The Rules Of Hidden Club: Targeting things you can't see in D&D.

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#3:  Gives a +5 to the attack roll.

It technically does a fourth,
#4:  Sucks.  It's a terrible power.

+5 to attack seems like a perfectly valid use of a daily item power to me.  In fact, it's probably one of the few daily powers that actually are worth using (at least as a secondary weapon).

Knowing where hidden people are is just a side benifit.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

It sounds pretty cool but it only works on a single Ranged Basic Attack. A flat +5 would be nice, indeed.
Epic Dungeon Master

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Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.

#3:  Gives a +5 to the attack roll.

It technically does a fourth,
#4:  Sucks.  It's a terrible power.

+5 to attack seems like a perfectly valid use of a daily item power to me.  In fact, it's probably one of the few daily powers that actually are worth using (at least as a secondary weapon).

Knowing where hidden people are is just a side benifit.



It's only +5.

The Ranger in question will get more damage at the same accuracy with Twin Strike.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Folks, there are degrees of not knowing where someone is.

With Total Concealment (including Invisible) you can't actually see the target, so you don't know where he is *in the square*. But you can hear him (or something) well enough to know what square he is in.

With Hidden, you don't even know what square he is in.
"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
Can you make a stealth check after removing yourself from play?

And thus just return with concealment?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Can you make a stealth check after removing yourself from play?

And thus just return with concealment?



Leaving play means leaving a square without entering another (so it's not a Move) and entering play means entering a square without leaving another (so it's not a Move).

In fact...

While out of play, you can't roll Stealth.

Re-entering play does not cost an action.

Therefore, you are neither moving nor ending a move action when you re-enter play, so you can't roll Stealth to become Hidden.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
While out of play, you can't roll Stealth.

Are you sure about that?
You can't take actions, but i didn't think rolling stealth was an "action".

However, i can agree with it not being a movement.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I need help with this one. Does "Free the Storm Within" break hidden when it activates? 


Free the Storm Within

Swordmage 15


Daily        Arcane, Lightning, Stance, Thunder
Minor Action      Personal


Effect: An enemy that starts its turn adjacent to you and moves away takes 2d8 lightning and thunder damage.


I need help with this one. Does "Free the Storm Within" break hidden when it activates? 


Free the Storm Within

Swordmage 15


Daily        Arcane, Lightning, Stance, Thunder
Minor Action      Personal


Effect: An enemy that starts its turn adjacent to you and moves away takes 2d8 lightning and thunder damage.



Unclear.

Given that you're doing massive amouns of lightning and thunder damage, it seems obvious to me that you're violating the rule that you can't make noise above a whisper or draw attention to yourself - but the rules don't strictly *say* that lightning is bright or thunder is loud, so you might get a pass on that.

Even if your GM gives you a pass on that, though, what's going to happen is that the enemy won't know your location, and then he'll get zapped, and because he has been affected by a power he will know, outright, all the power's details - including that he must have been zapped for moving away from you.  Which is very likely to give him a VERY good idea where you are.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
I need help with this one. Does "Free the Storm Within" break hidden when it activates? 


Free the Storm Within

Swordmage 15


Daily        Arcane, Lightning, Stance, Thunder
Minor Action      Personal


Effect: An enemy that starts its turn adjacent to you and moves away takes 2d8 lightning and thunder damage.



Unclear.

Given that you're doing massive amouns of lightning and thunder damage, it seems obvious to me that you're violating the rule that you can't make noise above a whisper or draw attention to yourself - but the rules don't strictly *say* that lightning is bright or thunder is loud, so you might get a pass on that.

Even if your GM gives you a pass on that, though, what's going to happen is that the enemy won't know your location, and then he'll get zapped, and because he has been affected by a power he will know, outright, all the power's details - including that he must have been zapped for moving away from you.  Which is very likely to give him a VERY good idea where you are.



Combine this with the Rogue feat that let's you shift a square as an opp. action instead of taking an opportunity attack when an enemy provokes and you can remain undetected, as long as the enemy *moves* away from you and doesn't shift away.  Shifting away would still take the lightning damage though, since this isn't an opportunity action of any kind.  It's just ... he moves away, he takes damage. 

EDIT:  What about the Fight level 5 daily, Rain of Steel?  If an enemy starts adjacent to you, you can deal 1[w] damage to that enemy as long as you can take opp. attacks.  Would that break stealth?  You aren't attacking, just dealing weapon damage.
EDIT:  What about the Fight level 5 daily, Rain of Steel?  If an enemy starts adjacent to you, you can deal 1[w] damage to that enemy as long as you can take opp. attacks.  Would that break stealth?  You aren't attacking, just dealing weapon damage.



By the rules:  Not clear.  It's not an attack, but it's most certainly "damaging an enemy by swinging your weapon at them" - which means you're into the Second Rule Of Hidden Club, which is always GM-discretion-dependent.

If your GM agrees with you that hitting someone with a hammer is not any louder than a whisper, and that your use of this Aura Of Hammer-Smiting does not count as drawing attention to yourself, then Rain Of Steel does not break Hidden.

(If your GM agrees to that, have him give me a call.  I have a bridge to sell and he seems like a perfect buyer.)
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
the difference between these two powers is the opportunity attack clause. that insinuates you are making an attack, even though you don't use your opp action to do so.

when it comes to your quote lord of weasels

"Even if your GM gives you a pass on that, though, what's going to happen is that the enemy won't know your location, and then he'll get zapped, and because he has been affected by a power he will know, outright, all the power's details - including that he must have been zapped for moving away from you.  Which is very likely to give him a VERY good idea where you are."  

where do you get this from? the power just says it truggers off moving away and the creature gets zapped. it says nothing about any of the rules of hidden club being broken. i mean there are plenty of powers that cause damage triggered off moving but this one doesn't take any action from the damage dealer to maintain other than be in a stance. stance's don't break hidden do they?
This is a bit offtopic, but I find that power interesting in that it should be 2d8 per square moved...

Also, the very good idea where you are thing, the monster has the following pieces of information:



  • Being zapped means it started its turn adjacent to the swordmage

  • Being zapped means it moved away from the swordmage

  • It knows which direction it moved, and therefore which direction is 'away'


Not too hard to piece together where the swordmage is.  At most three squares.

D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
This is a bit offtopic, but I find that power interesting in that it should be 2d8 per square moved...



I dont' think it should.  I think it should be "once".  But y'know.

Also, the very good idea where you are thing, the monster has the following pieces of information:



  • Being zapped means it started its turn adjacent to the swordmage

  • Being zapped means it moved away from the swordmage

  • It knows which direction it moved, and therefore which direction is 'away'


Not too hard to piece together where the swordmage is.  At most three squares.




A larger monster has more squares to guess, especially when moving diagonally - but yes.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
This is a bit offtopic, but I find that power interesting in that it should be 2d8 per square moved...

Also, the very good idea where you are thing, the monster has the following pieces of information:



  • Being zapped means it started its turn adjacent to the swordmage

  • Being zapped means it moved away from the swordmage

  • It knows which direction it moved, and therefore which direction is 'away'


Not too hard to piece together where the swordmage is.  At most three squares.





Those first two points are dependent on the monster knowing the paramaters of the power not on actual monster knowledge which i don't think is the case here. The third point is obvious monster knowledge but I don't think it applies to finding where the hidden character is or that it is going "away " from anything. I contend that the monster knowledge begins and ends with "monster moved, monster gets zapped". Maybe figuring out directionality on this thunder and lightning damage as the monster moves away the monster looks back and sees nothing because no hidden rules are broken. End result is the character remains hidden as monster moves away, ending it's movement away from character.   
I contend that the monster knowledge begins and ends with "monster moved, monster gets zapped".  



No, that's wrong.  A creature affected by a power knows all the details of the power.

because no hidden rules are broken.   



Beyond the one about keeping quiet.  The rule saying you can't make an attack has not been broken, true, but that it NOT the same as saying that you remain Hidden.  There are many rules.

End result is the character remains hidden as monster moves away, ending it's movement away from character.



If your DM rules that lightning is not bright and thunder is not loud, then yes, you will remain Hidden.  The monster will still know that he was zapped for starting adjacent to you and for moving to a non-adjacent square, though, because that's how your power works and that's how the rules for being affected by a power work. 
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
I contend that the monster knowledge begins and ends with "monster moved, monster gets zapped".  



No, that's wrong.  A creature affected by a power knows all the details of the power.




I found this in the rules, must have skimmed over it at the bottom of page 57 PHB. Thankyou for the help on this.

but earlier



Dec 31, 2011 -- 1:18PM, Mand12 wrote:

Also, the very good idea where you are thing, the monster has the following pieces of information:



  • Being zapped means it started its turn adjacent to the swordmage

  • Being zapped means it moved away from the swordmage

  • It knows which direction it moved, and therefore which direction is 'away'




Not too hard to piece together where the swordmage is.  At most three squares.






 

A larger monster has more squares to guess, especially when moving diagonally - but yes.




Now going to this post it means the Swordmage is still hidden but the target monster knows in which 3+ squares based on his size the character is?


Can a monster alter it's move during that move to go back and close burst 1 from the square it was in? Can it stop it's move short and charge one of the 3+ squares?


Also important here is when the first monster gets zapped does this break Hidden when it comes to other monsters?  I don't see how it would break Hidden for them or contribute to knowlege of where the character is because they were not affected by the power. This power being a stance and the wording means that the conditions are not known to the target before it is affected by the power. in other words, until the monster takes damage, it doesn't know it has a penalty if it moves away.



but earlier
[snip]

Now going to this post it means the Swordmage is still hidden but the target monster knows in which 3+ squares based on his size the character is?



ASSUMING that your DM rules that lightning is not bright, and thunder is not loud, and thus that you haven't broken the second rule of remaining Hidden?  Then you would remain Hidden.


This is a bad assumption, but it could happen.



Can a monster alter it's move during that move to go back and close burst 1 from the square it was in? Can it stop it's move short and charge one of the 3+ squares?


Of course.  You make movement one step at a time.



Also important here is when the first monster gets zapped does this break Hidden when it comes to other monsters?


If lightning is bright or thunder is loud, then yes, you would lose Hidden from everyone.


If lightning is not bright and thunder is quieter than a whisper, then no, you would not lose Hidden from anyone, not the person you zapped, not his friends.



I don't see how it would break Hidden for them or contribute to knowlege of where the character is because they were not affected by the power.


Beyond that, unless the affected monster *can't* communicate, he can trivially share this information and by default is assumed to be doing so?



This power being a stance and the wording means that the conditions are not known to the target before it is affected by the power. in other words, until the monster takes damage, it doesn't know it has a penalty if it moves away.


That's correct, but once you zap one guy with it, he can tell his friends (and is assumed to share that information)
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.


but earlier
[snip]

Now going to this post it means the Swordmage is still hidden but the target monster knows in which 3+ squares based on his size the character is?



ASSUMING that your DM rules that lightning is not bright, and thunder is not loud, and thus that you haven't broken the second rule of remaining Hidden?  Then you would remain Hidden.


This is a bad assumption, but it could happen.


[snip, thanks]



Also important here is when the first monster gets zapped does this break Hidden when it comes to other monsters?


If lightning is bright or thunder is loud, then yes, you would lose Hidden from everyone.


If lightning is not bright and thunder is quieter than a whisper, then no, you would not lose Hidden from anyone, not the person you zapped, not his friends.


[snip i get it. Bad guy moves and gets zapped and yells to his cohorts"there is an invisable jerk over there" gesturing behind himself to a general area]




I still think the player is disassociated enough from the effect of the power to assume there is no sith lightning or similar effect when it triggers. I envision the monster steps away and there is then a thunder crash and lightning envelops him. this could be argued that it occurs in the square  the target moves into and nothing in the effect line indicates this is linked visually or audibly to the square you are in to other enemies.


all the above would be solved if Hidden, breaks stances. Which I would think you would have to break a stance to become Hidden but I can't find anything on that.  any thoughts??


edit: in fact just about nothing breaks a stance 

Duration: A stance lasts until the character assumes another stance or until the character falls unconscious or dies. A stance also ends at the end of the encounter, unless the stance can be assumed at will.

I still think the player is disassociated enough from the effect of the power to assume there is no sith lightning or similar effect when it triggers.



When someone moves away from you, because of something you are currently doing, you zap them with lightning and a clap of thunder ensues.

It's your damage.
You are doing it.
Your damage bonuses apply.

You are producing this damage.

I envision the monster steps away and there is then a thunder crash and lightning envelops him.



That sounds louder than a whisper to me.  You've broken the second rule ("Keep quiet") and are no longer Hidden.

this could be argued that it occurs in the square  the target moves into and nothing in the effect line indicates this is linked visually or audibly to the square you are in to other enemies.



... beyond that it happens because you're doing it, and the creatures knows, for an absolute fact, that you did it AND that it happened because he started adjacent to you and moved away from you? 
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
all the above would be solved if Hidden, breaks stances. Which I would think you would have to break a stance to become Hidden but I can't find anything on that.  any thoughts??


edit: in fact just about nothing breaks a stance 

Duration: A stance lasts until the character assumes another stance or until the character falls unconscious or dies. A stance also ends at the end of the encounter, unless the stance can be assumed at will.



Yup.  And the "unconscious" part is new, and it's a bad change that should not have been made.

Virtually nothing breaks a Stance, that's the point - they're intended to be an encounter-long effect that you can only have one of.

And some of them, like Boundless Endurance, it makes perfect sense to allow while Hidden.  Others, like Free The Storm Within or Rain Of Steel, break the rules of remaining Hidden every time they trigger.  Still others simply do *nothing* until you do something else, like all the Knight and Slayer stances.

But yes, it would be nice if there was a rule about how Hidden works with Auras and Stances and other non-attack things.  Sometimes it's easy to make a ruling, sometimes it's harder, but a hard rule on a keyword means that some things that should work while Hidden (or that MUST work while Hidden to be effective) can't work at all, or that things that should definitely not work while Hidden will work.

Which means that it's generally up to your GM.

In general, though, loud flashy obvious damage-dealing powers are going to break rule #2.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
all the above would be solved if Hidden, breaks stances. Which I would think you would have to break a stance to become Hidden but I can't find anything on that.  any thoughts??


edit: in fact just about nothing breaks a stance 
[snip]



You are arguing RAI with regards to stances and Hidden vs. my questioning whether this is RAW or not on Free The Storm Within only. 2 different subjects here. I realize this because I agree 100% with the post above from a RAI point of view. I think stances that have internal effects shoud not affect Hidden and stances that have external effects should completely prevent Hidden from occuring. My questioning of FTSW is in the wording, which is exactly like the extra damage from a psion I DM for deals.


Fuse Form   Psion Attack 3


The energy of your mind scours your foe to hinder its movement, and it can bind multiple enemies together with unbreakable psychic bonds.


At-Will        Augmentable, Implement, Psionic
Standard Action      Ranged 10


Target: One creature


Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude


Hit: 1d8 + Intelligence modifier damage, and if the target moves more than 2 squares on its next turn, it takes 5 damage.



unquestionably when the extra damage is tacked on with this power it won't break Hidden on the psion when triggered. The only difference from this and FTSW is the monster knows it should not move with Fuse form and with FTSW it doesn't know because it finds out the details of the power after it is affected by it. and again lumping Free The Storm Within together with Rain of Steel is Apples and Oranges. 


Rain of Steel 


Effect: You assume the rain of steel stance. Until the stance ends, any enemy that starts its turn adjacent to you takes 1[W] damage, but only if you’re able to make opportunity attacks.


Free The Storm Within


Effect: An enemy that starts its turn adjacent to you and moves away takes 2d8 lightning and thunder damage.


the OA stipulation is the difference here and where the damage occurs is also a difference. In FTSW the damage occurs at location +2 squares because it triggers when the monster leaves a square in ROS the damage occurs a loc+1 or adjacent to character. The key thing here is damage is occuring based on an effect, not being dealt out by the character directly. The wording would be different if the character were directly dealing damage AKA Sith Lord Style. it would look more like this effects wording.


Bloody Blades


Effect: You can assume the stance of the bloody blades. Until the stance ends, as a free action you can deal damage equal to your primary ability modifier to any enemy that starts its turn adjacent to you


or this power


Force the Battle


Effect: [snip]In addition, once per round when an enemy starts its turn adjacent to you, you can use a fighter at-will attack power against it as a free action, but only if you are able to make opportunity attacks.


There are also a few other stances worded like ROS with "takes" and OA stip which RAW would mean it breaks Hidden of course. The wording on the effect line is not these though. FTSW is worded exactly like fuse form which won't break hidden because the character doesn't do anything other than stay in his stance.







You are arguing RAI with regards to stances and Hidden vs. my questioning whether this is RAW or not on Free The Storm Within only. 2 different subjects here.



No, you are wrong.  The statement that you must not make noise and not draw attention to yourself in order to remain Hidden is *RAW*, not RAI.  It's RAW where it is W that the DM must judge, but it's still RAW.

I also mentioned how there is no simple rule that applies to all stances or auras, because you brought it up.

The only difference from this and FTSW is the monster knows it should not move with Fuse form and with FTSW it doesn't know because it finds out the details of the power after it is affected by it.



Actually, the difference is that with fuse form an effect is applied to the monster when you hit it, and that effect lasts, whereas Free The Storm Within doesn't affect the monster at all until it moves.  The effect of FSTW is *created* when the monster moves.

and again lumping Free The Storm Within together with Rain of Steel is Apples and Oranges.



No, it really isn't.

the OA stipulation is the difference here



No, it isn't.  As you say, "all you have to do is be in your stance" - this is a Stance that requires you to be able to take OAs, but all that means is that it's a Stance that turns off sometimes.

and where the damage occurs is also a difference.



Different, yes, but irrelevant.  It doesn 't matter if you are 50 squares away from a monster when you make a noise louder than a whisper, you're still breaking Hidden because making a noise louder than a whisper breaks Hidden.

The key thing here is damage is occuring based on an effect, not being dealt out by the character directly.



You are wrong, the damage is being dealt by the character directly.  He doesn't have to take an action to do it, but that's not the same thing.

FTSW is worded exactly like fuse form which won't break hidden because the character doesn't do anything other than stay in his stance.



First:  Fuse Form is, again, a bad example because the aftereffect is created by the attack and will still occur if, say, your Psion is Dominated, teleported to another plane, and dead.  The extra damage is NOT from an effect that begins while your Psion is Hidden.

Rain Of Steel is a better comparison, because, like FTSW, it doesn't require any action, it doesn't require any maintenance, it's non-optional, it happens at nearly the same time, and, *as you say*, the character doesn't do anything other than stay in his stance.  The fact that Rain Of Steel has an extra condition that will disable the stance doesn't matter, since we haven't met that condition.

Second:  "doesn't do anything other than stay in his stance" - yes, which involves making a whole lot of light and noise.  Which breaks Hidden.

If you as DM want to rule that lightning isn't bright and thunder isn't loud, then FTSW doesn't break any of the OTHER rules, and you could remain Hidden while using it - for the same reason that someone could use Rain Of Steel while Hidden and remain Hidden.  You the DM have ruled that they *aren't* violating Rule #2.

However, Rule #2 is a DM's call, always.  That's not "RAI", that's "RAW says the DM arbitrates", and the quideline is "noise louder than a whisper".  Arguing that your character is not creating the lightning and thunder from FTSW or the autodamage from hammer-swings from RoS is dead wrong, by the rules - your character is doing these things, and this effect is happening because you are doing these things.  The only question, then, is whether or not you're breaking any of the rules to remain Hidden.  You're not making an attack, okay.  You're not in plain sight (or you wouldn't have been Hidden to begin with), okay.  You *may be* making a noise louder than a whisper - and, make the noise?  Lose Hidden, full stop.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
I am sorry if this has been asked, but there is like 120pages and I'm not sure the best way to search for what I'm looking for. I am very new to DND, and have read all the stealth rules and the first few pages of this thread. But one thing that is still a little unclear to me.

Q : If I am hidden from a creature, by hideing behind a wall. If I move out from behind the wall and finish next to the creature, then attack. Do I still have combat advantage from behing hidden? Or do I loose it after I moved as the creature can see me?
Unless you have some concealment or cover after the move; or you move and attack with the same action (such as the Rogue's Deft Strike), you lose Hidden at the end of any action when you don't have cover or concealment; and if you moved more than 2 squares, you would need total concealment or superior cover, as moving more than 2 squares necessitates a new check at a -5 penalty.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
So, after a move action from cover. If i am standing next to the creature without cover when i finish my move action, I loose cover and thus do not get combat advantage for my attack?
Correct.  You would need to move and attack with the same action (such as a charge, or Deft Strike) to retain the benefits of hidden for the attack in that example.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Sorry if this has been addressed, I tried searching but didn't have any luck.  Can you make a stealth check to hide at the end of your turn without a move action if you're invisible.

The reason I'm asking is because page 281 of the PHB states:

under the Targeting what you can't see box...

"Invisible Creature Uses Stealth:  At the end of a concealed creature's turn, it makes a stealth check opposed to your passive perception check." 
No a Stealth Check to Become Hidden is usually made at the end of a move action or at the end of any of the creature’s actions that involve the creature moving.

Action: The check is usually at the end of a move action, but it can be at the end of any of the creature’s actions that involve the creature moving.

Also PHB 281 was revised and now says:

PHB 281  Invisible Creatures and Stealth: If an invisible creature is hidden from you (“Stealth,” page 188), you can neither hear nor see it, and you have to guess what space it occupies. If an invisible creature is not hidden from you, you can hear it or sense some other sign of its presence and therefore know what space it occupies, although you still can’t see it.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

No a Stealth Check to Become Hidden is usually made at the end of a move action or at the end of any of the creature’s actions that involve the creature moving.

Action: The check is usually at the end of a move action, but it can be at the end of any of the creature’s actions that involve the creature moving.

Also PHB 281 was revised and now says:

PHB 281  Invisible Creatures and Stealth: If an invisible creature is hidden from you (“Stealth,” page 188), you can neither hear nor see it, and you have to guess what space it occupies. If an invisible creature is not hidden from you, you can hear it or sense some other sign of its presence and therefore know what space it occupies, although you still can’t see it.

Thanks!

That's what I thought but I wanted to make sure before I spent a feat on Assassin's Cloak.

Appreciate the quick concise reply.

-T 
Thanks for the write up, I generally play the dex based class lol.

My only question is, and this is a bit of a kicker and probably situational, BUT If I am oh say six inches tall, oh lets say a pixie, does hidden change at all? I mean really within a 5ft square is six inches really going to stand out? I could say, hide behind a chair leg or a tombstone, or even an allies foot since I can share squares with them. I MEAN IT can share squares with them *cough*
Thanks for the write up, I generally play the dex based class lol.

My only question is, and this is a bit of a kicker and probably situational, BUT If I am oh say six inches tall, oh lets say a pixie, does hidden change at all? I mean really within a 5ft square is six inches really going to stand out? I could say, hide behind a chair leg or a tombstone, or even an allies foot since I can share squares with them. I MEAN IT can share squares with them *cough*

No.

Your DM may rule more things (a chair leg) as cover for you, but that's DM depenant.  Makes sense though.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

yeah was just thinking lol cause well honestly pixies are awesome assassin ( executioner ). plus we're debating since they can fly if it removes the 'move 2 squares' rule
yeah was just thinking lol cause well honestly pixies are awesome assassin ( executioner ). plus we're debating since they can fly if it removes the 'move 2 squares' rule




Does it SAY it removes the 2-square rule?  (it doesn't)

Since it doesn't say it removes the rule, the rule still applies.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Who knows, i have foughten flying creatures with hidden before. and they moved more than two, so i'm guessing its up to the dm.
Who knows, i have foughten flying creatures with hidden before. and they moved more than two, so i'm guessing its up to the dm.



Your DM is free to make monsters that have an ability "that rule does not apply to this monster".  He's also perfectly free to houserule that that rule doesn't apply to any flying creatures.

But until and unless the DM changes the rule, the rule still exists, and your Pixie takes the same penalty that that other player's Minotaur does when you move more than 2 squares.

(If you'd like help understanding why - maybe a fast-moving pixie creates a louder buzz.  Maybe the glow of the pixie dust gets conspicuous if you sprint.  Who knows?  There's a ton of reasons why it might apply, but it DOES apply, because it says it does and nothing says it doesn't.)
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.


lol you sound almost angry. it doesn't matter to me if the rule applies or not, i've played lots of stealth chars. I wasn't arguing or any thing. But the hiding beind small things though, i'd like to know that since it could help me keep said hidden status


lol you sound almost angry. it doesn't matter to me if the rule applies or not, i've played lots of stealth chars. I wasn't arguing or any thing.



Didn't mean to sound angry, my bad. 
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
No worries, I just spend a lot of time trying to make sure things are correct since I'm trying to build a campagin myself. In the last campaign I played in I was a Hunter and I loved stealth, but every so often the rules were changed ever so slightly to fit the situation. Like a pitch black room on a 33 stealth, I should have been hidden even if I stood in middle of the room. I was until a creature passed me then I was seen as clear as day. Don't know how since the creature had normal sight. But later I was able to hide in a dim room and pressed against the wall. So i think its circumstantial.