389 - Class Acts: Monk

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As expected from WotC, the article will be up in twelve hours when WotC HQ in Seattle opens.
Oh Content, where art thou?
I really wish this'd stop. Can't someone double check that the next day's articles are up properly?
Wizards, someone in your office needs a good talking to.  This is your JOB.  Can't you do it right?
Children, BEHAVE! Just because something isn't up the second it hits a due date siomewhere in the world does not make it late

Several of the movement techniques are used during someone else's turn (interrupts). How does that affect the use of the encounter power? If I use Two Falling Feathers attack, then will the movement technique be available for use until the start of my next turn? Or what about using the movement technique first, must I use the attack during my next turn or is it wasted? I guess the same can be said about the free action movement techniques when they aren't used on my turn.

The level 12 paragon encounter utility is nice (shift twice your speed), and the paragon path itself lets you add 1 to that. I can see shift 25 as a move action in epic levels.


Several of the movement techniques are used during someone else's turn (interrupts). How does that affect the use of the encounter power? If I use Two Falling Feathers attack, then will the movement technique be available for use until the start of my next turn? Or what about using the movement technique first, must I use the attack during my next turn or is it wasted? I guess the same can be said about the free action movement techniques when they aren't used on my turn.



My understanding of the rules on p.217 is that the monk's Full Discipline Movement techniques and attacks are linked, and you can only use one such set per round. Only you used e.g. a Full Discipline attack on your turn and it is still the same round, you cannot use a movement technique from a different Full Discipline until the start of the next round.
So it is important to look at your position in the initiative order.

- If you acted in that round already and used a Full Discipline action, you can only use that discipline's techniques (or a regular move/attack etc) until the end of teh round.

- If you have used no Full Discipline technique the running round, you are free to use any Full discipline free action or Immediate Interrupt during your opponents turn, if the trigger occurs. If you do, you are then commeitted to that discipline (or basic attacks/moves etc) on your turn.

In short: New round, new choice.

What I still have problems understanding is:

The Fallen Needle Move technique is an Immediate Interrupt shift 2 triggered by an Opponent ENDING their move adjacent. What does that mean?

When an opponent (melee only, reach 1) with speed 6 moves three squares to a square next to me and strikes me, I can shift 2 squares away. But can I then no longer be attacked by him? Or can he simply continue his move for two of his remaining three squares and then attack me in the same turn?

My problem is the immediate interrupt, which implies that the interrupting action happens before the trigger. A wizard's shield power activates on a hit, but the shield is there before the hit and turns it into a miss. An interrupt invalidates the trigger, or retcons it, so to speak.

If my shift 2 now happens before the opponent ends his move, he hasn't ended his move and could decide to move on and hit me despite my shift. This would of course make the technique less useful then otherwise, when it would be very powerful indeed.

So: The enemy moves adjacent and hits, I shift away. Am I safe from him, or only if he has not enough movement left?
The article is up:

DnDi_Large.png   Dragon 389
Class Acts: Monks
Fallen Needle Itinerants

By Peter Schaefer

For travelling monks, this article provides new powers (including a new at-will, the Fallen Needle discipline) and a new paragon path, the Fallen Needle Itinerant. 

Fat Aloisus teaches any he meets who have the skill and the will to learn. In like manner, those he teaches are instructed to pass on his training to those whom they meet. Whether they wander for love of maps and food, a search for truth, a lust for treasure or adventure, or a noble quest, their wandering is aided by the lessons they learn from other travelers.

Talk about his article here.
389-ca-monks.jpg

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

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A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

LOL @ the lame halos they keep putting on everything with "psionic" attached to it.  It just looks silly.
LOL @ the lame halos they keep putting on everything with "psionic" attached to it.  It just looks silly.



It doesn't bother me with actual Psions and such, but it absolutely cripples what would have been a brilliant picture of a monk. Everything else about this article is great, but that halo really, really bugs me.

I like the powers and the theme. Took a few minutes to ponder how out-of-turn movement disciplines worked, but seemed to make sense once I took a close look at the full discipline rules. I am a little bugged by the movement technique of the at-will power. It is a very strangely worded interrupt, and potentially a bit too powerful, in my mind. I'd rather the trigger was an enemy ending their turn next to you, which makes it much easier to figure out how it works, and much less abuseable.



Several of the movement techniques are used during someone else's turn  (interrupts). How does that affect the use of the encounter power? If I  use Two Falling Feathers attack, then will the movement technique be  available for use until the start of my next turn? Or what about using  the movement technique first, must I use the attack during my next turn  or is it wasted? I guess the same can be said about the free action  movement techniques when they aren't used on my turn.





My understanding of the rules on p.217 is that the monk's Full Discipline Movement techniques and attacks are linked, and you can only use one such set per round. Only you used e.g. a Full Discipline attack on your turn and it is still the same round, you cannot use a movement technique from a different Full Discipline until the start of the next round.
So it is important to look at your position in the initiative order.

- If you acted in that round already and used a Full Discipline action, you can only use that discipline's techniques (or a regular move/attack etc) until the end of teh round.

- If you have used no Full Discipline technique the running round, you are free to use any Full discipline free action or Immediate Interrupt during your opponents turn, if the trigger occurs. If you do, you are then commeitted to that discipline (or basic attacks/moves etc) on your turn.

In short: New round, new choice.

What I still have problems understanding is:

The Fallen Needle Move technique is an Immediate Interrupt shift 2 triggered by an Opponent ENDING their move adjacent. What does that mean?

When an opponent (melee only, reach 1) with speed 6 moves three squares to a square next to me and strikes me, I can shift 2 squares away. But can I then no longer be attacked by him? Or can he simply continue his move for two of his remaining three squares and then attack me in the same turn?

My problem is the immediate interrupt, which implies that the interrupting action happens before the trigger. A wizard's shield power activates on a hit, but the shield is there before the hit and turns it into a miss. An interrupt invalidates the trigger, or retcons it, so to speak.

If my shift 2 now happens before the opponent ends his move, he hasn't ended his move and could decide to move on and hit me despite my shift. This would of course make the technique less useful then otherwise, when it would be very powerful indeed.

So: The enemy moves adjacent and hits, I shift away. Am I safe from him, or only if he has not enough movement left?





Monks aren't the first class with interrupt movement- rangers have had it forever, just never at-will.


As for the wording, it specifies they end their movement- what that means is that they've ended the action. They can't 'go back' and use any remaining, unexpended squares, in the same way you can't break up a move action into a bunch of pieces- like, move 2, attack, move 2, shift 1 as a minor, move 2. Doesn't work.


So if they move adjacent to you with a move action, you can use the interrupt to shift away BEFORE they can make any attack as a standard action.

The reson this tends to be confusing is that players really don't usually wait to see if they trigger anything with their movements, so it often becomes "I move adjacent and attack.", despite that actually being "I use a move action to move adjacent." and "I use a standard action to attack."

A *Charge* action is where the real gray area is, because it's one action. However, here we default to the rules of immediate actions- an interrupt happens 'before' the triggering effect, and a reaction happens 'after' the triggering effect.

If an enemy moves adjacent to you and makes an attack as part of a charge, before that action resolves you can shift 2 squares.

Their action then resolves *as normal*- they can't move extra squares, and given that you're two squares away, they probably can't hit you unless they have reach.


Really, this is a powerful option for monks who as a class have no real usage of immediate actions, and is interesting thematically. In a way it is much like Lightning Rush from the Battlemind- an option that presents a new paradigm for the class allowing it to act outside of it's initial parameters while still being balanced by the action economy.


EDIT: To put the effect in perspective, I'm going to lift from MTG.

Basically, when a creature moves adjacent to you using an action, that creature's controller says "I use a move action to move adjacent to you."

Once declared they can't go back and change it, even if something happens before the actio resolves.

They declare it. Then it resolves. An immediate interrupt happens effectively 'before' the action that triggered it finishes resolving, however as the action is already resolving, it cannot be changed.


Does that clear things up any?

Oh Content, where art thou?
How do you use a move action outside of your turn?  

This would only be available if you had not already moved this round - right? 
Actually, the halo thing clears up a question I've been having for like EVER since PH3:  is it a Psionic thing, or is it a PP thing?

It's a Psionic Thing.

It's not your Power Points flying around your head.  It's a manifestation of your Psionic Energy, regardless of whether you do it the Monk way or the PP way.  It also means another thing:  Monks have appeared without them aroudn their heads.  This means that Battleminds, Psions, and Ardents don't necessarily have to have those wizzing around either.

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

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A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

How do you use a move action outside of your turn?  

This would only be available if you had not already moved this round - right? 




Can I get some context with that? What is it you're talking about?
Oh Content, where art thou?
It is ridiculous.  They are ruining good art with these absurd halos.  Once or twice is a novelty - every pic?
How do you use a move action outside of your turn?  

This would only be available if you had not already moved this round - right? 





Can I get some context with that? What is it you're talking about?



Okay. 

Scenario 1

Troll 1 is five squares from the monk with this At Will Power.

Monk's initiative comes up and he moves to stand beside the Troll1 and strikes the troll with this At-Will power.

 Troll 2's initiative comes up and he moves to stand next to the Monk.

Can the Monk now active the immediate interrupt and move away or is he stuck because he already used his move? 
How do you use a move action outside of your turn?  

This would only be available if you had not already moved this round - right? 






Can I get some context with that? What is it you're talking about?




Okay. 

Scenario 1

Troll 1 is five squares from the monk with this At Will Power.

Monk's initiative comes up and he moves to stand beside the Troll1 and strikes the troll with this At-Will power.

 Troll 2's initiative comes up and he moves to stand next to the Monk.

Can the Monk now active the immediate interrupt and move away or is he stuck because he already used his move? 



Actually, in this case it wouldn't be a move action, but an Immediate Interrupt. 

From the Compendium:

Separate Actions: Each of the techniques in a full discipline power requires a separate action to use. The action types are specified in the power. You can use the techniques in whatever order you like during a round, and you can use one of the techniques and not the other during a particular round. 

The number of times you can use a technique during a round is determined by the power’s type—at-will or encounter—and by the actions you have available in that round. For example, you can use the techniques of an at-will full discipline power as many times during a round as you like, provided you have enough of the required actions. If you use an encounter full discipline power, you can use both techniques, but can use each technique only once during that round.

Therefor, in the case you noted, the Move action is not part of the Full Discipline routine, and can be used normally. The II action would therefore be available for use on Troll #2 turn. You would then make your shift, nulifying the Troll's attack (if out of Reach). 

However, since you only get 1 Immediate action per round, you would not have this Full Discipline action available for any subsequent attacks. 
These are gigantic changes to Full Disciplines and break the general rule spelled out in the Monk class description.

The basic rule, from the monk class description:

... Attack techniques usually require a  standard action, and movement techniques are options for your move  actions....You can use only  one full discipline power per round....The number of  times you can use a full discipline power’s techniques during a round  is determined by the power’s type—at-will or encounter—and by the  actions you have available that round. For example, you can use the  techniques of an at-will full discipline power as many times during a  round as you like, provided you have enough of the required actions, but  you can use the techniques of an encounter full discipline power once  during a round.

And now we the following:

Fallen Needle Monk Attack 1
...At-Will...
Movement Technique
Immediate Interrupt Personal
Trigger: An enemy ends its movement adjacent to you
Effect: You shift 2 squares.

1.  It's not a move action.
2.  While it is "At Will," it can only be used once per round because it's an immediate action.
3.  Once you've used the immediate action, this is the only Full Discipline you can use on your turn.

Torrent of Falling Knives Monk Attack 13
...Encounter Full Discipline...
Attack Technique
Standard Action Melee touch
Effect: You shift your speed.
Target: One, two, or three enemies adjacent to you during
your movement
Attack: Dexterity vs. Reflex
Hit: 2d8 + Dexterity modifier damage.
Movement Technique
Free Action Personal
Trigger: An attack hits or misses you
Effect: You shift 1 square after the triggering attack is
resolved.

Now you have a free action that can be taken out of turn, but only once since it is from an encounter powers.  Why is this not an immediate action and the one from At Will power a free action??   Not only that, but it has an embedded move in the attack (the "effect" line) which gives you the ability to move three times in the turn (two move action plus this attack action).

There is another similar power, Storms Fall without Warning Monk Attack 27, plus NONE of these new powers actually have move actions in them, they are all minor, free or immediate actions.

Finally, as a result of these changes, you have some Full Disciplines that will be used (the movement part) out of your turn, requiring you to keep track of it, as that restricts what Full Discipline you can then use during your turn (since you can only use one per round).

This is a gigantic shift.  I wonder if it will get edited before being compiled at the end of the month?  I think these powers need work or the text from the class needs updating.

I like the "out of the box" thinking here, but some thought needs to go into how this balances with other Full Discipline powers.
These are gigantic changes to Full Disciplines and break the general rule spelled out in the Monk class description.

...snip...

1.  It's not a move action.
2.   While it is "At Will," it can only be used once per round because it's  an immediate action.
3.  Once you've used the immediate action, this is the only Full Discipline you can use on your turn.

...snip...

Now  you have a free action that can be taken out of turn, but only once  since it is from an encounter powers.  Why is this not an immediate  action and the one from At Will power a free action??   Not only that,  but it has an embedded move in the attack (the "effect" line) which gives you the ability to move three times in the turn (two move action plus this attack action).

...snip...



    From what you say here, it sounds like you understand the abilities perfectly.  So I'm wondering why you feel they need clarification?  The At-Will is an Immediate Interrupt to prevent you from using the movement portion every time an enemy moves adjacent to you within one round (since At-Will movement actions can be used multiple times as long as they're from the same Full-Discipline, i.e. using Dancing Cobra to make two "speed +2" movements or Five Storms to shift 4 squares in one turn).  The encounter ability is a free action since the encounter power restriction keeps it from being used more than once in a round, and I guess they wanted to elave the interrupt for something else.
These are gigantic changes to Full Disciplines and break the general rule spelled out in the Monk class description.

The basic  rule, from the monk class description:

... Attack techniques usually require a  standard action,  and movement techniques are options for your move  actions....You  can use only  one full discipline power per round....The number of   times you can use a full discipline power’s techniques during a round   is determined by the power’s type—at-will or encounter—and by the   actions you have available that round. For example, you can use the   techniques of an at-will full discipline power as many times during a   round as you like, provided you have enough of the required actions,  but  you can use the techniques of an encounter full discipline power  once  during a round.

And now we the following:

Fallen  Needle Monk Attack 1
...At-Will...
Movement  Technique
Immediate Interrupt Personal
Trigger:  An enemy ends its movement adjacent to you
Effect:  You shift 2 squares.

1.  It's not a move action.
2.   While it is "At Will," it can only be used once per round because it's  an immediate action.
3.  Once you've used the immediate action, this is the only Full Discipline you can use on your turn.

Torrent of Falling Knives Monk  Attack 13
...Encounter  Full Discipline...
Attack Technique
Standard  Action Melee touch
Effect: You shift your  speed.
Target: One, two, or three enemies  adjacent to you during
your movement
Attack:  Dexterity vs. Reflex
Hit: 2d8 + Dexterity  modifier damage.
Movement Technique
Free  Action Personal
Trigger: An attack hits or  misses you
Effect: You shift 1 square  after the triggering attack is
resolved.

Now  you have a free action that can be taken out of turn, but only once  since it is from an encounter powers.  Why is this not an immediate  action and the one from At Will power a free action??   Not only that,  but it has an embedded move in the attack (the "effect" line) which gives you the ability to move three times in the turn (two move action plus this attack action).

There  is another similar power, Storms Fall without Warning Monk Attack 27,  plus NONE of these new powers actually have move actions in them, they are all minor, free or immediate actions.

Finally,  as a result of these changes, you have some Full Disciplines that will  be used (the movement part) out of your turn, requiring you to keep  track of it, as that restricts what Full Discipline you can then use  during your turn (since you can only use one per round).

This is a  gigantic shift.  I wonder if it will get edited before being compiled  at the end of the month?  I think these powers need work or the text from the class needs updating.

I like the "out of the box" thinking here, but some thought needs to go into how this balances with other Full Discipline powers.

I agree w/ Aristus. Nothing needs to be clarified. While the class description might state that, the actual rule is based off the Full Discipline keyword, of which I detailed above. Despite the misnomer, a Movement Technique is in no way limited to Move actions, but rather to the more broad definition of movement noted in the Errata. 


This is no way a gigantic change, but rather using the Full Discipline keyword to it's fullest potential. 
...I agree w/ Aristus. Nothing needs to be clarified. While the class description might state that, the actual rule is based off the Full Discipline keyword, of which I detailed above. Despite the misnomer, a Movement Technique is in no way limited to Move actions, but rather to the more broad definition of movement noted in the Errata. 


This is no way a gigantic change, but rather using the Full Discipline keyword to it's fullest potential. 




How is changing the rule of "... movement techniques are options for your move  actions..." without so stating that it is a change not a fundamental, giant change to how Full Discipline powers work??

The rule changes to "....movement techniques are options for movement..."

Plus, now one needs to track which Full Discipline was used outside your turn during the round so as to be able to use the attack action from that power and because you cannot use any other Full Discipline power during your turn.

This is very cool, but being able to take the movement parts of these powers outside your turn (immediate or free actions) really is a fundamental change in how these powers work.

For a system that is supposed to be simple, it is amazing how much complexity there is, and this change just added even more.    Still, it is very cool, even if more complicated to track.

Also... how often will any of the immediate actions for free action even be available?  In most rounds you will have already used a Full Discipline, so you'd be hosed unless you happen to have used one that has one of these actions attached to it so that it is still available.

I don't think this was well thought-out.
...
Also... how often will any of the immediate actions for free action even be available?  In most rounds you will have already used a Full Discipline, so you'd be hosed unless you happen to have used one that has one of these actions attached to it so that it is still available.

I don't think this was well thought-out.



Perhaps we need a new rule allowing one to use more than one Full Discipline in a round if the Movement Technique is taken during some else's turn.  But that might be rather powerful as it would, in essence, be giving extra utility powers for an extremely low cost.  But maybe not such a low cost - for Encounter powers, at least, attack portion of the power would be lost.

I really like the general idea here, but it needs more thought if it is to work well.




Given that it is the player's responsibility to track this, this isn't that complex. You know what Full Discipline you used, so most likely you have every intention of using that Movement Technique at some point during the current round.

It's not a fundamental change. It works exactly as the keyword details.  It may be an expansion from the powers detailed in PHB3, but it no more complex then the existing Movement Techniques. The description you quote ... movement techniques are options for your move  actions..." 
for move actions is a poor definition for what Movement Techniques consist of. The RAW and RAI need to be derived from the definition of the keyword. So the intention to expand it's functionality to include other action types was already pre-existing. 

Honestly, it's no more complex than playing any other class that uses Immediate Actions on a regular basis, like any type of defender.  

I think that these are pretty well thought out, and offer great flexibility to the monk. 
I do think the full discipline rules need to be rewritten if those rules focus on move actions and we now have rules that use other action types for the movement part of the techniques.

It is also my understanding that the 'once per turn' aspect resets every START of your turn.  As such, you can only use these 'non-move action' movement techniques as follows:

Immediate Interrupts: You can use these on another creature's turn when the trigger occurs IF you did not utilize a DIFFERENT full discipline since the START of your LAST turn UNLESS you used an action point after you used a DIFFERENT full discipline. 

Free Actions: You can use these on your turn or another creature's turn when the trigger occurs IF you did not utilize a DIFFERENT full discipline since the START of your LAST turn UNLESS you used an action point after you used a DIFFERENT full discipline. 

Minor Actions: You can use these on your turn IF you did not utilize a DIFFERENT full discipline since the START of your LAST turn UNLESS you used an action point after you used a DIFFERENT full discipline. 

Exceptions will be created with some funky things, like granted actions, of course.

Is that how everyone else sees it? 
D&D & Boardgames If I have everything I need to run great games for many years without repeating stuff, why do I need to buy anything right now?
I do think the full discipline rules need to be rewritten if those rules focus on move actions and we now have rules that use other action types for the movement part of the techniques.

Exactly my point.

It is also my understanding that the 'once per turn' aspect resets every START of your turn.  As such, you can only use these 'non-move action' movement techniques as follows:

Immediate Interrupts: You can use these on another creature's turn when the trigger occurs IF you did not utilize a DIFFERENT full discipline since the START of your LAST turn UNLESS you used an action point after you used a DIFFERENT full discipline. 

Free Actions: You can use these on your turn or another creature's turn when the trigger occurs IF you did not utilize a DIFFERENT full discipline since the START of your LAST turn UNLESS you used an action point after you used a DIFFERENT full discipline.

Yes, and this gets tricky because you have to track not only which power you've used, but when you've used it.  It's something new that never needed to be tracked before.  Further, more often than not, you won;t get to use these actions because you will have used a different Full Discipline that the one that support the particular free cation or immediate action that you later discover you wanted to use.

Minor Actions: You can use these on your turn IF you did not utilize a DIFFERENT full discipline since the START of your LAST turn UNLESS you used an action point after you used a DIFFERENT full discipline. 

Exceptions will be created with some funky things, like granted actions, of course.

Is that how everyone else sees it? 

Minor actions come out no differently than the move actions do currently, so having them now is a small (but still significant) change.  The major change here is that you get a movement type of action as a minor action plus you still get up to two move actions.  This can be very nice, but does take some work to remain balanced.
Great article, and the powers seem fun.

It seems you can use the immediate interrupt *before* you attack. For example, say you get attacked during a surprise round. You can use the Fallen Needle movement technique to thwart that attack. By doing so, you then commit yourself to using the Fallen Needle attack technique (or a basic attack) later when your turn arrives. Thats fine. Actually its awesome.
Great article, and the powers seem fun.

It seems you can use the immediate interrupt *before* you attack. For example, say you get attacked during a surprise round. You can use the Fallen Needle movement technique to thwart that attack. By doing so, you then commit yourself to using the Fallen Needle attack technique (or a basic attack) later when your turn arrives. Thats fine. Actually its awesome.



Correct, but only if you are not already locked into another Full Discipline technique. Even then, you could use an AP to switch Full Disciplines.
As a DM, I'm going to rule it like this: When you use a full-disciplne power, you may not use a technique from a different full-discipline power until the end of your turn; using an action point on your turn will allow for a second full-discipline power to be used until the end of your current turn.
Incidently, this article presented an interesting approach to mechanics and flavor. Fat Aloisus is the flavor, a vivid personification of how the devs visualize the mechanics. The contrast between the obese physique versus the superhuman speed emphasizes the mind over body quality of Psionics.

Personally, I only care about mechanics, and prefer to customize my own flavors. While the default flavor is vivid, and the mechanics actualize it well, the mechanics themselves remain highly reflavorable. I dont feel any mechanical coercion to use the same flavor that the devs intend. Im happy with this format.

At the same time, Aloisus is an awesome persona, and gives an excellent sense of how to use the mechanics in the context of the narrative of the D&D adventure. Players can play this character as is, or draw inspiration for their own characters, perhaps after running into him and studying under him. I suspect players who are calling for more flavor will be happy with this format too.
As a DM, I'm going to rule it like this: When you use a full-disciplne power, you may not use a technique from a different full-discipline power until the end of your turn; using an action point on your turn will allow for a second full-discipline power to be used until the end of your current turn.



If WotC updated the rules so that it would work like this, that would be great.  It would make those powers available when you need them plus reduce bookkeeping.

Yes, this would be a great rules update.  Essentially, Full Disciplines would "reset" at the end of your turn as opposed to the start of your turn.  Nice.

In this way, you d not need to worry about which Full Disciplines you used during your turn.  Of course, if you used one that was not an At Will, it would be used up, but that's just the way it works today.

WoTC?  You guys reading this?  We need specific exception to the general rule of:

Once Per Round:  Some benefits  are usable once per round. If you use such a benefit, you can’t use it again until the start of your next turn.
I like jedrious' idea so much I sent the following in to WotC:

Please update the glossary entry for full discipline powers as follows:

from

• One per Round: You can use only one full discipline power per round, unless you spend an action point. If you spend an action point to take an extra action, you can switch to a different full discipline power.

to

• One per Round:  You can use only one full discipline power per round, unless you spend an action point. If you spend an action point to take an extra action, you can switch to a different full discipline power. For the purpose of deciding when you can use a technique from a full discipline power, the round ends at the end of your turn.  This is an exception to the general rule on "Once per Round" benefits.

I give credit to "jedrious" (from the WotC discussion boards) for this idea.

Discussion:

This solves an issue with the Class Acts: Monk article where some triggered free actions and immediate actions introduce movement technique usable outside ones' own turn, an entirely new situation that was not well-supported with the existing general rule of:

Once Per Round:  Some benefits  are usable once per  round. If you use such a benefit, you can’t use it again until the start of your next turn.

This general rule would mean that these new powers would create a brand new complication of tracking which full discipline power was used during one's last turn to know if one could be used in-between turns, and if any of the triggered free actions or immediate interrupts would be available - which, of course, would only be triggered if no full discipline had been used during the last turn or if the right full discipline attack had been used so the right movement technique was still available - but only if that had been used after an action point was spent or no action point had been used since action points "switch" which full discipline power is active.

That's all very confusing and needlessly complex when the simple rules update above solves this whole problem and makes these triggered free cation or immediate actions always available if the trigger occurs - following the normal rules for immediate actions, of course.
I like jedrious' idea so much I sent the following in to WotC:

Please update the glossary entry for full discipline powers as follows:

from

• One per Round: You can use only one full discipline power per round, unless you spend an action point. If you spend an action point to take an extra action, you can switch to a different full discipline power.

to

• One per Round:  You can use only one full discipline power per round, unless you spend an action point. If you spend an action point to take an extra action, you can switch to a different full discipline power. For the purpose of deciding when you can use a technique from a full discipline power, the round ends at the end of your turn.  This is an exception to the general rule on "Once per Round" benefits.

I give credit to "jedrious" (from the WotC discussion boards) for this idea.

Discussion:

This solves an issue with the Class Acts: Monk article where some triggered free actions and immediate actions introduce movement technique usable outside ones' own turn, an entirely new situation that was not well-supported with the existing general rule of:

Once Per Round:  Some benefits  are usable once per  round. If you use such a benefit, you can’t use it again until the start of your next turn.

This general rule would mean that these new powers would create a brand new complication of tracking which full discipline power was used during one's last turn to know if one could be used in-between turns, and if any of the triggered free actions or immediate interrupts would be available - which, of course, would only be triggered if no full discipline had been used during the last turn or if the right full discipline attack had been used so the right movement technique was still available - but only if that had been used after an action point was spent or no action point had been used since action points "switch" which full discipline power is active.

That's all very confusing and needlessly complex when the simple rules update above solves this whole problem and makes these triggered free cation or immediate actions always available if the trigger occurs - following the normal rules for immediate actions, of course.



This is a completely unnecessary. It is not confusing at all, provided you understand how the action economy actually works. 

And as for the fallacy of the "difficulty" of keeping track of the full discipline power, you are tracking ONE power, with the details of the movement technique written on the power card. And if you use an AP, then again you are tracking a total of ONE power. 

If a player has difficulty tracking options for interrupts, then, the following classes are not for them: fighter, paladin, swordmage, warden, battlemind, and now the monk.

It not a brand new complication. All this "fix" does is restrict the options that the player has on his next turn, if he uses an out of turn Movement Technique. You would still have to track the technique, just it would be the Attack Technique. Logistically, nothing would be resolved by the change. 

I also don't think any clarification is needed.  Because the full discipline powers and immediate actions are once per round, they "recharge" at the same time, at the beginning of your next turn.  From there, its pretty easy to figure out since its basically following the immediate action rules (with the additonal wrinkle of remembering which full discipline power you used last the previous round):

Since you normally can't spend an action point off turn to change your full discipline power, you can use the movement technique of the fallen needles power independent of the attack technique in only two situations:  during the first round of combat, before your first turn (which shouldn't happen much since you're a Dex-based striker) or after your turn following the usage of a power without the full discipline keyword.  Otherwise, you need to use the fallen needles attack technique first to be able to use the movement technique.

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These are gigantic changes to Full Disciplines and break the general rule spelled out in the Monk class description.

...snip...

1.  It's not a move action.
2.   While it is "At Will," it can only be used once per round because it's  an immediate action.
3.  Once you've used the immediate action, this is the only Full Discipline you can use on your turn.

...snip...

Now  you have a free action that can be taken out of turn, but only once  since it is from an encounter powers.  Why is this not an immediate  action and the one from At Will power a free action??   Not only that,  but it has an embedded move in the attack (the "effect" line) which gives you the ability to move three times in the turn (two move action plus this attack action).

...snip...



    From what you say here, it sounds like you understand the abilities perfectly.  So I'm wondering why you feel they need clarification?  The At-Will is an Immediate Interrupt to prevent you from using the movement portion every time an enemy moves adjacent to you within one round (since At-Will movement actions can be used multiple times as long as they're from the same Full-Discipline, i.e. using Dancing Cobra to make two "speed +2" movements or Five Storms to shift 4 squares in one turn).  The encounter ability is a free action since the encounter power restriction keeps it from being used more than once in a round, and I guess they wanted to elave the interrupt for something else.



Catching up on this article, but the At-Will is the only power that I see being worth taking in this set.

Using one of the Movement Techniques on an encounter power as an interrupt would use that complete power for the Encounter.  You'd be giving up the attack capability.  I guess you can look at it as offering increased flexibility for the character (you don't need to use, it, it is your choice), but by the same token, the attacks don't let you combine a movement and attack on your turn, thereby limiting your flexibility.




Catching up on this article, but the At-Will is the only power that I see being worth taking in this set.

I totally disagree. My Monk has been using Fallen Hammer in Repose and loves it and its minor action movement technique. If he gets high enough level, I'm definitely going to replace it with Fall of the Anvil's Master.

Using one of the Movement Techniques on an encounter power as an interrupt would use that complete power for the Encounter.  You'd be giving up the attack capability... the attacks don't let you combine a movement and attack on your turn, thereby limiting your flexibility.

That's not how it works. You can use both the attack technique and movement technique of all of these encounter powers. The way that it works is that you use the attack technique on your own turn, setting yourself up in that full discipline power until the start of your next turn, so you can then use the free/interrupt/reaction movement technique any time before then. You don't have to give up the attack technique to use the movement technique unless you want to and didn't use any full discipline powers during your last turn.

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 I figure this thread has long been dead. I've been making a monk character but all the movement techniques from the fallen needle have been replaced with the fallen hammer repose  movement . least in the compendium and the character builder. Ideas on if this is just a mistake?
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