What WOTC Doesn't get and why people are nervous about the essentials

448 posts / 0 new
Last post
We have spent hundreds of dollars on books. Many of us have spent a lot on ddi subscription also. We have invested hundreds of hours playing the game, DMs have spent as much preparing for games, and players have spent multiple years invested into a character(s).

Now, we get news and rumors that the dnd system that we know is being changed, and we don't now what the change looks like (whether the change is good or bad is a moot point). And the worst thing of all is that we won't be able to see the change for ourselves for another 6 - 12 months. Even for those of us that are hopeful in the new design direction, it's nervous when so much time and money has been spent on the game.
This reminds me of the time 2nd edition kicked over to 3rd.

And the time period before 4th was released.

Patterns seem to repeat themselves.
I play in a 3e homegame that has more house rules changing the game than DDE changes 4e. Pathfinder changed 3e much, much more than DDE is touching 4e. 
Plus we get the changes in the free Updates document.

The changes are all good. If the game had released with them people would have praised the edition louder. Many of them are tweaks that respond directly to criticisms of the game and edition; they're content that would have hit the actual edition if WotC had been a little more widespread with its playtesting.  

It's just fear of change at this point.
It's not that big of a deal. There are many reasons to dislike DDE but changes... naw.

5 Minute WorkdayMy Webcomic Updated Tue & Thur

The compilation of my Worldbuilding blog series is now available: 

Jester David's How-To Guide to Fantasy Worldbuilding.

Business as usual. It's best if we don't get too attached to a system. It helps sooth the pain..
The changes are all good. If the game had released with them people would have praised the edition louder. Many of them are tweaks that respond directly to criticisms of the game and edition; they're content that would have hit the actual edition if WotC had been a little more widespread with its playtesting.  

It's just fear of change at this point.


I disagree.  I don't fear change.  I think that some of the changes are good, and I look forward to them.  I also think some of the changes are bad, and I don't look forward to them.

Hopefully the changes that I dislike can be effectively ignored.  I think this stuff about magic item rarity is terrible, but I can easily disregard it.  I don't like their new take on martial classes - but hey, I don't have to play the new classes.  Where I start to get frustrated is with changes that they make to accomodate their new take on martial classes - those changes I cannot easily ignore, because the CB has no option to not include them.

But who knows.  I can only hope that the things I like about Essentials will outweigh the (difficult to ignore) things that I dislike.
I disagree.  I don't fear change.  I think that some of the changes are good, and I look forward to them.  I also think some of the changes are bad, and I don't look forward to them.

But who knows.  I can only hope that the things I like about Essentials will outweigh the (difficult to ignore) things that I dislike.



Ditto.

Like some things (ie, Rules Compendium - hurray for an inexpensive and inobtrusive book of just the core rule).

Dislike some things, but don't mind if they're easily ignored (ie, item rarities, if they mean players can no longer craft existing items).

Things I dislike that aren't easily ignored (ie, nerfing the basic attacks of battleminds, pre-e rogues, assassins, and several more, all to fix an issue with the slayer that could have been easily avoided in the first place), on the other hand, make me grumpy.
We have spent hundreds of dollars on books.


I haven't; I bought only the first Player's Handbook, and a couple of other products.  I flipped through the other books and decided that they had little or nothing to offer me.  Not everyone spent hundreds of dollars on books.  I will probably spend more on the Essentials product line than I have spent on original 4E D&D products.  Any hobby is a luxury, and they all cost money from time to time.  Compared to other hobbies out there, Dungeons and Dragons is one of the cheaper ones--for example, I probably spend more on my SCA participation in the average month than I spend on D&D in the average year.  I don't mind spending a few dozen dollars every few years on my D&D hobby.  Take up golf or yachting if you want to complain that your hobby costs too much...

If you have to resort to making offensive comments instead of making logical arguments, you deserve to be ignored.


The changes are all good. If the game had released with them people would have praised the edition louder. Many of them are tweaks that respond directly to criticisms of the game and edition; they're content that would have hit the actual edition if WotC had been a little more widespread with its playtesting. 



While I agree that many of the changes are in response to complaints, I disagree that they all make the game better.  A lot of essentials material seems centered around drawing in newcomers who can't be bothered to learn how to play the current ruleset.  How many people here complained that martial at-will attacks were too complicated to understand and they wish they could just do MBA's instead?  Or hated the variety of so many encounter/daily powers?

To many people, the current system works fine.  A few tweaks would be nice, but the level of change in Essentials will likely require a lot of retroactive errata that will "mess up" non-Essentials classes.  The melee training nerf is a great example of this.  Classes like Battlemind or some Paladins rely on melee training to perform their role.  Now, since it's apparently broken for Essentials characters, it must be nerfed.  This is not a "change for the better" for any existing classes.

I think it's legitimate that people would be upset that more of this kind of thing will very likely happen - currently non-broken feats or abilities that builds need to function correctly could be changed solely because of how they interact in Essentials.
I think the worse criticism of a change to the rules is "I have invested too much already to change." If you don't like the new changes, that's legit and cool by me. 

BTW, I am nervous about the changes. I probably will ignore the Magic item rules unless the book convinces me otherwises. I will wait and see the extent of the new implement rules before passing judgement. But my decision to accept or reject Essentials will have nothing to do with what I've purchased for 4ed before. My collection of dusty 3ed books is much larger. Wink 

"Ah, the age-old conundrum. Defenders of a game are too blind to see it's broken, and critics are too idiotic to see that it isn't." - Brian McCormick

It's just fear of change

QFT.

Kainotophobia for the loose.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

BTW, I am nervous about the changes. I probably will ignore the Magic item rules unless the book convinces me otherwises.

That's optional, as are most other things they are adding.

The new human racial: optional
The new magic system: optional
The new classes: optional
The new race-stats: optional
The new Magic missile: ... ok, that one you have a point on, dunno why they didn't just make a new spell

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I'm curious about what magic item "rules" people think there will be to ignore. I've seen people suggest (randomly/out of thin air) that it might be something like each character is limited to 1 rare item and 2 uncommon ones, but there's nothing like that in the tidbits we've been given, and in the absence of any information to the contrary doesn't it make the most sense to assume that "most existing items will be uncommon" means "uncommon will work exactly like most items always have"?

Just like with feats, they're adding a classification system, not a bunch of new rules. Look up items with the property: unique in the Compendium. These are your "rares". Again, not a new rule. Just a new way of classifying.
...and that's the news from Lake 4th Edition, where the Gnomes are strong, the Half-Orcs are good-looking, and all the PCs are above average.
I'm curious about what magic item "rules" people think there will be to ignore. I've seen people suggest (randomly/out of thin air) that it might be something like each character is limited to 1 rare item and 2 uncommon ones, but there's nothing like that in the tidbits we've been given, and in the absence of any information to the contrary doesn't it make the most sense to assume that "most existing items will be uncommon" means "uncommon will work exactly like most items always have"?

Just like with feats, they're adding a classification system, not a bunch of new rules. Look up items with the property: unique in the Compendium. These are your "rares". Again, not a new rule. Just a new way of classifying.

At gen-con, they specificly said there was a new system based on rareity.  They also said the parcle system was still there too.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

For me, I'm just worried about all the added complexity. For every new release, there's just layer upon layer upon layer of complexity. That does three important (and undesirable) things:

(1) Creates a greater potential for rules conflicts and exploitations (which the CharOp boards have been quick to point out with the new class types)

(2) Makes the game more obtuse for new players. When you start playing a new game, you want to be able to understand all the options available, and then pick the one that's best for you. Once Essentials comes out, there will be so many different options, and so many different approaches to character creation and tactics, that this won't be possible. When psionics were introduced in PHB3, it was a logical progression for those of us used to playing with at-will powers. But for someone who's been playing a Slayer, it's going to seem like a whole new world (see also Chaos Sorcerers, Vestige Warlocks, Druids, Beastmaster Rangers, Summoner Wizards, etc.)

(3) DMs just cannot keep up. In order to maintain fairness and crack down on players cheating at the table, it's important to know exactly how the players' characters work. Now, hard-to-read dice and character sheets on an iPhone are one thing, but with all these new options (particularly anything that doesn't work the way we're used to), DMs are going to have spend tons of time studying just to know what players are dishing out at the table. This raises the bar to new DMs; in fact, it's just the opposite of what Steve Winters is advocating in his Dragon editorial this month.
Gamma World Origins Half-Sheets: Horizontal (FiFG) Vertical (GW) FiFG coming soon
1) Would happen with any new option

2) Would happen with any new option

3) Would happen with any new option

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

The changes are all good. If the game had released with them people would have praised the edition louder. Many of them are tweaks that respond directly to criticisms of the game and edition; they're content that would have hit the actual edition if WotC had been a little more widespread with its playtesting.  

It's just fear of change at this point.


I disagree.  I don't fear change.  I think that some of the changes are good, and I look forward to them.  I also think some of the changes are bad, and I don't look forward to them.

Hopefully the changes that I dislike can be effectively ignored.  I think this stuff about magic item rarity is terrible, but I can easily disregard it.  I don't like their new take on martial classes - but hey, I don't have to play the new classes.  Where I start to get frustrated is with changes that they make to accomodate their new take on martial classes - those changes I cannot easily ignore, because the CB has no option to not include them.

But who knows.  I can only hope that the things I like about Essentials will outweigh the (difficult to ignore) things that I dislike.



My issue is that all the changes seem to be backwards changes.  They all seem to be about nostalgia than any real sense of improving the game.  With the power system there is no reason for a simpler class and I feel making one is a mistake every class should have equal options and powers.
1) Would happen with any new option

2) Would happen with any new option

3) Would happen with any new option


Wrong, Mello. I'm sorry to say, but you're overgeneralizing and coming out just plain wrong.

"Any new option" indicates that something new is being added to the system, in which case you would be correct. However, a "new option" neither connotes nor denotes the adjustment of existing frickin' rules to suit the new addition. As soon as Melee Training got nerfed, I found myself inconsolably pissed, and for one reason: it's pretty much clear that the designers have just been throwing the metaphorical pasta against the wall and hoping it sticks. They nerfed Melee Training just so that they didn't have to adjust the name of the Martial Essentials basic attacks, which screams that they weren't even paying attention to how their own game operates.

I've only taken the Melee Training feat once in all the time I've played 4E, and I personally wouldn't miss it. What I take umbrage to is the idea that the developers are so lazy and intent on drawing in a crowd of people who generally don't want to play 4E anyway because its skill mechanic is different, that the devs are willing to throw existing mechanical patches under the bus because they're not big enough to admit they made a mistake.

If they're gonna make sweeping changes like this, they may as well make them where it counts, such as including Melee Training, the Defenses feats, and the Expertise feats in the basic progression of the game. If they plan to do that, they should announce it to the public. That alone would cause jubilation in the streets as far as I can see. 

The original core books said that this was our game too. It doesn't feel like that anymore.


The changes are all good. If the game had released with them people would have praised the edition louder. Many of them are tweaks that respond directly to criticisms of the game and edition; they're content that would have hit the actual edition if WotC had been a little more widespread with its playtesting. 


While I agree that many of the changes are in response to complaints, I disagree that they all make the game better.  A lot of essentials material seems centered around drawing in newcomers who can't be bothered to learn how to play the current ruleset.  How many people here complained that martial at-will attacks were too complicated to understand and they wish they could just do MBA's instead?  Or hated the variety of so many encounter/daily powers?


How about the players of the guy who posted here a couple months ago. The ones who only ever made MBA because they erroneously felt at-wills were less powerful. 
Many people just want to hit things with their sword and play a simpler class.  

5 Minute WorkdayMy Webcomic Updated Tue & Thur

The compilation of my Worldbuilding blog series is now available: 

Jester David's How-To Guide to Fantasy Worldbuilding.


The changes are all good. If the game had released with them people would have praised the edition louder. Many of them are tweaks that respond directly to criticisms of the game and edition; they're content that would have hit the actual edition if WotC had been a little more widespread with its playtesting. 


While I agree that many of the changes are in response to complaints, I disagree that they all make the game better.  A lot of essentials material seems centered around drawing in newcomers who can't be bothered to learn how to play the current ruleset.  How many people here complained that martial at-will attacks were too complicated to understand and they wish they could just do MBA's instead?  Or hated the variety of so many encounter/daily powers?


How about the players of the guy who posted here a couple months ago. The ones who only ever made MBA because they erroneously felt at-wills were less powerful. 
Many people just want to hit things with their sword and play a simpler class.  



Then they should learn to use at wills?  Are they even going to remeber to use stances?  At wills are hitting something with a sword..
1) Would happen with any new option

2) Would happen with any new option

3) Would happen with any new option


Wrong, Mello. I'm sorry to say, but you're overgeneralizing and coming out just plain wrong.

"Any new option" indicates that something new is being added to the system, in which case you would be correct. However, a "new option" neither connotes nor denotes the adjustment of existing frickin' rules to suit the new addition. As soon as Melee Training got nerfed, I found myself inconsolably pissed, and for one reason: it's pretty much clear that the designers have just been throwing the metaphorical pasta against the wall and hoping it sticks. They nerfed Melee Training just so that they didn't have to adjust the name of the Martial Essentials basic attacks, which screams that they weren't even paying attention to how their own game operates.

I've only taken the Melee Training feat once in all the time I've played 4E, and I personally wouldn't miss it. What I take umbrage to is the idea that the developers are so lazy and intent on drawing in a crowd of people who generally don't want to play 4E anyway because its skill mechanic is different, that the devs are willing to throw existing mechanical patches under the bus because they're not big enough to admit they made a mistake.

If they're gonna make sweeping changes like this, they may as well make them where it counts, such as including Melee Training, the Defenses feats, and the Expertise feats in the basic progression of the game. If they plan to do that, they should announce it to the public. That alone would cause jubilation in the streets as far as I can see. 


THIS.
Fear of change?  Afraid the books will become useless? Hardly.  I supported 4th Edition back in 3rd and I'm not going to claim it was anything more then a massive change of the entire system.  Why?  Because I thought the system needed a massive change, and 4th Edition dealt with most of the problems that had plagued D&D since it's creation.

Now essentials is bringing those problems back as game wide "features".  And I'm annoyed.
Well... At least we got custom avatars....
Fear of change?  Afraid the books will become useless? Hardly.  I supported 4th Edition back in 3rd and I'm not going to claim it was anything more then a massive change of the entire system.  Why?  Because I thought the system needed a massive change, and 4th Edition dealt with most of the problems that had plagued D&D since it's creation.

Now essentials is bringing those problems back as game wide "features".  And I'm annoyed.



Learn from this. This is the general consensus of most of those unhappy with the recent changes.

The original core books said that this was our game too. It doesn't feel like that anymore.

I'm curious about what magic item "rules" people think there will be to ignore. I've seen people suggest (randomly/out of thin air) that it might be something like each character is limited to 1 rare item and 2 uncommon ones, but there's nothing like that in the tidbits we've been given, and in the absence of any information to the contrary doesn't it make the most sense to assume that "most existing items will be uncommon" means "uncommon will work exactly like most items always have"?

Just like with feats, they're adding a classification system, not a bunch of new rules. Look up items with the property: unique in the Compendium. These are your "rares". Again, not a new rule. Just a new way of classifying.

At gen-con, they specificly said there was a new system based on rareity.  They also said the parcle system was still there too.

I know this, Mellored. My question is what new "rules" do people think it's going to include that we'll be forced to ignore/houserule away if we want to keep going as is? There's going to be a random treasure table that keys off the rarity, but that's not a rule, that's an alternate means of distributing rewards... and so far that's the closest thing to a new mechanical effect that's been mentioned.

(Note: not being able to make/buy rare items is no different than the extant Unique property.)

So far I've seen people suggesting things like the rarity system will mean you can only have one of each type of uncommon item per party (retracted), that it will limit the number of uncommon items a PC can have (a baseless guess), that uncommon items will need recipes or specific components (same), and possibly a few other things I've overlooked/am forgetting. 
...and that's the news from Lake 4th Edition, where the Gnomes are strong, the Half-Orcs are good-looking, and all the PCs are above average.
***** I can't help but feel that this is D&D 4.5 and I don't want that. I have invested in the 4E books and large sweeping changes that make them useless is not cool. Now granted, they won't be completely useless, but when you make new versions of basic PHB classes, then yes, I have something to be concerned about.

Honestly, there wasn't a need to dumb down melee classes. Why not simply have the Basic Attacks show up as At-Wills? What confused people is that they were stuck over to the side on the char sheet and apparently they were vision impaired. So why not throw the old green box treatment to Basics and call it good?

***** Brother G.
1) Would happen with any new option

2) Would happen with any new option

3) Would happen with any new option


Wrong, Mello. I'm sorry to say, but you're overgeneralizing and coming out just plain wrong.

"Any new option" indicates that something new is being added to the system, in which case you would be correct. However, a "new option" neither connotes nor denotes the adjustment of existing frickin' rules to suit the new addition. As soon as Melee Training got nerfed, I found myself inconsolably pissed, and for one reason: it's pretty much clear that the designers have just been throwing the metaphorical pasta against the wall and hoping it sticks. They nerfed Melee Training just so that they didn't have to adjust the name of the Martial Essentials basic attacks, which screams that they weren't even paying attention to how their own game operates.

They've gone back and nerfed or changed things plenty of times.  Dagger master was changed because of the sorcerer came out.  Pit fighter was changed because of the avenger.  Hide armor expertise was changed because of the swarm druid.  And melee training is changed because of the slayer.

ANY new option can force a re-adjustment on the system.  The only difference is they seem to have notice ahead of time instead of waiting 6 months after it's been released.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

If I was going to get all ticked off every time I bought new D&D books that made my old D&D books less useful or just outright useless, I would have stopped buying new D&D books around 1989.

Don't like the changes? Don't use them.
Don't like the new books? Don't buy them.
Wanna make a real statement to WotC? Don't buy their new products. That's the most powerful message you can send to them.
 They've gone back and nerfed or changed things plenty of times.  Dagger master was changed because of the sorcerer came out.  Pit fighter was changed because of the avenger.  Hide armor expertise was changed because of the swarm druid.  And melee training is changed because of the slayer.

ANY new option can force a re-adjustment on the system.  The only difference is they seem to have notice ahead of time instead of waiting 6 months after it's been released.



Actually, Pit Fighter was changed because of the Str/Wis ranger being exploited, and Hide Armor Expertise was changed because of the barbarian. Pit Fighter's solution sort of worked, at least in balance for hybrid builds, but it did end up being less threatening with its punishment than it had pre-errata. As for the swarm druid, it's now been declared the worst of the druid builds because of the HAE fix, so your proclamation there is basically that fixing something means making it suck, so that actually does flow nicely into the whole Melee Training/Essentials revision argument. Thanks for not making me have to work to make the argument, Mello! 

The original core books said that this was our game too. It doesn't feel like that anymore.

To double-post from another thread, it's a good point:

"This is a problem they knew about before hand, could have avoided, and chose not to, and the nerf comes to a feat that was patching a hole in the system - a feat several classes relied on because MBA's are assumed for melee characters in 4e, particularly melee defenders who require them to do their job, but not every 4e melee class or even every 4e melee defender class is strength based.

It's one thing to try and fix an outlying issue that you didn't see coming, it's another hand to ignore an obvious issue and nerf half a dozen existing classes in favor of a couple new ones.  If compatibility was goal number one, then something obvious like this should have been avoided to begin with.  Compatibility means taking previous material into account as you design new material, not diliberately ignoring existing material during design.

It's simply not cool.  It's simply not cool to nerf assassins and battleminds (already gimpy classes) and so on for the benefit of knights and slayers."
 

The original core books said that this was our game too. It doesn't feel like that anymore.

 They've gone back and nerfed or changed things plenty of times.  Dagger master was changed because of the sorcerer came out.  Pit fighter was changed because of the avenger.  Hide armor expertise was changed because of the swarm druid.  And melee training is changed because of the slayer.

ANY new option can force a re-adjustment on the system.  The only difference is they seem to have notice ahead of time instead of waiting 6 months after it's been released.

Actually, Pit Fighter was changed because of the Str/Wis ranger being exploited, and Hide Armor Expertise was changed because of the barbarian. Pit Fighter's solution sort of worked, at least in balance for hybrid builds, but it did end up being less threatening with its punishment than it had pre-errata. As for the swarm druid, it's now been declared the worst of the druid builds because of the HAE fix, so your proclamation there is basically that fixing something means making it suck, so that actually does flow nicely into the whole Melee Training/Essentials revision argument. Thanks for not making me have to work to make the argument, Mello! 

Yes, new options can cause previous things to change, and yes Essentials provides new options, but so did PHB2/Martial Power/Divine Power/ect...  They all caused errata's on previous things.  And i expect, when PHB4 comes out, that they'll likely to errata something in essentials too.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

My feeling concerning all the essential business happening on these forums ...
Qube's block builder: if you want to create blocks for powers, items and monsters for this forum, but don't know html
Signature in a box
For years, I've lived a double life. In the day, I do my job - I ride the bus, roll up my sleeves with the hoi-polloi. But at night, I live a life of exhilaration, of missed heartbeats and adrenalin. And, if the truth be known a life of dubious virtue. I won't deny it - I've been engaged in violence, even indulged in it. I've maimed and killed adversaries, and not merely in self-defence. I've exhibited disregard for life, limb and property, and savoured every moment. You may not think it, to look of me but I have commanded armies, and conquered worlds. And though in achieving these things I've set morality aside, I have no regrets. For though I've led a double life, at least I can say - I've lived.

3.jpg
D&D Home Page - What Monster Are You? - Stone Gaint

Scipio: And Chihuahuas have definitely improved in the "attacking ankles, yapping, and being generally annoying" environment. Me: OK, am I the only who sees an analogy between forum trolls & Chihuahuas?
Some of my work:
XDMC 19 (silver): A full fledged assassins guild (with stats, skill challenges, ...)link XDMC 14 (Bronze): a one shot campaign for beginning DMs/players. link XDMC 16: Paragon path: the Epitome: being better then all then any one else. link (note: this is balanced) XDMC 25: The Gelatinous Cube mount Guide To Disreality: a collection of houserules - Introduction & table of content
My ego in a box
who am I kidding? my ego would never fit in a box
Hocus Smokus hit the nail on the head. You want to send a message to WotC that your unhappy about the changes, don't buy the products. I WILL be buying Darksun and miniatures, but I WILL NOT be buying Essentials anything.

6 months ago I was'nt going to subscribe to DDI either for any of the Errata'd material, but I broke down and finally subscribed. Honestly the full version of the character builder is probably the tool that gets the most practical use (aside from minis). But now I will be cancelling my Auto-Renew and I will not be getting any more new updates because I want No Part of the Essentials updates/line of products.

Dark Sun will be the last of the 4E books I buy. I have bought EVERY book for 4E that has been released, and since its release I have spent THOUSANDS of dollars on miniatures to support my game. Miniatures will be the only thing I buy after Dark Sun unless of course they change that too. (From what I have read, speculations say that pre-painted minis may be cancelled as well and if that happens my wallet will be closed for good!)

I love reading these types of posts. 
I thouroghly enjoy watching 4e players squirm as they get a dose of the fear, anxiety, and grief they gave others as 4e dawned.

Your perfect balanced 4e?  It's flawed!  And now changing (more)!  Oh no, you're already monthly errattad books will become useless - despite whatever you spent on them!

BTW; I told you that in about 3 -4 years WoTC would pull the .5 trick (in some form) on you AGAIN.  So open wide & fork over the cash, because here it comes....   
I wish they'd (WoTC) would toss out a bunch of polls and POLL the community.

I mean, the people that are content with 4e aren't saying anything because THEY LIKE IT.

The people that don't like 4e (or various aspects) won't be quiet and now the squeaky wheel is getting the grease.
BTW, I am nervous about the changes. I probably will ignore the Magic item rules unless the book convinces me otherwises.

That's optional, as are most other things they are adding.

The new human racial: optional
The new magic system: optional
The new classes: optional
The new race-stats: optional
The new Magic missile: ... ok, that one you have a point on, dunno why they didn't just make a new spell



If the Essentials races weren't strictly better than the originals (EX. Dwarves get possible +2 to STR, but don't get minor second wind), then I would happily accept them as an alternative. I like the idea of having two Fighter classes that appeal to different play styles, and I wouldn't mind two Dwarf races sitting side-by-side IF AND ONLY IF they were equal-ish. If the Essentials races are just plain better than the PHBI races, I won't be pleased.

"Ah, the age-old conundrum. Defenders of a game are too blind to see it's broken, and critics are too idiotic to see that it isn't." - Brian McCormick

Your perfect balanced 4e?  It's flawed!  And now changing(more)!  Oh no, you're already monthly errattad books will become useless - despite whatever you spent on them!



No system is perfect, I think that can be accepted as a universal truth. Adding things that were flawed to begin with, for nostalgia's sake? That's the only issue I have.
IMAGE(http://images.community.wizards.com/community.wizards.com/user/blitzschnell/0a90721d221e50e5755af156c179fe51.jpg?v=90000)
I love reading these types of posts. 
I thouroghly enjoy watching 4e players squirm as they get a dose of the fear, anxiety, and grief they gave others as 4e dawned.

Your perfect balanced 4e?  It's flawed!  And now changing (more)!  Oh no, you're already monthly errattad books will become useless - despite whatever you spent on them!

BTW; I told you that in about 3 -4 years WoTC would pull the .5 trick (in some form) on you AGAIN.  So open wide & fork over the cash, because here it comes....  
  



Mmmm mmm! Aren't those grapes good and sour?

BTW, I am nervous about the changes. I probably will ignore the Magic item rules unless the book convinces me otherwises.

That's optional, as are most other things they are adding.

The new human racial: optional
The new magic system: optional
The new classes: optional
The new race-stats: optional
The new Magic missile: ... ok, that one you have a point on, dunno why they didn't just make a new spell

If the Essentials races weren't strictly better than the originals (EX. Dwarves get possible +2 to STR, but don't get minor second wind), then I would happily accept them as an alternative. I like the idea of having two Fighter classes that appeal to different play styles, and I wouldn't mind two Dwarf races sitting side-by-side IF AND ONLY IF they were equal-ish. If the Essentials races are just plain better than the PHBI races, I won't be pleased.

How are they "plain better"?  They loose +2 Wis for +2 Str.  That's a straight trade.  And the PHB1/2 will get an errata so the races match.

Also worth noteing +Str/Con Dwarfs loose 1 Will defense.  As do the Dex/Int elfs.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I actually like sour grapes in real life, but CCS doesn't seem to have any argument whatsoever as far as I can tell. I went into 4E looking for something new because I didn't like the way 3.5 worked magic. I LIKE the original 4E, and the errata wasn't so frustrating as to get me incensed until this change. Now, it seems like anything from 4E could be fair game for being unraveled in favor of placing Essentials on the pedestal.

The original core books said that this was our game too. It doesn't feel like that anymore.

I like the changes brought by the essentials line, just so those counting who is for or against these changes (although people against them are way more likely to post).  I am very glad that D&D is a dynamic game that is trying to bring more people into the game with the essentials line (such as my nephew).  I like it that they reevaluate the game and make changes to make the game more dynamic and exciting (MM3 monsters are way more fun to play and gm for then MM1 monsters for example).  Many of the players that I play with with be way better with essentials characters than some of the stuff they put together themselves.  I like the feel and the ease of many of the changes to existing powers even if they might be a little less powerful to the exploiter. 

If I bought all the book (I have able half of them).  I would be more upset if d&d didn't keep reevaluating and working to make the game better and better with updates, errata, and things such as the essentials line.

Alot of veterans of character optimization say that the new builds are junk, but for a new player these are very respectable easy to play builds. My 6 year nephew (or close enough) was able to play the Slayer build awesomely (3 kills), and I was so happy for its simplicity, heck I wouldn't mind that character (and I'm a power gamer).   Any game that isn't constantly trying to get new players is dead in the water (especially with the oh no you changed my game, I'm quitting mentality), and I am happy with the effort that the staff of d&d is doing to keep the game going.
How are they "plain better"?  They loose +2 Wis for +2 Str.  That's a straight trade.  And the PHB1/2 will get an errata so the races match.

Also worth noteing +Str/Con Dwarfs loose 1 Will defense.  As do the Dex/Int elfs.


They're "plain better" because dwarves got quite a number of feats to make them competitive in several classes (most notably fighter and warden) despite lacking a Strength bonus. Now, with such excellent feat support and the Strength/Con bonus, dwarves leap ahead of the curve and suddenly become top dog in those classes.
You can't just examine the stats in a vacuum. Such awesome feat support makes the dwarves "plain better." 

The original core books said that this was our game too. It doesn't feel like that anymore.

I wish they'd (WoTC) would toss out a bunch of polls and POLL the community.

I mean, the people that are content with 4e aren't saying anything because THEY LIKE IT.

The people that don't like 4e (or various aspects) won't be quiet and now the squeaky wheel is getting the grease.

Very dangerous. I dread the day that the "Drizzt class" sees light of day.

I think a lot of 4E and Essentials are about designers and the marketing teams trying to please customers instead of being creative.




Actually, I'm almost willing to bet you money that if a poll came along and "Drizzt" were a choice, it would NOT get 1st place.

And I mean polls along the lines of:

"Do you like the direction the planned 'Essentials' line is taking Dungeons and Dragons?"  Y/N

Then it gets more specific from there,
"Do you like where the Knight class is taking Fighters?"
"Do you view the new 'Essentials' line as mandatory or as an option?"
"Would you rather the new 'Essentials' line were an option or an update?"

Make the poll available to forum members (at least) or make it available to DDI subscribers. The money people are paying for the subscription is also helping pay for keeping up with the poll numbers.

OR BETTER YET, WHY DON'T THEY FINISH ALL THOSE SHINY TOYS THEY PROMISED US? Like the 3D character thing or the DM tool that masterplan created?