New Info on Treasure Parcels in Rules Compendium

599 posts / 0 new
Last post
My FLGS has a copy of the Rules Compendium and I got to look at it for a few minutes. I took that time to get as much info as I could about the new parcel system. Here's what I found out:

1) Wish lists are strongly suggested, as before. It says the player's wish list should consist of the uncommon items he wants. Also, the DM should do his best to give the players useful items that they want, but not feel like they have to give out every single item on a player's list.

2) Like was posted on EN World, there is a table for each level. When making out the parcels, the DM rolls 1d20 and consults the list. The following list was posted by Thalmin at ENW:

For a party level 1
(11-14) 2d6 x 100 sp; (15+) 2d6 x 10 gp
(18+) 1d2 gems worth 100 gp
(20+) one art object worth 250 gp
(13+) one magic item of level 1d4 +1

Whatever number is rolled, the parcel consists of each item on the list of that number or lower. For example: If a 15 were rolled for a parcel, the party would receive 2d6 x 10 gp (15), 2d6 x 10 sp (11-14), and one magic item of level 1d4+1 (13+).

3) When rolling parcels for groups larger or smaller than normal, there is a modifier. For every member of the party past 5, add 2 to the roll; for each member below 5, subtract 2.

4) Magic items are not randomly distributed; rather, players receive a random number of items per level based on the parcel rolls. The actual items players receive, however, are still handled the same as before (DM's choice from wish lists).

5) When a magic item is rolled for a parcel, the parcel roll also determines the item's rarity. I believe it was odd numbers = common, and even numbers = uncommon.


What I did not find out:

1) How rare items are handled. I was skimming and trying not to look like a mooch, so it's possible I overlooked this. It's also possible that rare items are on the level tables at higher levels. I just glanced at the two-page spread of level tables and didn't note whether later levels were structured any different than level one.

2) How many parcels are distributed per level. I didn't even think to look for this. I might go back in a few days and see if I can get another look. I would assume there are 10/level because of the math. A 13 on a d20 is a 40% chance for a magic item. With 10 parcels per level, a party of 5 would receive an average of 4 items per level (same as the old parcel system). A party of 6, with a +2 modifier, would gain a magic item on a roll of 11 or greater. That is a 50% chance. Since 50% out of 10 parcels is an average of 5 items, it works out the same, with a party receiving an amount of items per level equal to the number of members minus one. It works the same regardless of how many members are in the party (up to parties of 11 members and as far down as 1).

3) Whether potions are still anywhere on the tables, if it is assumed they will be bought, or if there is a suggestion for replacing some money with potions.



I think that about covers it. I might can remember something else if anyone can jar my memory, but I think that was all I learned. The Compendium, by the way, felt awesome and was very high quality. Just nine more days and I can get one of my own. Smile
You mean the world isn't going to explode and D&D isn't forever ruined?

To see my campaign world visit http://dnd.chrisnye.net My music -> www.myspace.com/Incarna My music videos -> www.youtube.com/Auticusx
To be fair, there was never any indication that there was a significant risk Essentials would cause the world to explode.





Disclaimer: this post should not be taken as evidence, assurance, or an implied gaurantee of the non-explosive nature of the world.  Live on the world at your own risk.  Wizards of the Coast assumes no liability in the event that the world were to explode, and forum users indemnify and hold harmless Wizards of the Coast from any property, casualty or personal damages that may occur should the world explode while they are playing a game published by Wizards of the Coast.  

Want to see the best of 4e included in 5e?  Join the Old Guard of 4e.

5e really needs something like Wrecan's SARN-FU to support "Theatre of the Mind."

"You want The Tooth?  You can't handle The Tooth!"  - Dahlver-Nar.

"If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly"  - E. Gary Gygax

 

 

Oops, looks like this request tried to create an infinite loop. We do not allow such things here. We are a professional website!

icedcrow's snark aside, I believe that the actual thing he and a few others were arguing about was that they didn't believe it was the only option in the book, and they wouldn't believe that uncommons are uncraftable.  Can you confirm the enworld thread; is this the only option presented (no reference to the old rules) and does it indeed say that uncommon items are uncraftable?
To be fair, there was never any indication that there was a significant risk Essentials would cause the world to explode.





Disclaimer: this post should not be taken as evidence, assurance, or an implied gaurantee of the non-explosive nature of the world.  Live on the world at your own risk.  Wizards of the Coast assumes no liability in the event that the world were to explode, and forum users indemnify and hold harmless Wizards of the Coast from any property, casualty or personal damages that may occur should the world explode while they are playing a game published by Wizards of the Coast.  



love it. I am now convinced the world will explode and Wizards will soon be in court over it.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

icedcrow's snark aside, I believe that the actual thing he and a few others were arguing about was that they didn't believe it was the only option in the book, and they wouldn't believe that uncommons are uncraftable.  Can you confirm the enworld thread; is this the only option presented (no reference to the old rules) and does it indeed say that uncommon items are uncraftable?

Item rarity was discussed in the 'equipment' section, which I only skimmed briefly. I can confirm what Thalmin posted about uncommon items being uncraftable. I thought this was common knowledge now, though. However, the book presents that information as a story element; not as a rule. That is to say, the book did not state, "Uncommon items cannot be crafted by players." Rather, it said (paraphrasing), "The secrets behind crafting such items has been lost in time, maybe even as far back as the Dawn War." This does leave a lot of room the DM's Kit to present the DM with a few options, with the one for 'no crafting uncommons' presented as the default way. This sounds a lot like what was hinted at in the 'Powers, Implements and Feats' preview article.

I can also confirm that the new parcel system is indeed the only one in the book.
so its exactly what we said it was only they force randomness into the rare system

the worst of both worlds


'its optional......options not included Undecided'
To be fair, there was never any indication that there was a significant risk Essentials would cause the world to explode.





Disclaimer: this post should not be taken as evidence, assurance, or an implied gaurantee of the non-explosive nature of the world.  Live on the world at your own risk.  Wizards of the Coast assumes no liability in the event that the world were to explode, and forum users indemnify and hold harmless Wizards of the Coast from any property, casualty or personal damages that may occur should the world explode while they are playing a game published by Wizards of the Coast.  



love it. I am now convinced the world will explode and Wizards will soon be in court over it.

Don't worry, it's optional.  There are 7 other worlds (and one 'dwarf planet' and numerous large moons) you could be living on instead, in this solar system alone!

Want to see the best of 4e included in 5e?  Join the Old Guard of 4e.

5e really needs something like Wrecan's SARN-FU to support "Theatre of the Mind."

"You want The Tooth?  You can't handle The Tooth!"  - Dahlver-Nar.

"If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly"  - E. Gary Gygax

 

 

Oops, looks like this request tried to create an infinite loop. We do not allow such things here. We are a professional website!

icedcrow's snark aside, I believe that the actual thing he and a few others were arguing about was that they didn't believe it was the only option in the book, and they wouldn't believe that uncommons are uncraftable.  Can you confirm the enworld thread; is this the only option presented (no reference to the old rules) and does it indeed say that uncommon items are uncraftable?

Item rarity was discussed in the 'equipment' section, which I only skimmed briefly. I can confirm what Thalmin posted about uncommon items being uncraftable. I thought this was common knowledge now, though. However, the book presents that information as a story element; not as a rule. That is to say, the book did not state, "Uncommon items cannot be crafted by players." Rather, it said (paraphrasing), "The secrets behind crafting such items has been lost in time, maybe even as far back as the Dawn War." This does leave a lot of room the DM's Kit to present the DM with a few options, with the one for 'no crafting uncommons' presented as the default way. This sounds a lot like what was hinted at in the 'Powers, Implements and Feats' preview article.

I can also confirm that the new parcel system is indeed the only one in the book.



Makes sense... I guess we'll see the complete picture when we see the new creation rituals (Create Magic Item, Brew Potion, Transfer Enchantment, etc) and whatever the DM Kit has in its "world economy" or "handling treasure" sections.
so its exactly what we said it was only they force randomness into the rare system

the worst of both worlds

they cant even dignify 'classic' 4e rules with a freaking mention
'its optional......options not included '

Actually, it's nothing like you said it would be. It isn't "lantern world" with players getting completely random items they can't use, being forced to sell them and only being able to spend the money on underpowered items that make little difference. It's actually very close to what we had before, with randomness only affecting how much you get; not exactly what you get. Wish lists are still there and strongly encouraged, and the average amount of items received is the exact same as what players got before. So, it isn't exactly the control-freak DM on a power-trip nightmare you envisioned.
icedcrow's snark aside, I believe that the actual thing he and a few others were arguing about was that they didn't believe it was the only option in the book, and they wouldn't believe that uncommons are uncraftable.  Can you confirm the enworld thread; is this the only option presented (no reference to the old rules) and does it indeed say that uncommon items are uncraftable?



Close.  The actual thing I was saying was that no where in the book would it say that the new system was the only system and that the old parcel system was discontinued (not implied because they didn't reprint it), and that I found it highly unlikely that wishlists were destroyed or told to be gone.

As to what is or is not craftable I have no idea nor do I care, so me not believing that uncommons are craftable or not has any bearing on my argument. 

There is a thread floating around here where I posted my argument in
font like this

for the people who kept rewording it for me.
To see my campaign world visit http://dnd.chrisnye.net My music -> www.myspace.com/Incarna My music videos -> www.youtube.com/Auticusx
Makes sense... I guess we'll see the complete picture when we see the new creation rituals (Create Magic Item, Brew Potion, Transfer Enchantment, etc) and whatever the DM Kit has in its "world economy" or "handling treasure" sections.

I'm going to shoot a PM to willfuqua (he has access to the DM's Kit) and see if he can help put this puzzle together.
so its exactly what we said it was only they force randomness into the rare system

the worst of both worlds

they cant even dignify 'classic' 4e rules with a freaking mention
'its optional......options not included '

Actually, it's nothing like you said it would be. It isn't "lantern world" with players getting completely random items they can't use, being forced to sell them and only being able to spend the money on underpowered items that make little difference. It's actually very close to what we had before, with randomness only affecting how much you get; not exactly what you get. Wish lists are still there and strongly encouraged, and the average amount of items received is the exact same as what players got before. So, it isn't exactly the control-freak DM on a power-trip nightmare you envisioned.



You had better be kidding me!    I was all ready for the random lantern chart!!!  Gah they ruined everything!!    I can't believe they wouldn't give us our power trip back!!! 

    Someone get one of my players in here STAT!  I need to throw my dice at him or her in rage!
To see my campaign world visit http://dnd.chrisnye.net My music -> www.myspace.com/Incarna My music videos -> www.youtube.com/Auticusx
I'm... satisfied with that, I guess is how I'd phrase it.  I'm curious who it was intended to appeal to though...

I was under the impression that you had folks who either liked the system-as-it-was, or folks who didn't like the wish list aspect of the system.  But the wish list aspect is still there in the same capacity (a strong suggestion), and the system-as-it-was isn't included.  It just strikes me as a kind of "middle ground" approach that, while unlikely to aggravate one side or the other too much, really doesn't give either what they wanted from it.

That said, the failure to include the previous (set) parcel system strikes me as a bad choice.  The system-as-it-was is sort of the "Point Buy" to this new system's "Rolled Stats".  I can understand wanting to include the "Rolled Stats" bit, but I don't really see the point of dropping the "Point Buy" aspect.


I foresee this working out the same way for me as rolled treasure did in 3.5 - give out the rolled stuff, then check every level or so to make sure the party is where they should be, and if they're not, adjust accordingly.

That is, if I decided I wanted to use it.  Which, given that I'm now conceptualizing it as "The Rolled Stats of Treasure Handouts", is unlikely to happen.
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
so its exactly what we said it was only they force randomness into the rare system

the worst of both worlds

they cant even dignify 'classic' 4e rules with a freaking mention
'its optional......options not included '

Actually, it's nothing like you said it would be. It isn't "lantern world" with players getting completely random items they can't use, being forced to sell them and only being able to spend the money on underpowered items that make little difference. It's actually very close to what we had before, with randomness only affecting how much you get; not exactly what you get. Wish lists are still there and strongly encouraged, and the average amount of items received is the exact same as what players got before. So, it isn't exactly the control-freak DM on a power-trip nightmare you envisioned.



You had better be kidding me!    I was all ready for the random lantern chart!!!  Gah they ruined everything!!    I can't believe they wouldn't give us our power trip back!!! 

    Someone get one of my players in here STAT!  I need to throw my dice at him or her in rage!



Don't nerd rage yet, wait until you

HAVE THE BOOK IN YOUR HANDS!!!


Funny thing to me about wishlists is not just that I don't use them and no one in my game has asked about them.  But that the other day when picking up the red box I mentioned essentials might be doing away with wish lists, the employee's all of whom play 4e asked what the hell is a wish list.  When I described them, they said.  Really, who the hell plays D&D like that. 

While I am sure it is a big thing to many gamers, there are probably just as many gamers who overlooked the rule or saw it and discarded it as an option and never looked back. 
I have a feeling you are correct.  From my own little predjudiced world, more gamers I know do NOT use wishlists as opposed to the ones that do.
To see my campaign world visit http://dnd.chrisnye.net My music -> www.myspace.com/Incarna My music videos -> www.youtube.com/Auticusx

Close.  The actual thing I was saying was that no where in the book would it say that the new system was the only system and that the old parcel system was discontinued (not implied because they didn't reprint it), and that I found it highly unlikely that wishlists were destroyed or told to be gone.



That's kind of silly.  Can you name a rulebook anywhere for a new version of anything that says something like "You are not allowed to use your old game anymore"?  That's not how you write rulebooks... imagine if every single sentence in 4th edition had to be qualified with "and by the way this is the rule you use, not the one from 3rd edition".  It would be like three times the size it is now.  You don't have to explicitly write "This is the new text and you're not allowed to read the old text" on every line of errata either; it's implied, that since it's errata, it's a set of replacement text.
I'm not going to be baited into another roundabout discussion.  The whole issue was people saying that Essentials was not really OPTIONAL and acting like they had read the rules first hand when they had not, and that the game would be ruined because of the new treasure system being random and killing off wishlists.

There are several dozen threads that you can cull from to read that for yourself.

So... it can be silly to you.  The argument was just as silly to me.
To see my campaign world visit http://dnd.chrisnye.net My music -> www.myspace.com/Incarna My music videos -> www.youtube.com/Auticusx
3) When rolling parcels for groups larger or smaller than normal, there is a modifier. For every member of the party past 5, add 2 to the roll; for each member below 5, subtract 2.

Was party size the only modifier you saw?

4) Magic items are not randomly distributed; rather, players receive a random number of items per level based on the parcel rolls. The actual items players receive, however, are still handled the same as before (DM's choice from wish lists).

So if I end up with players who don't give me a wishlist, I still have to do the work? I am kinda disappoint.
so its exactly what we said it was only they force randomness into the rare system

the worst of both worlds


'its optional......options not included '

This would only be true if WotC took all copies of the DMG out of circulation and also forced current owners to return their copies.  The only people who will be forced to use the new treasure parcel rules are those who don't buy the DMG and don't want to come up with their own treasure distribution method.

I don't think there is any reason to complain here.
Was party size the only modifier you saw?

Yes. If there were any more modifiers, I missed them. There might be more in the DM's Kit.

So if I end up with players who don't give me a wishlist, I still have to do the work?

Yep, just like the previous system.
Yeah, for a random system, it turns out pretty well. Still doesn't mean it wasn't wrong for them to remove the old parcel system in a book that was advertised as being to the go-to rules source.

Its the go-to source, if you want to play by the new Essentials rules.

The one book I thought I'd like out of this line and WoTC had to go replacing rules with it.

-edit-

I think I'm finally burned out on arguing about all of this crap.


me too, im done w it, once they didnt even put the old rules in as an option, theres nothing left to say, they completely changed it for no good reason

cant buy it, cant make it, but you can still beg for it

ps if the rc doesnt have the rules, and items wont be in the heroes books, where can you even see the treasure items? you have to buy the whole dm kit? and if they would let you make some uncommons where would these rules even be? anybody know what book will actually have the rules if not the rc? do you have to buy the whole dm kit for the rules or are they going to sell the little book inside?

Okayyy...

So, what you've got there is a random treasure generation table that looks like statistically over a level will spit out approximately the same amount of treasure as a levels worth of treasure packages.

I'm puzzled by this but not mortified. I don't think this is what people who wanted randomised treasure wanted, DM's either wanted rid of the wishlist and "player entitlement" or rid of the responsiblity of picking items (I'm in this camp to a degree, I'll do it but i find it to be the biggest chore of DMing). Those seem to be the two elements that remain.

These elements do seem like an entirely equivalent tresure system, a little pointless to my mind, but entirely compatable. If you stick with the TP system or move to the random system, very little changes.

What does seem to change, and does seem less "optional" is the rarity system. The indication being that approx half dropped treasure should be common, half common with and occasional rare. They can craft comon, but not uncommon. The ritual they have that now can craft half the treasure in the game, can now do naff all.

This is what I'm less comfortable with. I feel like I'm removing options that my players have and are used to.

As things stand I'm tempted to leave things much alone.
TP or random, makes no odds so I'll stick with TP which gives me more narrative control (you search the body of the hobgoblin and find... a companion collar?... wait what?, You search the dire wolf in the next room and find 56GP).

Rares are new shiny occsional and under the DM's control, I'm happy just to drop in one every so often or whatever the recommendation is.

The common/uncommon is where I have some issues. I'm half tempted to continue as is with this as well allowing my players to craft any C/U items, hand out whatever C/U items as the system does already, and maybe preserving daily uses.
My concern with this is what about stuff coming out later. If when mordenkainen's vault book comes out there's an expansion of what uncommons can do. One that's really not compatable with allowing crafting and handing out regularly, or daily uses, but is with the new system of non-crafting, no restriction on daily use.
Ideally they'd say, "yes uncommons will continue, along the same design standards, and power levels as we've seen so far. They should be compatable with both systems."
But i get the feeling they won't commit to that. The new stuff will compatable with the essentials system, and if you're lucky the old system too, but that's not going to be the criteria for whether they publish it.
me too, im done w it, once they didnt even put the old rules in as an option, theres nothing left to say, they completely changed it for no good reason

cant buy it, cant make it, but you can still beg for it

ps if the rc doesnt have the rules, and items wont be in the heroes books, where can you even see the treasure items? you have to buy the whole dm kit? and if they would let you make some uncommons where would these rules even be? anybody know what book will actually have the rules if not the rc? do you have to buy the whole dm kit for the rules or are they going to sell the little book inside?




See I dont get this, I take a look at my 3.5 RC and I dont see treasure, or allocation or any of the rules to run adventures, Is just hade the rules pertaining to combat and character things like spells and stuff.

Its not even anything I would expect in the 4e RC.  I dont see why people are so up in arms about it.  The way I look at is is that if those kinds of items are in this book its a bonus.

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

As I've said before, I'm not a fan of random treasure tables, but I am a fan of greater DM control over the magic items , and the rate/degree at which PCs find/acquire them in a campaign.

I'll probably adopt the common/uncommon/rare system wholesale, including the recommended restrictions on magic item crafting, but still use the parcel system from the DMG for actually placing treasure. For my personal campaign, this represents the best of both worlds.

Anyone else thinking of letting the players in a new group each start with one "rare" magic item, that ties into their characters' backstory? I'm thinking that once we have better rules on what rares can do, whether or not we have examples, the DM and individual players could sit down and dream one up that would fit both the player's imagination and not be OP or out of place in DMs world.

An example would be like Wulfgar's warhammer. He pretty much starts his advenutring career with it and keeps it throughout. Thoughts?
JoJa -> I do something similar.  But they don't start with it.  Throughout the campaign lifetime, each character ends up with something "rare" or artifact-like.  I tend to start thinking about these types of items at around high-mid heroic tier.  I don't want to give them an artifact too early in heroic tier because really the character has had less time to develop and while they may enjoy a hammer at level 1 - 4 they might decide that that battle axe is a lot more fun at level 5, so by level 7-9 they are pretty set in their item styles that they like.

In my group now:

Warlord found an artifact maul named Saturnalia (lawful artifact that wants to see evil destroyed and law upheld) at 7th level.

Next up was the Shaman who found Spider Silk at 11th level (artifact drow armor)

Next up was the paladin who found a golden dragon orb which allowed him to gain an equivalent level gold dragon as a mount (young adult at level 15) and who will also find a dragonlance.

The warlock will have assembled the Rod of Seven Parts by the end of paragon.

That just leaves my monk and my runepriest.  The runepriest is working on an item-set.  I may invent a weapon for him that is artifact-like.

These rare items all boost in level with the characters. 

The downside if you can call it that is that not everyone gets everything all at once.  Some get them earlier than others.  I find with maturity and compromise that that shouldn't be that big a deal.  In my group it hasn't been as everyone knows that their time will come. 

The dwarf and the monk joined the campaign in paragon tier so that is why they are not getting something right away, the players that were there since level 1 were put higher in priority.

I don't like high magic campaigns where everyone has multiple rare items.  I think one artifact/rare each is plenty.  They still get their normal allotment of other magic items.

Random loot?  I may use the random coinage.  I like that actually.  Random items... I like to make sure what they find is useful.  So what I do if I don't place an item specifically is roll a random item like this:

D20 roll determines source book (PHB1 has the greatest chance of being selected)
D20 roll determines category (Weapon, Armor, Neck Slot, Wondrous Item, etc)

If weapon, find what weapons are needed.  If paladin for example has only a +2 sword and is in paragon, put a sword in.  If armor, find what armor is needed and put that in.  Etc...

Determine level of item (I likke the party level + D4 +1).  Find that allotment of items in the source book.  Roll randomly to determine property.

I don't use random loot for everything.  I have been known to go there a few times but I also know that if I use it exclusively that my party will be lacking in areas that dont' get rolled up.

Rare items I would never roll for.  Those are story items and should always be something that the player would use.

At the beginning of paragon and epic tier I let all my players choose ONE appropriate item from the books.  Appropriate being their level or less. 
To see my campaign world visit http://dnd.chrisnye.net My music -> www.myspace.com/Incarna My music videos -> www.youtube.com/Auticusx
so what book will have the uncommon rules (if they exist) and treasure items? do you have to buy the whole dm kit? i didnt play 3rd edition or 3.5, i assumed a rules compendium, especially one that has some treasure rules is the source for treasure rules. so the treasure rules are spread out amongst more than one book? what book will explain any of this? the small dm guide in the kit? i thought that wasnt complete or was abridged or whatever. what is the rule book if not the rule book? anybody? do you have to buy the entire line to figure out the rules?  

No the treasure rules themselves are usually only in one book.

The parcel system is in the DMG.

The random loot system is in the rules compendium.

The common/uncommon/rare items I imagine will be in various treasure books, splat books, etc... as they are now (right now we have PHB1,2,3 for items plus Adventurer Vaults 1 & 2 plus a few other books that have items in it)

The rumour (and take it as such as I have not read the book) is that all of the existing items are lumped under one category and things like rares and uncommons will be released in future books.

To see my campaign world visit http://dnd.chrisnye.net My music -> www.myspace.com/Incarna My music videos -> www.youtube.com/Auticusx
will the little dm book from the kit be for sale or do you have to buy the kit? anybody


what book will explain the uncommon rules?
Flipped thru the DMs kit at my FLGS last nite, some quick notes below.

Before you start reading, My first impression of the rules in this book is that some at WotC is devoted disciple of the "Gygax DM vs. Players" principal. This isnt just a revised 4e, this is pretty close to saying "Its my way or the highway" to the average 4e player.
I had a decent feeling about essentials until the MI rarity article, Now I see bad juju for this edition.

1) Wish lists are strongly suggested, as before. It says the player's wish list should consist of the uncommon items he wants. Also, the DM should do his best to give the players useful items that they want, but not feel like they have to give out every single item on a player's list.



Except for Rare items, Where the DM is flat out told "Dont Use Them"


2) Like was posted on EN World, there is a table for each level. When making out the parcels, the DM rolls 1d20 and consults the list. The following list was posted by Thalmin at ENW:

For a party level 1
(11-14) 2d6 x 100 sp; (15+) 2d6 x 10 gp
(18+) 1d2 gems worth 100 gp
(20+) one art object worth 250 gp
(13+) one magic item of level 1d4 +1

Whatever number is rolled, the parcel consists of each item on the list of that number or lower. For example: If a 15 were rolled for a parcel, the party would receive 2d6 x 10 gp (15), 2d6 x 10 sp (11-14), and one magic item of level 1d4+1 (13+).



And that one item is determined randomly, 1-19 Odd Common, Even Uncommon, 20=Rare.


4) Magic items are not randomly distributed; rather, players receive a random number of items per level based on the parcel rolls. The actual items players receive, however, are still handled the same as before (DM's choice from wish lists).

5) When a magic item is rolled for a parcel, the parcel roll also determines the item's rarity. I believe it was odd numbers = common, and even numbers = uncommon.



Close. And the "Dont use Wish lists for supposedly Character Defining Items"


What I did not find out:

1) How rare items are handled. I was skimming and trying not to look like a mooch, so it's possible I overlooked this. It's also possible that rare items are on the level tables at higher levels. I just glanced at the two-page spread of level tables and didn't note whether later levels were structured any different than level one.



Nope, Rares are DM handouts ONLY.
and BTW, they are crap.
I know the PHB1 stock standard Holy Avenger is a Rare, I'm pretty sure Flaming was also. The Bag of Holding(c'mon, seriously?) is an example of an Uncommon. There are VERY few Commons in the book. Delvers Armor(??, Its so bad I didnt even look at the name, +ENH to Surge Value) being the only one I remember. Dwarven and Veterans were Uncommon.
They weren't kidding, If its got a "Power,"  no matter how weak or situational, its Uncommon or Rare.


I think that about covers it. I might can remember something else if anyone can jar my memory, but I think that was all I learned. The Compendium, by the way, felt awesome and was very high quality. Just nine more days and I can get one of my own. Smile



The DM guide is very light and felt flimsy in my hand, every page I turned I was afraid it was going to slip from the bindings.
thank you for clarifying the rules, i figured gazra was doing his best to spin it in a positive light for those that complained about it. so the dm guide tells you not to let them have a choice with their 'defining' items, that is terrible and i hope i never play with a dm that does that

dwarven armor is uncommon? wow that sucks, that reaaaaly sucks


so its actually worse than i thought, thanks for being honest about it and not trying to spin it
Sounds pretty much like how I've been running things. I never allowed the create magic item ritual to become a factory and I generally give players what they need for their characters via wish lists. I also held certain notable or remarkable items (usually Wonderous) as 'rare' rewards for special sessions. Of course I also have plenty of uses for money and equipment in my campaign.

So this probably won't be much of a change over.
IMAGE(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58/Smougman/Avatars/FR_Icon2-1.png)IMAGE(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58/Smougman/Poland.gif)IMAGE(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58/Smougman/Avatars/Ebb.gif)IMAGE(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58/Smougman/Avatars/GamaW.png)

Except for Rare items, Where the DM is flat out told "Dont Use Them"



So they created rare items as a category, and then "flat out told DMs to not use them".  Somehow I doubt this very much. 

Before you start reading, My first impression of the rules in this book is that some at WotC is devoted disciple of the "Gygax DM vs. Players" principal. This isnt just a revised 4e, this is pretty close to saying "Its my way or the highway" to the average 4e player.
I had a decent feeling about essentials until the MI rarity article, Now I see bad juju for this edition.



Or do you mean they created rare items and then told DMs to not let players have them at their whim?

Is preventing players from having rare items at their leisure really "my way or the highway Gygax DM vs Players?"  Or is that the attitude of a sulking 12 year old who can't have everything that they want and thus feels the system is now "broken".

Here's a suggestion:  don't use the rules you don't like in your system, don't bother with the treasure system that is defined here, continue to use the Dungeon Masters Guide for your treasure,  and find a DM who will give you everything that you want. 

I am very interested to see exact quotes from the rules that equate to "Gygax vs the Players, My WaY or the HighwaY".  I'm betting there aren't any.

 i figured gazra was doing his best to spin it in a positive light for those that complained about it



Kind of like how some people spin everything negatively for those that find it to be ok? 
To see my campaign world visit http://dnd.chrisnye.net My music -> www.myspace.com/Incarna My music videos -> www.youtube.com/Auticusx
im not spinning anything, the book says not to let players have input on their 'defining' items, that isnt spin, thats just fact, sorry if you dont like it

Nope, Rares are DM handouts ONLY.
and BTW, they are crap.
I know the PHB1 stock standard Holy Avenger is a Rare, I'm pretty sure Flaming was also. The Bag of Holding(c'mon, seriously?) is an example of an Uncommon. There are VERY few Commons in the book. Delvers Armor(??, Its so bad I didnt even look at the name, +ENH to Surge Value) being the only one I remember. Dwarven and Veterans were Uncommon.
They weren't kidding, If its got a "Power,"  no matter how weak or situational, its Uncommon or Rare.


And how do you know all of this?
Sure thing.  Quote me the part from the new rules compendium please where it says "players do not have input in their "defining items"".

I'll be waiting here with baited breath. 

Let me see, Gazra said this:

1) Wish lists are strongly suggested, as before. It says the player's wish list should consist of the uncommon items he wants. Also, the DM should do his best to give the players useful items that they want, but not feel like they have to give out every single item on a player's list.



He also said this:

4) Magic items are not randomly distributed; rather, players receive a random number of items per level based on the parcel rolls. The actual items players receive, however, are still handled the same as before (DM's choice from wish lists).



Oh wait someone said this:

Close. And the "Dont use Wish lists for supposedly Character Defining Items"



This must definitely be the official rules quote that we are going off of. 

I still haven't seen anything that says you won't let players have a say in their "defining items".  I saw "don't feel that they have to give out every single item on a player's list".  I saw that rare items should only be given by the DM.

I'm not seeing your take or spin on it though.  Again, if you can quote me from the rules that support your argument, I'll gladly concede that the big bad evil designers (BBED, level 35 solo Taker-Away-Of-Fun XP:  none  AC 90 HP 45,009  +56 to hit 10D100 + 547 points of all types of damage x 3 attacks per minor action) have now gone the direction of the DM controls the magic items in the games at all times.


To see my campaign world visit http://dnd.chrisnye.net My music -> www.myspace.com/Incarna My music videos -> www.youtube.com/Auticusx
Stop being silly now. We all know that if something sounds negative, then it's the unbiased vision of truth.

I'm so gonna enjoy seeing all the doomsayers having to eat their hats. The RC release was the beginning (WAIT? IT'S NOT 4.5???), now the real fun will begin.
Interested in reading about a Dark Sun 4e game? Here's the blog of our current campaign. My homebrew Dark Sun material: - the Lord of Blades, a melee oriented Kaisharga/Dead Lord
  Quote me the part from the new rules compendium please where it says "players do not have input in their "defining items"".

I'll be waiting here with baited breath. 


I still haven't seen anything that says you won't let players have a say in their "defining items".  I saw that rare items should only be given by the DM.






i dont have to quote anything but YOU, the 'defining' items are what wotc called rares in the article, so for the second time in as many days, someone has answered their own question in the same post as they ask the question
Stop being silly now. We all know that if something sounds negative, then it's the unbiased vision of truth.

I'm so gonna enjoy seeing all the doomsayers having to eat their hats. The RC release was the beginning (WAIT? IT'S NOT 4.5???), now the real fun will begin.



If it's one thing I've learned in life it is that people will go to great lengths to not admit that they were wrong.  To include just saying "nuh uh because i say so".

They will continue to say this is 4.5.  They will continue to say silly hyperbolated things like "I KNEW it it's GYGAX VS THE PLAYERS ALL OVER AGAIN (because the book says DMs shouldn't feel like they have to give everything the player wants and that rares are given out by the DM only).  Because that's how people are.

Silly silly people.

The religious and political forums I enjoy reading are filled with the exact same thing.  Only replace Red Box with Jesus and 4.5 with Atheist, or Random loot with Obama is killing america and Gygax theory is coming back with Republicans are in bed with corporations ruining our country.

It's the exact same thing, only the labels change.
To see my campaign world visit http://dnd.chrisnye.net My music -> www.myspace.com/Incarna My music videos -> www.youtube.com/Auticusx