Totem Armor

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How would a creature enchanted with an aura with totem armor work out against Planar Cleansing

How would a creature enchanted with an aura with totem armor work out against Planar Cleansing


Read Hyena Umbra's rulings.


6/15/2010: If a spell or ability (such as Planar Cleansing) would destroy both an Aura with totem armor and the permanent it's enchanting at the same time, totem armor's effect will save the enchanted permanent from being destroyed. Instead, the spell or ability will destroy the Aura in two different ways at the same time, but the result is the same as destroying it once.


 


Planar Cleansing tries to destroy, simultaneously, both the creature and the aura.


The Totem Armor ability substitutes the "destroy that creature" event with "destroy this aura".


Then, the aura is destroyed (twice) and the creature survives.

[<o>]
How would a creature enchanted with an aura with totem armor work out against Planar Cleansing

Totem armor replaces the destruction of the creature with destruction of the aura, so all nonland permanents other than the creature will be destroyed, with the aura will be destroyed twice simultaneously (which is pretty much indistinguishable from being destroyed once)

How would a creature enchanted with an aura with totem armor work out against Planar Cleansing

Totem armor replaces the destruction of the creature with destruction of the aura, so all nonland permanents other than the creature will be destroyed, with the aura will be destroyed twice simultaneously (which is pretty much indistinguishable from being destroyed once)



If I had something to regenerate auras, would the aura need to regnerate twice in this scenerio?  Or just once?
 
Only once.  A single regeneration shield is enough to replace any number of simultaneous destructions.  A more common example of this would be lethal damage + deathtouch.
Only once.  A single regeneration shield is enough to replace any number of simultaneous destructions.  A more common example of this would be lethal damage + deathtouch.



Can you point me to the rule that says that?
I found the one that covers deathtouch and lethal damage but that only applies to state based actions.   Planar Chaos destroying something and Totem Armor destroying something are not SBAs, right?

Ah, right.  Good point.  That does only apply to SBAs.  With the Planar Cleansing + totem armor, you would need to regenerate the Aura twice to save it from destruction.

That is, normally, Planar Cleansing does destroy the enchanted creature and destroy the Aura (and also destroy any other nonland permanents).  Totem armor changes this to destroy the Aura and destroy the Aura.  Regeneration changes this to tap the Aura (it can't be in combat and can't have damage on it) and destroy the Aura.  It would still end up destroyed, unless you get a second regeneration to also replace the other destruction.
Thanks for the explanation.
 
Yep, it would need to regenerate twice, which is why i said it was "pretty much" indistinguishable from being destroyed once. It's not completely indistinguishable Smile
Since we're on the subject of regenerating twice:

I know a Masticore only has to regenerate once from Akroma's Vengeance. What about Decimate? There's still only one verb, but if you target the masticore as the creature and the artifact, does it have to regenerate twice?
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Since we're on the subject of regenerating twice:

I know a Masticore only has to regenerate once from Akroma's Vengeance. What about Decimate? There's still only one verb, but if you target the masticore as the creature and the artifact, does it have to regenerate twice?

Yes, same principle. The effect of Decimate is "destroy Masticore, destroy Masticore, destroy [targeted enchantment], destroy [targeted land]". Just as Planar Cleansing in the above example, it's trying to destroy Masticore twice, so you'd need two shields.

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I disagree. You'll only need to regenerate once. 

If what you said was true madmageqc, then why wouldn't it be true for akroma's vengeance as well? After all, your reasoning would mean that akroma's vengeance is "destoy all artifacts, destroy all creatures, and destroy all enchantments", and masticore clearly falls into two of those categories.

Its just one verb, so it's just one destruction event. The only reason the totem armor example is unique is because a single destruction event is done to multiple objects, and then a particular replacement effect subdivides that event into smaller events, and moves one part of it to something already being affected by the larger event.
Akroma's Vengeance acts as a single event that tries to destroy everything that matches the criteria "is an artifact, creature, or enchantment" once. Decimate acts as four events that happen at the same time.

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If it happens at the same time, you'll only have to regenerate once (how is that different from Planar Cleansing?). And since there is only one verb it is all happening at the same time.

I agree with Cyphern, one regeneration shield will save Masticore from a Decimate, even if it has been targetted as the artifact and the creature.

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So pluri-targetting an object with Decimate still tries to destroy it only once...


...while if I Decimate both a creature and its Totem Armor, the Armor needs two Regeneration shileds, right?


(although both situations sum up to «Decimate trying to destroy the same object twice.»)

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one thousand, people might notice;

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one million, I might get away with it;

If I wish to steal even more and still go unnoticed, I need to make the loot bigger.

 

Now you know why taxes always go up.

 

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So pluri-targetting an object with Decimate still tries to destroy it only once...


...while if I Decimate both a creature and its Totem Armor, the Armor needs two Regeneration shileds, right?


(although both situations sum up to «Decimate trying to destroy the same object twice.»)




Yes, you'd need two shields. The aura is trying to be destroyed two ways, as it was above with planar cleansing.
Could someone provide rules references please for why the Akroma/Decimate thing leads to different numbers of regenerates needed? I'm too groggy to dig in right now, but I'm interested in the discussion. Seems like they both end up saying, "destroy A and destroy A".
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Could someone provide rules references please for why the Akroma/Decimate thing leads to different numbers of regenerates needed?

They don't. Akroma and Decimate both require the exact same quantity of regenerations. Its when you throw totem armor into the mix that things change.
Sorry, that is what I meant, Akroma+totem armour interaction vs Decimate on the same target twice. Any rules reference to distinguish them?
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Akroma+totem armour interaction vs Decimate on the same target twice. Any rules reference to distinguish them?

Um, the distinguishing feature is that one scenario involves a replacement effect, and the other does not. So i can quote the rules for replacement effects if you like...

In the absence of replacement effects, we have the following:
  • Akroma's Vengeance has a single instruction, which is applied to a set of objects. That instruction is "destroy". That set of objects is "All artifacts, creatures, and enchantments. 

  • Decimate has a single instruction, which is applied to a set of objects. That instruction is "destroy". That set of objects is "Target artifact, Target creature, Target enchantment, and Target land"

Throw in totem armor, and it can take one event (destroying the creature) and replace it with another event (destroying the enchantment). This replacement doesn't eliminate the fact that there is a concurrent event for destroying the enchantment. Put them together and you wind up with two events saying to destroy the enchantment.

701.11. Regenerate

701.11a If the effect of a resolving spell or ability regenerates a permanent, it creates a replacement effect that protects the permanent the next time it would be destroyed this turn. In this case, "Regenerate [permanent]" means "The next time [permanent] would be destroyed this turn, instead remove all damage marked on it and tap it. If it's an attacking or blocking creature, remove it from combat."


If it's at the same time, that's what gets replaced.
No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.
I'm still not convinced here. From what Argus quotes, one regeneration would be enough since the Totem Armour gets destroyed twice, but both at the same time.

Decimate says destroy [A,B,C,D] all simultaneously.

if we pick the same thing for two targets it says destroy [A,A,C,D] simultaneously, which equates to destroy [A,C,D] simultaneously, apparently (I'm not so convinced, any rules reference for this one too?)

Akroma says destroy [A,B,C,D,E.....] simultaneously.

with a replacement effect "destroy A instead of B" this gets changed to destroy [A,A,C,D,E..] simultaneously which by the same token equates to destroy [A,C,D,E...] simultaneously, but you seem to be saying it is instead destroy [A,C,D,E...] AND destroy A simultaneously, and that this leads to two different destroy effects on A at the same time but which requires two regenerates.

Could someone provide references that do in fact say these cases need different # of regens? Including why the replacement effects cause the change? Thanks I may be missing loads of stuff as I'm not very with it today.



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"The next time X would happen" is a colloquialism whose meaning may or may not track the meanings of the individual words that make it up as closely as Argus insists. It is difficult to tell whether it means "at the next moment at which X would happen", or "the next instance of X happening". Everyday usage can't be used as a guide here, because in most everyday contexts these two interpretations refer to the same thing, and in contexts where they don't - "The next time someone enters this room, I'll give him or her $5" followed by two people entering simultaneously - different people make different judgments.

I lean toward the interpretation that there is one event in all cases, but argus' argument does not settle the matter in favour of that view. I think we need an [O] ruling here.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
I agree. It seems to me that either they both need two regens, or they both need one. Personally, I would lean towards both needing two. If something is destroyed twice at the same time, then it would be my inference that only one regen shield isn't enough, it can't stop two things happening at once (unlike specifically stated with SBAs). It seems clear to me that Decimate can destroy the same thing twice at the same time.

I would stick with that analysis until someone produces actual rules proof otherwise.

I think the problem may possibly be with the wording of Akroma's Vengeance. I've always read it as meaning "destroy all permanents that are artifacts and/or creatures and/or enchantments." Do the rules support this, rather than the liberal interpretation of "destroy all creatures, destroy all artifacts, destroy all enchantments" which I'm pretty sure isn't intended, but I don't know if I could prove it's not the case.

EDIT: So I guess the questions are-

1) If a permanent is chosen twice by Decimate, is it destroyed twice? (I'd say yes).
2) If a permanent is destroyed twice at the same time during the resolution of a spell or ability, does it need one regen or two to save it? (I'd say two).

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I'd say 'the next time it would be destroyed' means 'the next time it would be destroyed,' not 'the next time an instruction tells you to destroy it,' since there is nothing in the rules to suggest otherwise. Thus, if an instruction would result in something being destroyed twice at the same time, only one regeneratino shield would be needed, since there'd be only one 'time' at which it would be destroyed, no matter how many instructions are doing it. In fact, this is the logic behind the reason that renegeration is only required once even if deathtouch + lethal damage were dealt simultaneously. I fail to see how you understand the logic behind the SBAs but think a different logic would apply here when the rules in no way suggest that.
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I fail to see how you understand the logic behind the SBAs but think a different logic would apply here when the rules in no way suggest that.


The problem is that there's a rule that applies to the SBA situation (704.6).  There's no corresponding rule for multiple simultaneous destructions that aren't caused by SBAs.

For the record, I agree that logically, it should work the same way, but the presence of a rule for one situation but not the other leaves the question less than satisfactorily resolved.
If anything, the fact that it specifically says that regeneration can replace several different destruction events by SBAs would imply to me that this isn't the norm. If it was, why only refer to it there and not in the general rules for regeneration?

Either way, as inori says, there just isn't a rule that says about it (that I'm aware of).

Does anyone have any evidence/ruling about Decimate, whether it actually destroys a permanent twice if it's chosen as two of the targets? I feel that this has to be the case the way it is worded. I'm surprised the Oracle doesn't have a ruling for that.
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Does anyone have any evidence/ruling about Decimate, whether it actually destroys a permanent twice if it's chosen as two of the targets?

Rulings are easy to come by. Here's one by a Zoe Stephenson: 
Decimate has four targets.  Each has its own use of the word "target".  If there is one permanent on the battlefield that's an artifact, a  creature, an enchantment and a land all at once, then Decimate could  target that one permanent four times.  It would only be destroyed  once, though.

But i have no idea the credentials of the person making this ruling, nor do they describe the reason behind it.
But i have no idea the credentials of the person making this ruling, nor do they describe the reason behind it.


Zoë is the NetRep for the rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules newsgroup.
Hmm, thanks. I guess that's not an official ruling then. I don't see how you can come to that conclusion using just the CR and the card wording. That assumes the card read/means...

"destroy all unique permanents among target creature, target land, target artifact and target enchantment."

But it doesn't say that or at all make that clear on the card. To me it seems simple, you're doing 4 things, destroying 4 targets, all at once. If you happen to destroy the same thing twice, then you destroy it twice, you don't magically ignore one of the "targets" because it's not unique anymore. Why would you? I don't see anything in the rules to say you would. Well that's another ruling right there ;) From me.

I'd be interested if there is any more on this or an official ruling.

In the absence of something specific in the rules about double-destroying something, I'd assume you have to regenerate twice. A regeneration shield effect can usually only replace one destruction event. It would see two simultaneous destructions as two events, and it can only stop one of them. The rules give you no reason to think otherwise, prevention/replacement effects usually work this way. They don't "cross out" two events for the price of one if they happen together, the rules certainly don't say that.
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Hmm, thanks. I guess that's not an official ruling then.


Why not?  Zoe is a netrep, same as Natedogg.

Hmm, thanks. I guess that's not an official ruling then.

What about being an official netrep makes that not an official ruling? What Avedomni said is that she's rgtmr's equivalent of Natedogg.

Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
Oh OK, I thought she was a rep for some other forum or something. I thought Cyphern was saying he found some random ruling by someone. I don't understand what makes people official and stuff unless I know their specific names.

I'd still love an explanation though as to why it would be the case Seems hella-arbitrary. But then I say that about everything...
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Well, for one thing it's analagous to how Deathtouch and (normal) lethal damage have interacted since M10 - if I block a 6/6 with Deathtouch with Drudge Skeletons, I only need to regenerate my boneheads once.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
Well that's SBA which isn't the same as stuff being destroyed during a spell's resolution. It may be somewhat analagous, but that's extrapolating from the rules, SBAs don't work the same as eveything else.

And the Skeletons is (or would be) destroyed twice, it just is allowed to specially only use one regen because of the specific SBA rules.

This is about turning 4 targets into 1 for no particular reason; saying only 1 regen is necessary for multiple simultaneous destroys (if that was the official rule) isn't the same as saying it's only destroyed once. However I can find evidence for neither of those statements in the actual rules.

Lol boneheads
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The general rule is that you count the number of verbs. Each verb is a separate action.

Decimate's text is "Destroy target artifact, target creature, target enchantment, and target land." That is one verb, and therefore all four things are destroyed as part of one action.

The same appled to Akroma's Vengeance; one verb, one action.

The SBAs would appear to have two verbs; one in 704.5g and one in 704.5h. Therefore, we would expect that there are two separate destroy actions for a creature dealt lethal damage, some or all of which is from a source with Deathtouch. That would imply that you need to regenerate twice.

You regenerate only once because rule 704.3 overrides the normal convention of "one verb one action" in the case of SBAs. There's no such rule for resolving spells and abilities, because you just apply the regular convention.

Similarly there is only one verb in Akroma's Vengeance. I conclude there is only one Destroy action, even if a particular object becomes subject to that action in multiple ways. Therefore you would only need to regenerate a Totem Armour once.
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The general rule is that you count the number of verbs. Each verb is a separate action.

Decimate's text is "Destroy target artifact, target creature, target enchantment, and target land." That is one verb, and therefore all four things are destroyed as part of one action.

The same appled to Akroma's Vengeance; one verb, one action.

The SBAs would appear to have two verbs; one in 704.5g and one in 704.5h. Therefore, we would expect that there are two separate destroy actions for a creature dealt lethal damage, some or all of which is from a source with Deathtouch. That would imply that you need to regenerate twice.

You regenerate only once because rule 704.3 overrides the normal convention of "one verb one action" in the case of SBAs. There's no such rule for resolving spells and abilities, because you just apply the regular convention.

Similarly there is only one verb in Akroma's Vengeance. I conclude there is only one Destroy action, even if a particular object becomes subject to that action in multiple ways. Therefore you would only need to regenerate a Totem Armour once.



If a spell said put a +1/+1 counter on target land and target creature, and you choose Dryad Arbor for both targets, how many counters would it get?

If it gets two counters, then why wouldn't it be destroyed twice from Decimate?
In that case it would only get one +1/+1 counter. That's why Seeds of Strength is worded the way it is. (Rather than "Target creature, target creature, and target creature get +1/+1 until end of turn" , though of course that wording would have been super awkward).
In that case it would only get one +1/+1 counter. That's why Seeds of Strength is worded the way it is. (Rather than "Target creature, target creature, and target creature get +1/+1 until end of turn" , though of course that wording would have been super awkward).



Interesting.  That's not what I expected.  Thanks for the explanation.

I have to say I'm impressed! Big Names here and much disagreeing!
CR doesn't help anymore here. It's obvious we'll need an [o] ruling but, for the record, I'll side with Kedar, Robvalue, Argus and (perhaps?) Inori and Jeff:

No matter haw many ways you kill a cat, it only dies once. One Regeneration shield should suffice!


Totem Armor might concentrate the destruction effect «twice» on one object; it still gets destroyed once.

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If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one million, I might get away with it;

If I wish to steal even more and still go unnoticed, I need to make the loot bigger.

 

Now you know why taxes always go up.

 

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I've been following this all today and I initially thought that based on the "Perform actions in order written" rule would tell us to perform 'Destroy target creature' then 'Destroy target artifact'. But after looking into that possibility it looked much more to me as one action that is being performed simultaneously on 4 targets. Which means one regen is enough.
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