## Where does 20/40/60 come from?

19 posts / 0 new
Rerednaw
Joined Dec 1969
Just curious. I see many references to these numbers. Also are they meant to be applicable for the bottom of each tier?

Are these 'minimums' for practical striker optimization? Or is this to put them in the theorectical category?

Thanks.
They are meant to be the baseline numbers for Striker DPR (which inlcudes miss chance and criticals) at the end of each tier (Levels 10, 20, and 30). I would consider it practical optimization to reach these values, except maybe 20 DPR at level 10. That one has proven to be hard to reach for some Strikers.
"The best defense is a good offense." -Gen. George S. Patton Also known as: LDB. Got questions on how to build characters for 4E? Check out the Complete Collection of Character Build Links for some advice. My 4E CharOp Threads:
borg285
Joined Dec 1969
A nice analysis of DPR baselines is found in the Baseline DPR: What numbers should I be looking for section
Also my signature is a summary of that.

NOTE: Just a small point to make.  Focusing on 20 DPR at level 10 is, as LDB said, really hard, but geting 20+ DPR at level 11 is much easier.  That's why I make the formula based on level implying that these numbers are limits but divergence is implied, and especially around the tier jumps (10-11, 20-21)
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
borg285
Joined Dec 1969
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
rerednaw
Joined Dec 1969
Cool beans!  Thanks for the info.

I found a DPR calc (DnD 4E DPR Comparifier) dunno how accurate it is but I tried a few of my toons in it.

My level 1 superior crossbow (human, dex 18, backstabber, sharpshooter) rogue came in at 15.38 and that's with CA.  Without he's at 6.88.  Quite a point spread.  Bumping his dex to 20 upped it to 17.15 with CA and 8.10 without but pretty much makes him impractical out of combat.    A Dex 20 Wilden with Aspect of the Hunter (+1d6) can do better with 18.45 with CA but that's very situational.

Not bad for a thematic (stealthy sniper) build.

Let me see how my other characters rate.
==============================
A human monk (crashing tempest, crane's wing) comes in with a pitiful 10.13.
Monks are pretty awful for a striker class then...bummer.

Dragonborn Fire Sorcerer (Dragon Magic): 9.6.  Even worse than the monk.

Alcestis
Joined Oct 2009
8509 Posts
Cool beans!  Thanks for the info.

I found a DPR calc (DnD 4E DPR Comparifier) dunno how accurate it is but I tried a few of my toons in it.

My level 1 superior crossbow (human, dex 18, backstabber, sharpshooter) rogue came in at 15.38 and that's with CA.  Without he's at 6.88.  Quite a point spread.  Bumping his dex to 20 upped it to 17.15 with CA and 8.10 without but pretty much makes him impractical out of combat.    A Dex 20 Wilden with Aspect of the Hunter (+1d6) can do better with 18.45 with CA but that's very situational.

Not bad for a thematic (stealthy sniper) build.

Let me see how my other characters rate.
==============================
A human monk (crashing tempest, crane's wing) comes in with a pitiful 10.13.
Monks are pretty awful for a striker class then...bummer.

Dragonborn Fire Sorcerer (Dragon Magic): 9.6.  Even worse than the monk.

20/40/60 refers to levels 10/20/30. So using a level 1 character is wrong. I imagine if you graphed it something like 50% miss chance, 1d8+1d6+4 would be the baseline for level 1 At-Will. 6-8 DPR at level 1.
the_yakk
Joined Dec 1969
What I like doing is stealing the "normalized defences" trick and applying it to DPR.

To "normalize defences" (and attacks), you subtract your level.  So if you have a +7 to hit at level 1, that is a normalized attack of +6.

As monster attacks and defences go up by +1 per level, this lets you compare a level 1 character to a level 23 character, and figure out who has "better" attacks/defences, without having to memorize what the expected attacks/defences of a level 23 character is.

Borg's sig:
Baseline Striker DPR : 2*level+6 (4 round striker)
Highly Optimized DPR: 4*level+12(2 round striker)
Nerfbat please          : 8*level+24(1 round striker)

Is based off the number of rounds, on average, it takes to kill an even-level opponent who isn't extra-high in HP, or extra-low in HP.  Monster HP is about 8 * level + 24.

Reworking it, this is 8 * (level+3).

So if we divide our DPR by (level+3), we get a value that is normalized against our level.

My level 1 superior crossbow (human, dex 18, backstabber, sharpshooter) rogue came in at 15.38 and that's with CA.  Without he's at 6.88.  Quite a point spread.  Bumping his dex to 20 upped it to 17.15 with CA and 8.10 without but pretty much makes him impractical out of combat.    A Dex 20 Wilden with Aspect of the Hunter (+1d6) can do better with 18.45 with CA but that's very situational.

At level 1, level+3 is 4.  So we divide the numbers above by 4.

3.845 normalized DPR with CA, and 1.72 normalized DPR without.

1.0 is "weak sauce". (8 rounds to kill an even-level opponent)
1.3 is "decent non-striker". (6 rounds to kill an even-level opponent)
2.0 is "baseline striker". (4 rounds to kill an even-level opponent)
4.0 is "highly optimized DPR". (2 rounds to kill an even-level opponent)
8.0 is "nerfbat please". (1 round to kill an even-level opponent)
16.0 is "nova nerfbat" (1 round to kill an even-level elite)
32.0 is "division by zero" (1 round to kill an even-level solo)

(name not stolen from borg made up by me)
ShakaUVM
Joined Dec 1969
They are meant to be the baseline numbers for Striker DPR (which inlcudes miss chance and criticals) at the end of each tier (Levels 10, 20, and 30). I would consider it practical optimization to reach these values, except maybe 20 DPR at level 10. That one has proven to be hard to reach for some Strikers.

Part of the problem, though is that this discounts encounter powers, assuming that DPR asymptotically approaches your sustained DPR level given a long enough combat.

But combat doesn't last that long... maybe 4 on average. But if combat lasts 4 rounds, and you have three encounter powers, at-will DPR is almost irrelevant.

For example, Vitaly's sustained DPR would be around... 7. But if  combat is 4 rounds long, he gets 60 or 70DPR (at 11th level) just off his 1st round alone.

A better metric would be total damage in an encounter, given three baseline encounters (solo, elite + 4 normals, 8 normals).

borg285
Joined Dec 1969
I agree that a better number to represent the effectiveness of a build would be a scenario and observe how he uses his encounter and daily powers.  This type of competition is rather to difficult to orchestrate and takes too much time for candidates to properly submit for.  I wanted to make a place where people could post a build and do a simple DPR calculation as a first order approximation.

Another problem is that many builds focus so hard on their at-will that they choose encounter powers for extraneous circumstances and their at-will is truly the best they can spit out.

@The_Yakk:  Very nice upgrade to my analysis.  I'll include it as a link in my DPR king candidates.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
kilpatds
Joined Dec 1969
The reason I like DPR, even though it's exactly as non-accurate as you say, is that things go wrong.  DPR is what you're left with as a baseline after everthing else went wrong.  When the BBEG was actually just a minion, and the BBEG walked in in round 5.  And then summoned his bodyguards in round 7.

If you're running through stock encounters (modules, LFR) then I agree.  DPR-over-the-first-4-rounds is much more important.  DPR only matters when the Dm starts reacting to your optimization.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

ShakaUVM
Joined Dec 1969
The reason I like DPR, even though it's exactly as non-accurate as you say, is that things go wrong.  DPR is what you're left with as a baseline after everthing else went wrong.

That's what dailies are for. If you miss with all of your encounter powers and the combat is going south... time to bust out the dailies.

auspex7
Joined Dec 1969
The reason I like DPR, even though it's exactly as non-accurate as you say, is that things go wrong.  DPR is what you're left with as a baseline after everthing else went wrong.  When the BBEG was actually just a minion, and the BBEG walked in in round 5.  And then summoned his bodyguards in round 7.

If you're running through stock encounters (modules, LFR) then I agree.  DPR-over-the-first-4-rounds is much more important.  DPR only matters when the Dm starts reacting to your optimization.

This.

At-Will DPR is often the most dependable sort available. It is *usually* less swingy than Enc and Daily based DPR, as it doesn't rely on specific shots landing-- like that first d20 you throw at Storm of Blades.
Jay_Ibero_911
Joined Feb 2006
5624 Posts
The reason I like DPR, even though it's exactly as non-accurate as you say, is that things go wrong.  DPR is what you're left with as a baseline after everthing else went wrong.

That's what dailies are for. If you miss with all of your encounter powers and the combat is going south... time to bust out the dailies.

Isn't it be more productive to use dailies to prevent  combat from going south to begin with?

Current LFR Characters

LFR: Embrace the travelling carnival of exotic murder hobos. - Bargle0

In the games I play in, that is how I play ... burn the dailies ASAP if a situation presents itself ... and action points ... etc.
rerednaw
Joined Dec 1969
In the games I play in, that is how I play ... burn the dailies ASAP if a situation presents itself ... and action points ... etc.

I pretty much do that, burn the daily assuming that it will miss and count on the ongoing effect or the miss effect.  Although that last two times I used my daily, I crit both times....which was funny as heck.

auspex7
Joined Dec 1969
In the games I play in, that is how I play ... burn the dailies ASAP if a situation presents itself ... and action points ... etc.

This is probably true for many of us, but consider this example:

Avenger:
Sample Turns:

1.
(move)
(minor) Oath
(standard) Overwhelming Strike -or- charge. This is your minion-check.

(Immediate Reaction) Strikebacks

2.
(standard) Overwhelming Strike
(Free) Holy Blessing
(move) as needed/desired

(Immediate Reaction) Relentless Stride

3.
(minor) Righteous Rage of Tempus
(standard) Overwhelming Strike
(move)
--Action Point--
(standard) Overwhelming Strike

4.
(minor) Oath
(move) as needed
(standard) Avenger's Demand

5.
(standard) Overwhelming Strike
(minor)
(move) as needed

etc.

Now... Rangers often do very similar things by using Twin Strike as their central attack, and surrounding it with non-Standard attacks. The same can be true for Rogues. The point here is probably obvious-- I wanted to highlight that the At-Will DPR doesn't go away, it is simply built upon.
Totally agree.  You need to know what your sustained potential is.  One game I'm playing a ranger and with twin strike, disruptive strikes, countestrike guards, rain of blows, etc. my attacks per round is pretty decently high (though, must say booooo to the 1-free-action-attack errata).  Attacks per round hover around 4ish initially and are bounded on the lower end by twin strike + conditionals.  The 4-round amount is significantly better.

The other (con-lock) is more sustained (dire radiance / hellish rebuke / white lotus / etc.) with the dailies setting up conditionals, defenses, guards, etc. but the same holds.

Now... Rangers often do very similar things by using Twin Strike as their central attack, and surrounding it with non-Standard attacks. The same can be true for Rogues. The point here is probably obvious-- I wanted to highlight that the At-Will DPR doesn't go away, it is simply built upon.

I agree with you.  My Warlock|Swordmage works very similarly using Hellish Rebuke as a base, although the interupts are more for control than DPR.

However, this doesn't hold for a lot of classes.  For example, monks have virtually no minor or off-turn attacks.
ShakaUVM
Joined Dec 1969
Isn't it be more productive to use dailies to prevent  combat from going south to begin with?

Depends. Sometimes, yeah, you can tell a combat will be spicy. But really a lot of combats can become deadly if your party misses with their encounter novas, so it's important to hold an ace up your sleeve for those times.