Mindsculpter needs to leave.

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Welp, it's been a great summer for Magic. Actually it hasn't. Sculpting Summer has been one of the worst summers since Mirroden. Every standard deck needs at least two mindsculpters, preferably four, and if you don't have the cash to shell out for them, you lose. I don't mind facing control, I'm an aggro player, but control players are cool with me, what's not cool is the fact that I need to shell out the better part of 300 dollars just to win at tournaments. It's not fun.

Honestly Wizards, there was no excuse for releasing Jace Mindsculpter if you wanted to have a healthy battlecruiser magic format. He's broken and everyone knows it. Anything with a repeatable brainstorm and a boomerang mixed together is going to be freaking borked and Jace is.

Ban his ass please WoTC. It's the only way to rescue this summer of crappy standard play.
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Anything with a repeatable brainstorm and a boomerang mixed together is going to be freaking borked.


Now if that were true, maybe he'd be a little too broken, but this sounds like a whine that you don't have enough money to buy him. If you're an aggro player, just stick with RDW or Jund.

Welp, it's been a great summer for Magic. Actually it hasn't. Sculpting Summer has been one of the worst summers since Mirroden. Every standard deck needs at least two mindsculpters, preferably four, and if you don't have the cash to shell out for them, you lose. I don't mind facing control, I'm an aggro player, but control players are cool with me, what's not cool is the fact that I need to shell out the better part of 300 dollars just to win at tournaments. It's not fun.

Honestly Wizards, there was no excuse for releasing Jace Mindsculpter if you wanted to have a healthy battlecruiser magic format. He's broken and everyone knows it. Anything with a repeatable brainstorm and a boomerang mixed together is going to be freaking borked and Jace is.

Ban his ass please WoTC. It's the only way to rescue this summer of crappy standard play.

TLDR:

I Cannot think of a deck that can effectively beat a control deck with Blue in it, So please ban the card that makes the deck perform at its best.

As standard sits right now it is more Balanced than I have seen it in several rotations with more decks viable in one way or another.

@OP: If you cannot beat JTMS, then you really are either a bad player, or use a bad deck. RDW out paces him, Jund Outpaces him, Hell even Vampires can outpace him. U/B Control can well control him. Titan ramp goes around him. Valakut ignores him.  Pyromancer Ascension goes through them. Super friends goes through him. Really in all honesty, if JTMS is what makes you lose EVERY game you play, you really need to either learn to play, or quit.
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Some of your statements are true.  The fact is, he's retardedly expensive and incredibly powerful.  But if you want a deck that beat Jace decks, play RDW, Jund (meh), Pyromancer's Ascension, Valakut, Fauna Shaman Naya, Naya/RG Destructive force, or Boros.  All of those decks are very powerful in their own way, and definitely don't need Jace.

Before M11 was released, I had some of the same complaints as you do (and they got worse when they spoiled mana leak).  You either had to play a Jace deck, Jund, or you weren't winning.  As of right now, standard is incredibly diverse and balanced, with no one deck dominating the format.
Personally, I'm disliking Valakut a lot more than Jace at the moment.  Really wish they'd made it legendary.
just play bloodbraid elf
In my opinion Jace is no where near as present as Bloodbraid Elf was in the Jund heavy meta. Standard is a pendulum that swings back and forth. I was playing blue when blue wasn't cool (well because it sorta stunk) and the meta is swinging back into an environment that I like. If you are unhappy with the healthy change of scenery you can exit and return when blue is once again getting its face smashed in and believe me that is probably about 2 years away.

The Sculptor Summer is being celebrated by as many as it is being reviled by. I am, like others here, surprised you do not continue to do well with your previous weapon of choice (be it Jund or RDW) as those decks continue to do well against decks like WU. You may not be beating up on blue as easily, but that is because the decks are much more eventually matched. Sounds to me like you need to work on your playing against Jace. Think of it as an opportunity to hone your play skills and challenge yourself.

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Personally, I'm disliking Valakut a lot more than Jace at the moment.  Really wish they'd made it legendary.



Valakut has been around for a year, it just didn't cause problems until they paired it with a 6/6 Trampling double-super-tutor.
Lol go look at the MTGO dailies atm, there are far less Jace's than Fauna Shamans running around.
look, i understand that jace is powerful and probably too powerful.  i've used him extensively and i even think he's way too powerful and strong a card for the health of the game, but the OP's original argument just sounds like the whinings of someone who simply can't afford jace and is forced to play aggro, whether he likes aggro or not.

lets put it this way, do you hate naya shaman decks too?  or are they too expensive and you hate them and think they're too powerful too?

its one thing to understand and put forth legitimate arguments against jace (and planeswalkers in general as i have done EXTENSIVELY), but to simply hate it because it like $80 doesn't really solve anything other than further point out the problem of the mythic rarity (and this isn't to say we should start that argument again, its been done and needs time to naturally resurrect itself)

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Jace was a lot scarier when we didn't have mana leak or fauna shaman, or even the titans for that matter. Now, he's about the same power level as BSA was before WWK came out.

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Jace was a lot scarier when we didn't have mana leak or fauna shaman, or even the titans for that matter. Now, he's about the same power level as BSA was before WWK came out.


eh, its still much more powerful than that, i think...

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Jace is good, not broken. Hate Jace? Play Boros.

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Jace was a lot scarier when we didn't have mana leak or fauna shaman, or even the titans for that matter. Now, he's about the same power level as BSA was before WWK came out.


eh, its still much more powerful than that, i think...



Much? Not really. He definitely warped the format by forcing a LOT of decks to make use of hasty or quick beaters. Seriously, most of the aggro decks have a pretty clear goal in mind - "how quickly can I get past a Wall of Omens?".

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Jace was a lot scarier when we didn't have mana leak or fauna shaman, or even the titans for that matter. Now, he's about the same power level as BSA was before WWK came out.


eh, its still much more powerful than that, i think...



Much? Not really. He definitely warped the format by forcing a LOT of decks to make use of hasty or quick beaters. Seriously, most of the aggro decks have a pretty clear goal in mind - "how quickly can I get past a Wall of Omens?".



Um false, people play creatures with the KEYWORD haste because they are GOOD creatures. Example:

[C]GOBLIN GUIDE[/C]
[C]VENGEVINE[/C]
[C]FIRES OF YAVIMAYA[/C]
[C]AVALANCHE RIDERS[/C]
[C]GOBLIN RUINBLASTER[/C]
[C]BLOODBRAID ELF[/C]
[C]BALL LIGHTNING[/C]
[C]GROUNDBREAKER[/C]
[C]HELL'S THUNDER[/C]
[C]TIMBERMARE[/C]
[C]SPARK ELEMENTAL[/C]

See the point? Cards with Haste see play because they are just GOOD. Jace being good is not related.
old quotes from the Worldwake talk: Mike Turian: While Mark Rosewater made Tarmogoyf, I made Tarmogoyf what he is today Mark Rosewater: Would we ever reprint Tarmogoyf? Maybe.

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174 How many of your friendships have lasted more than ten years? Which of your current friendships do you still feel will be important to you ten years from now?
Personally, I'm disliking Valakut a lot more than Jace at the moment.  Really wish they'd made it legendary.



Valakut has been around for a year, it just didn't cause problems until they paired it with a 6/6 Trampling double-super-tutor.



Hence the at the moment   Of course, without Valakut, the 6/6 trampling super-tutor wouldn't be as good as he is either.

That said, even without the green titan, I still feel Valakut (and the 4 others) should be legendary.  They are specific locations.  Doesn't really make sense to have multiples of them from a flavor perspective.

edit: fixed a typo...without Valakut, not with.
Personally, I'm disliking Valakut a lot more than Jace at the moment.  Really wish they'd made it legendary.



Valakut has been around for a year, it just didn't cause problems until they paired it with a 6/6 Trampling double-super-tutor.



Hence the at the moment   Of course, with Valakut, the 6/6 trampling super-tutor wouldn't be as good as he is either.

That said, even without the green titan, I still feel Valakut (and the 4 others) should be legendary.  They are specific locations.  Doesn't really make sense to have multiples of them from a flavor perspective.




I totally agree!
old quotes from the Worldwake talk: Mike Turian: While Mark Rosewater made Tarmogoyf, I made Tarmogoyf what he is today Mark Rosewater: Would we ever reprint Tarmogoyf? Maybe.

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174 How many of your friendships have lasted more than ten years? Which of your current friendships do you still feel will be important to you ten years from now?


Um false, people play creatures with the KEYWORD haste because they are GOOD creatures. Example:

[C]GOBLIN GUIDE[/C]
[C]VENGEVINE[/C]
[C]FIRES OF YAVIMAYA[/C]
[C]AVALANCHE RIDERS[/C]
[C]GOBLIN RUINBLASTER[/C]
[C]BLOODBRAID ELF[/C]
[C]BALL LIGHTNING[/C]
[C]GROUNDBREAKER[/C]
[C]HELL'S THUNDER[/C]
[C]TIMBERMARE[/C]
[C]SPARK ELEMENTAL[/C]




And the point just went over your head. The point is that hasty creatures beat planeswalkers, and this standard is largely defined by planeswalkers. Yet you link a bunch of examples of non standard-legal dudes as a counterpoint? No one was debating the effectiveness of haste in a vacuum.


See the point? Cards with Haste see play because they are just GOOD. Jace being good is not related.



I could link just as many standard-legal haste creatures that AREN'T played, because they are too slow or too weak. Haste is relevent only when you can use them effectively, which is why veggie and BBE are so good. Veggie beats WoOmens and trades with just about everything. BBE into sparkmage has the same effect. Pair them together, and you have complete sweeper recovery immediately after a sweeper. That's the point.

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Um false, people play creatures with the KEYWORD haste because they are GOOD creatures. Example:

[C]GOBLIN GUIDE[/C]
[C]VENGEVINE[/C]
[C]FIRES OF YAVIMAYA[/C]
[C]AVALANCHE RIDERS[/C]
[C]GOBLIN RUINBLASTER[/C]
[C]BLOODBRAID ELF[/C]
[C]BALL LIGHTNING[/C]
[C]GROUNDBREAKER[/C]
[C]HELL'S THUNDER[/C]
[C]TIMBERMARE[/C]
[C]SPARK ELEMENTAL[/C]




And the point just went over your head. The point is that hasty creatures beat planeswalkers, and this standard is largely defined by planeswalkers. Yet you link a bunch of examples of non standard-legal dudes as a counterpoint? No one was debating the effectiveness of haste in a vacuum.


See the point? Cards with Haste see play because they are just GOOD. Jace being good is not related.



I could link just as many standard-legal haste creatures that AREN'T played, because they are too slow or too weak. Haste is relevent only when you can use them effectively, which is why veggie and BBE are so good. Veggie beats WoOmens and trades with just about everything. BBE into sparkmage has the same effect. Pair them together, and you have complete sweeper recovery immediately after a sweeper. That's the point.



Obviously there was a communication break-down. I am not going to fault either of us, because that' flaming and counter-productive.

So, the only point I was trying to make by listing a lot of previously and/or currently played (don't act like Bloodbraid, Cunning, Vengevine, and Goblin Guide are not standard legal) is that they are only played because they are good cards... Jace does NOT directly change how good they are. More so, they change how good HE is. Most were played before Jace and are still played now because they are good. Jace does NOT effect that.

On Sweeper Recovery:
CASCADE is why Bloodbraid into almost ANYTHING is good post sweeper. it quickly rebuilds the army you lost.

On Vengevine "trades":
Vengevine doesn't trade with "everything", actually it loses or fails to a number of the well played larger creatures (Baneslayer, any Titan, the appropriate sized Knight Of the Reliquary, Gideon, Wall Of Denial).... Vengevine is good because it doesn't STAY dead. You can trade two Vengevine for a Grave Titan, because then you can still revive them... It's not a favorable trade short term, but it's reasonable enough that it's worth making (provided you can reanimate the Vines again). I mean, really this isn't a point worth arguing, so if you want to say Vengevine is good because it trades with stuff, I guess I should just let it go... it doesn't matter why you think it's good, as long as you have enough sense to play it when available (which you do).

So what's the point of all this or arguing? We agree that haste is good, Vengevine is good, and Jace is good.

If I am not mistaken we also both believe that he is not a horrible thing to have in the meta. Sometimes, yes he can force you to overextend, but generally he won't just up and win many games out of no where... that's Elspeth!
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174 How many of your friendships have lasted more than ten years? Which of your current friendships do you still feel will be important to you ten years from now?

What you actually mean, is that you hate Mythic rarity, since Jace would have topped out at like £25 without mythic rarity....


Why not shell out for P. Titans intead?  lol
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What you actually mean, is that you hate Mythic rarity, since Jace would have topped out at like £25 without mythic rarity....


Why not shell out for P. Titans intead?  lol



Grave is so much better though... I mean, in abstract... in reality it depends on your deck
old quotes from the Worldwake talk: Mike Turian: While Mark Rosewater made Tarmogoyf, I made Tarmogoyf what he is today Mark Rosewater: Would we ever reprint Tarmogoyf? Maybe.

I am Blue/Green


whatcolor_isblue.jpg

174 How many of your friendships have lasted more than ten years? Which of your current friendships do you still feel will be important to you ten years from now?

What you actually mean, is that you hate Mythic rarity, since Jace would have topped out at like £25 without mythic rarity....


Why not shell out for P. Titans intead?  lol



Grave is so much better though... I mean, in abstract... in reality it depends on your deck



I'll die a happy man if I never see this statement again. "good in a vacuum" means jack. Grave titan has 2 homes in mediocre decks right now, while sun titan and primeval titan fit in at least 5 archetypes, a few of which are top notch. Vomiting up grizzly bears is nice, but it doesn't win you the game as fast as bringing back a 6/6 KotR, or dealing 24 damage through valakut nonsense.

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there's no way to deal 24 damage with primeval titan and only six lands on the battlefield
there's no way to deal 24 damage with primeval titan and only six lands on the battlefield




And I said there were only 6 lands on the battlefield when? The typical valakut deck deals that damage after they swing in with the primeval, since it lets them either grab 4 valakuts then blow them out with a ramp or a mountain played from hand, or they grab 2 valakuts, tutor 2 mountains on the swing, and then play a land from hand for 18 total damage.



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What you actually mean, is that you hate Mythic rarity, since Jace would have topped out at like £25 without mythic rarity....


Why not shell out for P. Titans intead?  lol



Grave is so much better though... I mean, in abstract... in reality it depends on your deck



I'll die a happy man if I never see this statement again. "good in a vacuum" means jack. Grave titan has 2 homes in mediocre decks right now, while sun titan and primeval titan fit in at least 5 archetypes, a few of which are top notch. Vomiting up grizzly bears is nice, but it doesn't win you the game as fast as bringing back a 6/6 KotR, or dealing 24 damage through valakut nonsense.



So Jund is a mediocre deck?
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Actually, Jund is not as good as it used to be...

Grave Titan is in some very good Esper Control lists though...

@Razor
Not to sound rude, but I think you are coming off a bit too strong. The important thing to remember is the pilot makes any deck better. Just because you see people losing with Esper or Jund doesn't mean they are bad decks... I see people lose with good decks all the time, because good decks don't cover up a lack of play skill.

Also, we can talk about the dream plays and blow-outs all we want... They happen sometimes, I mean... people go Blightning, Bloodbraid into Blightning, Bloodbraid into Pulse too... That doesn't mean it's the norm, or reality of every time the deck is played... (though it does feel that way sometimes). I think you're a good player, I know I am a good player... and frankly we're wasting time shooting the shhhh about which is "better" or how good/bad deck name is.

Grave Titan is simply put the strongest titan in raw power. It's 10 power/toughness for six mana, that can swing for 6 damage and then leave you with 4 2/2 blockers... THINK ABOUT THAT.

However, game state will dictate the best. Frost can stop any of the other five no problem. Sun can turn your graveyard into a toolbox. Primeval is a ramp machine, and is the linch-pin of a "hot" archetype right now. Inferno can blow out weenie/aggro decks because of it's Arch Lightning ability if you can land it quickly.
old quotes from the Worldwake talk: Mike Turian: While Mark Rosewater made Tarmogoyf, I made Tarmogoyf what he is today Mark Rosewater: Would we ever reprint Tarmogoyf? Maybe.

I am Blue/Green


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174 How many of your friendships have lasted more than ten years? Which of your current friendships do you still feel will be important to you ten years from now?
there's no way to deal 24 damage with primeval titan and only six lands on the battlefield




And I said there were only 6 lands on the battlefield when? The typical valakut deck deals that damage after they swing in with the primeval, since it lets them either grab 4 valakuts then blow them out with a ramp or a mountain played from hand, or they grab 2 valakuts, tutor 2 mountains on the swing, and then play a land from hand for 18 total damage.





if you're waiting for more lands before playing green titan, than he's already slower than the other titans.

if you play him as soon as you can he has to attack twice to do 24 by himself, any titan is doing half that anyway with their big body

the point is, really, that all the titans are quite powerful if they swing twice. the best titan will be the one that is most meaningful with just the comes-into-play trigger, and usually that'll be the black titan since it's the only one that is guaranteed to have a lasting & imediate effect on every matchup (except day of judgement, which 2% of decks are running 2 of these days)


this isn't a dies-to-removal argument, aggro can easily attack through one 6/6 but 3 creatures is different, frost titan doesn't kill anything permanantly so you can't trade with him and remain on top, sun titan rellies on your graveyard to be good which isn't a reliable source, and primeval titan forces your deck so really he only is good in one deck making him a niche card and not a general powerhouse. this isn't in-a-vacuum it's talking about what makes cards good, if you look at tarmogoyf you se how he's splashable and efficient so good in every deck that can play him, but look at knight of the reliquary and he's not splashable and forces your manabase so can fit in half the decks just for that.
it's really only inferno titan and grave titan that can go in any deck of their color so in my eyes they're the best two, the other three limit what deck you can play with them. If you want to talk about which deck is best it's different, and changes from week to week. but I'm talking about which card is best.



Wall of text aside, you're losing sight of the argument. The point is that is certifiably goofy to attempt to label ANY of the titans "the best of the cycle". All 5 of them have seen the top 8 now. Furthermore, even attempting to find out which one is best in a vacuum is one of the worst ways to approach magic, since the first thing you learn about magic is that every card is meant to be played with other cards.

I'm not making that statement as some sort of fluffy philosophical blather. It's the basis of deckbuilding. So every time I see someone spout nonesense about how "X titan is clearly better than the rest" it makes me shake my head.

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Try playing a Primeval Titan with an uncracked Khalni Heart on the field.  24 damage the next turn is a pretty reasonable amount, and that situation is not too far fetched.  I'm really getting tired of all this "Valakut isn't a real deck" nonsense.  It sports a high win percentage against Jund and Fauna Shaman Naya, a winnable matchup (50/50 or slightly better) against Mythic variants and UW, and its only bad matchups are RDW and Pyro, both of which aren't shutouts by any means.  I actually haven't dropped a match to RDW or Boros yet.

While Grave Titan is theoretically better than Primeval Titan, it just doesn't have a good home right now.  Primeval works perfectly with the cards we already have in the set, and thus had a ready home.  It just happened to be one that was stupidly powerful.
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@Razor
There is a line between arguing a point, and being belligerent. There is a best and worst of the cycle. It's about the card strength and flexibility. The strength of the abilities, flexibility in what decks you can use it in, and the overall value you get out of the card when you use it.

Grave Titan, if you ask around to GOOD players is generally the strongest titan. It being a black card is quite relevant (Path and Terminate are the only instant speed answers to it). I don't see why you are arguing with the guaranteed 10 power with a possible 4 more just for resolving it. This doesn't take away from any of the other titans, it is just a statement of the card's obvious raw power.

I ranked Frost second because it beats any other titan and CAN win races. Locking down a single large creature is pretty good, and it's Shroud-lite ability is amazing. Did I tell you the story about how I resolved two Frost Titan and beat through an Iona and a Kozilek to win? No other titan could do that.

Sun Titan, Primeval, and Inferno are all good as well, but outside of the raw power of Grave, you truly have to make the cards work for you instead of just sticking it in a deck and winning.
old quotes from the Worldwake talk: Mike Turian: While Mark Rosewater made Tarmogoyf, I made Tarmogoyf what he is today Mark Rosewater: Would we ever reprint Tarmogoyf? Maybe.

I am Blue/Green


whatcolor_isblue.jpg

174 How many of your friendships have lasted more than ten years? Which of your current friendships do you still feel will be important to you ten years from now?
The only thing that's clear is that the Red one is the weakest.

/thread 

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The only thing that's clear is that the Red one is the weakest.

/thread 



Normally, yes... it's good on sideboard or as a 1-of in Naya (collar it up and it's really GG).
old quotes from the Worldwake talk: Mike Turian: While Mark Rosewater made Tarmogoyf, I made Tarmogoyf what he is today Mark Rosewater: Would we ever reprint Tarmogoyf? Maybe.

I am Blue/Green


whatcolor_isblue.jpg

174 How many of your friendships have lasted more than ten years? Which of your current friendships do you still feel will be important to you ten years from now?
The only thing that's clear is that the Red one is the weakest.

/thread 



Normally, yes... it's good on sideboard or as a 1-of in Naya (collar it up and it's really GG).


Yeah, but the general problem with it is that it comes down way too late against most of the decks when you want it.

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The only thing that's clear is that the Red one is the weakest.

/thread 



Normally, yes... it's good on sideboard or as a 1-of in Naya (collar it up and it's really GG).


Yeah, but the general problem with it is that it comes down way too late against most of the decks when you want it.



Turn 3 or 4 isn't too late most of the time. You want it versus Naya Mirror or versus Red/Green tokens... occasionally mono-green ramp decks or elves. It's just an arc lightning on the stick until it swings.

EDIT: Oh, and it's AMAZING versus Dredgevine decks... all those tasty little 0/1 targets
old quotes from the Worldwake talk: Mike Turian: While Mark Rosewater made Tarmogoyf, I made Tarmogoyf what he is today Mark Rosewater: Would we ever reprint Tarmogoyf? Maybe.

I am Blue/Green


whatcolor_isblue.jpg

174 How many of your friendships have lasted more than ten years? Which of your current friendships do you still feel will be important to you ten years from now?
The only thing that's clear is that the Red one is the weakest.

/thread 


no sun titan is

inferno titan is actually the second strongest, but the meta pushes him to fourth in terms of strength since primeval titan has valakut and thus is stronger, and grave titan deals with vengevine and wall of omens much better
although it's close between inferno and grave in the meta because inferno is really good against planeswalkers.

Inferno better than Sunny T? That's just crazy talk.

Sun Titan does EVERYTHING the other titans do, which is the point. It doesn't have as much raw power in any one facet, but it has massive versatility, getting you lands, creatures, kill spells(capsule) etc. And anyone who's played competitive magic knows versatility is great, which is why Jace.2 is so good, since it does several things.

Grave Titan makes men, that's pretty unimpressive in the grand scheme of things. Sun titan recurs your Knights and Pridemages, much better then grizzly bears.
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ST is great, but he's still the third best.

I'm still pretty sure Frosty is the worst, he's just pretty weak for 6 mana 
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I think all the titans have different niches.

Frosty is not so great in most decks, Horse feathers is an exception, since he's basically GG when he comes down.

Sun Titan is quite good in UW, but he's better with more to bring back, like creatures and removal(capsule) etc.

Grave Titan is only ever just men.

P. Titan is just Valakut or Eldrazi, that's it in standard. If we got some nice cards like Glacial Chasm etc, then it would be of more use.

Inferno Titan is just arc lightning and a man. Nothing more. He's not really going to get better by what you put in the deck, like grave titan, his power level is set by the card itself, not the deck like the others.
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Saying which Titan is the worst is like saying which 100,000 sports car is the best. They are all good and comparing them is silly,
And it's said that youth's ,well only tragedy Is being unoriginal
89522235 wrote:
niche's solution to everything is always MOAR BLACK! "ok, my legacy mono black control deck is getting hated out by light of day..." "MOAR BLACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"