The Rules Of Hidden Club: Targeting things you can't see in D&D.

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It's the same rules as for moving within the space of other things, like a Wall of Fire.  If you walk within all of the squares in the wall, you're only entering its space once.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I have a few questions, but before them, here is the situation:

  1. PC is an Avenger and has the feat Censure's Grip

  2. PC is Invisible (Until the end of his next turn)

  3. PC hits with Overwhelming Strike (Attack + Shift after the hit)

  4. PC Shifts after the hit and Rolls Stealth (Overwhelming Strike)

  5. PC pulls monster into his old square so the NPC is still adjacent to the PC, and Censure's Grip is triggered and now in effect.


Assuming the Stealth Check succeeds:

  1. Can the NPC shift?

  2. If the NPC can shift, is it aware of which squares it can shift into? (Thus, you're really not hidden?)

I'd probably rule that it knows where you are.  Your god is telling it it cannot flee you, it must know where you are in order to satisfy the condition.

The other alternative would be that it doesn't know where you are, simply that it could try to shift, and if it happened to try to get away from you, it would not be possible - essentially, that there is an invisible blocking wall around it in several directions, and it doesn't know which until it tries.

There is no strict RAW either way, I don't think.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
I have a few questions, but before them, here is the situation:

  1. PC is an Avenger and has the feat Censure's Grip

  2. PC is Invisible (Until the end of his next turn)

  3. PC hits with Overwhelming Strike (Attack + Shift after the hit)

  4. PC Shifts after the hit and Rolls Stealth (Overwhelming Strike)

  5. PC pulls monster into his old square so the NPC is still adjacent to the PC, and Censure's Grip is triggered and now in effect.


Assuming the Stealth Check succeeds:

  1. Can the NPC shift?

  2. If the NPC can shift, is it aware of which squares it can shift into? (Thus, you're really not hidden?)




Point #1:  It knows exactly what square you're in because you became Hidden at the END of the move.   So the question, as specified, is moot.
Point #2:  Even if you move again after becoming Hidden, creatures affected by a power know all of the effects of the power - so it knows which squares it cannot shift into.

Which gives it a pretty good idea where you are, yes, modified by HOW FAR your second move was, but that's what you get for using a power that changes based on your location while trying to conceal your location.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
I have a few questions, but before them, here is the situation:

  1. PC is an Avenger and has the feat Censure's Grip

  2. PC is Invisible (Until the end of his next turn)

  3. PC hits with Overwhelming Strike (Attack + Shift after the hit)

  4. PC Shifts after the hit and Rolls Stealth (Overwhelming Strike)

  5. PC pulls monster into his old square so the NPC is still adjacent to the PC, and Censure's Grip is triggered and now in effect.


Assuming the Stealth Check succeeds:

  1. Can the NPC shift?

  2. If the NPC can shift, is it aware of which squares it can shift into? (Thus, you're really not hidden?)




Point #1:  It knows exactly what square you're in because you became Hidden at the END of the move.   So the question, as specified, is moot.
Point #2:  Even if you move again after becoming Hidden, creatures affected by a power know all of the effects of the power - so it knows which squares it cannot shift into.

Which gives it a pretty good idea where you are, yes, modified by HOW FAR your second move was, but that's what you get for using a power that changes based on your location while trying to conceal your location.

1# The problem with LoW's interpretation is that the rules allow the player (or DM) to "know" where the character is, but in fact, the rules still say that the creature you are hidden from does not know where you are. Thus, the problem becomes a metagame one.
The easiest solution is that the creature also knows if you did not move after becoming hidden and you hid in a square which the creature could see at the time of rolling stealth.

2# is clear. IF the power affect the creature, it knows the effects of the power. Thus it knows where it cannot move.

A similar, but more difficult question is a creature tha hides and has antipathy gloves on. The gloves cause creatures to pay 1 extra movement point to move into a square adjacent to the wearer. But if the wearer is hidden, do you know before moving that it will cost more?
1# The problem with LoW's interpretation is that the rules allow the player (or DM) to "know" where the character is, but in fact, the rules still say that the creature you are hidden from does not know where you are. Thus, the problem becomes a metagame one.



Not exactly:  He knows *where he lost you*, and he knows *that when he lost you, you stopped moving*.  Both of those are universal rules, that apply to everyone.  He doesn't know you *didn't* move again, but he does know that most people *can't* move again.

And then in this case, he also knows which squares he can't Shift into.  Which is another clue.

Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Question about Secret Stride and Shadow Hunter Hide.

You don’t take the –5 penalty to Stealth checks for moving more than 2 squares.


You can move 4 squares during an action while you’re hidden (instead of 2 squares) without taking a –5 penalty to your Stealth check.



Normally if you move 3+ squares while hidden, you must reroll your Stealth check with a -5 penalty.

Would you concur that you still have to reroll the Stealth check for moving 3+ squares, even with either of the features above - all they do is remove the -5 penalty?

Would you concur that you still have to reroll the Stealth check for moving 3+ squares, even with either of the features above - all they do is remove the -5 penalty?



Exactly. You'd still make a Stealth Check to Remain Hidden because neother remove the need to make it, but you wouldn't take the penalty normally applying.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Does sustaining (paticularly witches bolt) break stealth?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

If the sustain results in an attack, yes.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Does sustaining (paticularly witches bolt) break stealth?



Depends on the power and your special effects budget.  The DM's well within his rights to say "Sustaining that zone requires handwaving and chanting, so you're breaking the 'keep your damn fool mouth shut' rule"

That being said:  I have no idea what power you're talking about.  Link me?
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Being used to mellored's shenanigans I went over and found the CharOp thread that generated his question.  The power is from the new build in HotFeywild, and posted in full over there.

Yes, the sustain effect from Witch Bolt is an attack.  It's the use of an attack power with a target line that is directly harmful to a creature.  Yes, it breaks Hidden.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Does sustaining (paticularly witches bolt) break stealth?



Depends on the power and your special effects budget.  The DM's well within his rights to say "Sustaining that zone requires handwaving and chanting, so you're breaking the 'keep your damn fool mouth shut' rule"

It's low budget.  So the guy just twiches while sparks fly from 2-3 obvious spots on his vest (which he wasn't wearing the scene before).
That being said:  I have no idea what power you're talking about.  Link me?


Witch Bolt | Wizard Attack 1
You hurl a bolt of crackling energy, forming a line of lightning between you and your foe.
At-Will * Arcane, Evocation, Implement, Lightning
Standard Action     Ranged 5
Target: One creature
Attack: Intelligence vs Reflex
Hit: 1d10 + Intelligence modifier lightning damage.
 Level 21: 2d10 + Intelligence modifier lightning damage.
Sustain Standard: Reroll the damage and deal it to the target again. Once the target is out of range, you can't sustain this power.


Yes, the sustain effect from Witch Bolt is an attack.  It's the use of an attack power with a target line that is directly harmful to a creature.  Yes, it breaks Hidden.

So sustaining is "using"?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Sustain Standard: Reroll the damage and deal it to the target again. Once the target is out of range, you can't sustain this power.



Hey look, an attack.  Hidden is broken.  Leaving aside, y'know, the SFX budget of "a line of lightning connects you to your foe"

So sustaining is "using"?



There are cases where it must be or something breaks, and there are cases when saying that sustaining counts as "using" will break something.

So you've got to handle it on a case by case basis.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
I think that's a different question.  Whether each individual sustain is an individual use for the purposes of "When you use an arcane attack power" sorts of things isn't what we're asking, and isn't the only option.

I would argue that the sustain is part of the same use of the power.  It's continuing the use, not generating a new use.

Bottom line, I'm hedging because this is exactly the sort of thing the rules don't precisely define and, according to the devs, is down to a level of detail they never meant to make explicit.  Which sucks, but there you have it.  I don't think it's appropriate to take this ruling about whether this power causes you to break hidden and extrapolate that to the entire system.  Doing so might increase consistency in some areas, but it will break it in others.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Sustain Standard: Reroll the damage and deal it to the target again. Once the target is out of range, you can't sustain this power.



Hey look, an attack.  Hidden is broken.

So would the same be true of sustaining say... stinking cloud, or living missile Seal of Binding?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Sustain Standard: Reroll the damage and deal it to the target again. Once the target is out of range, you can't sustain this power.



Hey look, an attack.  Hidden is broken.

So would the same be true of sustaining say... stinking cloud, or living missile?




#1:  Living Missile can't *be* sustained.  Instead, you get to MAKE AN ATTACK once a round until the target saves.

And since you're making an attack?  It breaks Hidden.

#2:  Stinking Cloud, unlike Witch Bolt, doesn't make any attacks, so it doesn't break Hidden for the making-an-attack reason.  However, now we're back to the SFX budget question, and my previous statement that:  The DM's well within his rights to say "Sustaining that zone requires handwaving and chanting, so you're breaking the 'keep your damn fool mouth shut' rule"

Almost everything in D&D is flashy and obvious, it's part of the idiom.  Which means that *almost everything* that isn't "keep quiet, move slowly, don't use any powers" breaks Hidden, and that's by design.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Living Missile can't *be* sustained

Bad example, my mistake.  I was looking for a singe target sustain as an example.

#2:  Stinking Cloud, unlike Witch Bolt, doesn't make any attacks, so it doesn't break Hidden for the making-an-attack reason.

What part of Which Bolt makes sustaining it an attack?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

The part where you're dealing damage to a target.  It's as much an attack as Magic Missile.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
A note on what is probably the rarest exception ever.

From the compendium, hidden:
When a creature is hidden from an enemy, the creature is silent and invisible to that enemy. A creature normally uses the Stealth skill to become hidden.



So if you blind and deafen an enemy, everyone is hidden from them (unless they have a special sense that overrules this general rule, like tremorsense).


I think there's all of one power in the game that can do that, but it is something to note; if you turn off your opponent's primary senses, then yes, you are hidden from them.



This is not correct.  Hidden MAKES YOU silent and invisible.  Silent and invisible does not make you Hidden, because Hidden is more than just silent and invisible.

regardless if your silent or not a creature never knows exactly where you are when your invisible without a sucess on a passive or active perception check, jus because you make sound doesn't mean that everyone automatically hears it. Same with smell
They'll still know what square you're in, they can automatically hear you moving around. Unless you actually make a Stealth check, at which point they lose track of you, but you can only do that at the end of an action, so they'll probably still assume you're in the same square. Unless you actually move with another action, they'll be correct.
Epic Dungeon Master

Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

Your Kingdom awaits!
Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
The Rules Of Hidden Club: 

Things you can't see and things you can't find, in D&D.


Knowing what you can and can't see, and what you can and can't target, and knowing when you get to say "I aim at the invisible guy in that square" versus "I don't know where he is, I'll just guess", is very important in D&D.  The purpose of this mini-guide is to clarify the rules for Stealth and invisibility, and how they interact.


The Premises, AKA The Core Rules That You Need To Know FIRST:


The First Premise:  Everyone knows where everyone else is, at all times, period.

No, seriously.  EVERYONE.  EVERYWHERE.  ALWAYS.  There is no such thing as a combatant whose current position you do not know.  Except....

The Second Premise:  There is one and only one exception to The First Premise, and that exception is Hidden.

The status "Hidden", achievable only through rolling Stealth, is the only exception to this.  It is the only way by which anyone can be uncertain about the current position of anyone else.

If you are not Hidden, EVERYONE KNOWS WHERE YOU ARE, PERIOD.  If you are Hidden, anyone you are Hidden from must guess your current location.

This is going to be repeated a few more times in the text below, because it is the most important thing to remember and it heavily impacts everything else.

For the record, I capitalise "Hidden" as it is a specific game concept with a specific meaning, even though the book does not.    The book really should - Hidden is a real state, a real condition, and it SHOULD be covered as a fully capitalised game term with a glossary entry, not simply be left to be defined in the Stealth Skill entry.


Now that that's covered, let's cover some basic concepts:



"Concealment":  Partial LOS failure, usually provided by a class feature, terrain feature, or magic item.  You are NOT invisible and you CAN be seen.  Concealment is enough to MAINTAIN Hidden, but not enough to BECOME hidden.

"Total Concealment":  You are invisible. Nobody can see you, but unless you're also Hidden, they still know where you are.  You can *become* Hidden, but you are not inherently Hidden.

"Invisible":  You have Total Concealment.  No, seriously, that's all Invisibility means.  Nothing less, NOTHING MORE.  Invisibility is NOT Hidden.

"Hidden":  The state of being able to conceal your location.  If you are Hidden, enemies have to guess your square.  If you are not Hidden, they know where you are, at all times.


To recap:  IF YOU ARE NOT "HIDDEN", YOUR ENEMIES KNOW WHERE YOU ARE, PERIOD, whether they can see you or not.  If something doesn't SAY you are Hidden, you are not Hidden, period.



Becoming Hidden



How do you become Hidden?  You roll Stealth at the end of any Move Action or any of your Actions (even Free Actions) during which you move. 

"Move" is defined in the PHB3 glossary as, roughly, to leave one square for any reason to enter another square.  You can't roll Stealth after Forced Movement since that's not your action.  You CAN roll Stealth after a granted Free Action.

You must also meet three requirements:
1)  You must not be visible, which means Total Concealment or Superior Cover, at the end of the move.
2)  Your Stealth roll must beat the Passive Perception of anyone you want to be Hidden from
3)  You cannot have HAD Hidden at the start of the action and lost it during the action.  Which is to say, you can't BECOME Hidden as part of the same action that loses your Hidden state.

By the way, any time you become Hidden, record the number you rolled.  It's important.


Q: Once you are Hidden, then what? 

A: Anyone who wants to attack you must guess what square you are in.  Note that you became Hidden AT THE END of a Move, and you weren't Hidden until after the end of the move.  Everyone knew where you were before you became Hidden, which means they knew where you were AFTER you became Hidden.  If you haven't moved out of that square, they technically have to guess your location but, really, they're going to guess "where you where when they lost you".  If you don't move AFTER becoming Hidden, you're not going to avoid a lot of attacks.

Q: If I'm Hidden, I'm Hidden from EVERYONE, right? 

A: No.  Technically, Hidden only applies to enemies, so your allies ALWAYS know where you are unless you're specifically hiding from them, too.  Also, Hidden only applies to people against whom you meet the requirements.  If you only have Total Concealment from one enemy, you CAN become Hidden from that enemy, but you CAN'T become Hidden from his friends.  

Q: So I'm Hidden, that means I'm safe now, right? 

A: No.  Now that you are Hidden, you are a member of a very prestigious and selective club:  Hidden Club.

Hidden Club has rules that you must obey, or you will be kicked out.


The Rules Of Hidden Club:  Losing Hidden


The First Rule Of Hidden Club:


Stay out of sight.  If, at ANY TIME, you lack at least Cover or Concealment from an enemy, you lose Hidden against that enemy.  It doesn't matter if this is your turn or his, or if it's in the middle of a move, or because a Wall got broken down.  No Cover and No Concealment = EXPELLED FROM HIDDEN CLUB.  Oh, and this means REAL cover - the kind of Cover you get against Ranged attacks by hiding behind an ally doesn't count.



The Second Rule Of Hidden Club:


 Keep quiet.  Anything louder than a whisper, or any environmental interaction above the same kind of level, expels you from Hidden Club.


The Third Rule Of Hidden Club: 


Keep Still.  If you don't move more than 2 squares at a time, you have no chance of losing Hidden.  If you move more than 2, you have to roll Stealth with a penalty in order to stay a member of Hidden Club - and every time you do, your new number replaces your old number, for better or worse.




The Fourth Rule Of Hidden Club: 


Don't Attack.  If you attack, you are immediately Expelled From Hidden Club, period.



The Fifth Rule Of Hidden Club:


 Don't let the enemy FIND you.  An enemy can spend a Minor Action to roll Perception, and if he beats your Stealth (you DID write it down, right?), you lose Hidden.  As well, any enemy who attempts to move into your space automatically finds you, period. 


The Unspeakable Final Rule Of Hidden Club:


When you do something to lose Hidden, you keep the benefits of being Hidden until the end of that action.   So moving out into the open costs you Hidden, but you keep Hidden until the end of the *entire action* - so if your action is Deft Strike, which lets you move *and* attack as part of the same action, you're Hidden during the attack part even though the Move part of it lost you Hidden.  Similarly, if you have a power that lets you attack then move, attacking costs you Hidden but you *are* still Hidden during the move, until the full action is over.




Things you need to ask your DM about because the rules don't address them

Q: "if a monster is Hidden from Joe but not from me, can I tell Joe what square it's in?"
A:  Yes, but the concept of "squares" is not an in-game thing for the most part, and some GMs think it should be difficult to tell your allies EXACTLY what square an enemy is in.  Other simply say "you know where it is, talking is a Free Action, as long as you WANT to tell your allies where the guy is, you can."

Which GM is yours?  I don't know.  You need to ask him.

A:  As of the Rules Compendium, there is now an explicit rule for this on page 150:  Yes, you CAN point out the exact square of any creature you are aware of, to anyone else.

This does NOT mean that the creature is no longer Hidden, or that anyone else can perceive it - but as long as they believe you when you tell them what square it's in, they can "guess" the right square automatically.

So, as long as PCs are sharing information and can take Free Actions, anyone who breaks Hidden can tell everyone else what square to target.

Q: "if a power says I can roll Stealth to become Hidden, does that remove the normal requirements for Total Concealment/Superior Cover?"
A:  This is unclear.  As-written, both sides have arguments.  However, the effects of the different rules are such that a bunch of inconsistent things and additional sources of confusion arise if the requirements to become Hidden are bypassed, while leaving the requirements to become Hidden intact makes those powers a little weaker but results in no confusion or inconsistency. 

I personally am convinced that "does not remove the normal requirements because it does not specifically say it removes the normal requirements" is the proper reading, but that's me.  Statistically speaking, you probably don't play in my game.  So ask your GM.

As of the Martial Power 2 FAQ, this has been answered:  You DO need to meet all the normal requirements to become Hidden, unless the power specifically says that it overrides the normal requirements.

The bit about you most likely not playing in my game is still true, statistically speaking.


Now, for some common questions.



Q:  What about guys really far away, with a distraction, etc?
A:  That's a situational penalty to the Perception skill, as per DMG.  

Q:  What about guys in the NEXT encounter?  Do I know about them?  Do they know about me?
A:  No.  They don't exist yet.   The rules for Stealth and becoming Hidden apply only to creatures in the current Encounter. 

Q:  But I'm invisible!  My enemies can't see me!  They should have to guess where I am!
A:  You may be invisible, but you're not inaudible, unsmellable, undetectable (think Predator), and you're not Hidden.  Since you haven't put the work in to become Hidden, THEY KNOW WHERE YOU ARE.

Q:  But I'm invisible AND they're Blind AND they're 30 squares away AND I'm downwind AND there's a giant roaring waterfall next to me!  Shouldn't they have NO CLUE where I am?
A:  Not if you're not Hidden.  By the way, I'm counting something close to a +30 situational bonus there - take your NO ACTION and ROLL STEALTH at the end of your next move.  Sheesh!

Q:  Can I "move 0" and become Hidden?
A:  Yes, if you used a Move Action.  Same with standing up - any Move Action, or any action that lets you Move.

Q:  Doesn't all this make Hidden REALLLLLY hard to get and maintain?
A:  Kind of, yes - but that's intentional.  Being Hidden isn't just about Combat Advantage, it's about virtual immunity to attack.  As long as you're Hidden and can get away from your last known location unfollowed, you are almost completely immune to attacks and anything targeting you is almost certainly going to miss, outright, without a roll.

This is very, very powerful.  And so it's hard to do.  If you're just going Hidden to get Combat Advantage, it's actually a lot easier - but you don't get the immunity to attacks that way.



Anything not clear?  Tell me, I'll add it to the post.

hidden isn't capitilised because it wasn't meant as a specific game concept, it is a state of being. It is situational at best an totally up to the Dm whether or not a character is capable of hidding from something. you don't have to be trained in stealth to hide in a secret side chamber an remain silent.





  When a creature is hidden from an enemy, the creature is silent and invisible to that enemy. A creature normally uses the Stealth skill to become hidden. See also invisible.

 rules specifically state that a creature NORMALLY uses a stealth check to become hidden not that it must. 
I'm pretty sure that goes around everything the rules say, which include "Hidden" as a specific game concept, with specific rules on how to attain it, how to keep it, and how to lose it, as well as specific class builds that revolve around becoming hidden.

So, yeah. Your point makes no sense. Even if it wasn't originally designed to be a concept, it is now. It's referenced by powers, items, feats, class features, etc.

It's even in the Glossary, as a "Rules Condition".
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Hidden MAKES YOU silent and invisible.  Silent and invisible does not make you Hidden, because Hidden is more than just silent and invisible.

regardless if your silent or not a creature never knows exactly where you are when your invisible without a sucess on a passive or active perception check, jus because you make sound doesn't mean that everyone automatically hears it. Same with smell



No, this is wrong.

Unless you have rolled Stealth to become Hidden, or gained Hidden through some other means, everyone knows exactly where you are.

Just because a creature is Blind and Deaf does not mean it doesn't know where you are.  It just gets a huge penalty on it's Perception when you try to hide from it - and then, once you lose Hidden, like by attacking?  It knows exactly where you are again.

Because that's how the rules work.

And they work that way because that way is a non-broken way.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Ignoring the redundancy argument here, I have a legitimate question.  I'm just trying to understand one of the rules specifically.  First, example situation.  Second, rules comparisons.  Third, question.

Marsha, a thick-nosed halfling rogue (who was hit by a round hide sack filled with sand) is hiding behind a highway divider (insert something fantasy oriented here).  This object is large enough to give her superior cover, in that its impossible to used a melee or ranged attack to hit her while behind this object.  On her last turn, she darted behind it after a flash-bang went off, using the brief panic of the enemy as a distraction to hide, so not only does she make her stealth to become hidden, the enemy was also distracted so they could not see her moving to the barrier and thus have no 'evident' clue of her location; however, they intellectually have a good guess its the only place she could be hiding.  Obviously, she's still hidden, because obviously, they're 'guessing' her square.

Next action, next turn; she uses her move action to dart to her left across a 10 foot gap to dart behind yet another highway divider.  She makes her stealth check after the move, and after this move she has superior cover yet again.  However, for that 10 feet of movement without cover, she is 'automatically spotted.'

The Guidelines:  3)  You cannot have HAD Hidden at the start of the action and lost it during the action.  Which is to say, you can't BECOME Hidden as part of the same action that loses your Hidden state.  --Since Marsha was 'hidden', darted across an opening (lost hidden) and then dived behind superior cover again, she can't become hidden again?  My major problem with this is; if Marsha hadn't used the distraction to get behind the first barrier (she was already well-seen at this point) she has hidden; they can't see her.  But because she was seen after being hidden and then re-dove behind other cover, she can't be hidden anymore?  I'm clearly confused.

My first thought is the 'until end of action' line comes into play.  She doesn't technically lose the 'hidden' until the move ends, at which point she will still have superior cover.  So that 10 feet of open, clear-sighted movement has no bearing on her being able to 'hide'?  Does she still gain the hidden state, but its kind of a 'duh, she's behind that big rock' factor?
She cannot regain hidden as part of an action in which she loses it, so unless she has cover or concealment during the move, she cannot regain Hidden.

It's confusing, but it's the rules.  It's the entire reason why Hidden requires you to have Concealment or Cover to mnaintain it - to prevent you from being able to Hide behind something, and move freely whilst retaining Hidden.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Good thing house rules always prevail.  In no way would I let an enemy know someone's exact location after the second stealth check in that situation.  The hidden state only implies the need to assume a location, and ignoring states (blind isn't blind, deaf isn't deaf) etc etc, without tremor sense you still have to 'assume' a particular square she may be in behind that cover without moving around to then gain direct line of sight/effect.  So I'm guessing its a break in the rules uncovered, or using my previous theory to overwrite.  Honestly, from any view of common sense, entering cover and becoming hidden after being completely seen in the throes of battle makes less sense than darting from cover to cover and becoming hidden.

Edit:  I would also like to point out how silly this makes things, using the rules as listed without intelligent exceptions:

Assuming moving across the barriers disallows one to make a stealth check at the end of the movement, let's also assume Marsha is now a Kobold.  So since she can't become hidden due to 'the rules' she can now use a minor action to shift 1 square and then be hidden?  Just noting the silliness, should that be the case.  I'm still leaning toward 'you don't lose hidden until the -end- of the action causing you to lose it, meaning you wouldn't lose it until you were behind new superior cover, meaning you could maintain.  Just my thoughts, however.
Hidden MAKES YOU silent and invisible.  Silent and invisible does not make you Hidden, because Hidden is more than just silent and invisible.

regardless if your silent or not a creature never knows exactly where you are when your invisible without a sucess on a passive or active perception check, jus because you make sound doesn't mean that everyone automatically hears it. Same with smell



No, this is wrong.

Unless you have rolled Stealth to become Hidden, or gained Hidden through some other means, everyone knows exactly where you are.

Just because a creature is Blind and Deaf does not mean it doesn't know where you are.  It just gets a huge penalty on it's Perception when you try to hide from it - and then, once you lose Hidden, like by attacking?  It knows exactly where you are again.

Because that's how the rules work.

And they work that way because that way is a non-broken way.

Perfect Hunter's WeaponLevel 30 Uncommon

This weapon ignores cover and concealment when its magic is activated.


Weapon: Any ranged        3,125,000 gp


Enhancement Bonus: attack rolls and damage rolls


Critical: +1d12 damage per plus


Power Daily (Standard Action)


When you use this power, you automatically pinpoint the location of all creatures within 10 squares of you, even if line of sight or line of effect to those creatures would normally be blocked. This pinpointing lasts until the end of your turn. You can target any one of those creatures as if it did not have cover or concealment. You can then make a ranged basic attack with this weapon with a +5 bonus to the attack roll.


 No, sir you are wrong.  What your trying to tell me is that this level 30 weapon bestows an ability that I start with? If that is the case why then do they specify. Should go without saying if the rules are to be interpreted as you believe. 
Actually that weapon specifically allows you pinpoint hidden creatures. Which is the whole point. You're aware that a fellow combatant is behind a wall if he's not making a stealth check (and beating you) but this weapon also lets you see that person if he did hide.

That said, it's a pretty poor weapon. Unless they meant to say "attack as though it didn't have any cover or concealment", implying that you can shoot through walls and such. That'd be kinda cool, but I don't think that's how it works right now.

Good thing house rules always prevail.



Just be careful. The rules might not always make sense this way, but at least they cannot be abused. If you change them to what you're suggesting, a good Rogue might be able to abuse them.
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Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
Actually that weapon specifically allows you pinpoint hidden creatures. Which is the whole point. You're aware that a fellow combatant is behind a wall if he's not making a stealth check (and beating you) but this weapon also lets you see that person if he did hide.

That said, it's a pretty poor weapon. Unless they meant to say "attack as though it didn't have any cover or concealment", implying that you can shoot through walls and such. That'd be kinda cool, but I don't think that's how it works right now.

Good thing house rules always prevail.



Just be careful. The rules might not always make sense this way, but at least they cannot be abused. If you change them to what you're suggesting, a good Rogue might be able to abuse them.

The weapon specifically says line of sight and effect NOT hidden. ( Furthermore it goes on to tell you that you can make an attack against creatures you have no line of sight or effect on.) Unless someone can reference a rule that says your position is automatically known regardless unless your hidden then your entire argument is moot.
Discussion has very little to do with a rogue and much more to do with invisibility an total concealment.
I don't have my books here, so I can't reference the rule but I'm pretty sure someone else can quote it.

The only thing I can reference is the first premise of hidden club:

The First Premise:  Everyone knows where everyone else is, at all times, period.

I don't know where the rule is from though; this topic is to teach people what the rules are, not show where to find them.
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Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
Compendium has no record of these rules, just scoured it. If you can't find it in print somewhere it's not a rule.
Like I said; I don't have my books here. If I'm not mistaken it's in the PHB somewhere under "targeting things you cannot see".
Epic Dungeon Master

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Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
specifically says in PHB that you must guess which square if you cannot see them.
.
Found it! It's in the errata document (and probably updated in the Rules Compendium as well). They updated it at some point. Copying from the errata document for the PHB which you can find here:
www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/u...

Targeting what you can't see
Invisible creatures and Stealth:
If an invisible creature is hidden from you, you can neither hear nor see it, and you have to guess what space it occupies. If an invisible creature is not hidden from you, you can hear it or sense some other sign of its presence and therefore know what space it occupies, although you still can't see it.



That's the one I was remembering. Guess it's not in the original print, so quoting my own PHB wouldn't have helped either Smile
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Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
Found it, still think it should be more of a situational thing left up to DM, but ty. Compendium has yet to be updated with that rule
It depends. I wouldn't mind it being a situational thing left up to the DM if it's actually a rare occasion (and I certainly don't know nor really use the stealth rules in my own game) but I'm glad these solid and fair rules exist for character archetypes that rely heavily upon stealth.

With builds like the Cunning Rogue going around, it's very important to have a clear idea of how stealth in combat works, or they'll be completely useless or entirely broken. For those situations where you only use stealth in combat once every 20 encounters, yeah, DM decision will work just fine.
Epic Dungeon Master

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Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
In no way would I let an enemy know someone's exact location after the second stealth check in that situation. 



Why not?

"Hidden" automatically assumes that they know where you were when they lost you.  Which is to say, they know they lost track of Martha behind that first barricade.  And then she moves, losing Hidden, and they know exactly where she is again.  They can't do much about it - she's still getting the benefits of Hidden until the end of the move - but she's still revealed herself and they'll know where she went.

Edit:  I would also like to point out how silly this makes things, using the rules as listed without intelligent exceptions:

Assuming moving across the barriers disallows one to make a stealth check at the end of the movement, let's also assume Marsha is now a Kobold.  So since she can't become hidden due to 'the rules' she can now use a minor action to shift 1 square and then be hidden?  Just noting the silliness, should that be the case.  I'm still leaning toward 'you don't lose hidden until the -end- of the action causing you to lose it, meaning you wouldn't lose it until you were behind new superior cover, meaning you could maintain.  Just my thoughts, however.



That is the point of the Utility Power Shadow Stride:  Someone with Shadow Stride can remain Hidden while moving freely, as long as they were Hidden before and reach a place where they can remain Hidden after.

Anyone without that power?  Gets spotted while they're out in the open.

Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Power Daily (Standard Action)

When you use this power, you automatically pinpoint the location of all creatures within 10 squares of you, even if line of sight or line of effect to those creatures would normally be blocked. This pinpointing lasts until the end of your turn. You can target any one of those creatures as if it did not have cover or concealment. You can then make a ranged basic attack with this weapon with a +5 bonus to the attack roll.


 No, sir you are wrong.  What your trying to tell me is that this level 30 weapon bestows an ability that I start with? If that is the case why then do they specify. Should go without saying if the rules are to be interpreted as you believe. 



Nope.  You're still wrong.

Perfect Hunter's Weapon does three things:
#1:  Reveals the location of Hidden creatures
#2:  Allows you to attack without any Cover or Concealment penalties
#3:  Gives a +5 to the attack roll.

It technically does a fourth,
#4:  Sucks.  It's a terrible power.

For bonus points, look at the book it's from:  PHB1.  Which is to say, it was printed *before the rules for Stealth and Hidden were printed*.

(PS:  You appear to be using a printed copy of PHB1.  Don't do that.  The rules for Stealth and targeting things you can't see in the original PHB were horribly broken and dumb, so much so that they were errata'd about a month after the book came out.  The non-stupid rules are available from the updates page, and were also printed in the back of PHB2.)
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.