14 temp every round? really?

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One of my 7th level characers in the game I DM is a 7th level hybrid Fighter/Warder. He is now getting 14 Temp points almost every round... He reports that at eleventh it will be like 24 per round. Really? Does this not sound 'Broken' to anyone else? It makes it difficult to create fun encounters when one guy is stands out above the others as really never being challenged as others face a real chance of dying at least on occasion...

The real question:  How's he doing it?

That certainly sounds excessive.  So either he's found a hole in the system (and he may have other weaknesses because he's hyperfocused) or he's Doing It Wrong - and we can't tell you which it is until we know WHY he thinks he's gettin 14 temp HP a round automatically.

So, post his build!
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Well there's that Fighter build which deals with stackable temp HP, that might be part of it otherwise temp HP from other sources don't stack, you take the highest.  This may be where he's doing it wrong as Weasels pointed out.  He may have something from the Warden side that's giving him temp HP to but those wont stack with THP from the Fighter powers and whatnot.

But yeah, I'd say as much as it might make the player annoyed, check his build, feel free to post it here.  If you really think this is a problem hopefully the player wont raise a fuss about you scoping his build.
At 7th level, the only way I can think of for him to get 14 THP per round was if he was a Dwarf who started with a 20 Con, took the Dwarven Stoneblood feat, and had some kind of item or boon that I am unaware of that increased the THP he gains by 2.  Such a character has invested so much into his Con, though, that he is probably quite gimped (as without increased starting stats, he'd be stuck with a 14 Con).

What is far more likely is that the player in question is unaware of, or deliberately ignoring and attempting to keep you unaware of, the update on the Battlerage Vigor feature and/or feats (especially the feats, as it was hard to miss the update to the feature, but easy to miss the update to the feats).

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I would agree with Alitain/mplindustries. The player is likely using rules from the book and may themselves be unaware (never assume malice) of the updates to the rules regarding the Battlerage Vigor.

Without the build its hard to tell and if you don't have the build perhaps the player isn't using the character builder (wrong on many occasions itself) which might have alerted them to the changes.

Ultimately though it is everyone's game, if you (and the other players) aren't having fun due to something that might even be rules legal you should change it, hopefully in a way that can at least let everyone feel better about the game including the possibly non-updated player.
Well there's that Fighter build which deals with stackable temp HP,



No, there isn't.  No temp HP stacks, ever, for anyone, under any circumstances.

(Battleragers get MORE temp HP than other people when they use Invigorating powers, but that's not the same as stacking temp HP.  Invigorating powers are better for them, but they still don't stack.)

Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
At 7th level, the only way I can think of for him to get 14 THP per round was if he was a Dwarf who started with a 20 Con, took the Dwarven Stoneblood feat, and had some kind of item or boon that I am unaware of that increased the THP he gains by 2.  Such a character has invested so much into his Con, though, that he is probably quite gimped (as without increased starting stats, he'd be stuck with a 14 Con).



Dwarf  Fighter|Warden
Feat: Hybrid Talent - Battlerager Vigour
Feat: Dwarf Stoneblood
Con 20
= 7 temp HP for missing with an Invigorating power, 12 for hitting with it.

With a little creative misunderstanding and thus a pre-errata reading of Stoneblood, that's 7+7=14.  This is wrong, but understandable.

At L11, his Con will be 22 and Stoneblood will be +4, which gives him 10 for missing and 16 for hitting, but his creative misunderstanding lets him pretend to get Stoneblood twice, for a total of 20 temp HP.


But Con 20 at L7 requires starting with a natural 17 or 18, which necessarily gimps his Strength a bunch, which means he'll miss a lot AND the rest of his defenses will be completely tanked.  This character is going to be producing 7 temp HP most rounds and 14 temp HP and some damage some rounds, but they're going to be eminently IGNORABLE, trivially easy to hit on anything except Fortitude, and the fact that you really can't drop him to 0 HP quickly is not important - you can apply any Status effect you want to him any time you want, and his to-hit is so low that you can safely ignore him most of the time while killing his friends who are ACTUALLY THREATENING.

But all that assumes he's built a Con 20 Battlerager and he's misunderstanding Stoneblood.


Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Defenses and all don't necessarily need to be gimped though Weasels.  If the group roll their stats instead of using point buy.  Our group rolls, and its not uncommon for someone to come up with an 18 and reasonable stats for everything else.  When I say reasonable I mean like a +2, sometimes 3 for their other two defenses.  But again, just speculation just felt like pointing out his defenses don't necessarily suck.  Though everything else seems like its spot on I honestly don't know the Stoneblood feat you mentioned but its likely something along the lines that you posted which is what the player is doing.  Or just flat out lying...bummer if it is though.
Defenses and all don't necessarily need to be gimped though Weasels.  If the group roll their stats instead of using point buy.  Our group rolls, and its not uncommon for someone to come up with an 18 and reasonable stats for everything else.  When I say reasonable I mean like a +2, sometimes 3 for their other two defenses.  But again, just speculation just felt like pointing out his defenses don't necessarily suck. 



"He might have rolled his stats and come up really well" is the same as "he might be bad at math and think 4+4=14" or "he might be in a game that houserules all temp HP gains to double" - which is to say he's either accidentally or deliberately broken the most fundamental of the assumptions of the game, so expecting his build to be sane is, well, crazy, and the DM should have been prepared for the game to not work at the most fundamental levels.

Since the DM hasn't said "I'm using stupid house rules" and this is the Rules Q&A forum, I'm assuming until he says otherwise that he's running by the book.

Though everything else seems like its spot on I honestly don't know the Stoneblood feat you mentioned but its likely something along the lines that you posted which is what the player is doing.



Dwarf Stoneblood is from Martial Power.  It's available to Dwarf Battleragers only, and it increases the temp HP you gain from Invigorating powers by 2/4/6.

It's exactly the same as the Improved Vigor feat, except 2/4/6 instead of 1/2/3 because Dwarves just simply NEEDED more bonuses to toughness that other races couldn't match.  Really.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Excuse me Weasels, there's no need to be rude.  All I was pointing out is that he may have rolled his stats which is perfectly fine way to get stats.  Its not house ruling, let alone a stupid house rule.  Just because you use the point buy system doesn't make those who don't stupid, so not its not the same as saying "he might be bad at math and think 4+4=14".

And it says in the book you can roll your stats, check out page 17-18, "Generating Ability Scores" section.  It gives you 3 ways to generate scores.  Method 1: Standard Array, Method 2: Customizing Scores(Point buy), Method 3: Rolling Scores.

So he can be playing by the book and the group could be rolling stats which is perfectly legal.  As I said, I was just pointing out that just because he started with a 20 Con doesn't mean his defenses blow.

I will thank you though for posting the Stoneblood feat.  Interesting since there is already a similar feat and as you point out its kinda ridiculous to give Dwarfs the same thing but better, then again thats how it goes though.
Interesting since there is already a similar feat and as you point out its kinda ridiculous to give Dwarfs the same thing but better,



Eh? I thought that was one of the points of races. You are situationally better at some things than other races.
"At a certain point, one simply has to accept that some folks will see what they want to see..." Dragon 387
Its more that it's the EXACT same feat, just a little extra bonus.  Sure, I'm cool with races getting bonuses, I find it more amusing I guess you'd say than anything else that its just the same feat just double the bonus.  More along the lines of they didn't try very hard with the feat, but that's not really here or there anyway.
Melee training and only relying on melee basic attack?
Is there a feat to give MBA invigorating keyword? 
Is there a feat to give MBA invigorating keyword? 

Oh. Hah. Yeah, I don't know. Sounds doable somewhere but I wouldn't know.
Is there a feat to give MBA invigorating keyword? 


Invincible Vanguard epic destiny allows it for MBA as part of a charge.



Invigorating Charge (21th level): Your Strength score increases by 2.
Whenever you charge and make a basic attack, that attack gains the invigorating keyword.
In addition, you can take actions after a charge.
Totally irrelevant to this conversation. Heh.
Yeah, was wondering if there was some Melee training Con shenanigans.
Even if the player did take training con you would lose out on almost every fighter power ever.  Encounters and at wills would be nearly worthless without str.  Even dailies would be effected a bit.

I think overal that would make a weak fighter indeed.
Not necessarily. If you're using Mark of Warding, then you give enemies a -3 to hit if they're marked. If you have Asstons of THP then you're absorbing a lot of damage with little cost. You may deal jack for damage (unless they trigger Combat Challenge), but there's very little risk. With something like Dual Strike (spiked shield?) and a number of Close Burst fighter powers, it can actually be worthwhile.

Maybe. Depends on your allies' defenses.
Sorry everybody, I was away for the weekend. Per the first request I will post this character tonight!

For me it depends more on mark punishment than anything. Sure, the enemies will have a -2 or possibly a -3 to hit another target; but if the warrior is going to absorb most of the damage they'd be dealing anyways the only other incentives for an emey to attack the warrior are convenience and mark punishment.

If the warrior's hit is low, then his combat challenge is much less likely to hit and when it does the damage it deals is likely to also be negligible. Likewise, his OA's won't have much extra oomph behind them because his wis mod (or dex mod plus a feat) is very likely a +1 or less. As long as the other players in the party don't have equivalent AC then there is almost always going to be a better target for them for each of their attacks than the warrior.

But hey, whatever, the important thing is ensuring he is using all the powers/feats/class-features/THP-rules properly and has the updated versions of each.

Melee Training (Constitution) allows the warrior to use MBAs all the time and hit with their MBA despite low strength. Alternatively, I guess you could be a hybrid Fighter/Swordmage with Aegis of shielding?

For sure, Melee training Con would help him a great deal (if he is indeed stacked so high in con and not just calculating his THP incorrectly). As someone pointed out earlier, that would gimp most of his othr powers significantly.


Plus didn't the OP say that he was playing a fighter/warden hybrid?

Edit: I reread the OP, he said hybrid fighter/warder. I assume he meant warden.

Probably, I'm just spouting mindless hypotheticals, let's wait for the full build post.
Excuse me Weasels, there's no need to be rude.  All I was pointing out is that he may have rolled his stats which is perfectly fine way to get stats.  Its not house ruling, let alone a stupid house rule.  Just because you use the point buy system doesn't make those who don't stupid, so not its not the same as saying "he might be bad at math and think 4+4=14".

And it says in the book you can roll your stats, check out page 17-18, "Generating Ability Scores" section.  It gives you 3 ways to generate scores.  Method 1: Standard Array, Method 2: Customizing Scores(Point buy), Method 3: Rolling Scores.

So he can be playing by the book and the group could be rolling stats which is perfectly legal.  As I said, I was just pointing out that just because he started with a 20 Con doesn't mean his defenses blow.

I didn't read it as being rude, just straightforward.  You're right that rolling for stats is listed in the book, but LordofWeasels is also right that "he just rolled really well" is another way to say "he's breaking fundamental assumptions about the game".  A PC who starts with multiple 17s and/or 18s really is fundamentally different from a PC made using point-buy, in ways which really do violate the basic assumptions about PC power level. 

As a particularly relevant example, one of the few drawbacks of the Battlerage Vigor feature for fighters is that forgoing Weapon Talent and prioritizing Con (as well as using axes/hammers) tends to drive your attack bonus down, in some cases below the 50% mark.  However, if you roll two really good stats, that drawback disappears, and you have a fully functional attacking PC who gets effective resist 5-10 against the first melee or close attack every round.

However, if you roll two really good stats, that drawback disappears, and you have a fully functional attacking PC who gets effective resist 5-10 against the first melee or close attack every round.



Notably, it's not "first" and it's not "melee or close" any more.

The temp HP that the Rager gets apply against all attacks.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
However, if you roll two really good stats, that drawback disappears, and you have a fully functional attacking PC who gets effective resist 5-10 against the first melee or close attack every round.



Notably, it's not "first" and it's not "melee or close" any more.

The temp HP that the Rager gets apply against all attacks.

Well, the temp hp will ablate against the first successful attack, but you're correct.  I haven't DMed for a battlerager since before the update/nerf (was that really over a year ago?), and at that point the only way to reliably damage him was to include lots of artillery creatures; it sort of sticks in my memory.  (c:

I agree that bumping his CON like this will make other aspects of his character suffer It will be a not so well rounded Defender that can regain lot's of THP when he manage to hit.

Notably, it's not "first" and it's not "melee or close" any more.

The temp HP that the Rager gets apply against all attacks.

  

It's not true LoW. The BRV still only gain THP whenever he hit with a melee or close attack or when he hit or miss with an Invigorating Power. A BRV wouldn't gain any THP on a RBA for exemple, even if he hit.

UpdateMar2010 Battlerager Vigor
Whenever you hit an enemy with a melee or a close attack, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier, plus any temporary hit points normally granted by the power. You gain the hit points only after the attack is resolved.
If you use an invigorating fighter attack power and miss every target with it, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier. You gain the hit points only after the attack is resolved.


It's not true LoW. The BRV still gain THP whenever he hit with a melee or close attack or when he hit or miss with an Invigorating Power. A BRV wouldn't gain any THP on a RBA for exemple, even if he hit.



Now he gets temp HP *when he hits*.

Not *when he is hit by*.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.

Now he gets temp HP *when he hits*.

Not *when he is hit by*.



Yup but not when he hit with any attacks. That's what you were saying.

Now he gets temp HP *when he hits*.

Not *when he is hit by*.



Yup but not when he hit with any attacks. That's what you were saying.



Him:  "PC who gets effective resist 5-10 against the first melee or close attack every round."
Me:   "Not just melee or close.  Post-errata, the type of incoming attack doesn't matter."
You:  "You only get the temp HP for attacking with melee or close attacks."
Me:  "That's not what we're talking about, at all.  There's no restriction on what kind of INCOMING ATTACK YOU TAKE."
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
O I C
I'm still very curious to see this build. Please post it when you're able to.


No, there isn't.  No temp HP stacks, ever, for anyone, under any circumstances.




www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/po..." title="www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/po...">Clarion Call stacks THP.


No, there isn't.  No temp HP stacks, ever, for anyone, under any circumstances.




www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/po..." title="www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/po...">Clarion Call stacks THP.


No it doesn't.  The relevant text in that power is, "You gain 3 temporary hit points for each target you hit. Temporary hit points gained in this way are cumulative."

It means, "Count the number of targets you hit with the power, and multiply it by 3.  That is the number of temporary hit points you gain from this power."  Nowhere does it mention stacking/adding/accumulating the power's hit points with other sources of T.hp or with any T.hp you already have.

Returned from hiatus; getting up to speed on 5e rules lawyering.



No, there isn't.  No temp HP stacks, ever, for anyone, under any circumstances.




www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/po..." title="www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/po...">Clarion Call stacks THP.



No, it doesn't.  It simply gives more temp HP than usual, exactly like a Battlerager using an Invigorating power.

Those temp HP replace (or don't) your normal temp HP, and further uses of Clarion Call do not add temp HP to your existing set.  They still don't stack.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
I wonder when he is going to post how he does it.  I am very curious.  I wonder if somehow he got battle rager and somehow took the at will strike strength of stone.  If he took the feat for improved vigor then that would give him 11.  But as a hybrid you don't get that fighter battle rager thing.  That the only thing i could come up with
I wonder when he is going to post how he does it.  I am very curious.  I wonder if somehow he got battle rager and somehow took the at will strike strength of stone.  If he took the feat for improved vigor then that would give him 11.  But as a hybrid you don't get that fighter battle rager thing.  That the only thing i could come up with

I suspect when he went to post it, he found out that the build was in error, probably from missing some aspect of the updates, so he probably just fixed the problem and moved on.

Heroes Don't Need Special Gear to Be Heroic - A guide to removing magic item dependency and smoothing out advancement. Reinventing the Workday: A Shift Towards Encounter-Based Resources - A guide to abandoning daily resources
I wonder when he is going to post how he does it.  I am very curious.  I wonder if somehow he got battle rager and somehow took the at will strike strength of stone.  If he took the feat for improved vigor then that would give him 11.  But as a hybrid you don't get that fighter battle rager thing.  That the only thing i could come up with

I suspect when he went to post it, he found out that the build was in error, probably from missing some aspect of the updates, so he probably just fixed the problem and moved on.


Resolving something in a completely civil manner once the appropriate rule has been pointed out without exposing a fellow player to derision on the internet? Surely not!

I wonder when he is going to post how he does it.  I am very curious.  I wonder if somehow he got battle rager and somehow took the at will strike strength of stone.  If he took the feat for improved vigor then that would give him 11.  But as a hybrid you don't get that fighter battle rager thing.  That the only thing i could come up with

I suspect when he went to post it, he found out that the build was in error, probably from missing some aspect of the updates, so he probably just fixed the problem and moved on.


Resolving something in a completely civil manner once the appropriate rule has been pointed out without exposing a fellow player to derision on the internet? Surely not!




I don't even know what forum I am on right now...I'm scared
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