Volrath's Shapeshifter and "as it comes into play" effects

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Hi,

I would like to have an answer from a judge as high level as possible because I read differents answers from high lvl judges about this one.
I have a Myojin on top of the graveyard and I play the shapeshifter. Does it get an divinity counter?

In the ruling data of magicthegathering, we could read this:
If the top card in your graveyard is a creature at the time this card enters the battlefield, it enters the battlefield with the appropriate characteristics of that card and will trigger any of its own (or others) enters the battlefield abilities as appropriate. It will not apply any "as enters the battlefield" text on the creature card, however.it changes forms, any "enters the battlefield" abilities of the card it "copies" do not trigger.

But we now see they removed the last past of the old ruling. Could it means that it work?

If we check directly in rules :
613.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 613.1c–d.)
Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a
general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To
determine how and whether these replacement effects apply, check the characteristics of the
permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have
already modified how it enters the battlefield, continuous effects generated by the resolution of
spells or abilities that changed the permanent’s characteristics on the stack (see rule 400.7a), and
continuous effects from the permanent’s own static abilities, but ignoring continuous effects from
any other source that would affect it.

Also, some say that Gavin Duggan (usually a master of the rules) played the deck in a tournement so it must be legal but the head judge didnt agree with him.
Volrath's Shapeshifter
Myojin of Cleansing Fire
This was discussed a ten months ago.

volrath's shapeshifter and myojin of cleansing...

Volrath's Shapeshifter's ability exists only while on the battlefield.  For a replacement effect to occur, its effect must exist before the event it is trying to replace.

See also Crystal Keep thread on Volrath's Shapeshifter.

This was discussed a ten months ago.

volrath's shapeshifter and myojin of cleansing...

Volrath's Shapeshifter's ability exists only while on the battlefield.  For a replacement effect to occur, its effect must exist before the event it is trying to replace.

See also Crystal Keep thread on Volrath's Shapeshifter.



I'm gonna have to call that ruling into question once again,

614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c-d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine how and whether these replacement effects apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield, continuous effects generated by the resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent's characteristics on the stack (see rule 400.7a), and continuous effects from the permanent's own static abilities, but ignoring continuous effects from any other source that would affect it.

The second part in bold is clearly stating that effects like Volrath's Shapeshifter's are taken into accound when determining how and whether enters the battlefield replacement effects apply, so it should be seen as having the full text of the Myojin due to that effect. And thus it's seen as having the ETB ability of the Myojin, and will get the counter.

Although I was not involved in the discussion ten months ago about this card, I was heavily involved with the discussion of the Persist+Clone+Tatterkite scenario, which was decided by this very same rule (even the same parts of it) and in order for that scenario to work as ruled, this *should* work as well, otherwise that ruling *should* be incorrect if the Shapeshifter works as ruled (they can't both be true unless I'm missing something important).
From everything I've looked up, it looks like it should get the counter. It will enter the battlefield AS the other creature, and trigger all enters-the-battlefield abilities related to it.

Myojin of Cleansing Fire has no enters-the-battlefield triggered abilities. It has no triggered abilities at all.
As far as I can determine (and summarize from the last discussion), Volrath's Shapeshifter does not ETB as a Myojin. Rather, it ETB's as Volrath's Shapeshifter, then its continuous effect applies and changes it to a Myojin.

For it to ETB as a Myojin, Volrath's ability would have to work on the Stack, or it would need an additional ability of something like "~ ETB's as a copy of the top card of library if that is a creature card. It retains its abilities."
I think the rule Just another Wizard quoted doesn't really leave any room for doubt. The Shapeshifter has a continuous effect that will change how it looks when it's on the battlefield. As such, applicable replacement effects for its new (future) form, like the Myojin's counter, will take effect.
Rules Nut Advisor
I think the rule Just another Wizard quoted doesn't really leave any room for doubt. The Shapeshifter has a continuous effect that will change how it looks when it's on the battlefield. As such, applicable replacement effects for its new (future) form, like the Myojin's counter, will take effect.

Interesting. You're right, that doesn't leave any space for interpretations. So the last thread died on an incorrect conclusion.
I'm gonna have to call that ruling into question once again,

614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c-d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine how and whether these replacement effects apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield, continuous effects generated by the resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent's characteristics on the stack (see rule 400.7a), and continuous effects from the permanent's own static abilities, but ignoring continuous effects from any other source that would affect it.

The second part in bold is clearly stating that effects like Volrath's Shapeshifter's are taken into accound when determining how and whether enters the battlefield replacement effects apply, so it should be seen as having the full text of the Myojin due to that effect. And thus it's seen as having the ETB ability of the Myojin, and will get the counter.

Although I was not involved in the discussion ten months ago about this card, I was heavily involved with the discussion of the Persist+Clone+Tatterkite scenario, which was decided by this very same rule (even the same parts of it) and in order for that scenario to work as ruled, this *should* work as well, otherwise that ruling *should* be incorrect if the Shapeshifter works as ruled (they can't both be true unless I'm missing something important).


The ability needs to exist as the object is entering the battlefield, not just once it's on the battlefield.  The bolded sentence doesn't allow you to introduce new replacement effects that don't exist yet; it only serves to decide which replacement effects that currently exist can be applied.

I'm not completely sure how Scarwood Treefolk entering the battlefield tapped while being Zombify'd with Yixlid Jailer on the battlefield can be explained under this interpretation.  This is all I found:
603.6e Some permanents have text that reads "[This permanent] enters the battlefield with . . . ," "As [this permanent] enters the battlefield . . . ," "[This permanent] enters the battlefield as . . . ," or "[This permanent] enters the battlefield tapped." Such text is a static ability -- not a triggered ability -- whose effect occurs as part of the event that puts the permanent onto the battlefield.
I'm gonna have to call that ruling into question once again,

614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c-d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine how and whether these replacement effects apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield, continuous effects generated by the resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent's characteristics on the stack (see rule 400.7a), and continuous effects from the permanent's own static abilities, but ignoring continuous effects from any other source that would affect it.

The second part in bold is clearly stating that effects like Volrath's Shapeshifter's are taken into accound when determining how and whether enters the battlefield replacement effects apply, so it should be seen as having the full text of the Myojin due to that effect. And thus it's seen as having the ETB ability of the Myojin, and will get the counter.

Although I was not involved in the discussion ten months ago about this card, I was heavily involved with the discussion of the Persist+Clone+Tatterkite scenario, which was decided by this very same rule (even the same parts of it) and in order for that scenario to work as ruled, this *should* work as well, otherwise that ruling *should* be incorrect if the Shapeshifter works as ruled (they can't both be true unless I'm missing something important).


The ability needs to exist as the object is entering the battlefield, not just once it's on the battlefield.  The bolded sentence doesn't allow you to introduce new replacement effects that don't exist yet; it only serves to decide which replacement effects that currently exist can be applied.

I'm not completely sure how Scarwood Treefolk entering the battlefield tapped while being Zombify'd with Yixlid Jailer on the battlefield can be explained under this interpretation.  This is all I found:
603.6e Some permanents have text that reads "[This permanent] enters the battlefield with . . . ," "As [this permanent] enters the battlefield . . . ," "[This permanent] enters the battlefield as . . . ," or "[This permanent] enters the battlefield tapped." Such text is a static ability -- not a triggered ability -- whose effect occurs as part of the event that puts the permanent onto the battlefield.



It's exactly the same situation. Scarwood Treefolk look at the battlefield and says "When I enter, I will be a Scarwood  Treefolk with 'Scarwood Treefolk enters the battlefield tapped', so I must enter the battlefield tapped". It doesn't care if it had the ability when it was in the graveyard or not , the important thing is that it will have it when it enters the battlefield.

Similarly, Volrath's Shapeshifter looks at the battlefield and says "When I enter the battlefield, I will be a Myojin of whatever-it-is, with 'Myojin of Whatever enters the battlefield with a divinity counter if you played it from your hand'. Well, I was played from the hand, so I must have a dvinity counter when I enter."
Rules Nut Advisor
It's exactly the same situation. Scarwood Treefolk look at the battlefield and says "When I enter, I will be a Scarwood  Treefolk with 'Scarwood Treefolk enters the battlefield tapped', so I must enter the battlefield tapped". It doesn't care if it had the ability when it was in the graveyard or not , the important thing is that it will have it when it enters the battlefield.

Similarly, Volrath's Shapeshifter looks at the battlefield and says "When I enter the battlefield, I will be a Myojin of whatever-it-is, with 'Myojin of Whatever enters the battlefield with a divinity counter if you played it from your hand'. Well, I was played from the hand, so I must have a dvinity counter when I enter."


Except that that's directly counter to the rulings.
@42: I found a post in Rules T&T from 10 months ago about the shapeshifter but it was very short (and agreed with my interpretation). Apparently it was the rules changes for Lorwyn so that Changeling worked as intended that reversed the earlier behavior to what I am arguing.

@Crandor: An interesting concept, I'm going to argue that existence doesn't matter, as long as it sees the ability when the check 614.12 is talking about is performed, it is seen as having that ability and therefore it will then apply. This gets right back to the persist-Clone-Tatterkite scenario, in that scenario the Tatterkite doesn't get a counter because it has that continuous effect that doesn't allow counters to be placed on it (which according to 120.5f is what ETB replacement effects that have something ETB with a counter on it). The Tatterkite's ability is a static ability that applies while its on the battlefield, and is taken into account when determining how the replacement effect from persist applies.
It's exactly the same situation. Scarwood Treefolk look at the battlefield and says "When I enter, I will be a Scarwood  Treefolk with 'Scarwood Treefolk enters the battlefield tapped', so I must enter the battlefield tapped". It doesn't care if it had the ability when it was in the graveyard or not , the important thing is that it will have it when it enters the battlefield.

Similarly, Volrath's Shapeshifter looks at the battlefield and says "When I enter the battlefield, I will be a Myojin of whatever-it-is, with 'Myojin of Whatever enters the battlefield with a divinity counter if you played it from your hand'. Well, I was played from the hand, so I must have a dvinity counter when I enter."


Except that that's directly counter to the rulings.


Except that the 2nd example given below rule 614.12 says...

Example: Yixlid Jailer says "Cards in graveyards have no abilities." Scarwood Treefolk says "Scarwood Treefolk enters the battlefield tapped." A Scarwood Treefolk that's put onto the battlefield from a graveyard enters the battlefield tapped.

This is because of the phrase "As it would exist on the battlefield" in 614.12, which means Yixalid Jailor's effect isn't seen when looking at the Treefolk.
It's exactly the same situation. Scarwood Treefolk look at the battlefield and says "When I enter, I will be a Scarwood  Treefolk with 'Scarwood Treefolk enters the battlefield tapped', so I must enter the battlefield tapped". It doesn't care if it had the ability when it was in the graveyard or not , the important thing is that it will have it when it enters the battlefield.

Similarly, Volrath's Shapeshifter looks at the battlefield and says "When I enter the battlefield, I will be a Myojin of whatever-it-is, with 'Myojin of Whatever enters the battlefield with a divinity counter if you played it from your hand'. Well, I was played from the hand, so I must have a dvinity counter when I enter."


Except that that's directly counter to the rulings.



How so?

614.12. ... To determine how and whether these replacement effects apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account...  continuous effects from the permanent's own static abilities...

The Shapeshifter's ability is a continuous effect that affects how it would exist on the battlefield. It applies.
Rules Nut Advisor
@Crandor: An interesting concept, I'm going to argue that existence doesn't matter, as long as it sees the ability when the check 614.12 is talking about is performed, it is seen as having that ability and therefore it will then apply. This gets right back to the persist-Clone-Tatterkite scenario, in that scenario the Tatterkite doesn't get a counter because it has that continuous effect that doesn't allow counters to be placed on it (which according to 120.5f is what ETB replacement effects that have something ETB with a counter on it). The Tatterkite's ability is a static ability that applies while its on the battlefield, and is taken into account when determining how the replacement effect from persist applies.


I was under the impression that Persist still tried to put the -1/-1 counter on it but failed because it was impossible.  I don't think the Tatterkite ability modifies whether the replacement effect part of Persist is applicable.

The fact that 614.12 lists the Yixlid Jailer/Scarwood Treefolk example does seem to imply that the interpretation I wrote above is wrong.  In that case, I don't think there's any way to explain all the rulings based on the CR as it exists now.  Just_another_Wizard is probably right that the previous ruling is incorrect.  Another [O]fficial ruling with an explanation would be nice.

@ TranscientMaster: there's a difference between rules and rulings.

@ TranscientMaster: there's a difference between rules and rulings.



Sorry, I read "rules" when I saw that comment. Still, which ruling does it contradict? The only one it comes close to contradicting is "When it changes forms, any "enters the battlefield" abilities of the card it "copies" do not trigger." At first glance, it could look like a contradiction, but the ruling s referring to when the Shapeshifter changes forms. As in, when the top card of the graveyard changes. It never "changes forms" upon entering the battlefield, for the same reasons a Squire would enter the battlefield as a 2/3 if there's a Glorious Anthem out. There's never a moment where it enters as a 1/2 and "changes" to a 2/3. It enters as a 2/3, just like the Shapeshifter enters as a Myojin.
Rules Nut Advisor

@ TranscientMaster: there's a difference between rules and rulings.



Sorry, I read "rules" when I saw that comment. Still, which ruling does it contradict? The only one it comes close to contradicting is "When it changes forms, any "enters the battlefield" abilities of the card it "copies" do not trigger." At first glance, it could look like a contradiction, but the ruling s referring to when the Shapeshifter changes forms. As in, when the top card of the graveyard changes. It never "changes forms" upon entering the battlefield, for the same reasons a Squire would enter the battlefield as a 2/3 if there's a Glorious Anthem out. There's never a moment where it enters as a 1/2 and "changes" to a 2/3. It enters as a 2/3, just like the Shapeshifter enters as a Myojin.


Well, I was under the impression that there was a ruling saying that Volrath's Shapeshifter wouldn't enter the battlefield with a divinity counter if Myojin of Infinite Rage was the top card of the graveyard.  Isn't the whole point of the thread that that ruling might be wrong?
There is a ruling mentioned in the OP, but I have no idea where it came from. If it was originally the Oracle rulings, it got horribly mangled. If it came from somewhere else, I can't decipher it. In any case, he seems to have gotten contradictory answers in the past.

Regardless of any of this, the official rules and the official rulings seem to agree that the Shapeshifter should get a divinity counter.
Rules Nut Advisor
There is a ruling mentioned in the OP, but I have no idea where it came from. If it was originally the Oracle rulings, it got horribly mangled. If it came from somewhere else, I can't decipher it. In any case, he seems to have gotten contradictory answers in the past.

Regardless of any of this, the official rules and the official rulings seem to agree that the Shapeshifter should get a divinity counter.


Ok, then.  The 10-month-old thread started with a ruling that it gets the counter, then someone said that Gavin changed his mind and issued a contradicting ruling.  614.12 could still use a rewrite because it's (intentionally?) vague, but if we're out of reasons to believe it doesn't get the counter, and we have reasons to believe it does, I'm willing to go with it.
I can really see it either way, but my vote is on it not getting the counter.

Though I do have a hard time justifying the Scarwood Treefolk ruling.  Is that really from 614.12?

Gerdef
Magic Judge Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Rules Theory and Templating: "They may be crazy, but they're good." --Matt Tabak, Rules Manager*

Though I do have a hard time justifying the Scarwood Treefolk ruling.  Is that really from 614.12?

Gerdef



The only reason that it feels confusing is that it doesn't say "enters the battlefield as" like Clone does. The only reason Clone does, though, is to define what it will be when it enters the battlefield. 



More specifically, Clone (and Scarwood) have replacement effects that alter how they ETB. Volrath does not; he has a ability that creates a continuous effect when he's a permanent. But 614.12 instructs us to treat them the same (and as they would be when they become permanents) when choosing whether anything modifies what the permanent does or is when it ETB's.
 
I think you're all overapplying 614.12.  The only reason the part about self-affecting continuous effects was added was to make Changelings work with Sage of Fables et al.

The way I feel it should work is that the Changeling gets the counter, because the Sage of Fables effect exists, and in checking if it applies to the Changeling or not, you see what the changeling would look like after it enters the battlefield.

For Volrath's shapeshifter, however, the effect does not exist until after it enters the battlefield.  So even though it will gain that ability right after it enters, it has yet to enter, and thus, is not affected by the replacement effect.

If I cast Volrath's Shapeshifter with Clone as the top part of my graveyard, I don't get to have it copy a creature when it ETBs, right?

The only thing 614.12 does is say that if I had an effect that said "Myojin's enter the battlefield tapped." and I cast Volrath's Shapeshifter with a Myojin as the top card of my graveyard, then it would ETB tapped.

At least, that's how I interpret it.  I look forward to an [O] ruling.  (Someone did PM this thread to Natedogg, right?)

Gerdef
Magic Judge Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Rules Theory and Templating: "They may be crazy, but they're good." --Matt Tabak, Rules Manager*

The only thing 614.12 does is say that if I had an effect that said "Myojin's enter the battlefield tapped." and I cast Volrath's Shapeshifter with a Myojin as the top card of my graveyard, then it would ETB tapped.

At least, that's how I interpret it.  I look forward to an [O] ruling.  (Someone did PM this thread to Natedogg, right?)

Gerdef



"Enter the Battlefield Tapped" and "Enter the Battlefield with a counter" effects are, except for the result, identical. Both are enters-the-battlefield replacement effects. If you say one works, you are either allowing the other or making some grevious errors in understanding how those rules work.

Regardless, an official ruling would be nice, I suppose.
Rules Nut Advisor
I am aware of the issue and it's currently under discussion. I'll have an answer when I have an answer.

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DCI Level 2 Judge

Questions don't have to make sense, but answers do.

As far as I can tell, The card does NOT come into play as Myojin. It comes in as the Volrath Shapeshifter and then its effect activates.

"When it changes forms, any "enters the battlefield" abilities of the card it "copies" do not trigger."

Is a quote from the gatherer on rulings based on this card. It does not Come back into play as the new Creature, it changes, already in play, into that creature. 

The text on Volrath's says "As long as the top card of your graveyard is a creature card, Volrath's Shapeshifter has the full text of that card and has the text "2: Discard a card." (Volrath's Shapeshifter has that card's name, mana cost, color, types, abilities, power, and toughness.)"

it does NOT enter play as the card it copies, but copies itself once it is on te field.  it would gain the text from myojin to gain the Divinity Counter, but it would not get the counter due to not being played from the hand AS myojin but as the shapeshifter....

atleast thats my two cents on the subject. =/
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"When it changes forms, any "enters the battlefield" abilities of the card it "copies" do not trigger."


This particular Gatherer ruling is irrelevant to the discussion, for two reasons:
(a) It only applies to Volrath's Shapeshifter changing form while it's on the battlefield.  A Shapeshifter that enters the battlefield while a Flametongue Kavu (for example) is on top of your graveyard will trigger.
(b) The Myojin don't have triggered abilities in the first place - they have static abilities that generate replacement effects.  There's nothing to "trigger" in this scenario.
it does NOT enter play as the card it copies, but copies itself once it is on te field.  it would gain the text from myojin to gain the Divinity Counter, but it would not get the counter due to not being played from the hand AS myojin but as the shapeshifter....


While in the end you might be right, this argument doesn't work.  A Clone of a Myojin wasn't "played from the hand as a Myojin" either, but it definitely will get a divinity counter, for the same reason that a Clone of a Clockwork Dragon gets six +1/+1 counters.
"When it changes forms, any "enters the battlefield" abilities of the card it "copies" do not trigger."


This particular Gatherer ruling is irrelevant to the discussion, for two reasons:
(a) It only applies to Volrath's Shapeshifter changing form while it's on the battlefield.  A Shapeshifter that enters the battlefield while a Flametongue Kavu (for example) is on top of your graveyard will trigger.
(b) The Myojin don't have triggered abilities in the first place - they have static abilities that generate replacement effects.  There's nothing to "trigger" in this scenario.
it does NOT enter play as the card it copies, but copies itself once it is on te field.  it would gain the text from myojin to gain the Divinity Counter, but it would not get the counter due to not being played from the hand AS myojin but as the shapeshifter....


While in the end you might be right, this argument doesn't work.  A Clone of a Myojin wasn't "played from the hand as a Myojin" either, but it definitely will get a divinity counter, for the same reason that a Clone of a Clockwork Dragon gets six +1/+1 counters.

Right but doesnt Volrath have to be on the field in order to become a copy of the top card of your graveyard? So it cannot come into play as Myojin, therefore it cannot be played from the hand as myojin, not gaining the counter. Unless its ability is active in your hand, it cannot enter play as the other card.
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Right but doesnt Volrath have to be on the field in order to become a copy of the top card of your graveyard? So it cannot come into play as Myojin, therefore it cannot be played from the hand as myojin, not gaining the counter.



It's enter the battlefeild... not comes into play. It's been over a year since the change.

You seem to have some trouble with the rules here. The Myojin doens't need to be a Myojin when you cast it to have the divinity counter. If you Clone the Myojin, the clone will enter the battlefiled with a divnity counter even though it wasn't a Myojin when it was cast. Myojin really asks "was this card cast from the hand?" not "Was this card named Myogin of Inifinte rage and was it cast from the hand?" 



Thie question is whether the Shapeshifted would enter the battlefeild with a divinity counter.

On one hand the copying ability only works when it's on the battlefeild so the "enter the battlefeild" ability wouldn't exist yet.

On the other hand, the rules imply that a card can "look forwards" to see what it will be like on the battlefeild.

We don't know the answerer yet, because there isn't one.
… and then, the squirrels came.
Right but doesnt Volrath have to be on the field in order to become a copy of the top card of your graveyard?


Indeed; like most abilities of permanents, Volrath's Shapeshifter's text-"copying" ability only works while the Shapeshifter is on the battlefield.  However, look at rule 614.12, which Yarium posted.  That rule states that when determining what CIP replacements are applicable, you look at how the object coming into play will "look" (what characteristics it will have) once on the battlefield - including by applying the object's own static abilities.  By a strict reading of this rule, you check how the Shapeshifter will "look" once on the battlefield, and once on the battlefield, it'll look like a Myojin.

There's some very subtle stuff going on here, which is why Natedogg is consulting with others before giving his [O] ruling.
So it cannot come into play as Myojin


Actually, it most certainly can.  There is no time that the Shapeshifter is on the battlefield that its ability is not active; from the moment it enters the battlefield, it's a Myojin.  For example, Garruk's Packleader will "see" a large creature, rather than an 0/1 Shapeshifter, enter the battlefield (and thus will trigger).
Right but doesnt Volrath have to be on the field in order to become a copy of the top card of your graveyard? So it cannot come into play as Myojin, therefore it cannot be played from the hand as myojin, not gaining the counter.



It's enter the battlefeild... not comes into play. It's been over a year since the change.

You seem to have some trouble with the rules here. The Myojin doens't need to be a Myojin when you cast it to have the divinity counter. If you Clone the Myojin, the clone will enter the battlefiled with a divnity counter even though it wasn't a Myojin when it was cast. Myojin really asks "was this card cast from the hand?" not "Was this card named Myogin of Inifinte rage and was it cast from the hand?" 



Thie question is whether the Shapeshifted would enter the battlefeild with a divinity counter.

On one hand the copying ability only works when it's on the battlefeild so the "enter the battlefeild" ability wouldn't exist yet.

On the other hand, the rules imply that a card can "look forwards" to see what it will be like on the battlefeild.

We don't know the answerer yet, because there isn't one.

The main difference between between Clone and Volrath's Shapeshifter  is Clone Enters the Battlefield AS the card. Volrath's ability activates after being on the battlefield. by the same logic, if you played Volrath's on Turn 3 and on turn 9 Myojin hits the grave due to being milled or whatever and lands ontop Volrath should get the counter. Even if say 5 other creature were 'on top' of your graveyard before then.

You know after reviewing all the rules I have seen, I am going to wait until AFTER Natedogg posts his reply to make any more claims or arguments, There is some deeper stuff going on, like the poster above me said, and Really after rereading the cards question my stance on this.
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@Crandor, although your correct that it's Tatterkite's ability that makes what persist tries to impossible and thus it's ignored. The only way that can work is if Tatterkite's ability is taken into account when determining how persist's replacement effect applies, as Tatterkite's ability only functions on the battlefield.

As for the old thread, it stated that the rules changes for Changelings to work as one would intuit resulted in Vorath's Shapeshifter+Myojin of Cleansing Fire (and other Myojins) to work differently than in the past, the story about Gavin Duggan mention that he was playing a deck using this relation in a tournament (or was going to?) but the head judge disagreed on the interpretation (which is incorrect?).

I'm glad Natedogg is consulting with his peers @wizards on this one, imo 614.12 is one of the hardest rules to parse in all the CR (and theirs not much imo that can be done about this). So its easy to read it incorrectly, and thus make an incorrect ruling. Looking forward to the [O] answer, but from my understanding of how 614.12 is intended to be parsed, it should work and I suspect this is specifically due to the Lorwyn change to this rule.
The way I feel it should work is that the Changeling gets the counter, because the Sage of Fables effect exists, and in checking if it applies to the Changeling or not, you see what the changeling would look like after it enters the battlefield.

For Volrath's shapeshifter, however, the effect does not exist until after it enters the battlefield.  So even though it will gain that ability right after it enters, it has yet to enter, and thus, is not affected by the replacement effect.



Changling isn't really a relevant example - 702.70a tells us that Changelings are all creature types at all times, even if they're sitting a binder 2,500 miles from the game you're playing.

Here's a better example (or at least a more interesting one). You cast Volrath with Dryad Arbor on top of your graveyard. Does Landfall trigger? (I think yes.)
Here's a better example (or at least a more interesting one). You cast Volrath with Dryad Arbor on top of your graveyard. Does Landfall trigger? (I think yes.)

Yes, it triggers, but triggered abilities are a different beast than replacement effects.

Here's a better example (or at least a more interesting one). You cast Volrath with Dryad Arbor on top of your graveyard. Does Landfall trigger? (I think yes.)

Yes, it triggers, but triggered abilities are a different beast than replacement effects.


For it to to trigger, though, it would Volrath would need to ETB as a Land. Not ETB as a creature, then let its static ability turn it into a land.
For it to to trigger, though, it would Volrath would need to ETB as a Land. Not ETB as a creature, then let its static ability turn it into a land.

Yes: as of the first moment it is on the battlefield, it is a land. That is highly relevant for triggered abilities, and not necessarily relevant for enters the battlefield replacement effects.

An enters-the-battlefield triggered ability checks immediately after the creature is on the battlefield and examines what the creature currently looks like. An enters-the-battlefield replacement effect checks during the process of entering the battlefield, and predicts the future using only the things listed in 614.12. Its prediction will not necessarily be exactly the same as what a triggered ability will see due to the last few words of 614.12.
614.12
614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c–d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine how and whether these replacement effects apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield, continuous effects generated by the resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent’s characteristics on the stack (see rule 400.7a), and continuous effects from the permanent’s own static abilities, but ignoring continuous effects from any other source that would affect it.
 
The way I feel it should work is that the Changeling gets the counter, because the Sage of Fables effect exists, and in checking if it applies to the Changeling or not, you see what the changeling would look like after it enters the battlefield.

For Volrath's shapeshifter, however, the effect does not exist until after it enters the battlefield.  So even though it will gain that ability right after it enters, it has yet to enter, and thus, is not affected by the replacement effect.



Changling isn't really a relevant example - 702.70a tells us that Changelings are all creature types at all times, even if they're sitting a binder 2,500 miles from the game you're playing.

Here's a better example (or at least a more interesting one). You cast Volrath with Dryad Arbor on top of your graveyard. Does Landfall trigger? (I think yes.)


But again, when applying replacement effects, it doesn't matter what the rules for Changeling say, what matters is what does the ETB replacement effect 'see,' and that is defined by 614.12. Without the clause "continuous effects from the permanent's own static abilities" it wouldn't be seen as having all creature types when applying replacement effects. So Bramblewood Paragon wouldn't give out +1/+1 counters to Changelings, since its a replacement effect that's causing them to ETB with an additional +1/+1 counter on them.
It will not get the counter. I'll quote current Rules Manager Matt Tabak for a minute:

614.12 refers to replacement abilities that affect how a permanent enters the battlefield. Vs's static ability doesn't do this; it just causes a text-changing continuous effect, so it only applies on the battlefield, so VS doesn't have the Myojin's text as it enters the battlefield, so it doesn't get the counter.



There's a (small) chance the rules will be looked at for the next CR update.

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It will not get the counter. I'll quote current Rules Manager Matt Tabak for a minute:

614.12 refers to replacement abilities that affect how a permanent enters the battlefield. Vs's static ability doesn't do this; it just causes a text-changing continuous effect, so it only applies on the battlefield, so VS doesn't have the Myojin's text as it enters the battlefield, so it doesn't get the counter.



There's a (small) chance the rules will be looked at for the next CR update.


Honestly that explanation makes almost no sense to me, Why on earth would 614.12 even mention (non CDA) continuous effects as being taken into account when determining how or whether a replacement effect applies if not for cases like this?

Edit: Authored a thread in Rules Theory and Templating to discuss the ruling and 614.12 further.
Huh. That really doesn't make sense to me, but it does come from the top. I'll accept it.
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It will not get the counter. I'll quote current Rules Manager Matt Tabak for a minute:

614.12 refers to replacement abilities that affect how a permanent enters the battlefield. Vs's static ability doesn't do this; it just causes a text-changing continuous effect, so it only applies on the battlefield, so VS doesn't have the Myojin's text as it enters the battlefield, so it doesn't get the counter.



There's a (small) chance the rules will be looked at for the next CR update.

So my logic was actually right? It does not enter play as Myojin therefore it cannot get the counter? is that what the ruling is stating?
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So my logic was actually right? It does not enter play as Myojin therefore it cannot get the counter? is that what the ruling is stating?

No, it's not. As far as the game is concerned, the gamestate goes straight from "no creature on the battlefield" to "A Myojin on the battlefield." If the Shapeshifter entered the battlefield as a Shapeshifter and then changed form, there would be at least one gamestate where the Shapeshifter existed as a Shapeshifter. There is not.

I have to say that I'm not entirely sure this ruling is consistent with the ruling that a Changeling entering the battlefield where one or more of the Morningtide Paragons exist will get the counter. If the Changeling ability should apply, so should the VS's ability. There is no support for (for example) applying effects from CDAs but not effects from regular static abilities.
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There is no support for (for example) applying effects from CDAs but not effects from regular static abilities.


Well, there is some support:

112.6. Abilities of an instant or sorcery spell usually function only while that object is on the stack. Abilities of all other objects usually function only while that object is on the battlefield. The exceptions are as follows:

112.6a Characteristic-defining abilities function everywhere, even outside the game. (See rule 604.3.)

[...]

112.6g An object's ability that modifies how that particular object enters the battlefield functions as that object is entering the battlefield. See rule 614.12.

While we're processing the enter-the-battlefield event, Volrath's Shapeshifter has not entered the battlefield yet. It's in the process of entering the battlefield, and it's possible that the intent of rule 614.12 is to only apply effects from abilities that naturally (i.e. according to rule 112.6) function at that time. It's telling us to consider what the creature "would" look like on the battlefield, but it's not explicitly telling us to "turn on" abilities that don't function at that time, so I find it conceivable that we're only supposed to consider abilities that naturally function at that time (although it would be nice if the rule were more explicit about that if that's the case).

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