Deathtouch debate question

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George controls 2 Acidic Slimes, one enchanted with Reflexes.  He casts overrun and attacks Sylvia.
Sylvia controls a Palace Guard enchanted with Indestructibility.  Sylvia declares the Palace Guard to block both creatures.

In summary we have two creatures attacking:
5/5 Deathtouch, first strike, trample
5/5 Deathtouch Trample

Both being blocked by
1/4 Indestructible

What is the maximum damage that can be dealt to Sylvia from this attack?

There is debate between 9 or 8 damage.
People who argue 9 say when the non first striking creatures deals its damage, it already takes into account that lethal damage has been assigned to the creature so the full 5 comes through.

People who argue 8 say the damage is dealt in the previous step, but after states are checked and the attempt at destruction occurs, the damage does not remember it was from a source, so the second attacker still has to assign the 1 damage to the blocker.
I would say 9, based on this note in the FAQ:
If a creature with deathtouch and another creature both block or are blocked by a creature, the other creature may take into account the fact that any combat damage dealt by a creature with deathtouch is considered to be lethal damage.
 
 
Yeah it's 9, whether or not one of them has first strike.

In this case, the 1 damage is still on the indestructible creature, it hasn't gone away after the first combat damage step. So it's still considered having 'lethal damage' so the trampler can ignore it in the second step.
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Eight.

The first-striking 5/5 deathtouch trampler has to assignl lethal damage, either damage equal to toughness (4) or one deathtouch. Naturally, you choose to assign one to the Guard and trample four.

Then, the normal-striker has to deal damage equal to toughness minus marked damage (three), or one deathtouch. The creature does NOT have lethal damage marked on it (Deathtouch damage is only lethal during damage assignment, not once it's been dealt and is sitting on a creature. Even assigning damage during the second phase, the death-touchness of the damage goes away after SBA's are checked and the Deathtouch one has tried and failed to destroy it), so you have to deal your single token damage to it before trampling through.
Rules Nut Advisor
It seems to me that what rudolf quoted only addresses cases where multiple creatures are dealing damage simultaneously, though.

I've just done a search through the comprules for the phrase "lethal damage", and there's nothing that makes it clear whether a creature with damage from a source with deathtouch is still considered lethally damaged after the next SBE check (though 702.2b might appear to imply that it is), in the way a creature with damage >= toughness is.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
(Deathtouch damage is only lethal during damage assignment, not once it's been dealt and is sitting on a creature.

Why? I lean in this direction too but it's not clear to me from the comprules. This is not a case where I'm satisified with the mere absence of anything that says differently, as that argument can be used by either side in this case.

Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
Eight.

The first-striking 5/5 deathtouch trampler has to assignl lethal damage, either damage equal to toughness (4) or one deathtouch. Naturally, you choose to assign one to the Guard and trample four.

Then, the normal-striker has to deal damage equal to toughness minus marked damage (three), or one deathtouch. The creature does NOT have lethal damage marked on it (Deathtouch damage is only lethal during damage assignment, not once it's been dealt and is sitting on a creature. Even assigning damage during the second phase, the death-touchness of the damage goes away after SBA's are checked and the Deathtouch one has tried and failed to destroy it), so you have to deal your single token damage to it before trampling through.



This rule doesn't say it's not considered lethal damage after the first combat damage step.  It just says that any non-zero combat damage is considered to be lethal damage. 

702.2b Any nonzero amount of combat damage assigned to a creature by a source with deathtouch is considered to be lethal damage, regardless of that creature’s toughness. 


There's another rule that says the creature won't be destroyed, but that doesn't seem to negate that the creature has lethal damage on it and so the creature with trample doesn't need to assign it any more damage.
Ok, here's the relevant rules:

Show


Combat damage assignment:

510.1c A blocked creature assigns its combat damage to the creatures blocking it. If no creatures are currently blocking it (if, for example, they were destroyed or removed from combat), it assigns no combat damage. If exactly one creature is blocking it, it assigns all its combat damage to that creature. If two or more creatures are blocking it, it assigns its combat damage to those creatures according to the damage assignment order announced for it. This may allow the blocked creature to divide its combat damage. However, it can't assign combat damage to a creature that's blocking it unless each creature that precedes that blocking creature in its order is assigned lethal damage. When checking for assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures that's being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage that's actually dealt. An amount of damage that's greater than a creature's lethal damage may be assigned to it.



Deathtouch:
702.2b Any nonzero amount of combat damage assigned to a creature by a source with deathtouch is considered to be lethal damage, regardless of that creature's toughness. See rules 510.1c-d.

702.2c A creature with toughness greater than 0 that's been dealt damage by a source with deathtouch since the last time state-based actions were checked is destroyed as a state-based action. See rule 704.

SBA's:
704.5g If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.

704.5h If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and it's been dealt damage by a source with deathtouch since the last time state-based actions were checked, that creature is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.



Note how the SBA's don't consider Deathtouch damage lethal. It's only "lethal damage" while assigning. Once it's been dealt, it uses a completely different set of rules, and gets its own SBA.
Also note that the combat damage rules only care about two things: the damage that's on the creature and the damage assigned to it in that step. The fact that the one damage on the Guard was lethal during the last step is irrelevant to assigning damage. It still needs to be dealt lethal damage during this combat damage step.
Rules Nut Advisor
Yeah I was just about to post the exact same rule and say the same thing!

The SBA says this:

704.5h If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and it’s been dealt damage by a source with deathtouch since the last time state-based actions were checked, that creature is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.

So if the creature later that turn stopped being indestructible, the damage wouldn't destroy it. That sort of, but not conclusively, implies that the damage stops being lethal damage... but the rule rudolf quoted doesn't say it stops being lethal damage after a certain point. The whole 'lethal damage' thing is always a bit fiddly.
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Hmm... yeah I remember reading some weird article about this now to do with lethal damage having a very strange definition and it being to do with assigning damage and something being 'lethal damage' doesn't actually do anything... I guess it's just a name for it.

I guess the rule is saying it's "considered" to be lethal damage, just for the purposes of assigning damage, but it isn't actually lethal damage. Could be a lot clearer though I think. It says it's considered to be lethal damage, but it doesn't say it's considered lethal damage only with regard to assigning combat damage. Or just considered it while it's assigned but not when it's dealt... yeah it could be a lot clearer, I can see this causes mucho problems.
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Hmm... yeah I remember reading some weird article about this now to do with lethal damage having a very strange definition and it being to do with assigning damage and something being 'lethal damage' doesn't actually do anything... I guess it's just a name for it.

I guess the rule is saying it's "considered" to be lethal damage, just for the purposes of assigning damage, but it isn't actually. Could be a lot clearer though I think.



Yeah, I missed that point and only caught it during a reply on another topic. A single point of combat damage assigned from a deathtoucher is considered lethal, but it actually isn't. Therefore, anything else that cares about lethal damage (assignments during the next combat step, for example), could care less, because it's just normal damage as far as it's concerned.
Rules Nut Advisor
Indeed, I think the rules could do with a clarification in brackets after that rule...

...is considered lethal damage (only for the purposes of assigning damage in the current combat damage step, it isn't actually lethal damage).

Without that I don't think it's stone cold clear exactly what it means. To me it reads more like an exception for deathtouch damage, that it can be lethal even though it's not the usual definition of lethal; rather than an exception just for that combat damage step.

I don't even know why it's this way. It doesn't make much sense to me. If the damage is 'considered' lethal in one combat step, even just for the purposes of assigning combat damage, it seems silly to say it then isn't considered the same way in the next combat step (non first strikers). Seems unintuitive. The trample rule is clearly set up to let through maximum damage, but this case seems to reel that in for no apparrent reason.

What about "...is considered lethal damage for the purposes of assigning combat damage this turn."

The unbreakable creature isn't going to die from the damage now or next week anyhow, so what difference does it make that some dude hit him a second ago rather than at the same time?
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It's not all that counterintuitive. Analogy time!

Say you've got two boulders rolling down a hill, with one little but incredibly tough guy trying to stop them. He can't do it, but he can at least slow them down a little. If they're coming at the same time (no first strike), he can only get in front of one to slow it down (4 damage), while the other one sails on by (5 damage, for a total of 9). If they're coming one at a time (one has first strike), he can slow each one down as it reaches him (4 damage each, total of 8).

Ok, that wasn't all that relevant, but the image of a little monster acting as a speed bump for boulders made me giggle too much not to post that.

Anyway, it is a little strange that giving one creature first strike makes the total attack deal less damage, but it's true. After the first ooze deals damage, the damage is no longer "considered" lethal damage, let alone actually being lethal. The Palace Guard is then a 1/4 with 1 damage marked on it (not lethal), so the second ooze has to assign a "lethal" one damage to get through.

This is the same thing, incidentally, that would happen if the palace guard had protection from green. Because the palace guard would have no damage marked on it for the second combat step (despite having been assigned "lethal" damage in the first), the second ooze would have to assign another damage before rolling on by.

Anyway, I stand by my answer. The oozes can only deal 8 total damage to the defending player.
Rules Nut Advisor
The Glossary entry for lethal damage is pretty unambiguous:
Lethal Damage
An amount of damage greater than or equal to a creature's toughness. See rules 119.6, 510.1, and 704.5g.


No mention of deathtouch at all.

Also, there's no such thing as "deathtouch damage", just as there's no such thing as "wither damage".  Damage is damage; the damage just has different effects depending on what it's dealt to and what characteristics its source has.  Once damage is marked on a creature, it's just plain ol' damage.
Hmm... yeah I remember reading some weird article about this now to do with lethal damage having a very strange definition and it being to do with assigning damage and something being 'lethal damage' doesn't actually do anything... I guess it's just a name for it.

I guess the rule is saying it's "considered" to be lethal damage, just for the purposes of assigning damage, but it isn't actually lethal damage. Could be a lot clearer though I think. It says it's considered to be lethal damage, but it doesn't say it's considered lethal damage only with regard to assigning combat damage. Or just considered it while it's assigned but not when it's dealt... yeah it could be a lot clearer, I can see this causes mucho problems.



I conceeded a game at the M11 pre-release because  I was playing with the 1/4 rules destroyer and couldn't figure out the outcome.

I conceeded a game at the M11 pre-release because  I was playing with the 1/4 rules destroyer and couldn't figure out the outcome.




Why not call a judge?  That's what they're there for.
 

I conceeded a game at the M11 pre-release because  I was playing with the 1/4 rules destroyer and couldn't figure out the outcome.




Why not call a judge?  That's what they're there for.
 



The judges were the organizers, and they know less about the rules than I do. They screwed me over on rulings more than once.
Well, if you're going to concede anyway, the worst they can do is screw you over on the rulings. If they don't have any official judges, you could still just see if any of the other players are judges, or even Rules Advisors in a pinch. Even then, you're not guaranteed to get a correct ruling unless you happen to have a copy of the CR on you.

Anyway, getting someone to make a call on it, whether it's correct or not, would probably be preferable to conceding.
Rules Nut Advisor
If creatures are not destroyed by lethal damage, but rather by SBA's that check for lethal damage, what's the deal with this?
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What about it? You check if the damage that is lethal came from one source. If it didn't, the SBA does not work.

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If creatures are not destroyed by lethal damage, but rather by SBA's that check for lethal damage, what's the deal with this?


One damage from a source with deathtouch will destroy him, as the creature with deathtouch is lethal and coming from one source (the creature).

Interesting thread! Answer is 8, nice!

Rules Advisor

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

How to autocard :
Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

Well, the card uses the phrase "destroyed by lethal damage", even on Oracle. Lethal damage does not destroy creatures. I believe it should say "destroyed due to having lethal damage".
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Well, the card uses the phrase "destroyed by lethal damage", even on Oracle. Lethal damage does not destroy creatures. I believe it should say "destroyed due to having lethal damage".


Ogre Enforcer can't be destroyed by lethal damage unless lethal damage dealt by a single source is marked on it.

Oracle text is clear enough: the creature is not destroyed byt the lethal damage rule unless it has been assigned lethal damage by a single source. That is X damage from a single source where X is his toughness or more or 1 damage from a source with deathtouch.

It prevents the rule of lethal damage to by applied to him BUT with an exception.

Lousy template, we must admit, flavourful but lousy. :P

Rules Advisor

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

How to autocard :
Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

Hmm yeah, it's clear what it means, but it's not rules-accurate. It doesn't say destroyed by the lethal damage rule, or destroyed by SBAs or destroyed becuause of having lethal damage, it says it can't be destroyed by lethal damage; which technically makes the ability worthless since nothing is ever destroyed by lethal damage.

For the same reason Sengir Vampire has to have damaged a creature, it doesn't say "destroyed by Sengir Vampire this turn" and expect us to realize that's a shortcut for "destroyed by having been dealt damage by Sengire and then SBAd".

Also, what's up with Sengir Vampire? I get that if he kills a creature, he feeds off it and stuff and gets stronger. But if he hurts something, say a 5/5 creature, and the creature survives, he gets no bonus. But if it's finished off later by something else, he gets a bonus even though his level of interaction with the creature was the same. Why does he suddenly get bigger because his victim died later? If you argue he feeds off the corpse, then he would feed off every corpse. I guess he's just picky about his bite-pals.

EDIT: Funny thing, Ogre Enforcer is the only card I can find that specifically mentions lethal damage (outside of reminder text) and it does so inaccurately. You can forgive the indestructible reminder text for not being accurate, but I don't think you can forgive the Enforcer. I can't. I won't.
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Regarding Ogre Enforcer, you are correct about what happens, but youe are very wrong as to the reason. Ogre Enforcer will be destroyed when it takes Deathtouch damage, but NOT because it is lethal damage. It is destroyed because Deathtouch is a separate state-based effect that has nothing whatsoever to do with lethal damage. Ogre Enforcer's ability prevents being destroyed from lethal damage in some instances, but it does absolutely nothing to protect against Deathtouch's destruction.

It may seem petty to quibble over semantics, but these particular semantics are absolutely central to the discussion in this thread!
Rules Nut Advisor
I wasn't talking about deathtouch with regard to Ogre Enforcer, just regular damage. It's a side note of the "lethal damage doesn't destroy things" which was that funny article was about. The ability is indeed irrelevant against deathtouch. But it's definitely not accurate, I guess it's gone unnoticed being the only card with text anything like that on it.
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Is there a consensus on whether it is 8 or 9 damage?

If not, may we get an [O] response (@Natedogg).

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Dangit, the internet erased my responses Yell

I wasn't talking about deathtouch with regard to Ogre Enforcer, just regular damage. It's a side note of the "lethal damage doesn't destroy things" which was that funny article was about. The ability is indeed irrelevant against deathtouch. But it's definitely not accurate, I guess it's gone unnoticed being the only card with text anything like that on it.



Sorry, I was trying to talk to Zoidberg, not you. Should have been clearer. I agree that the ability is worded inaccurately (probably allowable on an old, obscure card with a unique ability), but it's easily understandable. Everyone understands it even if you try and rules-lawyer it out of existance.

Well, the card uses the phrase "destroyed by lethal damage", even on Oracle. Lethal damage does not destroy creatures. I believe it should say "destroyed due to having lethal damage".


Ogre Enforcer can't be destroyed by lethal damage unless lethal damage dealt by a single source is marked on it.

Oracle text is clear enough: the creature is not destroyed byt the lethal damage rule unless it has been assigned lethal damage by a single source. That is X damage from a single source where X is his toughness or more or 1 damage from a source with deathtouch.

It prevents the rule of lethal damage to by applied to him BUT with an exception.

Lousy template, we must admit, flavourful but lousy. :P



As a minor note, the Enforcer must be dealt lethal damage by a  single source. Being assigned lethal damage is irrelevant. Also, as I noted, lethal damage is always "damage greater or equal than toughness". Deathtouch doesn't destroy the Enforcer because it has assigned lethal damage, but because it's a separate SBA that the Enforcer's ability doesn't interact with.

Is there a consensus on whether it is 8 or 9 damage?

If not, may we get an [O] response (@Natedogg).



I don't think we ever got  a consensus. At least, the last time they officially answered near the beginning of the thread, Rudolf and robvalue both disagreed with me. Anyway, an official answer to sort this out once and for all would be nice.
Rules Nut Advisor
Is there a consensus on whether it is 8 or 9 damage?



No consensus yet: Rudolf and I vote 9, TranscienMaster votes 8, Robvalue seems unsure...

Natedogg required!

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one thousand, people might notice;

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one million, I might get away with it;

If I wish to steal even more and still go unnoticed, I need to make the loot bigger.

 

Now you know why taxes always go up.

 

Looting: ''the plundering of public assets by corrupt or greedy authorities'' (Wikipedia)

704.5h If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and it’s been dealt damage by a source with deathtouch since the last time state-based actions were checked, that creature is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.

So if the creature later that turn stopped being indestructible, the damage wouldn't destroy it.




Eh! that's a very good question!!! Is it so?



If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one thousand, people might notice;

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one million, I might get away with it;

If I wish to steal even more and still go unnoticed, I need to make the loot bigger.

 

Now you know why taxes always go up.

 

Looting: ''the plundering of public assets by corrupt or greedy authorities'' (Wikipedia)

I didn't think it was a question. The rule's pretty explicit.

Deathtouch damage only tries to destroy a creature the first time state-based actions are checked since it was dealt. Otherwise, you couldn't regenerate from deathtouch damage very effectively, since the action would just apply again.
All Generalizations are Bad

I'd like to take the time to congratulate Psyconfuse for the quality of his (her?) question; not often do we get a real Rules question posted!

(95% of questions are like «Tell me what Trample does 'cause I'm too lazy to read even the Basic Rulebook.»)

Nice job Psy!

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one thousand, people might notice;

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one million, I might get away with it;

If I wish to steal even more and still go unnoticed, I need to make the loot bigger.

 

Now you know why taxes always go up.

 

Looting: ''the plundering of public assets by corrupt or greedy authorities'' (Wikipedia)

Deathtouch damage only tries to destroy a creature the first time state-based actions are checked since it was dealt. Otherwise, you couldn't regenerate from deathtouch damage very effectively, since the action would just apply again.



Regeneration REMOVES damage, Deathtouch or not.


Toughness-level damage will destroy an has-been-indestructible, but Deathtouch damage won't?

That seems counter-intuitive to me.

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one thousand, people might notice;

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one million, I might get away with it;

If I wish to steal even more and still go unnoticed, I need to make the loot bigger.

 

Now you know why taxes always go up.

 

Looting: ''the plundering of public assets by corrupt or greedy authorities'' (Wikipedia)

Deathtouch damage only tries to destroy a creature the first time state-based actions are checked since it was dealt. Otherwise, you couldn't regenerate from deathtouch damage very effectively, since the action would just apply again.



Regeneration REMOVES damage, Deathtouch or not.

Sure, but the rule for the state-based action doesn't care whether the damage is still on the creature.

Toughness-level damage will destroy an has-been-indestructible, but Deathtouch damage won't?

That seems counter-intuitive to me.

The deathtouch state-based action seems designed to operate similarly to a triggered ability, in that it only happens once and it happens immediately after the damage is dealt.

Given this, I suspect that the intended functionality of the rules in the OP's situation is to only get 8 damage through.

All Generalizations are Bad
704.5h If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and it’s been dealt damage by a source with deathtouch since the last time state-based actions were checked, that creature is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.

So if the creature later that turn stopped being indestructible, the damage wouldn't destroy it.




Eh! that's a very good question!!! Is it so?

The answer is no, the creature would not be destroyed, any more than a player would lose for failing to draw a card in his or her draw step if their Platinum Angel was destroyed in their Main Phase. The SBA destroyes the creature if it has been dealt damage from a source with Deathtouch since the last time SBAs were checked. If an indestructible creature ceases to be indestructible after the SBA check following the dealing of the damage by the source with Deathtouch, subsequent SBAs don't see it because the damage was dealt before a previous SBA.


On the OPs question, the phrase "lethal damage" has two different definitions, not one.

"Lethal damage" in the context of destroying creatures is "an amount of damage marked on the creature greater than or equal to that creature's toughness.

"Lethal damage" in the context of assigning combat damage is "The toughness of the creature minus damage already marked on the creature minus damage assigned by other creatures during the same combat damage step."

Consider the wording of the rule.
702.2b Any nonzero amount of combat damage assigned to a creature by a source with deathtouch is considered to be lethal damage, regardless of that creature’s toughness. See rules 510.1c–d.

Clearly, that is looking at the action of assigning combat damage and only the action of assigning combat damage. After damage is dealt, if the creature survives the SBA then all the game knows is that the creature has one damage marked on it. The game does not care what properties the source had (and asking players to care opens a huge can of memory problems).

Consequently I'd say 8 damage.
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The only thing I hope we can all agree on is that the rules should be much clearer than they are. A new rule being put in should be totally clear, and us rules-types trying to figure it out isn't a good sign. I am siding with it being 8 now, but I think that's stupid intuitively, and this 'considered' business should be more carefully explained.
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Toughness-level damage will destroy an has-been-indestructible, but Deathtouch damage won't?

That seems counter-intuitive to me.


Personally, I don't think it's any less "intuitive" than that a player will lose if his Platinum Angel is removed while he's at nonpositive life, but will not lose if the Angel is removed after he's failed to draw a card from an empty library.  Or, if you want a deathtouch analogue, will not lose if the Angel is removed sometime after the player was hit by Phage the Untouchable.

Oh, and for the record, I agree that the answer to the OP question is 8.
There's no such thing as "deathtouch damage". The game only looks for creatures that have been dealt damage by a source with deathtouch since the last time State based actions were checked.

Since SBA are checked before any player received priority, deathtouch only works once. If it fails the game doesn't keep trying to rekill that same permanent.

The rules for destroying a creature for having lethal  damage, and the rules for destroying a creature that has been dealt damage by a source with deathtouch are completely differnt and work differently.

If you don't like this, make a thread in Rules theory. This forum is for how the rules are right now, not how they should be.
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Now that I've read answers in this thread more, I'd tend to think 8 too.

Deathtouch is actually two things:
- The first one is that a creature with toughness greater than 0 that's been dealt damage by a source with deathtouch since the last time state-based actions where checked is destroyed as a state-based action.
And it's true, deathtouch doesn't destroy the creature, rules do, just as regular damage doesn't destroy a creature if the amount of damage is greater or equal to the creature's toughness. It's an exception to said rule of the said state-based action.

- The second one is that any non-zero amount of damage ASSIGNED to a creature by a source with deathtouch is considered lethal and is an exception to the assign lethal damage to the first creature inline before assigning damage to the next one. And this one is an exception to the damage assignment when multiple blockers/attackers are involved. Originally this part of deathtouch was an exception to the damage assignment order as a whole and that is what have been changed with M2011 rules.

None of those two exception applies in the OP's situation.

First-strike damage assignment comes in. One damage minimum is assigned to the blocker and the rest on defending player. That's the second exception to deathtouch rule (with the aid of trample's, of course).
The blocker, as it's indestructible, is not destroyed. That's an exception to the first exception of deathtouch (and to the "regular damage equal or greater to toughness" state-based action). BUT damage is still marked on it (because it's not protection).
Non first-strike damage assignment comes in now. And as the blocking creature is still there, still blocking and with a number of damage marked on it smaller than its toughness, 1 damage has to be assigned again, but no more is needed as it's from a creature with deathtouch (exception 2) that assigns its damage on it, and the rest on the defending player (again with the aid of trample).

Magic rules is a game of exceptions and interactions between them (with a coupl of general rules), one has just to think about which apply where and when.

I think we've nailed it but a confirmation of a judge or two will be nice.

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The more I think about it, the more I think the answer is 8, but if the deathtouch-trample interaction was made to make the game more intuitive to noobs I think it shouldn't work as it is and should actually do 9.

1) the damage is assigned from a source with deathtouch as is deemed lethal for assignment in the first step.
2) the blocker lives through the deathtouch SBA in the first damage step
3) in the second combat damage step, the blocker has 1 damage marked on it (which came from a source with deathtouch), is it still considered lethally damaged for assignment purposes? I'd say no, so they'd have to assign another point.

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The more I think about it, the more I think the answer is 8, but if the deathtouch-trample interaction was made to make the game more intuitive to noobs I think it shouldn't work as it is and should actually do 9.

1) the damage is assigned from a source with deathtouch as is deemed lethal for assignment in the first step.
2) the blocker lives through the deathtouch SBA in the first damage step
3) in the second combat damage step, the blocker has 1 damage marked on it (which came from a source with deathtouch), is it still considered lethally damaged for assignment purposes? I'd say no, so they'd have to assign another point.


Let's put it this way "any amount of non-zero combat damage assigned or dealt by a source with deathtouch is considered lethal".

Small change but I think it'll work nicely. Anyone seeing a flaw in this proposition? Problem is not trample or deathtouch, here it indestructible that's the problem.

With protection it's simple, the damage is prevented but still assigned. With indestructability, it's assigned, dealt and only removed during cleanup.

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