## Charging and teleport

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jaelis
Joined Apr 2004
4755 Posts
Per a discussion in the Q&A thread, can someone explain why you can't use Fey Charge to teleport to the opposite side of your target as part of a charge attack?  It's not clear to me why that would violate the charge rules, since each square you move still takes you closer to the target.

Fey Charge
Benefit: When you charge, you can expend your fey step racial power as a free action to replace up to 5 squares of your charge movement with teleportation.

------------------------------- Edit:

In case you don't want to read the whole thread, here's my effort at a summary of the various interpretations.

For teleporting charges in general:

Option 1:  When you teleport, you only actually "move" one square, since you exit one square and enter another.  Because charging requires you to move at least two squares, you can't teleport at all as part of a charge (unless you have a special ability like Fey Charge).

Option 2:  When you teleport you move a number of squares given by the distance travelled, but you need to count out those squares to actually determine that distance.  As you count out those squares, you are using up your movement allowance (or "squares of movement") for the teleport.  The charge rules require that each square of movement you expend must bring you closer to the target.  If you try to teleport to the opposite side of the target, you will necessarily spend some squares of movement that don't bring you closer to the target, so it is not allowed.

Option 3:  When you teleport you do move multiple squares, but you do not in any sense pass through the intervening squares.  Charging only requires that the actual squares you enter bring you closer to the target, so as long as your destination square is closer to the target than your initial square, you can charge to the opposite side.

I have some reservations about Option 1, myself, but Options 2 and 3 seem like pretty legitimate interpretations.  Customer Service supported the conclusion of Option 2 (without suggesting that they had spent a lot of time thinking about it).

Even if you go with Option 3 in general, there is still an argument that Fey Charge in particular does not allow you to charge to the opposite side:  Fey Charge says you can "replace" squares of movement with teleportation.  This implies that you must determine a legal path for your charge prior to the replacement, so that there is something to replace.  Since a non-teleporting charge can't end at the opposite side, there's no way for the replacement to allow it.  Customer Service supports this interpretation as well.

(In contrast, you could interpret "replace" to simply mean that you can teleport as part of the charge instead of moving normally, and then you can follow whatever you think is the general charge rule.)

---- Cust Serv responses:

Hello,
I'm not sure how the charge rules and the teleport rules  should interact.   Can a creature with a teleport speed (like a pit  fiend) use teleportation to charge to the opposite side of a target?  If  it helps, a diagram of what I'm thinking is (with F = pit fiend, C =  character being charged, . = empty):
before teleport:  F....C.
after  teleport: .....CF
Under the original charge rules this was  pretty clearly not allowed, but I'm not sure about the updated rules.   Thanks for any advice you can give.

Great question,
When something has Teleport in its speed  characteristic it can teleport for it's charge however it still has to  follow all the normal charge rules. So it is unable to end its charge on  the opposite side of the charged target.
Chase

------

we have been having a LONG and drawn out debate on fey charge in regards  to ....

1 - the new charge rules
2 - the new movement rules
3 -  the new teleportation rules

feat :Benefit: When you charge, you  can expend your fey step racial power as a free action to replace up to 5  squares of your charge movement with teleportation.

now we have  had several concepts on how this plays out. it seems to many that the  word "replace" is a crucial key here

example one ... you are 4  squares away from your target forcing you to move 3 squares on the  charge.using fey charge you teleport one square at a time for a total of  3 seperate teleports to land adjacent to the target.

example two  ... you have a movement speed of 6 and decide to replace 4 of these 6 squares of  movement with a teleport effectively giving you a combined  move2/teleport4. so you move 1 square , then teleport 4 squares , then  move 1 square

the key to these 2 concepts is in the moving closer  to the target description in the charge rules. in example 1 , each  single square of teleportation is checked for distance/direction. in  example 2 you compare the place you left the teleport 4 witht eh place  you land the teleport 4 and the landing must be closer to the target  then the launch point.

so? thoughts?

Hello. The Fey Charge feat allows you to replace up to five squares of  movement with teleportation. Therefore you will plot your course as  usual for a charge then you will be able to replace up to five squares  of the charge path with teleportation movement.

Istaran
Joined Sep 2006
3410 Posts
I am not 100% on this, but I will take a stab at it:
Fey Charge allows you to specifically replace 5 squares of your charge movement with teleportation. If your charge movement would not normally allow you to reach a square on the far side of your adversary, this teleporting movement cannot either.

Basically:
step 1: chart out your proposed movement as per the normal charge rules.
Step 2: specify up to 5 squares of -that movement course- to be teleportation in place of normal movement.
step 3: process the action (and any interrupts/reactions).

However, it seems clear that the teleportation segment should be subject to normal teleportation restrictions (must see destination, cannot be under an effect that prevents teleportation) but should not be subject to restrictions that teleportation normally bypasses (can travel vertically or over open gaps or through transparent solid objects without hinderance or skill checks, can travel even if immobilized or restrained).
That gives you some leeway to argue, I suppose.
arakis
Joined Jul 2008
615 Posts
You can't teleport behind it.

Teleport is still a movement mode and charge explicitally say that Each square of movement must bring the creature closer to the target.
Actually Play'ng: Nothing. My old party is full of short-sighted racists and sexists (on their own admission), so I left.
jaelis
Joined Apr 2004
4755 Posts
I am not 100% on this, but I will take a stab at it:
Fey Charge allows you to specifically replace 5 squares of your charge movement with teleportation. If your charge movement would not normally allow you to reach a square on the far side of your adversary, this teleporting movement cannot either.

Basically:
step 1: chart out your proposed movement as per the normal charge rules.
Step 2: specify up to 5 squares of -that movement course- to be teleportation in place of normal movement.
step 3: process the action (and any interrupts/reactions).

However, it seems clear that the teleportation segment should be subject to normal teleportation restrictions (must see destination, cannot be under an effect that prevents teleportation) but should not be subject to restrictions that teleportation normally bypasses (can travel vertically or over open gaps or through transparent solid objects without hinderance or skill checks, can travel even if immobilized or restrained).
That gives you some leeway to argue, I suppose.

I can understand this reasoning, but doesn't it mean that if there in an obstacle in the way, say a wall of force, then you can't use Fey Charge, because you couldn't chart out your proposed movement per the normal rules first?

You can't teleport behind it.

Teleport is still a movement mode and charge explicitally say that Each square of movement must bring the creature closer to the target.

This I don't understand.  Which square of movement is not bringing me closer to the target?
abbii
Joined Apr 2010
20 Posts
Teleporting itself does not count as moving over any squares inbetween the 2 teleport distances. But Fey Charge is a Charge in the first place and a teleport after that.
That means you should specify your charge first (which has to be to the nearest square adjacent to the target) and then replace part of that charge with a teleport.

But as a similar case: Would Fey Charge allow you to charge over a pit?
jaelis
Joined Apr 2004
4755 Posts
Teleporting itself does not count as moving over any squares inbetween the 2 teleport distances. But Fey Charge is a Charge in the first place and a teleport after that.
That means you should specify your charge first (which has to be to the nearest square adjacent to the target) and then replace part of that charge with a teleport.

But as a similar case: Would Fey Charge allow you to charge over a pit?

So you would indeed say that you can't Fey Charge through a wall of force?

I thought about the pit, but I figured that since you could in principle jump over it, you can still plot a legal charge over it.
jaelis
Joined Apr 2004
4755 Posts
You can't teleport behind it.

Teleport is still a movement mode and charge explicitally say that Each square of movement must bring the creature closer to the target.

Actually maybe I can understand that you are saying that when you teleport, you actually do move through all the intervening squares between where you are and where you're going.  Sort like you become a very fast ghost.

In this reasoning then, Fey Charge is irrelevant; even if I had a teleportation movement mode, I couldn't use it to charge to a square behind the target.

On the other hand, the wall of force would be no obstacle.

Is this basically what you're saying?
Joined Mar 2007
381 Posts
you jsut need the roundabout charge feat and your all good. then feycharge will do what you  want
jaelis
Joined Apr 2004
4755 Posts
Mostly I just want to understand the argument being made.  I'm not particularly attached to charging that way.
Tichrimo
Joined Feb 2006
2198 Posts
The way I think of it is you make a regular charge following all the normal rules, except during the movement portion you can ignore any terrain/obstacles that a teleport could bypass.

Returned from hiatus; getting up to speed on 5e rules lawyering.

jaelis
Joined Apr 2004
4755 Posts
The way I think of it is you make a regular charge following all the normal rules, except during the movement portion you can ignore any terrain/obstacles that a teleport could bypass.

That does sound like the "very fast ghost" model.  Do you see that as specific to the way Fey Charge works, or as a general principle of teleporting?  I guess that is maybe a basic question I'd like to understand.

I guess I can understand it as being specific to the "replace movement" part of the feat; I would take some convincing to believe that teleportation works that way in general.

In practice, the difference would be whether, say, a dimensional marauder could use teleportation to charge to the opposite side of a target.

(Also, would it work if you used Arcane Gate?  Is that relevant?)
Tichrimo
Joined Feb 2006
2198 Posts
The way I think of it is you make a regular charge following all the normal rules, except during the movement portion you can ignore any terrain/obstacles that a teleport could bypass.

That does sound like the "very fast ghost" model.  Do you see that as specific to the way Fey Charge works, or as a general principle of teleporting?  I guess that is maybe a basic question I'd like to understand.

I guess I can understand it as being specific to the "replace movement" part of the feat; I would take some convincing to believe that teleportation works that way in general.

In practice, the difference would be whether, say, a dimensional marauder could use teleportation to charge to the opposite side of a target.

Definitely, as you say, specific to the "replace movement" part of the feat.

Returned from hiatus; getting up to speed on 5e rules lawyering.

jaelis
Joined Apr 2004
4755 Posts
So the marauder would work fine?  Is that the general consensus? From what ankiyavon wrote in the Q&A thread, I'm not sure he would agree.
Joined Mar 2007
381 Posts
i need to put in 2 coppers and make a few corrections here ....

Action: Standard action. When a creature takes this action, it chooses a target. Determine the distance between the creature and the target, even counting through squares of blocking terrain, and then follow these steps.
1.    Move: The creature moves up to its speed toward the target. Each square of movement must bring the creature closer to the target, and the creature must end the move at least 2 squares away from its start-ing position.
2.    Attack: The creature either makes a melee basic attack against the target or uses bull rush against it. The creature gains a +1 bonus to the attack roll.
3.    No Further Actions: The creature can’t take any further actions during this turn, except free actions.

fey charge:Benefit: When you charge, you can expend your fey step racial power as a free action to replace up to 5 squares of your charge movement with teleportation.

so step by step ...
1- choose target
2- determine distance
3- move (this is defined as a square by square movement) each squaqre must be close then the last to the target.
4- make attack ...

as i see it if your 2 squares from the target , aka not adjacent , athen you could move next to the square on the opposite side of the target (moving from2 squares away to 1 square away). now this would cost you as i see it 3 squares worth of your move since every square teleported through counts as a cost to your movement allowance.
jaelis
Joined Apr 2004
4755 Posts
daladinn, I would tend to read it that way too, but I'd like to be sure I understand the counterargument before I make up my mind.  So far, I can see the reasoning that "replacing" movement with a teleport is more restrictive than simply moving via teleport.  If you are replacing movement, then there must be an initial movement to be replaced, and there is no legal initial movement that would let you move to the opposite side of the target.

I'm a little fuzzier on why the same objection wouldn't apply to going through an obstacle though.
blastarr
Joined Sep 2007
268 Posts
Repost from Rules Q&A FAQ + ask a simple question:

Except, as of the newest update, it says nothing of a path.  You count the distance, even through blocking terrain.  Then you move up to your speed with each square of movement being closer to the target and ending a minimum of two squares from their starting square:

CHARGE A TARGET

Action: Standard action. When a creature takes this action, it chooses a target. Determine the distance between the creature and the target, even counting through squares of blocking terrain, and then follow these steps.
1.    Move: The creature moves up to its speed toward the target. Each square of movement must bring the creature closer to the target, and the creature must end the move at least 2 squares away from its start-ing position.
2.    Attack: The creature either makes a melee basic attack against the target or uses bull rush against it. The creature gains a +1 bonus to the attack roll.
3.    No Further Actions: The creature can’t take any further actions during this turn, except free actions.

Fey Step allows you to "replace up to 5 squares of your charge movement with teleportation".  I read this as simply replacing every instance of "move" in step one with "teleport" (so long as the amount does not exceed speed or 5, whichever is lower).  As illustrated in PH3 p218 Teleportation is instantaneous, you pick a destination square and arrive there -- you never occupy or enter intervening squares, even for a split second, even to figure out some "path" to get there.  You pick a square within your "range" and simultaneously pop out of where you are to arrive in that square.

TLDR: There is no actual path being measured or plotted at any time during a charge, just distance, and a teleport to the other side of a target that you are not already adjacent to (thus you are moving closer) and ends with you at least 2 squares from your starting position does literally fulfill every requirement for a Charge action.

Addition for this thread:  I can see what you're saying about doing the entire Charge action first and then adding in the Teleport/Move replacement afterwards but I wouldn't interpret it that way.  The wording of Fey Step does allow both interpretations as it does not give a specific time when you replace those squares.  Nevertheless, even if it's an after the fact replacement, teleporting from one square to another does not cause you to occupy any of the intervening squares.  So as long as your destination square is closer to the target than the origin square I'd say you're still moving closer, no matter which side of the target each of those squares is on.
"Besides, pushing someone over a pit is still entirely 2D... it just becomes 3D rather quickly afterwards." ~ yesnomu "Mind you, that doesn't change the fact that the poor str-priest is cowering in the corner wondering what horrible thing it was that he did that makes daddy keep hitting him so much, but it's not like the nerf was senseless." ~ SanityFaerie
XaviYago
Joined Jul 2007
1 Post
To make the Charge, you still need to measure the least distance from your square to the target square. Per the new rules:

This change clarifies that when you are moving as part of a charge, every square of movement must reduce the distance between you and the target, including the distance you count through blocking terrain.

When you measure the distance for your Charge, you measure directly from your square to the object square, even going through blocking terrain such as corners. You can definitely charge through a Wall of Force, as teleportation only needs Line of Sight, not Line of Effect.

jaelis
Joined Apr 2004
4755 Posts
To make the Charge, you still need to measure the least distance from your square to the target square. Per the new rules:

This change clarifies that when you are moving as part of a charge, every square of movement must reduce the distance between you and the target, including the distance you count through blocking terrain.

When you measure the distance for your Charge, you measure directly from your square to the object square, even going through blocking terrain such as corners. You can definitely charge through a Wall of Force, as teleportation only needs Line of Sight, not Line of Effect.

But if reducing the distance is all you care about, why couldn't you teleport to behind the target?  The only argument against that which I understand so far is that the teleport has to replace normal movement.
blastarr
Joined Sep 2007
268 Posts
To make the Charge, you still need to measure the least distance from your square to the target square. Per the new rules:

This change clarifies that when you are moving as part of a charge, every square of movement must reduce the distance between you and the target, including the distance you count through blocking terrain.

When you measure the distance for your Charge, you measure directly from your square to the object square, even going through blocking terrain such as corners. You can definitely charge through a Wall of Force, as teleportation only needs Line of Sight, not Line of Effect.

As stated, Teleport is not Move.  Fey Charge replaces Move with Teleport.  Teleport is square-to-square, no intervening squares are ever occupied or checked.  If I were to Teleport a character I would lift the miniature off the board, consider the situation, and then place it back down wherever it can fit and that is within the distance the Teleport effect allows me to as well as my original square's Line of Sight.  There is no line relevant other than, as you said, Line of Sight.  There is no path of travel mentioned in Charge, only distance, and there is no path relevant to Teleportation effects.

"Every square of movement" is only relevant to one square, the destination square of the Teleport, as you never "move" through intervening squares.  This is also how you avoid the obstacles and terrain in those squares; those squares are never occupied by the character.
"Besides, pushing someone over a pit is still entirely 2D... it just becomes 3D rather quickly afterwards." ~ yesnomu "Mind you, that doesn't change the fact that the poor str-priest is cowering in the corner wondering what horrible thing it was that he did that makes daddy keep hitting him so much, but it's not like the nerf was senseless." ~ SanityFaerie
LordOfWeasels
Joined Apr 2009
7919 Posts
There is no path of travel mentioned in Charge, only distance, and there is no path relevant to Teleportation effects.

Except that Fey Charge specifically says "replace squares of charge movement with teleportation".

Meaning you need to define your Charge path (ignoring Blocking Terrain, as per Charge), and then use Fey Charge to replace that blocking-terrain-ignoring Movement with teleportation.

"Every square of movement" is only relevant to one square, the destination square of the Teleport, as you never "move" through intervening squares.  This is also how you avoid the obstacles and terrain in those squares; those squares are never occupied by the character.

And teleporting to the far side of a target involves at least two squares of teleport distance that are NOT each taking you closer to the target, and thus they are not legal squares of teleport distance during a charge.

This is not complicated.  Fey Charge doesn't say you CAN ignore the restrictions on Charge movement, therefore you can't.
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jaelis
Joined Apr 2004
4755 Posts

Except that Fey Charge specifically says "replace squares of charge movement with teleportation".

Meaning you need to define your Charge path (ignoring Blocking Terrain, as per Charge), and then use Fey Charge to replace that blocking-terrain-ignoring Movement with teleportation.

I can somewhat accept this, except that I wouldn't have said the standard charge rules require you to define your charge path.  They just tell you to measure the distance and move one step at a time, making sure the distance keeps decreasing.  That said, I'll buy that the specific wording of Fey Charge may require you to define your path first.

And teleporting to the far side of a target involves at least two squares of teleport distance that are NOT each taking you closer to the target, and thus they are not legal squares of teleport distance during a charge.

This I have trouble with.  There are no "two squares of teleport distance that are NOT each taking you closer to the target," and if that is the essence of the argument, then I'll simply disagree.  I don't think that's how teleporting works.

This is not complicated.  Fey Charge doesn't say you CAN ignore the restrictions on Charge movement, therefore you can't.

Charging, in and of itself, doesn't have the restrictions that you seem to be implying.  What is your opinion about a charging Dimensional Marauder... can it teleport to the opposite side of the target?

ankiyavon
Joined Dec 2009
4794 Posts
The insistence that teleportation requires no path is silly.

Teleportation has a distance.  If you had a teleport speed of 6, this means you can teleport up to 6 squares.  You plot out your path exactly as if you would have moved through it.  You simply ignore all obstacles, so you always teleport in a straight line.

But that doesn't mean that you didn't plot out a path, because the game breaks in roughly a million different ways when you ignore the fact that teleportation is movement.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
jaelis
Joined Apr 2004
4755 Posts

Teleportation has a distance.  If you had a teleport speed of 6, this means you can teleport up to 6 squares.  You plot out your path exactly as if you would have moved through it.  You simply ignore all obstacles, so you always teleport in a straight line.

I guess that I fail to see any evidence for this in the rules, and if anything, to me the wording seems to imply the opposite.

But that doesn't mean that you didn't plot out a path, because the game breaks in roughly a million different ways when you ignore the fact that teleportation is movement.

I would not claim that teleportation is not movement.  It is specifically called out as movement in PHB3.  But I don't see how the fact that teleportation is movement implies that it is continuous movement through adjacent squares.

Edit - surely no one would let a character set off a trap that is triggered by a creature entering a square when the creature "teleports through" that square?  If that is true, then in what sense are you ever in that square?
LordOfWeasels
Joined Apr 2009
7919 Posts

Teleportation has a distance.  If you had a teleport speed of 6, this means you can teleport up to 6 squares.  You plot out your path exactly as if you would have moved through it.  You simply ignore all obstacles, so you always teleport in a straight line.

I guess that I fail to see any evidence for this in the rules, and if anything, to me the wording seems to imply the opposite.

You don't think Teleportation has a "distance"?  Teleportation requires LoS - you don't think you measure *that* in advance, either?

But I don't see how the fact that teleportation is movement implies that it is continuous movement through adjacent squares.

Edit - surely no one would let a character set off a trap that is triggered by a creature entering a square when the creature "teleports through" that square?  If that is true, then in what sense are you ever in that square?

It doesn't have to be "continuous movement through adjacent squares", and no, you're never in those intermediate squares.

But if you are 3 squares from your Charge target, you must move first to a distance of 2, then to a distance of 1, and then stop.  With Fey Charge, you can replace any or all of these with Teleportation - but you CANNOT move to another square with a distance of 1, then a third "distance 1" square, for a total Charge distance of 4 (distance from target:  2, 1, 1, 1) and then replace THAT move with teleportation, because you have broken the rules of Charging.

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Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
jaelis
Joined Apr 2004
4755 Posts

Teleportation has a distance.  If you had a teleport speed of 6, this means you can teleport up to 6 squares.  You plot out your path exactly as if you would have moved through it.  You simply ignore all obstacles, so you always teleport in a straight line.

I guess that I fail to see any evidence for this in the rules, and if anything, to me the wording seems to imply the opposite.

You don't think Teleportation has a "distance"?  Teleportation requires LoS - you don't think you measure *that* in advance, either?

I do think teleportation has a distance, but I don't see the relevance here.

It doesn't have to be "continuous movement through adjacent squares", and no, you're never in those intermediate squares.

OK, then we are more or less on the same page, and this should make more sense.

But if you are 3 squares from your Charge target, you must move first to a distance of 2, then to a distance of 1, and then stop.  With Fey Charge, you can replace any or all of these with Teleportation - but you CANNOT move to another square with a distance of 1, then a third "distance 1" square, for a total Charge distance of 4 (distance from target:  2, 1, 1, 1) and then replace THAT move with teleportation, because you have broken the rules of Charging.

I would have said that I am moving from a square with a distance of 3 directly to a square with a distance of 1.  As you said just above, I am not passing through any intermediate squares.  Why is this not how you see it?

And does how you see this depend on if you are Fey Charging, or is it the same for plain teleportation movement?
mplindustries
Joined Apr 2006
3797 Posts
I actually totally see what Jaelis is talking about here.  When you teleport, it has a distance that you measure by square, of course.  But you never move into the intervening squares.  If you start in square X and teleport 5 squares to Square X+5, your move is directly from Square X to Square X+5, and you never move into Square X+1, X+2, X+3, or X+4.

I don't see how teleporting to the opposite side of a target would be a problem here.  When you replace 5 squares of your charge movement with teleporting, your charging Speed goes from being Speed 6 to Speed 1 and Teleport 5.

I absolutely understand why it shouldn't work this way, and why it's best if it doesn't.  But I don't think the argument against it is very grounded in rules.

It really appears that someone with Fey Charge could start 1 square away from an enemy and teleport to the opposite side of them as their charge (since the movement would be from a square one away from the target to a square adjacent to the target), and you would end at least 2 squares from your original position.
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jaelis
Joined Apr 2004
4755 Posts

It really appears that someone with Fey Charge could start 1 square away from an enemy and teleport to the opposite side of them as their charge (since the movement would be from a square one away from the target to a square adjacent to the target), and you would end at least 2 squares from your original position.

(n/m, I need to read better.  I'd have probably said one square away was adjacent, but you mean there is one square between you and the target.)

But I'm glad you see what I'm saying in general.
ankiyavon
Joined Dec 2009
4794 Posts
I don't think that you enter each intervening squqre.  I think the rules are pretty clear that you do not enter the intervening squares.

But determing which squares ARE the intervening squares is mandatory.  The game simiply does not work if you don't count your movement in squares.  These are the squares that you would have entered.

An example.

ABBBBBC

You have a teleport speed of 6.  You teleport from A to C.  In order to determine that C is in range, you create a path (moving along the B's).  You do not enter the B squares, but if you had not teleported, you would have entered them.

That means that a creature with a teleport speed who makes a charge attack, if there were a creature in the last B square, could not teleport to C and make his attack.  Plotting the movement is something you do in the game.  If you don't do it, every teleport in the game (with a distance longer than one square) stops working, because you end up having to teleport one square at a time, unless you count distance (which, in the case of teleporting, distance is the same as path, unless you're charging or something).

You won't find it written down anywhere, and especially not in my words, but you also won't find 'how to read a d4' written down anywhere.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
jaelis
Joined Apr 2004
4755 Posts
That is helpful.  We agree that you have to count squares to see how far you can teleport.  And we agree that you don't actually enter the squares that you count through.

You, however, claim that the squares you count through should be considered as "squares of movement" in the rule:  Each square of movement must bring the creature closer to the target.

I'm not aware of any specific definition of "square of movement," so I don't know that I can say that you are wrong or right in this.   Personally, I would define square of movement (in this context) as "a square you move into."  Is there a clear reason to say this is wrong?
Joined Mar 2007
381 Posts
the way we have been working it out ....

if i decide to charge a guy and thier is 3 squares between us ( so far completely legal)

C123M

lets call space 3 as M+1 in this case ... as long as i move to M+3 then M+2 then M+1 , all is good

now i throw in fey charge.

my actual movement is 5 soo ..
1- C to M+3 = 1 .. down to 4 now
2- M+3 to M+2 = 1 .. down to 3 now
3- M+2 to M+1 (other side of M so i am now at S123MC) , cost 3  .... down to 0

which of this other then the "replacing squares" is hard? i know it debateable i used my 5 points of movement , every move brought me 1 square closer to the target
LordOfWeasels
Joined Apr 2009
7919 Posts

But if you are 3 squares from your Charge target, you must move first to a distance of 2, then to a distance of 1, and then stop.  With Fey Charge, you can replace any or all of these with Teleportation - but you CANNOT move to another square with a distance of 1, then a third "distance 1" square, for a total Charge distance of 4 (distance from target:  2, 1, 1, 1) and then replace THAT move with teleportation, because you have broken the rules of Charging.

I would have said that I am moving from a square with a distance of 3 directly to a square with a distance of 1.  As you said just above, I am not passing through any intermediate squares.  Why is this not how you see it?

You cannot "charge 4 squares" to a target who is three squares away from you.
Therefore, you cannot replace 4 squares of charge movement with teleportation when you are charging someone three squares away from you.

And does how you see this depend on if you are Fey Charging, or is it the same for plain teleportation movement?

Just plain teleportation movement does not have any restriction requiring all your steps be closer, nor is plain teleportation "replacing squares of normal movement" the way Fey Charge is replacing squares of charge movement.

The restrictions here come from *CHARGING*, not teleportation.  Fey Charge doesn't SAY you can break the rules of charging, therefore you cannot.
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LordOfWeasels
Joined Apr 2009
7919 Posts
That is helpful.  We agree that you have to count squares to see how far you can teleport.  And we agree that you don't actually enter the squares that you count through.

You, however, claim that the squares you count through should be considered as "squares of movement" in the rule:  Each square of movement must bring the creature closer to the target.

I'm not aware of any specific definition of "square of movement," so I don't know that I can say that you are wrong or right in this.   Personally, I would define square of movement (in this context) as "a square you move into."  Is there a clear reason to say this is wrong?

No, *but* you've just made my point for me:  Fey Charge does not let you use Fey Step and make a Charge attack at the end of it.  Fey Charge lets you replace squares of charge movement with a teleport move.  (Technically, more than one teleport move is possible, but I'm going to ignore that for a moment)

The teleport move doesn't enter the intervening squares and does ignore the intervening terrain.
But it doesn't change the requirement of defining your "steps", where each step takes you closer to the target, before replacing those steps with a teleport.

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thenative
Joined Sep 2009
287 Posts
This is honestly a topic that needs to be addressed by errata.

It is definitely logical to read this as though each square that you teleport through must meet the criteria of the charge (ie: must be closer to the target).  While on the other hand, the reading that so long as the teleport as a whole moves you closer to the target, you are fine, as by the rules of teleport, you never for even a moment are in said squares that you bypass.  Both are logical and both are RAW readings.

To explain, the first reading makes sense because the text states "replace up to 5 squares of your charge movement with teleportation".  You are not actually "Fey Stepping", but rather simply expending the Fey Step.  Thus, each square that you teleport through, must meet the normal charge criteria (PH 287 "The creature moves up to its speed toward the target. Each square of movement must bring the creature closer to the target.") -- the limitation.

On the other hand, you can read the line, "replace up to 5 squares of your charge movement with teleportation" to state that you can teleport a certain range, using up squares that you would otherwise be limited to your normal movement mode, and then the normal movement that remains, comes into effect to complete the charge.  Thus, you are expending squares of movement, but as teleports count only as a single movement, (PH 286 "When you teleport, you disappear from the space you occupy and immediately appear in a new space you choose."), you only need for the end result of your teleport to be closer to the enemy than your original position.  Here the limitation is that no matter how modified your teleportations may be, you can only teleport 5.

Right now, this argument cannot be fully addressed as we do not have the textual information, nor from my understanding, even a RAI to fall upon.  It is a case where DM fiat rules until it is addressed.

-TheNative
jaelis
Joined Apr 2004
4755 Posts
There's also probably some disagreement still about what "steps" means in the charge rules.  When they first came out, I recall a debate about whether "follow these steps" meant the squares you measured out the distance with, or the next few sentences of rules text.  In the compendium the formatting was adjusted to make it (in my mind) clearer that "steps" referred to the following rules.  But perhaps not everyone agrees, and is basing some of their argument on that.
mplindustries
Joined Apr 2006
3797 Posts
The restrictions here come from *CHARGING*, not teleportation.  Fey Charge doesn't SAY you can break the rules of charging, therefore you cannot.

I understand this, except, my contention on this would be that it does in fact say you can break the rules of charging, because it lets you teleport during a charge, and it's the very nature of teleporting that breaks the rules.

When you teleport, you don't cross the intervening distance, so every single step of the teleport is bringing you closer, as there is only a single step to a teleport (unlike other movement, which is explicitly broken up and handled one square at a time).  The only way you would be right is if you were saying (and could prove) that replacing 5 squares of your charging movement with teleport was actually 5 different teleports of 1 square each, rather than a single teleport of up to 5 squares.

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LordOfWeasels
Joined Apr 2009
7919 Posts
The restrictions here come from *CHARGING*, not teleportation.  Fey Charge doesn't SAY you can break the rules of charging, therefore you cannot.

I understand this, except, my contention on this would be that it does in fact say you can break the rules of charging, because it lets you teleport during a charge, and it's the very nature of teleporting that breaks the rules.

You could argue this, but you would be wrong.

Fey Charge says "replace squares of charge movement with teleportation".

It does NOT say "teleport X squares and then make a Charge attack."
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LordOfWeasels
Joined Apr 2009
7919 Posts
The restrictions here come from *CHARGING*, not teleportation.  Fey Charge doesn't SAY you can break the rules of charging, therefore you cannot.

I understand this, except, my contention on this would be that it does in fact say you can break the rules of charging, because it lets you teleport during a charge, and it's the very nature of teleporting that breaks the rules

It does NOT say you can "teleport then charge".   It says you can replace charge movement with teleportation.

There is NO way to interpret this to allow illegal charge movements.  The only possible interpretation is "legal charge movement, but teleported."
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LordOfWeasels
Joined Apr 2009
7919 Posts
You could argue this, but you would be wrong.

Fey Charge says "replace squares of charge movement with teleportation".

It does NOT say "teleport X squares and then make a Charge attack."

So, you're saying it is 5 separate 1 square teleports?  I'm not following how this is a rebuttal.

Are you being deliberately obtuse, or is it natural?

The feat says "replace up to 5 squares of your charge movement with teleportation."

How does this, at all, change the requirements of charge movement?
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artoomis
Joined Jul 2003
1754 Posts
One way to look at it (which I think captures the intent and maybe even the letter of the rules is):

If you teleport, the square you end up in must be one of those that would count as being closer to the target as if you had actually moved through all the intervening squares.

This only becomes significant when choosing which adjacent square (or farther away with reach) you end up in.
mplindustries
Joined Apr 2006
3797 Posts
There is NO way to interpret this to allow illegal charge movements.  The only possible interpretation is "legal charge movement, but teleported."

But that's just the thing.  "Legal charge movement" depends entirely on the movement used.  If you were to jump during the movement, you could charge over a chasm.  That charge would be illegal if you didn't jump.  You can only charge a creature flying above you if you also fly.  Without that movement mode, the charge would be illegal.

With Fey Charge, some of your movement is teleporting.  How come an otherwise illegal charge can become legal if I jump or fly, but it can't if I teleport?

One way to look at it (which I think captures the intent and maybe even the letter of the rules is):

If you teleport, the square you end up in must be one of those that would count as being closer to the target as if you had actually moved through all the intervening squares.

This only becomes significant when choosing which adjacent square (or farther away with reach) you end up in.

Well, of course that's the intent.  But I don't think there's rules support for that.

Don't worry, this is just an interesting and friendly debate for the sake of debating.  It's not like I'd ever actually run Fey Charge as working like this.
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jaelis
Joined Apr 2004
4755 Posts