Murderous Mind - a Study in Battlemind Damage Twinking (1k+ at-will, 2k+ nova damage)

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As there was some interest in how far one could take Battlemind damage twinking, here's some data:
-- Fully playable 1-30 build including many open power picks from two solid Defender classes.
-- Level 16: Close to one-shotting regulars and AP novaing Elites.
-- Level 30: One-shotting Elites and AP novaing Solos.
-- Full on turn damage for instant death (catch-22 might be possible).
-- Can be tweaked for more damage if willing to give up some playability over the levels (switch Cha for Int, Hybrid with Avenger for improved crit-range and abuse with TWO and others, pick Lyrander Windrider if Randiant Vulnerability is provided).
-- Extra resilient due sub-zero fighting plus resist all (temporary in Paragon, permanent in Epic).
-- Can be tweaked for more defense at comparatively low damage output cost.
-- Works as single class Battlemind at the cost of some damage, but increases mobility (Lightning Rush).
-- Can deal with problems (movement debuffs, hordes of Minions, ...) relatively well.

Worst offenders for damage (in order of servertiy):
-- Radiant One
-- high distance forced movement... (Mark of Storm !!)
-- ... triggering Spark Slippers
-- vulnerabilities (Morninglord !)
-- Pelor's Boon (thankfully in the hands of the DM)
-- Brilliant Recovery
-- item damage (particularly on elemental)
-- Brutal Barrage

Level 16 Build
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Murderous Mind (L16), level 16
Revenant, Battlemind|Paladin, Morninglord
Hybrid Paladin: Hybrid Paladin Reflex
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Holy Symbol)
Psionic Augmentation (Hybrid): Hybrid Encounter Power
Hybrid Talent: Psionic Study (Hybrid)
Psionic Study (Hybrid): Wild Focus (Hybrid)
Choose your Race in Life: Tiefling

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 22, Dex 13, Int 12, Wis 9, Cha 20.


STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 16, Dex 10, Int 11, Wis 8, Cha 16.



AC: 32 Fort: 27 Reflex: 25 Will: 27
HP: 127 Surges: 15 Surge Value: 31


TRAINED SKILLS



UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +7, Arcana +9, Bluff +13, Diplomacy +13, Dungeoneering +7, Endurance +14, Heal +7, History +9, Insight +7, Intimidate +15, Nature +7, Perception +7, Religion +9, Stealth +7, Streetwise +13, Thievery +7, Athletics +8


FEATS
Level 1: Versatile Expertise
Level 2: Hybrid Talent
Level 4: Mark of Storm
Level 6: Battering Shield
Level 8: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)
Level 10: Deadly Draw
Level 11: Death's Quickening
Level 12: Fierce Vitality
Level 14: Secrets of Belial
Level 16: Headman's Chop


POWERS
Hybrid at-will 1: Virtuous Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Bull's Strength
Hybrid Encounter Power: Valorous Smite
Psionic Defense (Hybrid): Blurred Step
Hybrid utility 2: Call of Challenge
Hybrid utility 6: Psionic Ambush
Hybrid at-will/encounter 7: Psionic Speed
Hybrid utility 10: Battle Aspect (retrained to Battle Fury Stance at Secrets of Belial)
Hybrid at-will/encounter 13: Brutal Barrage (replaces Bull's Strength)


ITEMS
Heavy Shield, Staggering Longsword +4, Magic Wyvernscale Armor +3, Crown of the Brilliant Sun (paragon tier), Amulet of Protection +3, Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier), Spark Slippers (paragon tier), Belt of Sonnlinor Righteousness (heroic tier), Ring of Giants (paragon tier), Pelor's Sun Blessing (level 3), Eberron Shard of Lightning (paragon tier), Tempest Whetstone (heroic tier) (20), Bag of Holding (heroic tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======



Level 16: 128.9 DPR
Attack
6 Con +8 level +4 enhancement +3 proficiency +2 expertise +2 CA Deadly Draw = +25 vs AC 30
=> 20% miss, 75% hit, 5% crit

using a Tempest Whetstone: confers the Lightning keyword

Damage Brutal Barrage:
-- convert to Radiant with Crown of the Brilliant Sun:
-- hit: 6 Con + 10 Morninglord + 6 Con Pelor's Boon = 22 radiant dmg
-- crit: 22 + 8 Ring of Giants + 4d6 crit bonus = 44 radiant dmg
-- slide: 1 Mark of Storm + 4 Staggering Warhammer + 1 Battering Shield = 6 sq slide --> move adjacent 3 times: 3 * 5 Cha Spark Slipper = 15 lightning dmg
-- Headman's Chop: 5 bonus damage when prone (after two hits with BB) --> 49% prone after two attacks (80% * 80%); 29,4% prone after three attacks (20% * 80% * 80% + 80% * 20% * 80%)

Brutal Barrage (1 PP): 4 attacks
4 * (0,75 * (22 + 15) + 0,05 * (44 + 15)) + (0,64 * 2 + 0,256) * 5 * 0,8 = 128,9 DPR


Level 16: 276.2 DMG AP Nova
Changes:
-- on APs we crit on 18+
-- we likely already prone with the first attack, triggering full Headman's Chop on the second
==> 4 * (0,75 * (22 + 15) + 0,05 * (44 + 15)) + (0,64 * 2 + 0,256) * 5 * 0,8 + 4 * (0,65 * (22 + 15) + 0,15 * (44 + 15)) + (0,961536 * 4 * 5 * 0,8 + (1 - 0,961536 ) * (0,64 * 2 + 0,256) * 5 * 0,8) = 276,2 dmg


The build loses ~150 DPR due some mistake I made. With the free feats I could likely recover some. Please find more details here.
In case of a more wacky build or by using Kergma's Template at 30 as well the damage could go back over 1k and some more again.

Level 30 Build
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Murderous Mind (L30), level 30
Revenant, Battlemind|Paladin, Morninglord, Radiant One
Hybrid Paladin: Hybrid Paladin Reflex
Psionic Augmentation (Hybrid): Hybrid Encounter Power
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Hammer)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Holy Symbol)
Hybrid Talent: Wild Focus (Hybrid)
Psionic Study (Hybrid): Speed of Thought (Hybrid)
Choose your Race in Life: Tiefling

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 15, Con 26, Dex 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 24.


STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 16, Dex 10, Int 11, Wis 8, Cha 16.



AC: 46 Fort: 38 Reflex: 35 Will: 38
HP: 215 Surges: 17 Surge Value: 53


TRAINED SKILLS



UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +15, Arcana +16, Bluff +22, Diplomacy +22, Dungeoneering +15, Endurance +23, Heal +15, History +16, Insight +15, Intimidate +24, Nature +15, Perception +15, Religion +16, Stealth +15, Streetwise +22, Thievery +15, Athletics +15


FEATS
Level 1: Versatile Expertise
Level 2: Hybrid Talent
Level 4: Mark of Storm
Level 6: Battering Shield
Level 8: Weapon Focus (Hammer)
Level 10: Deadly Draw
Level 11: Death's Quickening
Level 12: Fierce Vitality
Level 14: Secrets of Belial
Level 16: Psychic Corruption of Malbolge
Level 18: Hellfire Blood
Level 20: Telekinetic Savant
Level 21: Disciplined Talent
Level 22: Hammer Rhythm
Level 24: Paladin's Truth
Level 26: Ghostly Vitality
Level 28: Power Attack
Level 30: Controlling Advantage


POWERS
Hybrid at-will 1: Virtuous Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Bull's Strength
Hybrid Encounter Power: Valorous Smite
Psionic Defense (Hybrid): Blurred Step
Hybrid utility 2: Call of Challenge
Hybrid utility 6: Psionic Ambush
Hybrid at-will/encounter 7: Psionic Speed
Hybrid utility 10: Battle Aspect (retrained to Battle Fury Stance at Secrets of Belial)
Hybrid at-will/encounter 13: Brutal Barrage (replaces Bull's Strength)
Hybrid at-will/encounter 27: Brilliant Recovery (replaces Psionic Speed)


ITEMS
Heavy Shield, Spark Slippers (paragon tier), Pelor's Sun Blessing (level 3), Tempest Whetstone (heroic tier) (20), Bag of Holding (heroic tier), Staggering Warhammer +6, Eberron Shard of Lightning (epic tier), Magic Elderscale Armor +6, Many-Fingered Gloves (paragon tier), Life Charm +5, Ring of Free Time (epic tier) (3), Gauntlets of Brutality (paragon tier), Belt of Sonnlinor Righteousness (epic tier), Rebuking Bracers (paragon tier), Symbol of Divine Light +4, Ring of Giants (paragon tier), Ring of the Radiant Storm (paragon tier), Crown of the Brilliant Sun (paragon tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======



Level 30: 1012.4 DPR (1435.7 DPR post MS)
Attack
8 Con +15 level +6 enhancement +2 proficiency +3 expertise +1 Hellfire Blood +2 CA Deadly Draw [-2 Power Attack] = +37 [+35] vs AC 44
=> 30% miss, 65% hit, 5% crit [40% miss, 55% hit, 5% crit]

using a Tempest Whetstone: confers the Lightning keyword
Paladin's Truth: can ignore all resistances and immunities against marked targets

Damage Brutal Barrage:
-- miss: 8 Con Hammer Rhytm + 1 Int Radiant One + 10 Morninglord + 8 Con Pelor's Boon + 6 Psychic Corruption of Malbolge = 33 fire & radiant dmg
-- hit: 8 Con + 1 Int Radiant One + 10 Morninglord + 8 Con Pelor's Boon + 6 Psychic Corruption of Malbolge = 33 fire & radiant dmg
-- crit: 33 + 6d6 (roll twice, take highest) crit bonus = 59,82 fire & radiant dmg

Damage Brilliant Recovery:
-- miss: 8 Con Hammer Rhytm + 1 Int Radiant One + 10 Morninglord + 8 Con Pelor's Boon + 6 Psychic Corruption of Malbolge = 33 fire & radiant dmg
-- hit: 8 Con + 1 Int Radiant One + 10 Morninglord + 8 Con Pelor's Boon + 6 Psychic Corruption of Malbolge + 3 feat + 5 item + 5 Shard + 6 power + 1 Hellfire Blood + 3 set + 1d10 (roll twice, take highest) Warhammer= 64,15 fire & radiant dmg
-- crit: 66 + 6d6 (roll twice, take highest) crit bonus = 92,82 fire & radiant dmg

Mark of Storm (on each hit):
-- slide: 1 Mark of Storm + 6 Staggering Warhammer + 1 Battering Shield + 1 Telekinetic Focus +1 Controlling Advantage = 10 sq slide
==> move adjacent 5 times: 5 * (7 Cha Spark Slipper + 1 Int Radiant One + 10 Morninglord + 8 Con Pelor's Boon + 6 Psychic Corruption of Malbolge) = 5 * 32 = 160 lightning & fire & radiant dmg

Use Power Attack to optimise missing to trigger BR:
To save us complicated math, we can reduce the whole sequence to the following:
1) Independent of the rest we always crit with 5% chance and thus trigger the crit bonus damage.
2) Sometimes we hit with all attacks, to be exact 60%^4 = 12,96% of the time.
3) Usually we hit with a 60% chance until we miss the first attack with a 40% chance and thereafter with miss 30% chance.
So let's calculate our number of hits: (0,4 * (3 * 0,7)) + (0,6 * 0,4 * (1 + 2 * 0,7)) + (0,6 * 0,6 * 0,4 * (2 + 1 * 0,7)) + (0,6 * 0,6 * 0,6 * 0,4 * 3) + (0,6 * 0,6 * 0,6 *0,6 * 4) = 2,5824 hits

The same way we calculate bonus damage from Gauntlets of Brutality:
-- BB: ((0,4 * 0,7 * 0,7 * 0,7) + (0,6 * 0,4 * 0,7 * 0,7) + (0,6 * 0,6 * 0,4 * 0,7) + (0,6 * 0,6 * 0,6 * (1 + 0,6))) * 5 dmg = 70,12% * 5dmg = 3,506 dmg
-- BR - If we missed one or two attacks, we get the bonus damage on BR as well: (0,4 * 0,7 * 0,7 * 0,7) + (0,4 * 0,3 * 0,7 * 0,7) * 3 + (0,6 * 0,4 * 0,7 * 0,7) + (0,6 * 0,4 * 0,3 * 0,7) * 2 + (0,6 * 0,6 * 0,4 * 1) + (0,6 * 0,6 * 0,6 * 0,4) * 5 dmg * 70% BR to-hit = 76.24% * 5 dmg * 70% BR to-hit = 2,6684 dmg

Critical Hit extra effects:
-- critical hits per round: (4 + 3 * 0,8704) * 0,05 = 0,33056
-- bonus damage on critical hit (teleport above us and adjacent): 32 Spark Slippers + 1d10 falling damage + 12 Ring of Giants = 49,5 dmg

Brutal Barrage (1 PP, 4 attacks) + conditional Brilliant Recovery (3 attacks due two minors due sub-zero fighting):
(1,4176 * 33 + 2,5824 * (33 + 160) + 4 * 0,05 * 26,82) + 0,8704 * 3 * (0,3 * 33 + 0,65 * (64,15 + 160) + 0,05 * (92,82 + 160)) + (3,506 + 2,6684) + 0,33056 * 49,5 = 1012,4 DPR

After Milestone:
-- switch Gauntlets & Rings for Manyfingered Gloves & 3x Ring of Free Time
-- attack three more times with BR
==> (1,4176 * 33 + 2,5824 * (33 + 160) + 4 * 0,05 * 26,82) + 0,8704 * 6 * (0,3 * 33 + 0,65 * (61,5 + 160) + 0,05 * (86 + 160)) + 0,46112 * 37,5 = 1435,7 DPR


Level 30: 2141.0 DMG AP Nova
Changes:
-- on APs we crit on 18+
-- two BBs make trigger BR even more likely
-- we definately use the three Rings of Free Time
-- against higher AC mobs we simply skip using Power Attack and thanks Hammer Rhythm and more precise 2 PP augmented BR can compensate quite well
==> (1,4176 * 33 + 2,5824 * (33 + 160) + 4 * 0,05 * 26,82) + (1,4176 * 33 + 2,5824 * (33 + 160) + 4 * 0,15 * 26,82) * 0,1296 + (1,2 * 33 + 2,8 * (33 + 160) + 4 * 0,15 * 26,82) * 0,8704 + 0,98320384 * 6 * (0,3 * 33 + 0,65 * (61,5 + 160) + 0,05 * (86 + 160)) + 0,49496 * 37,5 = 2141,0 dmg
Huh, what's up ?
Is stuff so broken these days that four-digit at-will DPR is "just another build" ?
I think we're all just gazing in awe and going 'oh', right now, is all.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
;)
To be fair... most of the stuff was already around the boards for some time, and I just combined it.

The real frightning part is rather that 3 feats are pretty easy kick out (Weapon Focus, Secrets of Belial, Power Attack), and you can in fact remove up to three more (MC Psion, Controlling Advantage, Telekintic Focus) and then go single class BM (Hybrid Talent -> Melee Training) and not lose too much DPR, but pump defenses up to even more redicolous levels while still causually slaying Elites...
Huh, what's up ?
Is stuff so broken these days that four-digit at-will DPR is "just another build" ?



It has RAW issues.

Forced Movement is 'Not a Move' and Spark Slippers do damage when a creature moves adjacent to you. So no damage from there.

Crown of the Brilliant Sun means you lose the Lightning Keyword and gain the Radiant one. You're not actually going to do Lightning damage on your target via the Whetstone - you do it to creatures nearby. i.e. if you don't have an enemy nearby, there's a solid RAW argument to be made that you haven't actually added Lightning damage to your attack. i.e. you potentially lose the Lightning Keyword in a couple of different ways which mean no slides and possibly no radiant damage.

Brutal Barrage does not have a damage roll, things like Battle Fury Stance and Power Attack add to damage rolls.
I also still twitch at the "use 1 PP per turn" approach to calculating DPR, as I feel that misses the value of a DPR number (what can you do after you've spent all your resources because a combat turned deadly unexpectedly).

What's the round 9+ DPR?

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Forced Movement is 'Not a Move' and Spark Slippers do damage when a creature moves adjacent to you. So no damage from there.



They changed the rules with PHB3. Discussion here.

Crown of the Brilliant Sun means you lose the Lightning Keyword and gain the Radiant one. You're not actually going to do Lightning damage on your target via the Whetstone - you do it to creatures nearby. i.e. if you don't have an enemy nearby, there's a solid RAW argument to be made that you haven't actually added Lightning damage to your attack. i.e. you potentially lose the Lightning Keyword in a couple of different ways which mean no slides and possibly no radiant damage.



I checked the exact wording before posting this.
-- Lightning Whetstone: Confers the Lightning keyword to the power without the attack actually doing Lightning damage.
-- Crown of the Brilliant Sun: Requires only the Lightning keyword, not the power itself doing Lightning damage. Due the fact how the Lightning Whetstone works, we now have a Radiant and Lightning attack.
(... and all this is relevant only at level 16 anyway, where there's still much potential left if you optimise specifically for that level.)

Brutal Barrage does not have a damage roll, things like Battle Fury Stance and Power Attack add to damage rolls.



I don't add any damage from these sources to BB.
Power Attack is only used at level 30 to voluntarily lower my attack bonus and force BR to trigger, so I don't have to rely on shenangians like "I close my eyes to blind myself".

I also still twitch at the "use 1 PP per turn" approach to calculating DPR, as I feel that misses the value of a DPR number (what can you do after you've spent all your resources because a combat turned deadly unexpectedly).

What's the round 9+ DPR?



First there are ways to recover PPs (Cognise Crystals, Daily powers with appropriate effects, ...), and we have 10 to start with.

But if we really run out of PPs and there's still stuff left - *wow* btw - we simply use a 3 attack BB.
Didn't run exact numbers, but we're still well over 800 DPR pre / 1200 DPR post MS.
But if we really run out of PPs and there's still stuff left - *wow*

IME, things like that happen in real games when the DM is actively trying to challenge the party, but doesn't quite completely understand 4e character's front-loaded nature.  (Not that 800 DPR characters should find themselves in real games)

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Hehe, true.
Although the thing is we don't actually need to expend this 1 PP / round in normal situations. As long as we only attack a regular mob we still kill it easily with an unaugmented 3 attack BB (and maybe a follow-up BR if we missed often) - likely even killing Elites that way...
Forced Movement is 'Not a Move' and Spark Slippers do damage when a creature moves adjacent to you. So no damage from there.



They changed the rules with PHB3. Discussion here.



Yes and no. Read Forced Movement in Compendium which still has specific language stating that it is 'Not a Move'

You can argue what their intent was on this one, but mostly obvious RAI is not RAW as it is also mostly obvious RAI that Spark Slippers weren't intended to work with Forced Movement.

Crown of the Brilliant Sun means you lose the Lightning Keyword and gain the Radiant one. You're not actually going to do Lightning damage on your target via the Whetstone - you do it to creatures nearby. i.e. if you don't have an enemy nearby, there's a solid RAW argument to be made that you haven't actually added Lightning damage to your attack. i.e. you potentially lose the Lightning Keyword in a couple of different ways which mean no slides and possibly no radiant damage.



I checked the exact wording before posting this.
-- Lightning Whetstone: Confers the Lightning keyword to the power without the attack actually doing Lightning damage.
-- Crown of the Brilliant Sun: Requires only the Lightning keyword, not the power itself doing Lightning damage. Due the fact how the Lightning Whetstone works, we now have a Radiant and Lightning attack.
(... and all this is relevant only at level 16 anyway, where there's still much potential left if you optimise specifically for that level.)

 
 

Read PHB3 - if the damage type in a power change, the power both loses the keywords for any damage types that are removed(all damage types other than radiant) and gains the keywords for any damage types that are added(radiant)
Yes and no. Read Forced Movement in Compendium which still has specific language stating that it is 'Not a Move'

You can argue what their intent was on this one, but mostly obvious RAI is not RAW as it is also mostly obvious RAI that Spark Slippers weren't intended to work with Forced Movement.



No need to argue intent...
From the compendium:
Forced Movement: "Not a Move: Forced movement doesn’t count against a target’s ability to move on its turn. A target’s speed is irrelevant to the distance you move it."
Move: "Whenever a creature, an object, or an effect leaves a square to enter another, it is moving, whether that move is done willingly or is forced. This means shifting, teleporting, and being pushed are all moves, for example."
The compendium is very clear there.

Crown of the Brilliant Sun means you lose the Lightning Keyword and gain the Radiant one. You're not actually going to do Lightning damage on your target via the Whetstone - you do it to creatures nearby. i.e. if you don't have an enemy nearby, there's a solid RAW argument to be made that you haven't actually added Lightning damage to your attack. i.e. you potentially lose the Lightning Keyword in a couple of different ways which mean no slides and possibly no radiant damage.



I checked the exact wording before posting this.
-- Lightning Whetstone: Confers the Lightning keyword to the power without the attack actually doing Lightning damage.
-- Crown of the Brilliant Sun: Requires only the Lightning keyword, not the power itself doing Lightning damage. Due the fact how the Lightning Whetstone works, we now have a Radiant and Lightning attack.
(... and all this is relevant only at level 16 anyway, where there's still much potential left if you optimise specifically for that level.)

  

Read PHB3 - if the damage type in a power change, the power both loses the keywords for any damage types that are removed(all damage types other than radiant) and gains the keywords for any damage types that are added(radiant)



The whole point is that I use a Lightning power without dealing Lightning damage due the strange way the Whetstone works. (Btw: Whetstones are really a whole source of power creep in themselves.) Hence I gain Radiant without losing Lightning - and CotBS only requires the keyword in the power, not actual damage.
But in any way - if it makes you happy exchange one of the unused level 16 feats, like Secrets of Belial or Death's Quickening, for Pervasive Light - problem solved.

... and if that's still not enough I can make an actual level 16 build that does even more damage than this - it just doesn't perfectly flow into the level 30 build anymore.
Lets see how the Crown of the Brilliant Sun works:

"When you hit an enemy with a lightning power and deal damage to it, you can deal radiant damage instead."

1. You attack with a lightning power, no radiant keyword yet
2. You hit with a lightning power, no radiant keyword yet
3. You deal damage and you choose to deal radiant damage instead, power gains radiant keyword

Keywords do not change until the damage types change.  When you hit, the damage type has not changed yet, so you are not hitting with a radiant power.  That means the morninglord vulnerability is not applied, because it requires you to hit with a radiant power. 


Same for Radiant One:

"Whenever you deal damage to a target that is granting combat advantage to you, you deal extra fire and radiant damage to the target equal to your Intelligence modifier."

1. You attack a target that is granting combat advantage to you, damage types have not changed yet, so your attack does not gain the radiant and fire keywords.
2. You hit a target that is granting combat advantage to you, damage types have not changed yet, so your attack does not gain the radiant and fire keywords.
3. You deal damage to a target that is granting combat advantage to you, you deal extra fire and radiant damage, your power gains the radiant and fire keywords.  This happens too late to affect anything that requres the keywords to be there when you hit.

Another thing is the use of the word "target", this feature probably requires the damage to come from something that has a target line, so it would not work with Spark Slippers, for example.
Juicy build!

-- Headman's Chop: 5 bonus damage when prone (after two hits with BB) --> 49% prone after two attacks (80% * 80%); 29,4% prone after three attacks (20% * 80% * 80% + 80% * 20% * 80%)




BB doesn't prone a target until all 3 or 4 attacks have resolved. The wording of "If you hit the target 2 or more times [...]" (emphasis mine) denotes that the target doesn't fall prone as soon as 2 hits are scored but instead if 2, 3 or 4 hits were scored in the Attack lines. I'm not sure if that was accounted for in your math but just wanted to say.

Nice work.
Juicy build!

-- Headman's Chop: 5 bonus damage when prone (after two hits with BB) --> 49% prone after two attacks (80% * 80%); 29,4% prone after three attacks (20% * 80% * 80% + 80% * 20% * 80%)




BB doesn't prone a target until all 3 or 4 attacks have resolved. The wording of "If you hit the target 2 or more times [...]" (emphasis mine) denotes that the target doesn't fall prone as soon as 2 hits are scored but instead if 2, 3 or 4 hits were scored in the Attack lines. I'm not sure if that was accounted for in your math but just wanted to say.

Nice work.




I disagree. It would take effect as it is in the "effect line" which happens continuasly during the use of the power rather then twords the resolution of the power.

Effect from compendium
"Anything that appears in an “Effect” entry occurs when you use the power, whether or not you hit with it, if it is an attack power."
By that wording i would say that the increase in damage would take effect on the 3rd swing.(4th if augmented)
I made a more defensive/less cheesy Battlemind|Paladin a while ago, built around mass-sanctioning.  The build has some similarities, but it's intended more for AP than TO and more for defending than damage.  Link -> community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

You really want Spectral Legion as an at-will in heroic.  It's a lot better than bull's strength, letting you seriously debuff melee mobs.  Since you won't have your crazy DPR online yet, the added control is nice.  If you can spare the feats, I'd also reccomend grabbing Tiefling Soul + Wrath of the Crimson Legion; it's pretty much melee training + a great mass sanction power which makes you a much better defender in the crucial first round of combat.
If you need LOTS more powerpoints,
the party Ardent can use Feast Of Despair 9
and send the points to you long distance.

Ardent / Swordmaster / Godmind can:
1st FoD
1st Sw20 recharges FoD
2nd FoD
Godmind 26 recharges both
3rd FoD
2nd Sw20 recharges FoD
4th FoD
... range is vision.
then everybody runs around, enjoying the ~2 powerpoints per round til End of Encounter.
Daily nova (though).

5E mini- SRD available now in HTML here:  http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop/players-basic-rules

 

@Melos:
Sorry, that's simply not how it works. Read any number of threads here - for example the (in)famous Arcane Slasher as former DPR king that uses exactly the same mechanic...

@crabcouton:
Glad you like it.
Chosenofragnarok explained the detail very well. And even if it would only be a minor change to the DPR.

@embertiger:
You can easily free up 6 or 7 feats (see post #4) and make it into a regular single class BM, MC Paladin - this is just for demonstration purpose only and not with much focus on defense.
The low level power picks are largely there as fillers, because I needed power to replace, so feel free to change what you like. Spectral Legion wouldn't be my primary pick, and I like Bull's Strength to round up mobs so I can control more than one - but tastes vary in that regard.

@Awaken:
Nice find.
In fact it would make a shrewd sense to put it on MM himself (target "one creature") once per fight - you'll not do too much damage, he can compsate the -2 and he generates more than enough misses to refill his own and your PP reservoir... Laughing
Nicely done. As you pointed out, there's room for optimization at level 16. Here's a build that uses basically the same idea for 220 DPR at level 16. It has problems on the defensive side, but makes up for low defenses by punishing enemies for attacking.

The Blender, level 16 Genasi, Battlemind|Sorcerer, Lightning Fury

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
The Blender, level 16
Genasi, Battlemind|Sorcerer, Lightning Fury
Sorcerous Power: Sorcerous Power Dexterity
Hybrid Talent: Soul of the Sorcerer
Soul of the Sorcerer: Storm Soul
Psionic Augmentation (Hybrid): Hybrid Power Point Option
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Light Blade)
Arcane Implement Proficiency: Arcane Implement Proficiency (heavy blade group)
Elemental Manifestation: Stormsoul
FINAL ABILITY SCORES Str 13, Con 20, Dex 16, Int 13, Wis 9, Cha 18.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES Str 10, Con 17, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 14.

AC: 29 Fort: 28 Reflex: 26 Will: 28 HP: 108 Surges: 12 Surge Value: 27
TRAINED SKILLS History +14, Arcana +14, Endurance +20
UNTRAINED SKILLS Acrobatics +11, Bluff +12, Diplomacy +12, Dungeoneering +7, Heal +7, Insight +7, Intimidate +12, Nature +9, Perception +7, Religion +9, Stealth +11, Streetwise +12, Thievery +11, Athletics +9
FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Versatile Expertise
Level 4: Arcane Implement Proficiency
Level 6: Mark of Storm
Level 8: Deadly Draw
Level 10: Unarmored Agility
Level 11: Shocking Flame
Level 12: Melee Training (Constitution)
Level 14: Opportunity Sidestep
Level 16: Paragon Defenses
POWERS
Hybrid at-will 1: Lightning Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Twisted Eye
Psionic Defense (Hybrid): Blurred step
Hybrid daily 1: Shocking Magnetism
Hybrid utility 2: Dragonflame Mantle
Hybrid encounter 3: Flame Spiral
Hybrid daily 5: Nightmare Vortex
Hybrid utility 6: Psionic Ambush
Hybrid at-will/encounter 7: Psionic Speed
Hybrid daily 9: Glacial Armor
Hybrid utility 10: Chaotic Defense
Hybrid at-will/encounter 13: Brutal Barrage (replaces Twisted Eye)
Hybrid daily 15: Lightning Daggers (replaces Shocking Magnetism)
Hybrid utility 16: Fog Form
ITEMS
Rhythm Blade Dagger +1, Helm of Opportunity (heroic tier), Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier), Evil Eye Fetish +3, Rushing Cleats (heroic tier), Waistband of the Grappler (paragon tier), Staggering Longsword +4, Magic Feyweave Armor +4



191 DPR/255 with PP

attack is +22-2 (waistband of the grappler)+2 (CA)=22 vs. 30 (65%)
BB does 5 (Con)+2 (shocking flame)=7 per attack
each attack slides 1 (Mark of Storm)+ 4 (staggering weapon) +1 (rushing cleats)=6
each time an square is entered by the enemy, Lightning Field deals 2d6+Dex+5 (waistband of the grappler)=15 damage

(Waistband of the grappler gives +5 to damage rolls at the cost of -2 to attack and granting CA)

3*(.65*(7+ 6*(15))+.05*(14))=191.25

Assuming combat advantage in this case gives less than a 2% error, given deadly draw and the number of attacks. 
 

Also note: Nightmare Vortex definitely lives up to its name here.


Credit where it's due: the idea I've presented here owes something to posts in the "Hellblade" thread.

edit: updated damage and defenses after realizing I can't take telekinetic savant (thanks to langeweile), and switching it for paragon defenses.

edit: Level 30 version with 1095 DPR is here

Very nice build there - hell of some DPR !
And considering that you in fact do get a damage roll, there's probably still quite some potential...

Would be interesting to see how it turned out at level 30 as well - given that you can trigger twice as often and Radiant One is still available, that could be quite some damage, too.

Suggestions:
1) If you want to maximise DPR you can MC Psion and grab Controlling Advantage as well.
2) If you want to take it higher in level you could grab some Champions Rings to add some Lightning vulnerability.
Edit: 3) And are you sure you don't want to switch races and just rely on Whetstones to get Lightning on your attacks ? There's bound to be some picks with better stats and maybe even some feats and features that you can exploit...

Edit: I actually think you cannot take Telekinetic Savant. It's bound to having the Wild Soul (or something) Psionic Study - look it up in post #1. The problem is that your Hybrid Talent is blocked already for Soul of the Sorceror.
Thanks for the suggestions.

Suggestions:
1) If you want to maximise DPR you can MC Psion and grab Controlling Advantage as well.


True. Probably would do this at higher level. At 16 I could drop opportunity sidestep and paragon defenses to go back up to the original DPR. I'm too fond of the idea of making the enemy walk into the lightning field on an OA with the sidestep, though.


2) If you want to take it higher in level you could grab some Champions Rings to add some Lightning vulnerability.
Edit: 3) And are you sure you don't want to switch races and just rely on Whetstones to get Lightning on your attacks ? There's bound to be some picks with better stats and maybe even some feats and features that you can exploit...



Lightning vulnerability would definitely make the damage explode (255 without a PP, at least). However, champions rings and whetstones are both daily item uses, so I'm trying to avoid them for at-will DPR. It probably doesn't matter at higher levels, but I'm trying to stick to the letter of the law.
Just realized the encounter nova on my build is huge. A Flame Spiral in the buildup round leads to an additional 1d6+4 (enh) +(5 sorcerous power)+5 (waistband)=17.5 damage _per slide square_.

With an action point and two 1 PP brutal barrages, this is 1056 damage in a nova.

Geez, this is getting more redicolous with each post. (Not that is was sane at all to start with...)
Some nice "fixing" PHB3 did there to treat Forced Movement like a regular move.

Actually, i jumped the gun, there. Flame Spiral is until _start_ of next turn. Nova damage is "only" 510.
I know this is off topic and that there is a thread for questions like this, but your mentioning of forced moves counting as moves raised a question for  me regarding battleminds and about what constitutes a "provoked" opportunity action.  you guys seem pretty informed, hopefully you can help me out with this.  first, some text.

From the compendium:
Move: "Whenever a creature, an object, or an effect leaves a square to enter another, it is moving, whether that move is done willingly or is forced. This means shifting, teleporting, and being pushed are all moves, for example."

From PBH1:
No Opportunity Attacks: Forced movement does not provoke opportunity attacks or other opportunity actions.

From Relentless Strike,  lvl19 Battlemind daily attack, PBH3:
Trigger: An adjacent enemy marked by you moves without shifting

Say i have a Battlemind in his Relentless Strike stance, and i use Bull's Strength to push the enemy one square away.  Will this trigger the opportunity action granted by my stance, or is  triggering equal to provoking?
The probable intent, and thus the way most DMs will rule, is that Relentless Strike is using "move" as the movement action, and thus forced movement will not apply.  The hint that this is the case is the "without shifting" clause.

The compendium definition of move is talking about "Wall of Fire" effects and the like.  You can't shift into it safely, nor can you be pushed into it safely.  No matter how you "moved into" the space of the fire, you're getting burned.  Spark Slippers probably are intended to work the same way.

Now, of course, RAW is more ambigious, because of the overloaded uses of the word move, and thus permits tricks.  But don't expect it to work even at an LFR table.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Say i have a Battlemind in his Relentless Strike stance, and i use Bull's Strength to push the enemy one square away.  Will this trigger the opportunity action granted by my stance, or is  triggering equal to provoking?


You can't make OAs on your own turn regardless. The question isn't without merit, though, since sometimes you can be granted the use of an at-will power on someone else's turn. (Quite a corner case though)
The world is a mess, I just need to... rule it.
Say i have a Battlemind in his Relentless Strike stance, and i use Bull's Strength to push the enemy one square away.  Will this trigger the opportunity action granted by my stance, or is  triggering equal to provoking?


You can't make OAs on your own turn regardless. The question isn't without merit, though, since sometimes you can be granted the use of an at-will power on someone else's turn. (Quite a corner case though)



The relentless strike stance grants I started by trying to explain Opportunity Actions and stuff, but you already know it.  When I asked here, they said trigger is provoke.
Just noticed: since your build is a tiefling in life anyway, you might want to add hell's burning mark (unless you already have fire vulnerability in there somewhere).

I disagree. It would take effect as it is in the "effect line" which happens continuasly during the use of the power rather then twords the resolution of the power.

Effect from compendium
"Anything that appears in an “Effect” entry occurs when you use the power, whether or not you hit with it, if it is an attack power."
By that wording i would say that the increase in damage would take effect on the 3rd swing.(4th if augmented)


You're taking a rule out of context to assert the opposite of what it states. It is there to clarify that the Effect entry of a power occurs whether the Attack roll scored a Miss or a Hit. It does not say anything about this supposed "continuous" quality of Effects that you claim.

I disagree. It would take effect as it is in the "effect line" which happens continuasly during the use of the power rather then twords the resolution of the power.

Effect from compendium
"Anything that appears in an “Effect” entry occurs when you use the power, whether or not you hit with it, if it is an attack power."
By that wording i would say that the increase in damage would take effect on the 3rd swing.(4th if augmented)


You're taking a rule out of context to assert the opposite of what it states. It is there to clarify that the Effect entry of a power occurs whether the Attack roll scored a Miss or a Hit. It does not say anything about this supposed "continuous" quality of Effects that you claim.




I'm not taking it out of context Actualy if any thing the effect goes off when you use the power which would be when your declaring the power being used, before you even roll a hit. So there for it would be in effect before you even attacked so all you have to do is roll two or more hits to knock it prone.

I don't know if this is a house rule we came up with or it has some support somewhere but this is how we do it:

If the effect line is before the attack line, the effect happens before you make the attack(s).

If the effect line is after the attack line and hit line, the effect happens after you resolve everything in the attack line and hit line.

In this case, wth Brutal Barrage, you'd attack, make all 3-4 attacks, then after all of that has resolved, see how many attacks hit, and if it meets the requirement, then the enemy is knocked prone.


Anyone else know if this is supported via rules somewhere?

Sig
Yes, I killed your BBEG with his own lair:
Setting: Tomb with a perilous bridge and cliff 100 feet above a lava pit. Mummy pops out of his sarcophagus, initiative: Felix, Half-Elf Artificer: Twin Strike with crossbow. Trump (ala Donald), Eladrin Warlord: Charges mummy with Opening Shove, pushing off the cliff. Mummy fails saving throw, and falls into pit. Sanshiro (ala Japanese "superhero" Segata), Minotaur Barbarian: Strength check to lift sarcophagus and carry to cliff. Free action, drop sarcophagus into square above mummy. Sarcophagus drops on mummy, shoving him further down into lava. Mummy: proceeds to make a series of horrible athletics checks to swim and climb cliff. Dies a horrible death with lava permeating every orifice. Entire Party: Watches on in delight, faces alit with the glow of lava and flaming undead.
Original CharOpper
I soap myself up, and turn up the hot water in the shower, so my sweat mixes with the soap, slickening my skin: +5 to grapple I use my own legs as a shield since only upper-body hits matter: +5 defense I use my teammates bodies to construct a vehicle for myself, and dual-wield their weapons because as long as I win, we all win: +10 attack, +10 defense I completely ignore the enemy, their attacks, the devastating damage they are dealing to me and my team, and strike directly for their base, completely obliterating them, their way of life, and any chance they had at survival as a species: WIN Ender: The Original CharOpper and Power Gamer.

I'm not taking it out of context Actualy if any thing the effect goes off when you use the power which would be when your declaring the power being used, before you even roll a hit. So there for it would be in effect before you even attacked so all you have to do is roll two or more hits to knock it prone.



I'm pretty sure the timing of the effect is determined by it's placement in the power. Effects that occur before the attack are written before the attack line of the power (see Seeking Brand Avenger Encounter 1). Effects that occur after the attack power are written afterwards. I'm not sure how that works with multi-attacks. With Brutal Barrage, it seems reasonable that the enemy would go prone immediately after the second hit based on the flavor of the power. However, the assertion that Effects happen when you declare the power being used is completely false.

I'm not taking it out of context Actualy if any thing the effect goes off when you use the power which would be when your declaring the power being used, before you even roll a hit. So there for it would be in effect before you even attacked so all you have to do is roll two or more hits to knock it prone.



I'm pretty sure the timing of the effect is determined by it's placement in the power. Effects that occur before the attack are written before the attack line of the power (see Seeking Brand Avenger Encounter 1). Effects that occur after the attack power are written afterwards. I'm not sure how that works with multi-attacks. With Brutal Barrage, it seems reasonable that the enemy would go prone immediately after the second hit based on the flavor of the power. However, the assertion that Effects happen when you declare the power being used is completely false.



I guess then" occurs when you use the  power" To me using the power is when you declare you are using it(as in there is no going back the power is expended kinda deal.

When then are you considered to use the power? when you make your first roll? when you declare targets??

Though raiziel does bring up a good point with effect: line being in multiple places. Though as per the line i quoted, the effect line comes into play when you use the power. When are you considered to be using the power i guess is the question?

I always assume/ the way we play is when you are declaring targets.

I guess then" occurs when you use the  power" To me using the power is when you declare you are using it(as in there is no going back the power is expended kinda deal.

When then are you considered to use the power? when you make your first roll? when you declare targets??

Though raiziel does bring up a good point with effect: line being in multiple places. Though as per the line i quoted, the effect line comes into play when you use the power. When are you considered to be using the power i guess is the question?

I always assume/ the way we play is when you are declaring targets.



I was making the same point as Raziel, he just hit submit before me. As crabcrouton pointed out already, you're focusing too closely on that one specific phrase in that one specific line the rules. That line is supposed to clarify that effects happen regardless of whether you hit. I don't have the books in front of me, but I'm pretty sure the "How to read a power" section of the more recent books specifies that the placement of the Effect line within an attack power determines when the effect takes place. That is the rule you need to be looking at, not the one about whether an Effect works even on a miss.

I guess then" occurs when you use the  power" To me using the power is when you declare you are using it(as in there is no going back the power is expended kinda deal.

When then are you considered to use the power? when you make your first roll? when you declare targets??

Though raiziel does bring up a good point with effect: line being in multiple places. Though as per the line i quoted, the effect line comes into play when you use the power. When are you considered to be using the power i guess is the question?

I always assume/ the way we play is when you are declaring targets.



I was making the same point as Raziel, he just hit submit before me. As crabcrouton pointed out already, you're focusing too closely on that one specific phrase in that one specific line the rules. That line is supposed to clarify that effects happen regardless of whether you hit. I don't have the books in front of me, but I'm pretty sure the "How to read a power" section of the more recent books specifies that the placement of the Effect line within an attack power determines when the effect takes place. That is the rule you need to be looking at, not the one about whether an Effect works even on a miss.





No its not in the phb.

Theres mention in the phb2
"Sequence: The order of information in a power
description is a general guide to the sequence in
which the power’s various effects occur. For example,
an “Effect” entry might appear above attack information
in a power description to indicate that something
happens before you make the attack."


So i stand corrected.
Murderous Mind



Very nice, 1k dpr works again, didn't think BB+BR would go that high !

Some minor stuff:
* Psychic corruption won't be triggered by spark slippers (since spark slippers effect is no power, and the corruption was changed to affect only your powers unfortunately).
* It might also not be triggered by hammer rhythm misses (kinda depends: is hammer rhythm damage damage from your powers or not ? )
* The extra minor action of revenant seems to be only be aviable until the first death save (check out melloreds handbook on the first page)
* Also, crit teleport above might allow the enemy to save vs. this forced movement (no reference, sorry. i currently don't follow the forums closely) -> *0.5 to crit damage.
* Rings of Free Time are lvl 30 items, so getting 3 of them is somewhat questionable. If its just theorycraft, add a mummified hand for a total of 4 rings of free time... ^^
* I like to use gloves for the mark of storms damage necessary - they add some DPR and there is no wiggle room for keyword transference etc. 
Thanks !

* Psychic corruption won't be triggered by spark slippers (since spark slippers effect is no power, and the corruption was changed to affect only your powers unfortunately).
* The extra minor action of revenant seems to be only be aviable until the first death save (check out melloreds handbook on the first page)



You're right. The loss of Fire Vul stings, but the loss of the minor can well be compensated by skipping sub-zero and Power Attack shenangians. At least the post-MS DPR is still over 1k.
(I still don't quite agree with CS on the ruling for the sub-zero party, though... But that's not a matter to discuss here.)

* Also, crit teleport above might allow the enemy to save vs. this forced movement (no reference, sorry. i currently don't follow the forums closely) -> *0.5 to crit damage.



Usually the target is already prone, except if I crit on the first hit.
And then I'd just skip the fall and just teleport it to another square, so I'd just lose the d10 - was too lazy to do that math, though.

* Rings of Free Time are lvl 30 items, so getting 3 of them is somewhat questionable. If its just theorycraft, add a mummified hand for a total of 4 rings of free time... ^^



I used the usual fluid wealth, and as I don't have any other high level items I can easily afford those. ;)

* I like to use gloves for the mark of storms damage necessary - they add some DPR and there is no wiggle room for keyword transference etc.



You already noticed that these particular gloves only work UENOT.
Also the Whetstones offer some more cheese due slapping on the Lightning keyword without actually doing Lightning damage to the target itself.

I'll note the two relevant concerns with significant impact in the OP, but leave it as is - too lazy to redo all again. Suffice to say that with a more wacky build (Paladin -> Avenger, crit-fishing, Cha -> Int) my estimates were at about 1.2-1.3k, so even with the loss I could keep it there.
But I actually reviewed Kergma's approach, and if you build it right you can ooze out even more DPR. But I'm still looking for a good way to keep Vul Rad going - either reliable crits + Power of Sun (plus harder Punishing Radiance) or some way to bring in Reagents again (maybe after the next Update). Also better exploitation of the full damage roll would help.
I'm too lazy to look at exactly how all of this build combos together, but I just noticed the wilder dark sun theme paragon feat allows crits on all attacks on a roll of 16-20 if you hit with the theme's encounter power. Seems like a gold power for any crit-fisher nova build.
I hadn't realized there were that many +damage mods that didn't require the coveted "damage roll".  I'd be more impressed if I wasn't still ashamed of Wotc for not having errata'd Mark of Storm to just increase forced movement by 1.

I am curious why people use a comma instead of a period when showing decimals.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.

I am curious why people use a comma instead of a period when showing decimals.



Europeans swap the usage of periods and commas for numbers. For example three thousand nine hundred and a quarter is would be written as 3.900,25.
Just wanted to thank you for identifying the next items to be errata'd in October Wink.  
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