has a melee basic attack listed on the summoned creature.

- Can the summoned creature be the target of beneficial spells, such as the Warlock's "Hellsworm Blessing" and the Artificer's "Magic Weapon"?
Answer: Yes. Since both of those spells target a friendly ally specifically.

Please let me know if you need anymore help!


Online Response Crew
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada)
425-204-8069 (From all other countries)
Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST
Saturday-Sunday 10am-4pm PST / 1pm-7pm EST


 Customer09/09/2010 12:14 PM
>
> - As the Summoned creature can be given an attack by a warlord, what is the
creature's basic attack? Is it the attack listed on the summoning power
block?
- Can the summoned creature be the target of beneficial spells, such as the
Warlock's "Hellsworm Blessing" and the Artificer's "Magic Weapon"?
cheers
Nakajima

>
 Response (Support Agent)09/09/2010 12:00 PM
Hello Miguel,

Thank you for contacting us. I found the answer to your question in the Player's Handbook 3 rules for Summoned creatures.

"SUMMONED CREATURE
A creature you summon uses these rules, unless a power description says otherwise.
• Allied Creature: When you use a summoning power, you create a creature that is an ally to you and your allies. The power determines where the summoned creature appears.
• Your Defenses: The summoned creature’s defenses equal yours when you summon it, not including any temporary bonuses or penalties.
• Hit Points: The summoned creature’s maximum hit points equal your bloodied value. When the summoned creature drops to 0 hit points, it is destroyed, and you lose a healing surge. If you have no healing surges left, you instead take damage equal to half your bloodied value.
• No Healing Surges: The summoned creature lacks healing surges, but if a power allows it to spend a healing surge, you can spend a healing surge for it. The summoned creature, rather than you, then gains the benefit of the healing surge.
• Speed: The summoning power determines the summoned creature’s speed.
• Commanding the Creature: The summoned creature has no actions of its own; you spend actions to command it mentally. You can command the creature only if you have line of effect to it. When you command the creature, the two of you share knowledge but not senses.
As a minor action, you can command the summoned creature to take one of the following actions, if it is physically capable of taking that action: crawl, escape, fly, open or close a door or a container, pick up or drop an item, run, stand up, shift, squeeze, or walk. The summoning power determines any special commands you can give the summoned creature and gives an action type for each command. If a special command is a minor action, you can give that command only once during each of your turns.
• Attacks and Checks: If a summoning power allows the summoned creature to attack, you make an attack through the creature, as specified in the power description. If the summoned creature can make a skill check or an ability check, you make the check. Attacks and checks you make through the creature do not include temporary bonuses or penalties to your statistics.
• Duration: Unless the summoning power states otherwise, the summoned creature lasts until the end of the encounter and then disappears. As a minor action, you can dismiss the summoned creature."

- Is a summoned creature considered when determining flanking?
Answer: Since it is considered in ally, it will help help you with flanking.
- Does the summoned creature get the bonus for Combat Advantage?(if the target is flanked or dazed or any other situation that grants combat advantage)
Answer: Yes.
- If there's a Tactical Warlord in the party and the wizard who summoned the creature spends an action point, does the creature's attack get the bonus given by the warlord?
Answer: No. Because of the rules for Attacks and Checks: "Attacks and checks you make through the creature do not include temporary bonuses or penalties to your statistics." The warlord's bonus is considered a temporary bonus.
- What about if the Wizard is a human with the Action Surge feat, does the creature's attack get the +3 provided by the feat?
Answer: Again, no. For the same reason stated in the previous answer.
-If a warlord uses a power that grants a basic attack to the wizard, can he attack using the summoned creature?
Answer: No. You can use your actions to make your summoned creature attack but you cannot give an attack granted to your character to your summoned creature.
- Can the warlord grant an attack to the summoned creature?(as an example,by designating the creature as the target of the power Direct the Strike)
Answer: Yes. Since the summoned creature is your ally.


Online Response Crew
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada)
425-204-8069 (From all other countries)
Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST
Saturday-Sunday 10am-4pm PST / 1pm-7pm EST


cheers Nakajima "Not all beholders are evil. It depends on the number of eyes. So always be sure to count them before attacking one."
Okay, first, I don't think that's correct.  There is nothing in the rules that indicates anything of the sort.

BUT even if for the sake of arguement I accept the Customer Service response, he did say that the creature's basic attack "would be the same as the summoner's melee basic attack."

So you cannot use magic missile in either case.  Magic missile is a ranged basic attack.
If your position is that the official rules don't matter, or that house rules can fix everything, please don't bother posting in forums about the official rules. To do so is a waste of everyone's time.
I also don't agree with the CS ruling of the creature's basic attack.
Even so, if the CS response is right(and as you said and I agree: there's no indication of such rule) then a hybrid wizard|paladin with the power of skill could Valiant Strike the opponent

EDIT: I rule that the summoned creature's basic attack is the one listed in the power card
cheers Nakajima "Not all beholders are evil. It depends on the number of eyes. So always be sure to count them before attacking one."
I wrote CS to find out how they could justify their answer to your question.  Here is how it went.

Query: Someone just quoted on the message boards a Customer Service response that indicated that a summoned creature's basic attack is the same as the summoner's melee basic attack. Can you please indicate where in the rules I would find such a thing?  {I go on to point out the relevant passage in the summoning rules.}

Answer: 
Sorry for the confusion. Summoned creatures are only able to use the attacks listed in their power description unless another source allows them a separate form of attack.

If your position is that the official rules don't matter, or that house rules can fix everything, please don't bother posting in forums about the official rules. To do so is a waste of everyone's time.
So, if a warlord granted a basic attack to the summoned creature, it would perform the attack listed in the power description, right?
cheers Nakajima "Not all beholders are evil. It depends on the number of eyes. So always be sure to count them before attacking one."
So, if a warlord granted a basic attack to the summoned creature, it would perform the attack listed in the power description, right?


If that attack is a basic attack, then yes.  However, the few that I looked at don't have any attacks listed as "basic attack", so you may be out of luck.

Returned from hiatus; getting up to speed on 5e rules lawyering.

So, what are they(the attacks listed in the summoning power description)?
Remeber that the Grease power did't originally have an at-will grease attack that it now has.
So, is the attack intended to be considered a basic attack?(nothing written says it does)
Is it an encounter power? Is it a daily(as most of the summoning powers are daily powers?)
Or is it a 'no-power'?
cheers Nakajima "Not all beholders are evil. It depends on the number of eyes. So always be sure to count them before attacking one."
Attacks listed for a summoned creature on their power card would be effectively encounter powers if they say something to the effect of "once per encounter" but unless the power explicitly puts a limit on their use, they can be used at-will.

However, they are not at-will powers, encounter powers, or melee basic attacks (unless specifically noted). "No-power" is the best description. Abilities that interact with an at-will power or encounter power don't apply to them, and a Warlord trying to give it a free basic attack should pick someone else.
...and that's the news from Lake 4th Edition, where the Gnomes are strong, the Half-Orcs are good-looking, and all the PCs are above average.
I just thought of an example -- the druid's summon savage tiger.  In its instinctive effect, it says the tiger charges, using its attack as a melee basic attack.  If the standard attack always counted as an MBA, they would not have to stipulate that in the instinctinve effect.

I don't think it was ever intended that warlords and summoned creatures should interact in the way you want.  They already get a lot of benefits just by virtue of counting as allies.  But their standard action attacks are usually a little too powerful to be allowed as melee basics.
If your position is that the official rules don't matter, or that house rules can fix everything, please don't bother posting in forums about the official rules. To do so is a waste of everyone's time.
Remeber that the Grease power did't originally have an at-will grease attack that it now has.

And it still doesn't.  The Grease power hasn't been updated to include an at-will attack, in fact it the update explicitly isn't one.  The compendium/CB has formatting that isn't correct for many powers because they reformat them to have any additional attacks as a seperate power card.  If you use the grease attack of the grease power, you are attacking with a daily power, not an at-will power, even if you can use it more than once.  (See the rules updates for the correct version of Grease.)

If you have a summoned creature attack, you are attacking with a daily power.  (That's not to say it's the same as "using" a daily power.)
@FitzNighteyes: So, if I miss with the summoned creature's attack, would it be considered "missing every target with a daily power/attack" for feats and powers that trigger in these cases?
cheers Nakajima "Not all beholders are evil. It depends on the number of eyes. So always be sure to count them before attacking one."
Sure.  As as they don't say anything about using it.  For example, it wouldn't trigger: You use a daily power and miss every target."  (Which is really how most of them should be worded.)  If they say: you attack with a daily power and miss every target ... yes, it'll trigger.
Lets take another example. Summon Hellhound, level 9

Standard Action: Close blast 3; targets each creature in blast; Intelligence vs. Reflex; 2d6 + Intelligence modifier fire damage.


So, is the power there an arcane power?
Is it a fire power?
If so, does it count as a close power for you?
And if so, at that point, does a level 10 essentials pyromancer get a puppie that can breath close bast 3 that leave a zone of your con mod?
Or is it the puppy's con mod (+3 in this case)?
Does he get the bonus for Hellfire arcanist or hellfire blood?

Lets take another example. Summon Hellhound, level 9

Standard Action: Close blast 3; targets each creature in blast; Intelligence vs. Reflex; 2d6 + Intelligence modifier fire damage.


So, is the power there an arcane power?



The overall power is an arcane power, so yes.


Is it a fire power?



It does fire damage, yes.  The power says so.  The power also has the fire keyword.



If so, does it count as a close power for you?



It is a close power, yes.  The only big difference is that it originates from the summon's square and not yours.



And if so, at that point, does a level 10 essentials pyromancer get a puppie that can breath close bast 3 that leave a zone of your con mod?



The wizard makes the attack through the summon.  The rules are very clear on this.  So anything that would grant you a bonus on making a close or fire attack might apply, depending on the specifics of how the feature in question is worded.  I'm not sure what you mean by pyromancer, but note that the essentials wizard evocation features only work with spells that have the evocation keyword, which this power doesn't have.


Or is it the puppy's con mod (+3 in this case)?



The hellhound doesn't have a con mod.  It's a summon.  When it needs to make checks, the wizard makes the check for it.  This is in the summoning keyword.


Does he get the bonus for Hellfire arcanist or hellfire blood?




Hellfire arcanist yes, I can't find the feat description for hellfire blood.

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

obligatory link to the pyromancer thread, which has the link to the pyromancer doc.

Does he get the bonus for Hellfire arcanist or hellfire blood?



Yes for Hellfire Blood. It has the fire keyword, so it applies.
cheers Nakajima "Not all beholders are evil. It depends on the number of eyes. So always be sure to count them before attacking one."
Sorry for dragging this up, but I'm curious about the hellfire arcanist part.  Its a "+2 feat bonus to damage rolls on fire attacks".  You are using a power with the fire keyword, but does it consider it your attack for the purpose of giving it the bonus?  I would think that it would, but I'm not 100% sure.
Sorry for dragging this up, but I'm curious about the hellfire arcanist part.  Its a "+2 feat bonus to damage rolls on fire attacks".  You are using a power with the fire keyword, but does it consider it your attack for the purpose of giving it the bonus?  I would think that it would, but I'm not 100% sure.

Yes, a "fire attack" is any attack with the "fire" keyword.

Ok, one more targeting question.  The lvl 5 daily magma beast has an ongoing effect on hit (5 ongoing and slowed).  Is that considered an effect that I create for the purpose of my abilities?  Reason I ask is Icy Clutch of Stygia.  It reads that "whenever an enemy saves against ongoing damage that you imposed..."  So would it count as me imposing the ongoing or would that originate from the beast?
Say a wizard conjured an orb Must he have line of sight on it to keep manipulating it?
Say a wizard conjured an orb Must he have line of sight on it to keep manipulating it?

Old thread necro (this could have just gone in the simple questions thread)

For any movable conjuration, you must maintain line of effect but not line of sight.
If at the end of your (the creator's) turn, at least one square of the conjuration is not within the power's range and also with line of effect to the creator, then the conjuration ends.

If the Conjuration cannot be moved (like a wall spell), then neither line of effect nor line of sight is needed and it exists until dismissed, the creator dies, or 5 minutes pass.
   However, if the conjuration can attack making attack rolls, line of sight is determined from the creator's square unless the conjuration power specifies otherwise, such as for the Shaman's Spirit companion.



What happens with powers like "Faces of the fallen" if my SC (or both of them) are destroyed? Or to rephrase myself, can such powers end before the end of the encounter?

Chole1983 wrote:

What happens with powers like "Faces of the fallen" if my SC (or both of them) are destroyed? Or to rephrase myself, can such powers end before the end of the encounter?

 

Faces of the Fallen would continue to function if your Spirit Companion is destroyed or dismissed and then resummoned because it does not specify that it ends if your Spirit Companion is destroyed or dismissed.

  Compare it to Call Forth the Spirit World, which specifies the zone ends in that case

Call Forth the Spirit World

Daily        Fear, Healing, Primal, Spirit, Zone
Minor Action      Close burst spirit 3

Effect: The burst becomes a zone until the end of your next turn or until your spirit companion is destroyed. The zone moves with the spirit companion, remaining centered on its space. Enemies within the zone take a -2 penalty to attack rolls. Any bloodied ally that starts its turn within the zone regains 5 hit points.

Sustain Minor: The effect persists.