The Rules Of Hidden Club: Targeting things you can't see in D&D.

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The trick with setting up any ambush is that its only as good as the least stealthy party member (just like you don't have to outrun the dragon, you only have to outrun the dwarf or halfling).  It doesn't really matter if your thief rolls a 42 if the Paladin in plate armor rolls a 12.


I would run the setup of an ambush as a Skill Challenge.  The complexity level would vary based on what you're trying to surprise and where.   If its a single creature with no special detection abilities (ex: a lone merchant in a dark alleyway with no one else around) it would be complexity 1. If it's a caravan with trained guards (or an army) including darkvision and flying scouts on an open road in a barren wasteland, and your actual target is at the rear end of the caravan, it's complexity 5.
 
  Relevant skills would be:
1) Stealth (obviously). This would be the main skill
2) Nature, Dungeoneering or Streetwise, based on location of the encounter.  I would limit the number of these checks, or after the 1st one or two, it might become advantage granting only.
3) Perception and possibly Insight could give advantages - spotting better hiding locations, etc.
4) Bluff or Thievery are possibilities, especially to setup another distraction, or if the ambush relies on a character faking they are injured in the road, etc.  Or it could represent the party having a hidden signal to trigger the attack without alerting the enemy.
5) Acrobatics and Athletics could  play a part as well with a limited number of uses and represent moving something large into position to give cover (and not look obvious), or a character getting into a hidden position up in a tree, etc. 
6) Endurance may also come into play.  Sitting in ambush position may be easy for a character trained in stealth and in light armor.  Its more difficult for the paladin in plate or cleric in scale armor to sit still quietly for those 5 minutes you're waiting.
7) If the nature of the approaching targets is known, I would maybe grant an advantage from a monster knowledge check of the appropriate skill.

Challenge results:
On total success, I would give the full party a surprise round, and starting as hidden, or at least a very large bonus (say +20) on the opposed stealth check as the enemy approaches.

On failure, the enemy would recognize there is an ambush or something wrong as they approach the area and would be alert, but the party would still get stealth checks without a bonus (I don't think a penalty would be necessary).  If there's time, I may allow the party to recognize they totally screwed up their ambush attempt ahead of time, but they wouldn't be able to retry the challenge near the same location, and if they move further down the road, a reattempt may have penalties or be more difficult as the enemy would be alerted.

If the result is somewhere in between (challenge succeeded with some failures), grant a moderate bonus to stealth checks to the party.  Considering lines of sight based on the enemy and the party members, this might result in a surprise round or not, depending on how good the enemy's perception is.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />  Also consider that depending on terrain some characters may need to take positions that are not great for a surprise round in order to be hidden, such as being prone, up in a tree, in difficult terrain (heavy brush) etc, so some characters may choose not to act in the surprise round if they haven't been spotted.




Hey question: the "Blur" Wizard Utility (Level 10, PHB1) states : "and enemies five or more squares away from you cannot see you" i'm taking it for my swordmage through a theme

what is my condition for those "more than 5 square away monsters" relative to those mentioned in the first posts? is it concealment, hidden, or has this power been errataed in a way that makes it not matter?

edit: or actually, does it just interrupt line of sight? that might be it

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/8.jpg)

I can tell you how I am handling abmush/stealth rules now, as I discussed with the players involved in my campaign. It follows all the rules and works well IMO.

Players can hide all they want if there is no chance of enemy detection. No dice rolls. You want to hide, fine, you are now hidden. (This allows players to set up an ambush in an area and then only have to maintain normal cover or normal concealment, because they are just having to remain hidden from that point on.)

The first dice roll occurs when an enemy has its first chance at detecting any player. For example, a caravan first comes down the road. I consider this the start of the encounter, although combat has not yet started so a noncombat enounter. The caravan is most likely over 10 squares away, so the caravan folks have a -2 to their perception at this point. The players roll their stealth check. If any of the players fail, they obviously are detected and probably combat starts with no surprise round. If they instead all succeed at their stealth checks, any of them can reroll their stealth check if they choose to, following the rule of rolling another stealth check after a "move 0" action. They have to keep their new roll and could possibly be detected if they roll low and as the caravan draws nearer. And I calculate how much closer the caravan is each "round" although official rounds have not really started yet since we are not in combat. This limits how many rerolls they are going to get before the risk becomes too great. They are probably only going to get 1-2 lower risk rerolls before the caravan no longer has the -2 perception check due to being over 10 squares away.

Does this sound reasonable? Trying to incorporate the information you all are providing for a final ruling for my players. I personally don't like the skill challenge concept for something that really should just be covered under the stealth skill.
Hey question: the "Blur" Wizard Utility (Level 10, PHB1) states : "and enemies five or more squares away from you cannot see you" i'm taking it for my swordmage through a theme

what is my condition for those "more than 5 square away monsters" relative to those mentioned in the first posts? is it concealment, hidden, or has this power been errataed in a way that makes it not matter?

edit: or actually, does it just interrupt line of sight? that might be it


Cannot see you means that you have total concealment from them.  No more, no less.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Hey question: the "Blur" Wizard Utility (Level 10, PHB1) states : "and enemies five or more squares away from you cannot see you" i'm taking it for my swordmage through a theme

what is my condition for those "more than 5 square away monsters" relative to those mentioned in the first posts? is it concealment, hidden, or has this power been errataed in a way that makes it not matter?

edit: or actually, does it just interrupt line of sight? that might be it

Blur was updated so that you are now Invisible to any enemy 5 or more squares away from you.

Invisible = "cannot see you", but now they're using the actual in game term for it. So you have total concealment but are not hidden unless you make a stealth check.
understood, still a lovely penalty to their ability to hit from my 10 squares away :p

thanks guys!

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/8.jpg)

I can tell you how I am handling abmush/stealth rules now, as I discussed with the players involved in my campaign. It follows all the rules and works well IMO.

......

Does this sound reasonable? Trying to incorporate the information you all are providing for a final ruling for my players. I personally don't like the skill challenge concept for something that really should just be covered under the stealth skill.



That seems reasonable to me.  The skill challenge idea I would only apply to certain scenarios, otherwise the party would start doing it as often as possible to try to get extra XP, and as pointed it it could bog the game down (a non-munchkin party would probably take that into account).  An alternative would be to reward less or 0 XP for that type of challenge because its not a forced challenge.
  The main reason I suggest the skill challenge idea is that it allows the stealth trained members of the party to help hide the non-stealthy members of the party, thereby increasing the chances of a successful ambush, well still having the chance of a screw up, such as the Paladin being positioned such that the sun reflects directly off his shield and onto the approaching enemies, making their presence clear.
Question about when you can make a stealth check: 

1) If I move using a minor action, such as kobold being able to shift as a minor action, does that count as allowing me to be able to roll a stealth check at the end of that action?

2) Is using a move action to "move 0" allowed? Or does I actually have to move somewhere for it to count? I am already in a square that has superior cover and/or total concealment.    
1: Yes.  Though, kobolds as of the Dungeon Survival Handbook no longer have at-will shift as a minor action.

2: Yes.  As is standing up.

You roll stealth at the end of a move action or any action in which you move.  It does just what it says - use a move action for anything (Knight's Move, stand up, etc), you can roll Stealth if you meet the conditions.  Use an action in which you move (Charge, Tumbling Strike, an immediate action, etc etc), you can roll stealth if you meet the conditions.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
1: Yes.  Though, kobolds as of the Dungeon Survival Handbook no longer have at-will shift as a minor action.

2: Yes.  As is standing up.



Ah cool thanks I totally missed that! Shifty maneuver is now an encounter power thanks!!!! 
Firstly, this thread is awesome. You guys rock!
(I did read it all ^^)

Just a few questions..

1. Is this statement fair and true:
Rolling to hide at the end of an action represents using the movement of the action to hide, and the stealth part only taking effect at the end of the action.

___
2. Most here probably know about the whole "Prone > Teleport 1sq above where you want to move to > Land standing" thing. What if we apply this to hiding?

Say an invisible creature uses a move action to teleport into the air, and rolls to hide at the end of the teleport.
Would they become hidden at the conclusion of the action, and then fall after the action is complete? Or would they fall first, and become hidden on the ground?
(They should probably have to finish teleporting to be able to fall, which would be when the action is complete? You could also argue things like inertia if you really wanted to)

Either way, you could get around the order of events by teleporting to a climbable surface or flying, etc, the point is that they lost you when you were in the air, but you were moved to the ground via gravity.

Of course, this would only help if you could make your opponent think you were still up in the air (the climbing and flying stuff helps here), but is this viable (rules-wise, not cheese-wise)?

I do realise that just flying and hiding (then falling) would equate to more or less the same thing, but the teleport-hiding thing is for order-of-events as well.

___
3. To the guys in the early stages of the thread, working on the language proofs for the rule wording, did you come to any conclusions?


Thanks all! (especially LoW)
1: Yes, you roll at the end of the action.  You have to move WHILST ALREADY hidden in order for things to have to guess where you are (or, at least, in order for things to have a chance of failing to guess where you are correctly).

2: Expect table variation.  RAW, I think you'd fall after the action i.e. after making the stealth check) so if, say, monsters didn't know you could fly, you might be able to convince them you fell - but you've have to have total concealment whilst in the air...

3: wouldn't know.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Can I make a stealth check while grabbing someone? For example, I am in totally dark room with total concealment. I use a standard action to grab someone and succeed. I then use a move action (either move zero or maybe shift to another adjacent square) and then roll a stealth check. Am I now stealthed from those who have lower passive perceptions? Including the person I am grabbing?

RAW, it seems that I am indeed now hidden from everyone including the person I am grabbing.

And then, next turn, does sustaining a grab cause me to break stealth? It is a sustain minor, not an attack, so it would appear that this does not break the Rules of Hidden Club and I therefore remain hidden.
Can I make a stealth check while grabbing someone? For example, I am in totally dark room with total concealment. I use a standard action to grab someone and succeed. I then use a move action (either move zero or maybe shift to another adjacent square) and then roll a stealth check. Am I now stealthed from those who have lower passive perceptions? Including the person I am grabbing?

RAW, it seems that I am indeed now hidden from everyone including the person I am grabbing.

And then, next turn, does sustaining a grab cause me to break stealth? It is a sustain minor, not an attack, so it would appear that this does not break the Rules of Hidden Club and I therefore remain hidden.



Aside from your GM ruling that "having someone grabbed" counts as revealing yourself?  Yes.  And that looks correct.  But guessing what square you're in is relatively easy when you have someone Grabbed, most of the time.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Not really... I mean it has to be an adjacent square (unless you have natural reach). But that leaves 8 options normally, more if you can fly.
Regarding remaining hidden, I know that if you make an attack, you are no longer hidden. "Don’t Attack: If the creature makes an attack, it doesn’t remain hidden." What about using a Sustain Minor effect (once already hidden) that causes automatic damage but does not use the game term "attack" in the description? Does that count as an attack?

The grab was made with a garrote attack, which on a hit did damage, but then also allowed as a Sustain Minor to cause damage next round as well. Does using the Sustain Minor the next round count as an attack that would break stealth?

The attack ability basically read like this, with the sustain part indented:

Attack: DEX vs reflex

Hit: 10 damage and target is grabbed.

      Sustain Standard: Target remains grabbed and takes 10 damage.


  
A Sustain line would make you not remain hidden if it let you make an attack roll or use an attack power with a target line which is what constitue making an attack. 

The exemple provided above contain none of these being static damage and so you'd stay hidden.
A Sustain line would make you not remain hidden if it let you make an attack roll or use an attack power with a target line which is what constitue making an attack. 

The exemple provided above contain none of these being static damage and so you'd stay hidden.



Again assuming that your GM rules that garrotting someone is silent and unobstrusive.  However, if he agrees with that, you aren't breaking any of the other rules.

This is much like the guy a few pages back that argued that flashes of lightning and peals of thunder were unobtrusive and silent and didn't involve making any noise or drawing any attention to himself:  "Expect table variation", although the garroting at least has a chance of being ruled legal.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.


 
If I am Hidden, then use an attack power like Deft Strike that allows me to move and then attack do I get combat advantage versus the target due to me being hidden while attacking like invisibility does?

Yes  since you retains the benefits of being hidden, such as combat advantage, until the action that cause you to not remain hidden is resolved. 


Not Remaining Hidden: If the creature takes an action that causes it not to remain hidden, the creature retains the benefits of being hidden, such as combat advantage, until the action is resolved. The creature can’t become hidden again as part of that same action.

A few issues came up on my last dnd session regarding stealth. I'm using a rogue / warlock combination for the shadow walk feature that grants concealment when moving more then 3 squares, and using cunning sneak that allows me to become hidden with only concealment, not total concealment. Now the question is, since I rolled stealth, I am actually hidden and there for I have invisibility and total concealment for -5 to hit me?

Another thing is regarding monsters, they can try to spot me with a minor action perception roll. So lets say one of them manages to beat me with a good perception roll against my stealth roll, the rules say when searching for a hidden creature, that creature looses hidden when found. Does that mean I still have invisibility and total concealment?

The flowchart is like this, concealment from shadow walk into hidden, a creature spots me, what happens when he attacks me, does he have a -5 penalty or a -2 penalty since I didn't actually have total concealment when I became hidden, only partial from shadow walk.
A few issues came up on my last dnd session regarding stealth. I'm using a rogue / warlock combination for the shadow walk feature that grants concealment when moving more then 3 squares, and using cunning sneak that allows me to become hidden with only concealment, not total concealment. Now the question is, since I rolled stealth, I am actually hidden and there for I have invisibility and total concealment for -5 to hit me?


Yes.

Another thing is regarding monsters, they can try to spot me with a minor action perception roll. So lets say one of them manages to beat me with a good perception roll against my stealth roll, the rules say when searching for a hidden creature, that creature looses hidden when found. Does that mean I still have invisibility and total concealment?


Not against that enemy.  You'll still have concealment from Shadow Walk, and creatures that haven't found you will still treat you as invisible/totally concealed.

The flowchart is like this, concealment from shadow walk into hidden, a creature spots me, what happens when he attacks me, does he have a -5 penalty or a -2 penalty since I didn't actually have total concealment when I became hidden, only partial from shadow walk.


-2
A few issues came up on my last dnd session regarding stealth. I'm using a rogue / warlock combination for the shadow walk feature that grants concealment when moving more then 3 squares, and using cunning sneak that allows me to become hidden with only concealment, not total concealment.



NB, that combination is quite hard to get always-on and legally.  How are you doing it?

(I mean, it's POSSIBLE.  But very hard and very expensive.)

 Now the question is, since I rolled stealth, I am actually hidden and there for I have invisibility and total concealment for -5 to hit me?



That's correct.  Shadow Walk gives you Concealment.  Cunning Sneak lets you become Hidden with just Concealment.  Hidden causes Total Concealment - so you're upgrading Concealment to Total Concealment.

Another thing is regarding monsters, they can try to spot me with a minor action perception roll. So lets say one of them manages to beat me with a good perception roll against my stealth roll, the rules say when searching for a hidden creature, that creature looses hidden when found. Does that mean I still have invisibility and total concealment?



No, because those came from Hidden.  That monster found you - you are not Hidden from that monster, so you do not have Total Concealment Because Hidden from that monster.

The flowchart is like this, concealment from shadow walk into hidden, a creature spots me, what happens when he attacks me, does he have a -5 penalty or a -2 penalty since I didn't actually have total concealment when I became hidden, only partial from shadow walk.



You were invisible ONLY because you were Hidden.  When you stopped being Hidden, you also stopped being invisible to that monster.  So the only penalty he's got is the -2 from Concealment.

(However, don't worry about this too much.  Rolling perception to find a Hidden creature is a sucker's game, generally only useful as a Hail Mary "well, I had nothing else to do with that minor action" thing, and will very rarely work.  Worry more about monsters walking into you for the guaranteed Hidden-breakage, or just switching to Burst and Blast attacks that ignore *all* concealment entirely.)
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
A few issues came up on my last dnd session regarding stealth. I'm using a rogue / warlock combination for the shadow walk feature that grants concealment when moving more then 3 squares, and using cunning sneak that allows me to become hidden with only concealment, not total concealment.



NB, that combination is quite hard to get always-on and legally.  How are you doing it?

(I mean, it's POSSIBLE.  But very hard and very expensive.)



Creating a hybrid rogue / warlock and training the shadow innitiate and cursed shadow feats.

Thanks for the quick answers, cleared all the questions I had.



NB, that combination is quite hard to get always-on and legally.  How are you doing it?

(I mean, it's POSSIBLE.  But very hard and very expensive.)



Creating a hybrid rogue / warlock and training the shadow innitiate and cursed shadow feats.

Thanks for the quick answers, cleared all the questions I had.



And Hybrid Talent:  Cunning Sneak.  Huh.  Neat, I hadn't seen that combo before.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
I seem to be having problems with the wording of this class feature and the Hidden Club Rules. 

Im sure it has been discussed somewhere in the forums but I've been lurking for about a hour for the topic with no sucess. 

Anyway you could shine some clarity on the topic?

Cunning Sneak

If you end your movement at least 3 squares away from your starting position, you can make a Stealth check to become hidden if you have any concealment or any cover, except for cover provided by intervening allies.

"Concealment":
  Partial LOS failure, usually provided by a class feature, terrain feature, or magic item.  You are NOT invisible and you CAN be seen.  Concealment is enough to MAINTAIN Hidden, but not enough to BECOME hidden.
I seem to be having problems with the wording of this class feature and the Hidden Club Rules. 

Im sure it has been discussed somewhere in the forums but I've been lurking for about a hour for the topic with no sucess. 

Anyway you could shine some clarity on the topic?

Cunning Sneak

If you end your movement at least 3 squares away from your starting position, you can make a Stealth check to become hidden if you have any concealment or any cover, except for cover provided by intervening allies.

"Concealment":
  Partial LOS failure, usually provided by a class feature, terrain feature, or magic item.  You are NOT invisible and you CAN be seen.  Concealment is enough to MAINTAIN Hidden, but not enough to BECOME hidden.



Concealment is a general rule.  Cunning Sneak is a specific that overrides it.

You can't become Hidden with just Concealment, according to the general rules that apply to everyone. 

Cunning Sneak Rogues, however, have a class feature that says Cunning Sneak Rogues *can* become Hidden using only Concealment, as long as they move at least 3 squares.

Cunning Sneaks, having a specific rule that says *for them* the rules are different, follow their own different rule.  They don't need to follow the general rule any more.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Hidden persist until broken or discovered, and taking damage does not break Hidden no.

In my recent game, when facing invisible monsters, my players insisted (and I think rightfully so) that since they had set the monster on fire (ongoing fire damage, save ends) they would be able to see the outline of the monster, even if it was technically invisible, because of the flames covering it.  

Doesn't this make sense?  Kinda like throwing powder on it, or paint, but much more painful.... 
The thing is that they're supposed to know where the invisible monster is if its not hidden. If it was Hidden, then no, even if its on fire you wouldn't know where it is until it stop being Hidden as per Stealth rules.
Hidden persist until broken or discovered, and taking damage does not break Hidden no.

In my recent game, when facing invisible monsters, my players insisted (and I think rightfully so) that since they had set the monster on fire (ongoing fire damage, save ends) they would be able to see the outline of the monster, even if it was technically invisible, because of the flames covering it.  

Doesn't this make sense?  Kinda like throwing powder on it, or paint, but much more painful.... 



Rules:  No, that doesn't reveal it.

Actual play:  I personally used my Wizard's "light" cantrip on a monster that was dancing in and out of Hidden, before I knew the rules, because I figured "light it up, it can't hide" and the GM went with that as a good idea.

So:  While being on fire technically doesn't break Hidden, your GM might decide that "more cinematic" beats "more rules".  Or he might not.  It's a judgement call.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
The thing is that they're supposed to know where the invisible monster is if its not hidden. If it was Hidden, then no, even if its on fire you wouldn't know where it is until it stop being Hidden as per Stealth rules.



I would think that "being on fire" would break the "don't be noticed" rule of the Hidden Club....

However, there are specific powers that do this as part of the power, so ... rules say no since there's at least one power that say Yes. 
I would think that "being on fire" would break the "don't be noticed" rule of the Hidden Club....

What rule of Hidden Club is ''don't be noticed''? 


[sblock]


The Rules Of Hidden Club:  Losing Hidden


The First Rule Of Hidden Club:


Stay out of sight.  If, at ANY TIME, you lack at least Cover or Concealment from an enemy, you lose Hidden against that enemy.  It doesn't matter if this is your turn or his, or if it's in the middle of a move, or because a Wall got broken down.  No Cover and No Concealment = EXPELLED FROM HIDDEN CLUB.  Oh, and this means REAL cover - the kind of Cover you get against Ranged attacks by hiding behind an ally doesn't count.



The Second Rule Of Hidden Club:


 Keep quiet.  Anything louder than a whisper, or any environmental interaction above the same kind of level, expels you from Hidden Club.


The Third Rule Of Hidden Club: 


Keep Still.  If you don't move more than 2 squares at a time, you have no chance of losing Hidden.  If you move more than 2, you have to roll Stealth with a penalty in order to stay a member of Hidden Club - and every time you do, your new number replaces your old number, for better or worse.




The Fourth Rule Of Hidden Club: 


Don't Attack.  If you attack, you are immediately Expelled From Hidden Club, period.



The Fifth Rule Of Hidden Club:


 Don't let the enemy FIND you.  An enemy can spend a Minor Action to roll Perception, and if he beats your Stealth (you DID write it down, right?), you lose Hidden.  As well, any enemy who attempts to move into your space automatically finds you, period.  


The Unspeakable Final Rule Of Hidden Club:


When you do something to lose Hidden, you keep the benefits of being Hidden until the end of that action.   So moving out into the open costs you Hidden, but you keep Hidden until the end of the *entire action* - so if your action is Deft Strike, which lets you move *and* attack as part of the same action, you're Hidden during the attack part even though the Move part of it lost you Hidden.  Similarly, if you have a power that lets you attack then move, attacking costs you Hidden but you *are* still Hidden during the move, until the full action is over.

 
I thought there was a rule about not drawing attention to yourself?
I would think that "being on fire" would break the "don't be noticed" rule of the Hidden Club....

What rule of Hidden Club is ''don't be noticed''?



The second.  For the same reasons that you can't spraypaint your name in green on the walls or shine a bright light in people's eyes while remaining Hidden:  Because that's stupid and your DM will quite rightfully punish you for it.

As I said, not RAW.  Just likely to incur GM attention, in a perfectly sensible way.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Hello all,

Cunning Sneak establishes that "if you end a move action at least 3 squares away from your starting position...". My doubt is: it has to be a move action, or can be any action that involves moving, as per the new Stealth rules in Rules Compendium? Specifically I am looking at powers like Lurker's Assault, that could allow a rogue with high Intelligence to shift three or more squares away from his starting position. Will it be entitled to a stealth check then, needing only cover or concealment?

Also, I understand that when a stealth check is allowed, you have to follow the rules for stealth, and you need superior cover or total concealment (or cover or concealment for cunning sneakers), you just not simply vanish in the air, right?

Thanks all.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

Sorry, didn't check errata before posting my previous message, it's there crystal clear

Please just confirm me my second question, thank you.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

Hello all,

Cunning Sneak establishes that "if you end a move action at least 3 squares away from your starting position...". My doubt is: it has to be a move action, or can be any action that involves moving, as per the new Stealth rules in Rules Compendium? Specifically I am looking at powers like Lurker's Assault, that could allow a rogue with high Intelligence to shift three or more squares away from his starting position. Will it be entitled to a stealth check then, needing only cover or concealment?



Cunning Sneak has been updated.  It now says "If you end your movement at least 3 squares away from your starting position".  So, yeah, all movement, not just move actions.

Also, I understand that when a stealth check is allowed, you have to follow the rules for stealth, and you need superior cover or total concealment (or cover or concealment for cunning sneakers), you just not simply vanish in the air, right?



That's right.  If the power doesn't SAY it removes a restriction, it doesn't.


Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Perfect, thank you very much!

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

If a rider commands it's mount to move, can the rider make a stealth check at the end of the mounts move (assuming all other prereqs of stealth are covered)?

Want anime-style Power cards? Then try the Touhou Power Cards!

No because its the mount that take a move action, not the rider. 
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