9/15/2010 TD: "Version 2.0"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Top Decks Article, which goes live Thursday morning on magicthegathering.com.
Bwuh?
Very efficient card against fast decks. This will see play.
Excellent re-imagining.

I doubt I'll be playing it, but this card seems destined to frustrate quality one and two drops everywhere.

My planned Koth-based mono-red just ran into a serious road block. One charge wipes goblin guides, two wipes dragonlords.

Very interesting, control loves this. 
"R Bomb your R Bomb."
this Bomb is slightly better than the other "ticking clock cards" (back in the days of Armagedon Clock) because you can "tick" it when you want and choose to hold it. There is one way to knock this, by the opponent using proliferate counters to push you past your mark "over-clocking, he, he" (particularly past the 4 mark for all those hot walkers). I think they really want to see "all artifact" decks this round, again, the mention of All is Dust, just begs to sit in an all Myr (oh yeah, we're clear) deck.

Looking at other spoilers, the new Argentum Armor has "Annailate" without the keyword... another ouch for Myrs to gang up with Eldrazi.
Uhh...did Flores really miss the key difference of Part 1?  He talks about the problem of keeping it tapped, but what about the fact that it's now far more subject to artifact/permanent removal?  With Powder Keg, if it's at 2 counters, and my opponent responds to the adding counter trigger with a Disenchant, at least I can still pop it for 2.  But now, if it's at 2 counters, and my opponent casts Naturalize, I just lose the bomb.  That seems like a lot worse than "not insignificant."  It seems like it fundamentally alters your ability to play the card, except perhaps in a metagame where only specific CMCs matter.  That doesn't make the card bad, but it does seem to significanlty impair the cards' reliability. 
All is forgotten in the stone halls of the dead. These are the rooms of ruin where the spiders spin and the great circuits fall quiet, one by one.
"It had a powerful card-drawing enchantment that did nothing but spawn new archetypes for as long as it was legal to play in Yawgmoth's Agenda."

Actually, it was Yawgmoth's Bargain.
Uhh...did Flores really miss the key difference of Part 1?  He talks about the problem of keeping it tapped, but what about the fact that it's now far more subject to artifact/permanent removal?  With Powder Keg, if it's at 2 counters, and my opponent responds to the adding counter trigger with a Disenchant, at least I can still pop it for 2.  But now, if it's at 2 counters, and my opponent casts Naturalize, I just lose the bomb.  That seems like a lot worse than "not insignificant."  It seems like it fundamentally alters your ability to play the card, except perhaps in a metagame where only specific CMCs matter.  That doesn't make the card bad, but it does seem to significanlty impair the cards' reliability. 



Ah yes!

I also wanted to point out that not being able to hit Mishra's Factory and friends can also be significant Smile
I too noticed the major issue of an opponent being able to destroy the card while it is tapped.  However, you can use a Voltaic Key to untap it if necessary (although you lose the key at that point). 
IMAGE(http://pwp.wizards.com/1205820039/Scorecards/Landscape.png)
If nothing else, it'll get played simply because it's colorless global removal of any kind, which - in these latter days without the Disk or even Oblivion Stone - is rather thin on the ground outside All is Dust. And All is Dust, while useful, is seven mana.

The mention of Voltaic Key is notable since the Bomb plays very nice with the Key, all the various 'add charge counter' cards, Power Conduit, and so forth. In Standard alone I think it'll be interesting since you won't necessarily lose the Key if you're aiming to kill an opponent's Jace or something.
Flores seems to imply that Ratchet is slower, which is incorrect.

Having to tap it to get a counter makes it vulnerable to artifact removal, but situations in which all of the following are true should be rather uncommon:
1. Your opponent has instant speed artifact removal.
2. You want to clear the board of nonland permanents with cmc X.
3. You want to clear the board of nonland permanents with cmc X+1.
4. You would rather do 3. than 2.

Keg destroys artifact lands and animated lands which Ratchet does not. But Ratchet hits planeswalkers and enchantments which seems more important in standard.

I predict it will primarily be an anti-token (and therefore anti-Chalice and anti-Mox) card.  Building up to X > 0 will take too long and be too risky.  Which means if this is indended as their primary anti-Planeswalker tech, it's a bad trade for O-ring and Pithing Needle.


As for not hitting manlands, I would really like to know if that's an intentional design decision or a "yeah, whatever, who cares" decision by the templating team.  If intentional, it does imply that there will be some artifact land around.  (Though surely not reprints of the original cycle.)

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

Sign me up for 4 copies, please.

~ Tim
I am Blue/White Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D
Sig
56287226 wrote:
190106923 wrote:
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
56957928 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
That makes no sense to me. If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed? ~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch. YAY COLOR IDENTITY
56287226 wrote:
56888618 wrote:
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
56883218 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
56287226 wrote:
56735468 wrote:
And no judge will ever give you a game loss for playing snow covered lands.
I now have a new goal in life. ;)
It was like a million Rhys EDH decks crying out in unison, then suddenly silenced.
As for not hitting manlands, I would really like to know if that's an intentional design decision or a "yeah, whatever, who cares" decision by the templating team.  If intentional, it does imply that there will be some artifact land around.  (Though surely not reprints of the original cycle.)



I think it's the second, "nonland" is the modern template. I bet Hoodwink would read "noncreature permanent" these days and Pernicious Deed "nonland permanents". Makes it easier for new permanent types like Planeswalkers to be included but makes it also easier for manlands or creature enchantments to escape.
Flores seems to imply that Ratchet is slower, which is incorrect.


Well, sort of. If you've put any counters on it recently, then you can't use it at instant speed; you have to wait for your next untap. With Powder Keg, if you would prefer to sacrifice it with two charge counters on it and your opponent Naturalizes it when it only has one counter, at least you can sacrifice it in response and destroy some artifacts or creatures with a CMC of 1. With Ratchet Bomb in the same situation, though, if you tap it to put a counter on it and your opponent Naturalizes it in response, you can't sacrifice it in response to the Naturalize because you already tapped it. So "slower" isn't accurate, but Flores is right that in some cases the tapping trigger will be worse than the upkeep trigger.

However, five cards with proliferate have been printed so far, and I'll be surprised if there aren't any other ways to add charge counters onto permanents as well. (I'm thinking of Power Conduit reprinted from Mirrodin, or something very like it.) I'll bet it won't be too hard to get as many counters on this as you want.

I predict it will primarily be an anti-token (and therefore anti-Chalice and anti-Mox) card.  Building up to X > 0 will take too long and be too risky.  Which means if this is indended as their primary anti-Planeswalker tech, it's a bad trade for O-ring and Pithing Needle.


The best anti-Planeswalker tech seems to be Vampire Hexmage, which isn't artifact, unfortunately. (But then, O-ring is colored too.) I agree; I'm worried too. I use planeswalkers now and then but they really seem to be dominating things.
As for not hitting manlands, I would really like to know if that's an intentional design decision or a "yeah, whatever, who cares" decision by the templating team.  If intentional, it does imply that there will be some artifact land around.  (Though surely not reprints of the original cycle.)


Let's see, if the artifact lands are legendary and come into play tapped, they might not be broken... maybe? Even without affinity and the sacrifice tricks in the original Mirrodin blocks, artifact lands still look like they'd be very powerful. Metalcraft triggered on turn two with just one nonland artifact, sacrificing lands to Shape Anew or the Kuldotha Forgemaster or the Throne of Geth...
As for not hitting manlands, I would really like to know if that's an intentional design decision or a "yeah, whatever, who cares" decision by the templating team.  If intentional, it does imply that there will be some artifact land around.  (Though surely not reprints of the original cycle.)

The templating problem here is that for the card to be both able to destroy manlands and all it can destroy as is, they would have had little choice but to put the word 'Planeswalker' in the rules text, which they still shy away from doing. We could venture that 'walkers are evergreen enough by now for it to happen, but that's not our decision. I guess a weird wording in the lines of "all permanents except those that are lands and no other card type" could have been done, but I don't think it would have been worth it. On the other hand, they could have limited it to creatures, artifacts and enchantments in a Nevinyrral Disk fashion, but I think I prefer to get a new answer to 'walkers than an answer to manlands right now. Just my two cents.

I don't believe this templating choice implies anything per see regarding artifact lands. I still half-expect legendary artifact lands anyway, but the bomb doesn't make it more likely in my mind.
Magic The Gathering DCI Lvl 1 Judge Don't hesitate to post rules question in the Rules Q&A forum for me and other competent advisors to answer : http://community.wizards.com/go/forum/view/75842/134778/Rules_Q38A
I don't believe this templating choice implies anything per see regarding artifact lands. I still half-expect legendary artifact lands anyway, but the bomb doesn't make it more likely in my mind.


I agree, I think "nonland permanent" or "noncreature permanent" or something similar is just the preferred template for this kind of thing these days.

Also, it's hard to destroy manlands; that's the whole point of them, a kind of creature that's resistant to a different kind of removal. They're the only kind of creature that isn't killed by board sweepers (there are exceptions, of course, but speaking generally), and I think Wizards likes having a few cards here and there like that.
Anyone else glad this isn't mythic? You know it's "explosive" enough that they could have made it mythic if they wanted to. (Hopefully the creative team would have given it a more impressive concept in that case.)
I asked on the Rules Q&A. The reason Ratchet Bomb doesn't destroy lands that lands have a converted mana cost of zero, and that prevents this card from destroying lands while it has no charge counters on it.

Xweetoks = ♥Happiness

I asked on the Rules Q&A. The reason Ratchet Bomb doesn't destroy lands that lands have a converted mana cost of zero, and that prevents this card from destroying lands while it has no charge counters on it.


No, it doesn't destroy lands because it specifically says it destroys non-lands perms.
I am also surprised flores missed the weakness to removal aspect of this version.

Still very good though.  I see it getting played pretty much everywhere.  Powder keg and friends are the kind of mass removal you don't mind playing in aggro decks because you can often minimize your own losses while taking out key permanents on your opponent's side.  Will see lots of play.

Just don't get too greedy with it if you suspect your opponent is playing instant speed artifact removal.

Gemstone, either that's some really odd phrasing on your part or you got a bad answer in Q&A.  The reason Ratchet Bomb doesn't destroy lands is because it says "nonland".


What I was pondering was the design decision which led to "nonland permanent" instead of saying "artifacts, creatures, enchantments, and planeswalkers."


put the word 'Planeswalker' in the rules text, which they still shy away from doing.

That's an interesting thought, although I wonder if you realize the implied "...other than reminder text" in your statement.  Have you read Duskdale Wurm for example?  I thought the reason we don't get much direct Planeswalker interaction is because such cards are narrow, not because the word is verboten.  But you may be right.

The best anti-Planeswalker tech seems to be Vampire Hexmage, which isn't artifact, unfortunately.

Well BB is a bad casting cost for a spell right now.  But the problem with Vampire Hexmage isn't that it's colored, but that it's narrow.  Other than a Planeswalker there aren't many other permanents you'd be willing to use a card to take counters off of.  (It can be appropriate off of a level up or an ascension, but you lost a whole card while theirs just slowed down.)  And a 2/1 first strike body is fairly insubstantial right now.

Lightning Bolt is flexible, but it also isn't good enough against most PWs since all but Nissa can get up over 3 loyalty on first use.  Not to mention they got an effect and you only answered the source.  This made Blightning a good anti-PW card too, getting card value plus loyalty removal.  (Not that we need more blightning.)


But I just can't imagine the environment allowing this Ratchet Bomb to be a functional Planeswalker answer.


Them: mountain
Me: forest, Birds of Paradise
Them: mountain, Spawning Breath the birds
Me: forest, Ratchet Bomb, Bomb-> 1
Them: mountain, Koth, power up mountain, attack for 4
Me: forest, Fauna Shaman, Bomb->2
Them: mountain, Burst the shaman, power up mountain, attack for 4
Me: forest, Vengevine, attack Koth, they bolt vengevine.  Bomb->3
them: mountain, Koth adds RRRRR, Kozilek.
Me: forest, Garruk, Leatherback Baloth.  Bomb->4
Them: mountain, koth untaps mountain, Destructive Force.  Attack with Kozilek


Not only do they have 1 mountain, Koth with 3 counters, and a full grip to my empty board and 2 card hand, but oh yeah I'm also dead.  OK yes this was a good hand for red and a weak one for green, but the point is that even playing Ratchet Bomb at the first available chance it's just too slow.


I expect the environment will make me pick them up for tokens as I said earlier, but I really don't see this card getting much big stuff unless the proliferate starts flowing like water.

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.


Gemstone, either that's some really odd phrasing on your part or you got a bad answer in Q&A.  The reason Ratchet Bomb doesn't destroy lands is because it says "nonland".


What I was pondering was the design decision which led to "nonland permanent" instead of saying "artifacts, creatures, enchantments, and planeswalkers."


 




Putting "nonland permanent" takes up less space on a card.  Also, saying "artifacts, creatures, enchantments, and planeswalkers" does allow you to destroy animated "manlands" and any other creature that also happens to be a land by some effect (Life and Limb)

IMAGE(http://pwp.wizards.com/1205820039/Scorecards/Landscape.png)
The interaction with Proliferate will be interesting.  Most are assuming it combines well with Proliferate, but don't assume that is automatic.  Ratchet Bomb destroys everything that cost X, not X or less.  That makes using Proliferate tricky.  In many cases, Proliferate will be a good defense against Ratchet Bomb.  Once there are too many counters, Ratchet Bomb is worthless.
I think Mox Opal is going to hit Jace 2's prices, or close.  Sick card.  Cant wait to play against it....
 

Putting "nonland permanent" takes up less space on a card.  Also, saying "artifacts, creatures, enchantments, and planeswalkers" does allow you to destroy animated "manlands" and any other creature that also happens to be a land by some effect (Life and Limb)



Thank you for rephrasing my original question and then acting like you answered it.

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

 

Putting "nonland permanent" takes up less space on a card.  Also, saying "artifacts, creatures, enchantments, and planeswalkers" does allow you to destroy animated "manlands" and any other creature that also happens to be a land by some effect (Life and Limb)



Thank you for rephrasing my original question and then acting like you answered it.



I was giving two possible reasons for the design question.

I probably should have mentioned in my previous post that having a card like Ratchet Bomb able to destroy animated lands allows people to use it to kill all of the opponents lands if they use a card such as Rude Awakening or Life and Limb.  That seems like it can cause some issues and Wizards is probably trying to prevent the issue.

I could be completely wrong on both of my reasons.

IMAGE(http://pwp.wizards.com/1205820039/Scorecards/Landscape.png)

I was giving two possible reasons for the design question.


Yes, but my whole point in the first place was "Hey, I wonder which of these two reasons was their motivation?"  So when you later responded "well there are two possible reasons..."


You see?  Wink  I know, it's a reply to a reply of a reply, which is the problem with forums, so you may not have realized that's the conversation you were joining.  But surely you can see why it's silly.



I probably should have mentioned in my previous post that having a card like Ratchet Bomb able to destroy animated lands allows people to use it to kill all of the opponents lands if they use a card such as Rude Awakening or Life and Limb.  That seems like it can cause some issues and Wizards is probably trying to prevent the issue.

That's a consideration, but it hasn't stopped them before since a Volcanic Fallout or plenty of other cards would accomplish the same thing.  In fact, that seems like a reasonable counter to an opponent's threat.  It would only be problematic if if there was an easy way to animate your opponent's lands and then wrath.  Emphasis on the "easy."

But to repeat my initial query, I wonder if this was motivated by development or by templating.  If development, why did they feel the need to keep manlands safe?  If templating, changing a card's power just to save a couple syllables sort-of thumbs their nose at the concept of a design process.  (I know they do it, e.g. Borderposts, but it will always seem arbitrary to me.)



If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

I see your point.  I didn't look hard enough for your original question.
IMAGE(http://pwp.wizards.com/1205820039/Scorecards/Landscape.png)
About my previous post on this thread, I would like to say that I should have worded it a whole lot better. I just noticed that some people were wondering why Ratchet Bomb didn't destroy man lands. I was just thinking that if this card could destroy man lands (or any lands) on top of everything else, I suppose the designer's would have thought it too powerful; although it probably could have been worded "Destroy each artifact, creature, enchantment, and planeswalker..." and it probably would have worked out OK. It's my fault for not thinking things through a bit more clearly. (As for what I actually posted, it was an undeveloped thought that best should have been left off the boards. I'm still learning to write well, so hang with me.)

And no, those people on the Rules Q&A were sterling, and had nothing to do with my error.

Xweetoks = ♥Happiness

put the word 'Planeswalker' in the rules text, which they still shy away from doing.

That's an interesting thought, although I wonder if you realize the implied "...other than reminder text" in your statement.  Have you read Duskdale Wurm for example?  I thought the reason we don't get much direct Planeswalker interaction is because such cards are narrow, not because the word is verboten.  But you may be right.



There's an article somewhere on the site (either Making Magic or Latest Developments) where they specifically said that they don't want to print "Destroy planeswalker" because they're worried that people will get upset that they can't destroy a player with it, since they've been pushing the "You are a planeswalker" tagline for Magic. 

Yeah I recall that.  It harkened back memories to Alpha testing when Time Walk said "target player loses next turn."


But even granting that such interpretation is possible, it becomes more of a stretch when "Target planeswalker" becomes "all planeswalkers and artifacts", and even moreso when it's "all planeswalkers with mana cost X".  At some point they need to assuming players aren't idiots.  Now all other things being equal, a little caution on the phrasing is fine.  But when answers start getting powered down, they create the situation of saying "yes I know you keep losing to Jace and Elspeth, and we'd like to help you with that, but we're afraid you don't know we're talking about cards."


Generally speaking, I mean.  I don't have a problem with Ratchet Bomb one way or the other.  I just want to be reassured that the card power is actually the result of the playtesting they keep telling us about and not the result of Mr. Bean accidentally erasing the file and making up something else to cover his tracks.

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

Re: The point on Manlands.

This reminds me of something I realised a little while ago: Journey to Nowhere can exile a Manland, while Oblivion Ring cannot, even though the O-ring has broader targeting criteria. Weird, huh?

~ Tim
I am Blue/White Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D
Sig
56287226 wrote:
190106923 wrote:
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
56957928 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
That makes no sense to me. If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed? ~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch. YAY COLOR IDENTITY
56287226 wrote:
56888618 wrote:
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
56883218 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
56287226 wrote:
56735468 wrote:
And no judge will ever give you a game loss for playing snow covered lands.
I now have a new goal in life. ;)
There's an article somewhere on the site (either Making Magic or Latest Developments) where they specifically said that they don't want to print "Destroy planeswalker" because they're worried that people will get upset that they can't destroy a player with it, since they've been pushing the "You are a planeswalker" tagline for Magic. 


Here's a new card that would resolve the confusion: Psychic Leeching. 2WUB. Instant. Remove all counters from target player or planeswalker. Draw a card and lose a life for each counter removed this way. 

I know MaRo has said many times that he doesn't want poison counters getting removed, but it's not like it would actually appear in this block anyway. Just a fun thought. Remove poison counters, OR get rid of planeswalkers, AND draw cards, maybe lots of them.