Worshiping Dead Gods

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A Dragon magazine article entitled "Dead Gods" goes into some detail on the worship of dead deities by divine characters:
www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/d...

It validates what was already known to be RAW: divine characters that worship a deity don't lose their powers if that deity dies.  

More interestingly though it explains that it's even possible to ordain new divine characters *after* the deity has died... or as they say "it allows the character to worship and serve an unusual deity".

My elf cleric who claims he's worshiping Mystra feels a bit more justified now!

The rules in LFR don't change of course -- you still have to worship a deity that's alive.  Or rather, the LFR rules haven't changed yet... given FR's sudden amount of dead deities it actually seems much more likely that this campaign world would have a large amount of priests worshiping dead deities.  LFR just doesn't reflect that yet.
Check out the author.
Check out the author.

Indeed!

Just because the author is involved in LFR, does not mean the article automatically applies to LFR ;) Regardless, for now the rules are as they are. If they change, it will be noted in the character creation rules. The article also says that it is up to the DM to decide whether or not new worshippers can be ordained and what the requirements are for this to work.
Just because the author is involved in LFR, does not mean the article automatically applies to LFR ;)

Agreed, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise if it seemed like that.  What I am happy to see though is that people heavily involved in LFR are the ones writing these type of articles (and I personally think it fits FR like a glove).  I look hopeful towards the new CCG.

It validates what was already known to be RAW: divine characters that worship a deity don't lose their powers if that deity dies.  

More interestingly though it explains that it's even possible to ordain new divine characters *after* the deity has died... or as they say "it allows the character to worship and serve an unusual deity".



And of course one must remember that this is also core fluff and doesn't necessarily apply to the FR. 

As a side note... good lord, what is it with Mystra?  Seriously... someone needs to find her corpse and douse her in balefire so she never existed.  Good riddance. 
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf

And of course one must remember that this is also core fluff and doesn't necessarily apply to the FR. 



It is not Core fluff, it was explained to me to be the intended Core rules.
It may not apply in LFR, due to campaign rules (we need to keep things manageable), but it is a core rule that when a god dies, a PC cleric keeps its powers. Note that I wrote PC - I added a paragraph to the article explaining how *some* deities may enforce rituals of investment that allow for NPC priests to loose their powers if they displease their deity or the deity dies. That however never applies to PCs.

An example of a deity that might demand such rituals (note I am speculating here) is Lolth (there actually exists a NPC that has lost her divine power due to Lolth's whims, so it stands to reason she has ways). Not every drow may initially use those rituals, of course, but after a week of being visited by demons and Yochlols every night, most priestesses migth get the message...

Gomez
but it is a core rule that when a god dies, a PC cleric keeps its powers.



I certainly wasn't challenging that notion.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
As a side note... good lord, what is it with Mystra?  Seriously... someone needs to find her corpse and douse her in balefire so she never existed.  Good riddance. 

You mean you have a hard time believing that FR would have adherents that want to worship a deity of magic?  I mean it's not like it's an obscure or niche area of interest ;)

It's one of the bigger portfolios, and not having a full-time deity for it is a huge gaping hole in the FR Pantheon.  And don't start with Corellon.  He's a great deity and all, but he's a bit too eladrin-focused and out to vanquish evil (FRPG 151) to ever be worshipped by those of all alignments and races who work magic.  Mystra on the other hand, has had many different alignments over her various incarnations, but one thing has always remained true: she's had worshipers of all alignments and has backed evil-aligned spellcasters (such as Larloch) as well as good-aligned spellcasters.  She cares first-and-foremost about the Art (capital A).

Maybe this helps you to understand why some people in FR are passionate about Mystra.  It's not like there's not good cause for it.
In a way Selune and Shar are the godesses of magic now. The first for the unaligned and good worshippers, the second for the unaligned and evil. It is just a shame the FRCG does not go into the details of this...

Maybe this helps you to understand why some people in FR are passionate about Mystra.  It's not like there's not good cause for it.



My statement is more form the observance that Mystra is exceedingly popular and she's a rather boring deity.  IMHO of course.    She's involved with everything, her chosen were all Mary Sues of authors and creators of the FR... she just has a ton of fanbois and it's something I cannot wrap my head around. 

I suppose it makes sense from the stand point that those who are really passionate about the FR are those who really like the lore and Mystra has been an integral part of the lore since the beginning.  I would say it's because she and her Chosen are constantly sticking their noses into everything, but YMMV. 
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Sounds like a good Epic-level My Realms adventure: Restore Mystra.
Sounds like a good Epic-level My Realms adventure: Destroy Mystra.



Fixed that for ya.  ;)
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Sounds like a good Epic-level My Realms adventure: Destroy Mystra.



Fixed that for ya.  ;)



Sigh...too late...
I suppose it makes sense from the stand point that those who are really passionate about the FR are those who really like the lore and Mystra has been an integral part of the lore since the beginning.  I would say it's because she and her Chosen are constantly sticking their noses into everything, but YMMV. 

I think we've found the truth -- don't hate the deity OOC because you can't stand her Chosen.

It seems like you recognize there is plenty of reason to venerate Mystra based on the lore, you just don't like the fanbois and the idol worship of her Chosen by authors.

I don't care for her Chosen either, but I'm able to separate the two.
Sounds like a good Epic-level My Realms adventure: Destroy Mystra.

Fixed that for ya.  ;)

Could be neat.  One epic quest to bring her back, while another evil group is on a quest to destroy her as soon as she is reborn.

I suppose it makes sense from the stand point that those who are really passionate about the FR are those who really like the lore and Mystra has been an integral part of the lore since the beginning.  I would say it's because she and her Chosen are constantly sticking their noses into everything, but YMMV. 

I think we've found the truth -- don't hate the deity OOC because you can't stand her Chosen.

It seems like you recognize there is plenty of reason to venerate Mystra based on the lore, you just don't like the fanbois and the idol worship of her Chosen by authors.

I don't care for her Chosen either, but I'm able to separate the two.



It's not just the idol worship and fanbois... I can't stand her "in character"/"in lore" either.   When I heard that for 4e they killed her off and mentioned their plans were for her to stay dead I did a little jig. 
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Perhaps a Battle Interactive with two paths: restore and destroy.
Calculate points for each side and determine which is victorious.
Perhaps a Battle Interactive with two paths: restore and destroy.
Calculate points for each side and determine which is victorious.

What reason would non-evil PCs have to destroy Mystra?

Perhaps a Battle Interactive with two paths: restore and destroy.
Calculate points for each side and determine which is victorious.

What reason would non-evil PCs have to destroy Mystra?





I can think of many reasons, but the simplest one is that restoring Mystra could be just as dangerous to the post-Spellplague Realms as destroying her was to the pre-Spellplague Realms...
John du Bois Living Forgotten Realms Writing Director, Netheril story area Follow me on The Twitter: @JohnduBois Follow my presence on The Intertubes: johncdubois.wordpress.com
Yeah -- it's not a question of "restore or destroy," but rather "restore or block the restoration."

That being said, I'm quite sure that the heroic and fan-favorite angle would involve restoring her.  It'd be a cool arc, but the end result is awfully predictable.
Perhaps a Battle Interactive with two paths: restore and destroy.
Calculate points for each side and determine which is victorious.

What reason would non-evil PCs have to destroy Mystra?




To make sure her corpse doesn't come back to life and cause more apocalyptic events resulting in the deaths of millions of people.  And so people don't have to deal with her and those meddling kids anymore.

I bet Ao's kickin' himself for raising Midnight to godhood.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
So, what you do is have that battle interactive... then if Mystra is "restored", have it really be Shar recovering the weave and becoming super powerful.

Almost self-writes up the following battle interactive ;) 
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
Wasn't there a Dragon article wherein Bahamut was killed?  Doesn't that make Bahamut no longer legal for LFR characters to worship?
I always disliked Mystra because I hate the idea that my arcane characters have to worship or appease or get permission from a certain god to use magic.  That's what divine characters are for!  If I wanted to play a cleric, I'd play a cleric.  Arcane characters should be self-reliant; their power is their own.  I agree with Dragon9 in liking the Realms more with Mystra dead.
Wasn't there a Dragon article wherein Bahamut was killed?  Doesn't that make Bahamut no longer legal for LFR characters to worship?



No, you're thinking of the Adventure Path in Dungeon.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
It's a bit more dramatic with her dead.
Why, on the FR changes, changes have ALWAYS to be for good? Why changes can't make the world worse, and why it couldn't be an opportunity?
It's a bit more dramatic with her dead.
Why, on the FR changes, changes have ALWAYS to be for good? Why changes can't make the world worse, and why it couldn't be an opportunity?

You mean like the Shades arriving in Faerun?  You mean like the death of Mystra and a slap on the wrist for Cyric?  You mean like the Spellplague?  You mean like Elistraee dying?

There's plenty of adversity in Faerun
This ADCO, The Knights of Mystic Fire still lives (as LFR outlaws, obviously) because some of us just can't let go!

Heh.  :P

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